Author Topic: Tier System for Classes  (Read 616246 times)

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #640 on: July 25, 2009, 07:49:37 PM »
Its interesting you should say "if we stick to wbl" cause yes that works but...
 There are many people who could write a treatise on eqipment optimization and make it seem as though any class it a tier or two higher that what it is.
I mean does anyone remember Sir giacomo's "joker monk" over at gitp?
  

Oh my freaking lord... that was rough.  That post was so...  it defies description.
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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #641 on: July 25, 2009, 10:58:52 PM »
I saw it when it wasn't locked, does that count?

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #642 on: July 26, 2009, 12:48:33 AM »
Heheh, yeah.  You "were there".

Kaelik

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #643 on: July 26, 2009, 12:58:03 AM »
I was a primary contributor in the thread. I don't think I was banned based on it, but I can't remember.

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #644 on: July 27, 2009, 07:37:48 PM »
Holy snot, I missed some fireworks  :D

And if someone could help me with ... what does WBL mean?
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Ditch the Commoner because there's no reason for it, it just happens to be in the game, like Chickens.
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Btw - what the original erudite gets, any of the other 3 erudites can get with psychic reformation.
So yes, the original erudite is replaceable by one 4th level power, at 7th level.
Still gets that 3hd and ( Fly or 5/- dr ) at 1st level.

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #645 on: July 27, 2009, 07:40:03 PM »
Wealth By Level.

lans

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #646 on: July 29, 2009, 02:45:06 AM »
What is assumed to be allowed for classes by the tier system? I understand they are minimally optimized builds, but is Erudite assumed to have mantles or spell to power? In the locked thread a case was made for it to be tier 2 due to getting the important stuff a level later than the sorcerer, and the important stuff seemed to be from spell to power. So is the website material is assumed to be allowed as are the completes, and books of vile darkness and exalted deeds were assumed to disallowed.
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #647 on: July 29, 2009, 03:20:36 AM »
What is assumed to be allowed for classes by the tier system?

Roughly speaking, I tried to go with average games that class would be played in, to the best of my ability.  Luckily most classes don't change THAT much with different numbers of books... a Wizard is still awesome even if he's only got core, but adding more books makes him stronger.  I find that more books just tends to widen a lot of the gaps.  As such, there's not much of an assumption of availability, other than that it's the same as the other classes in the party (so I'm assuming that a Core only Wizard is played with a Core only Fighter... it would skew things if you had an all books Fighter in a party with a Core Wizard, but that's rare).  Remember, I'm doing this based on the interactions of the classes in the party, so everyone's ranked as though they're in the same group and thus have the same rules.

Now, some classes (like the Erudite) change dramatically based on books allowed.  The Binder is actually a great example... web material makes them far stronger.  In that case, they're listed twice (with web material, and without).  Erudite isn't simply because I don't know the class well enough to say for certain.

But when it matters, assume Core + Completes + the book they're in, and usually any web material that's specific to the class.  Classes that depend on more than that get ranked a little lower because they will sometimes not have what they need.

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I understand they are minimally optimized builds

Incorrect.  They are equally optimized builds.  You asked me earlier what minimally optimized meant for me, and I answered the question, but that's not how the Tier system is built.  I just assume that in a given party the levels of optimization will be relatively similar, so if you've got a DMM Persistant Cleric he's probably with a Lion Totem Shock Trooper Barbarian.  When I say heavy optimization raises you up a Tier, that means heavy optimization compared to the rest of your group. 

That's precisely the problem with the Truenamer... while the relation between a Healbot Cleric and a Fighter with poorly chosen feats is roughly equivalent to a DMM Cleric and a heavily optimized archer Fighter, the relation between an optimized Cleric and an optimized Truenamer is nothing like the relation between an unoptimized Cleric and an unoptimized Truenamer, for example.  While I can say with confidence that a Factotum is going to be about as strong as a Beguiler or a Crusader given equivalent player skill and optimization across the entire spectrum of optimization, I just can't say that about the Truenamer and any other classes.  Weakly optimized they're basically Commoners, while a more optimized one is roughly like a Warlock (spam powers all day long, but powers are VERY limited and usually a bit weak for their level).

JaronK

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #648 on: July 29, 2009, 05:04:49 AM »
How would a class that had as it's top option for combat, the following spells (using the warmage casting mechanic and getting utility on the side) rank?

1: Color Spray+Silent Image
2: Glitterdust
3: Dispel Magic+Haste+Hold Person
4: Charm Monster+Solid Fog
5: Dominate Person+Hold Monster
6: Greater Dispel Magic
7: Power Word Blind+Mass Hold Person
8: Power Word Stun+Scintellating Pattern
9: Time Stop+Dominate Monster

At spell levels 1-5 it's tossing out standard wizard combat spells, but instead of having to prepare gets the warmage mechanic and utility spells as well.

Assume that the class also gets better armor, HD, and skill points than wizard.  Better than a sorcerer for at least the first ten levels, right?

Kuroimaken

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #649 on: July 29, 2009, 08:45:22 AM »
How would a class that had as it's top option for combat, the following spells (using the warmage casting mechanic and getting utility on the side) rank?

1: Color Spray+Silent Image
2: Glitterdust
3: Dispel Magic+Haste+Hold Person
4: Charm Monster+Solid Fog
5: Dominate Person+Hold Monster
6: Greater Dispel Magic
7: Power Word Blind+Mass Hold Person
8: Power Word Stun+Scintellating Pattern
9: Time Stop+Dominate Monster

At spell levels 1-5 it's tossing out standard wizard combat spells, but instead of having to prepare gets the warmage mechanic and utility spells as well.

Assume that the class also gets better armor, HD, and skill points than wizard.  Better than a sorcerer for at least the first ten levels, right?

Better than a sorcerer, more likely than not yes, but not better than a wizard. This is because the wizard doesn't only win inside combat - he pretty much wins all the time outside it as well. Absurd flexibility is the source of much of the wizard's power.

For the record, HD is of greatest significance at early levels (particularly 1-5), as is armor. After a while, its importance is diminished, and it's much preferrable to stack miss chances instead (where spells excel. This is why ToB classes tend to be better than a regular Fighter - they either have the ability to gain miss chances from stances, strikes and whatnot or mitigate damage, particularly the Crusader).

Skill points are a different beast to judge, though. It IS possible to have a reasonably good pool of skill points but a VERY sucky list of class skills (I suppose the best example here would probably be the Barbarian). Furthermore, skills tend to be superceded by spells later (or not even that much later. Knock beats the pants off Open Lock, and it's a second level spell...), unless they can do do something spells cannot, which is very often not the case.
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #650 on: July 29, 2009, 12:13:16 PM »
How would a class that had as it's top option for combat, the following spells (using the warmage casting mechanic and getting utility on the side) rank?

1: Color Spray+Silent Image
2: Glitterdust
3: Dispel Magