Tier System for Classes

[Alastar]

They are not shadow hand weapons, and are not finessable weapons either.  So no, and you cant have +5 shadow hand potions either.

Not to mention running out of ammo.

Craven would still work.

And a wand of wraithstrike is possible in a wand chamber ya know.

[ninjarabbit]

The disadvantages to the potion-throwing rogue is that it gets expensive (10 gps for acid, 20 gps for alchemist's fire, 25 gps for holy water) and the fact that you have to carry around all those flasks since they weight 1 lb each since str tends to be a dump stat for rogues.

[Sunic_Flames]

They are not shadow hand weapons, and are not finessable weapons either.  So no, and you cant have +5 shadow hand potions either.

Not to mention running out of ammo.

Craven would still work.

And a wand of wraithstrike is possible in a wand chamber ya know.

Ok, so no dex and no str obviously. Wis and Int?

HHH = 120 flasks. Adds 5 pounds to your encumbrance.

Wraithstrike works, but you're still meleeing (at a -2 to hit, or more which may not matter but still) which means you get smacked easily (this does matter).

[bayar]

"Wait!  Ugg help you!"
"And what do you do?"
"I hit things really hard!"
*casters look at each other*
"Bets on whether he can kill a Balor?  I can summon one for the lulz."
"50kgp on the balor"

Oh god, I  'd alot at this.

Tier 6: Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise. DMs will need to work hard to make encounters that this sort of character can contribute in with their mechanical abilities. Will often feel worthless unless the character is seriously powergamed beyond belief, and even then won't be terribly impressive. Needs to fight enemies of lower than normal CR. Class is often completely unsynergized or with almost no abilities of merit. Avoid allowing PCs to play these characters.

Examples: CW Samurai, Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner

Please explain the bolded parts. Commoners have handle animal as a class skill. They can train a shitload of riding dogs for combat purposes or to gain more gold. Spot and listen are class skills so with a high WIS they will be able to hear the cat sneaking behind them (and run before they get killed by it). Yeah, they can be MAD abit, but with max ranks in a certain Craft skill, they would outperform fighters in combat. Heck, even outperform barbarians in damage output 

[Squirrelloid]

"Hi, I'm likable McFacey and also Sneaky McSneaky, i spot traps without even trying, and I can use any magic item, so if you need someone to use a wand or something.  Oh yeah, and my expected DPR is 200 damage."
"Hmmm... that's not so bad."
"We'll give you a trial run, see how you do."

I'm sorry kid. Your trial run was good, but then we found this other guy who can do everything you can do, but he replaced 200 DPR with Power Word Kill, Dominate Monster, Mass Hold monster, foresight, and Time stop, all while automatically overcoming monster spell resistance.

Beguilers ftw!

And, yeah, Bards.  Hmm.  If they're not going into Sublime Chord, then they suck.  If they're half-elves and are Bard 5/Mindbender 1/AAA Y/Sublime Chord 1/BBB X, then, yeah.  Then they're on par with a Sorcerer, but no longer really bards.

There are ways to make Bards totally awesome, like the half elf substitution level - 'the balor has to make a Will save DC 52 or "chill"' and all that.  So I suppose I have to give bards some respect.

I think Beguilers are underrated.  I'd take one over a sorceror any day in normal play, and they can pick up a few spells off their list, which means a lot of stupid wizard tricks are ultimately available to them, and about as painful as doing said stupid tricks as a sorceror.  (Ok, maybe a little more painful if you have to go through shadow spell intermediates).  Yes, beguilers are totally awesome.

Potion thrower rogues:
Its called a handy haversack.  Lightweight, easy to get exactly what you want from, and potions come in all elements for your convenience!  (also, your SA is the same type as the damage you dealt, ie, fire/acid/cold/lightning).  And you have rapid fire, because you can, which nets you an additional attack (not included in the DPR estimate, because I'd forgotten and wasn't explicitly trying to optimize the heck out of this - I mean, I can get more than 10d6 SA too, and that's all I was counting).

The basic build works with Rogue 20 right out of the PHB (alchemists fire and acid flasks).  You snag a handysack and later a ring of blinking (greater blinking eventually with non-core materials).  And its pretty good at rogue 20.  But you can do much better with creative PrCing and multiclassing.

[JaronK]

Please explain the bolded parts. Commoners have handle animal as a class skill. They can train a shitload of riding dogs for combat purposes or to gain more gold. Spot and listen are class skills so with a high WIS they will be able to hear the cat sneaking behind them (and run before they get killed by it). Yeah, they can be MAD abit, but with max ranks in a certain Craft skill, they would outperform fighters in combat. Heck, even outperform barbarians in damage output 

Well, put it this way.  Commoners don't come with their own real area of expertise.  Now, they can do the riding dog thing, but they're no better than anyone else who has Handle Animal.

Though I have to wonder about this outperforming barbarians in damage output...

But anyway, in general you can see that Commoners should be in the lowest tier.  If optimized, they can be pretty scary (at least, scary for the weakest class out there).  The big one is of course infested with chickens.

JaronK

[JaronK]

A big issue with the potion throwing rogue concept is that it relies heavily on sneak attack without using flanking (since you can't do that while throwing).  That's not easy to do at all.  Getting full attack actions with the enemy's dex denied to AC is not an easy thing to do especially when those enemies start having immunities or blindsight... and you can't put a Truedeath crystal on a potion.  Plus the gear dependency is huge... what if you're not near a major town for a while?  You'll run out quick.

JaronK

[Squirrelloid]

A big issue with the potion throwing rogue concept is that it relies heavily on sneak attack without using flanking (since you can't do that while throwing).  That's not easy to do at all.  Getting full attack actions with the enemy's dex denied to AC is not an easy thing to do especially when those enemies start having immunities or blindsight... and you can't put a Truedeath crystal on a potion.  Plus the gear dependency is huge... what if you're not near a major town for a while?  You'll run out quick.

JaronK

Ring of Blinking (and later Ring of Greater Blinking) make this trivial, and works unless they can see the ethereal.

The wizard can create more if necessary using major creation.  Or you can, you know, teleport back to town, restock, teleport back to where you were.

This is D+D, we don't go away from civilization for months at a time.  The cleric, druid, and wizard find out who the bad guy is, scry him, call everyone into the room, buff casting begins, and then we teleport to him and stab him in the face.  With spells.

[Prime32]

This is D+D, we don't go away from civilization for months at a time.  The cleric, druid, and wizard find out who the bad guy is, scry him, call everyone into the room, buff casting begins, and then we teleport to him and stab him in the face.  With spells.

I wondered what Black Mage was doing wrong... I prefer King Dedede's method, though (cookie for the reference)

[NineInchNall]

The wizard can create more if necessary using major creation.  Or you can, you know, teleport back to town, restock, teleport back to where you were.

This is D+D, we don't go away from civilization for months at a time.  The cleric, druid, and wizard find out who the bad guy is, scry him, call everyone into the room, buff casting begins, and then we teleport to him and stab him in the face.  With spells.

You would believe how many people have told me that's a pussy way to play.

Oh, right.  You've read Threads that Make Us Laugh, etc.  Never mind.

[JaronK]

Ring of Blinking (and later Ring of Greater Blinking) make this trivial, and works unless they can see the astral.

But gives you a 20% mischance... and doesn't Trueseeing see through this?

The wizard can create more if necessary using major creation.

Actually if you look at the spell, it only creates something made of a single substance, which must be a vegetable, mineral, or metal.  Potions probably don't count.  So... not really.  It works for poisons, but not potions.

  Or you can, you know, teleport back to town, restock, teleport back to where you were.

This is D+D, we don't go away from civilization for months at a time.  The cleric, druid, and wizard find out who the bad guy is, scry him, call everyone into the room, buff casting begins, and then we teleport to him and stab him in the face.  With spells.

First off, you're assuming that whatever's happening isn't urgent.  You don't need to be away for months to run out of potions.  Heck, I've made throwers that launched 60+ shots in a single round.  Your stockpile is going to run out REALLY fast.  You may not have the opportunity to just teleport away.  Think about it... what level spells were those two teleports?  Are you sure you're only needing a restock during normal buisiness hours?  How long will it take you to find enough potions?  There's a pretty heavy cost in time, money, or spell slots (and maybe all three) that you're hand waving away.

I've seen these potion throwing Rogues in action, and they tend to fall apart due to the variety of technical details that seem small when you build the character and yet are very big in action.  Resources aren't always there for free, especially in lower levels when those two teleports just drained your Wizard of most of his highest level spell slots.

It's something I've noticed about most folks who talk about Rogues being really powerful... they always assume tons of resources are always available.  That's not always the case, certainly not in most (if not all) of the games I've played.  And let's face it... if that Wizard really did have time to scry and figure out his enemy, then teleport to town and back... he's got enough prep time that he didn't need you there anyway.

JaronK

[Braithwaite]

Ring of Blinking (and later Ring of Greater Blinking) make this trivial, and works unless they can see the astral.

Just for my benefit, is there a convenient way to do this without the ring of Blinking? I'm in a game where they are banned you see, and I like this idea.

[dman11235]

Even those aren't very good at it.

My tricks for constant hides: Fly By Attack with Manyshot and Shadow Creature in an area of darkness.  Or Dark.

Same thing, but with one Warlock level: those feats in DotU that require Darkness as a (sp)?  Don't specify how you get it.  So the darkness invocation allows you to take them.  Deeper Darkness at will is great here.

[Squirrelloid]

Ring of Blinking (and later Ring of Greater Blinking) make this trivial, and works unless they can see the astral.

But gives you a 20% mischance... and doesn't Trueseeing see through this?

Hence greater blinking upgrade.  And no, trueseeing does not stop it, because you have to see ethereal and invisible to fully negate it.

The wizard can create more if necessary using major creation.

Actually if you look at the spell, it only creates something made of a single substance, which must be a vegetable, mineral, or metal.  Potions probably don't count.  So... not really.  It works for poisons, but not potions.

  Or you can, you know, teleport back to town, restock, teleport back to where you were.

This is D+D, we don't go away from civilization for months at a time.  The cleric, druid, and wizard find out who the bad guy is, scry him, call everyone into the room, buff casting begins, and then we teleport to him and stab him in the face.  With spells.

First off, you're assuming that whatever's happening isn't urgent.  You don't need to be away for months to run out of potions.  Heck, I've made throwers that launched 60+ shots in a single round.  Your stockpile is going to run out REALLY fast.  You may not have the opportunity to just teleport away.  Think about it... what level spells were those two teleports?  Are you sure you're only needing a restock during normal buisiness hours?  How long will it take you to find enough potions?  There's a pretty heavy cost in time, money, or spell slots (and maybe all three) that you're hand waving away.

The rogue should always be stocked for a full day's worth of adventuring.  The fact that no one ever actually adventures for a full day is irrelevant.

And seriously, teleporting right to the BBEG is a lot faster than wandering around aimlessly, fighting minions and random encounters.  So we do our homework, and kick his ass directly, and cut out his middlemen. 

I've seen these potion throwing Rogues in action, and they tend to fall apart due to the variety of technical details that seem small when you build the character and yet are very big in action.  Resources aren't always there for free, especially in lower levels when those two teleports just drained your Wizard of most of his highest level spell slots.

It's something I've noticed about most folks who talk about Rogues being really powerful... they always assume tons of resources are always available.  That's not always the case, certainly not in most (if not all) of the games I've played.  And let's face it... if that Wizard really did have time to scry and figure out his enemy, then teleport to town and back... he's got enough prep time that he didn't need you there anyway.

JaronK

How many potions can a rogue fit in a haversack?  A lot.  I could compute it, but its mind-bogglingly large.  How many will he use in any given combat?  Maybe 40?  I'm not really seeing the supply issue.

[Squirrelloid]

Ring of Blinking (and later Ring of Greater Blinking) make this trivial, and works unless they can see the astral.

Just for my benefit, is there a convenient way to do this without the ring of Blinking? I'm in a game where they are banned you see, and I like this idea.

Be able to cast blink?

[JaronK]

How many potions can a rogue fit in a haversack?  A lot.  I could compute it, but its mind-bogglingly large.  How many will he use in any given combat?  Maybe 40?  I'm not really seeing the supply issue.

40 in a combat?  I dunno, I'm usually firing that many per round.  Plus, you were getting ones of different types, but monsters (I've found) are often somewhat clumped, type wise.  If one quarter of your potions deal fire damage, a quarter deal acid, a quarter cold, and a quarter electrical, and you fight a clump of enemies that are all electric and fire immune, now you've only got half a stash to work with.

You're also assuming you know exactly what you want to do in advance with prep time and have a tier 1 caster with you.  In my experience, when that is the case, the Tier 1 caster really doesn't need you to be there.  It's only the times when you're not fully prepped that he could use the help.

JaronK

[bayar]

How many potions can a rogue fit in a haversack?  A lot.  I could compute it, but its mind-bogglingly large.  How many will he use in any given combat?  Maybe 40?  I'm not really seeing the supply issue.

40 in a combat?  I dunno, I'm usually firing that many per round.  Plus, you were getting ones of different types, but monsters (I've found) are often somewhat clumped, type wise.  If one quarter of your potions deal fire damage, a quarter deal acid, a quarter cold, and a quarter electrical, and you fight a clump of enemies that are all electric and fire immune, now you've only got half a stash to work with.

You're also assuming you know exactly what you want to do in advance with prep time and have a tier 1 caster with you.  In my experience, when that is the case, the Tier 1 caster really doesn't need you to be there.  It's only the times when you're not fully prepped that he could use the help.

JaronK

Dont forget holy water, axiomatic water, sleep potions, tanglefoot bags...

[JaronK]

Yeah... those potion throwing Rogues always seem to rely on rediculous amounts of available gear, and in my experience, that's just not how it works unless the DM is specifically trying to make your life easier.  Usually, the evil ritual is about to go off or the enemy army is already on the march or whatever, and you've got to act NOW... you can't wait around for the town potion maker to churn out thousands of potions, nor is there a friendly neighborhood PotionMart that carries Costco sized pallets of potions all the time.  Personally, I'd prefer something closer to Halfling Rogue 10/Master Thrower 5/Whatever Else 5 for the bouncing shots and whatnot... those guys can easily hit 32 shots a round without breaking a sweat, and they'll want to make good use of thrown weapons.

I'm not sure if potions technically count as "Throw Weapons."  As such, I don't think you can take Weapon Focus: Thrown Potion, which means none of the Master Thrower tricks will work with them.

JaronK

[Squirrelloid]

Yeah... those potion throwing Rogues always seem to rely on rediculous amounts of available gear, and in my experience, that's just not how it works unless the DM is specifically trying to make your life easier.  Usually, the evil ritual is about to go off or the enemy army is already on the march or whatever, and you've got to act NOW... you can't wait around for the town potion maker to churn out thousands of potions, nor is there a friendly neighborhood PotionMart that carries Costco sized pallets of potions all the time.  Personally, I'd prefer something closer to Halfling Rogue 10/Master Thrower 5/Whatever Else 5 for the bouncing shots and whatnot... those guys can easily hit 32 shots a round without breaking a sweat, and they'll want to make good use of thrown weapons.

i refuse to believe you can buy a magic item worth 200kgp and not buy 10kgp worth of non-magical alchemical potions. 

Also, 1 casting of major creation won't make the contents and the flask, but it could make the contents.  Or two castings for contents + flask.  And every time I say a spell I could just as easily mean wand or staff of it, as the potion-throwing rogue really doesn't have much to spend his wealth on - once you've got a ring of greater blinking, a handy haversack or two, and a dex+6 item, you're just grabbing general utility items. 

As to the number per combat, at some point all the opposition is dead and you're done.  High level combats also have an average duration of 1 round. 

And if nothing else, your friend the wizard is going to like having you around because (1) your initiative check is higher than his is, (2) you will kill the enemy wizard before he gets to act.  Ie, you're an initiative insurance policy.

Finally, what's with this 'that's not how it works in your experience' nonsense?  There's lots of things we know are true in the rules that never work that way in practice.  Like chain-binding efreets and having them wish for rings of infinite wishes for you, or candle of invocation cheese, or 150 caster level Blasphemy out of a staff to kill a god.  Have you seriously ever seen any of that?  And that's just core.  A lot of the things you are assuming are true by your categorization of the Tier 1 classes are stuff that I doubt most people have ever experienced in a game because they were thought exercises dreamed up on CO or elsewhere.  Stop holding a double standard where you only accept 'typical game' conditions for one class and 'pure RAW' for another.

[bayar]

Somehow this has reminded me of the Flying carpet+Alchemist's fire combination...Carpet bombing FTW.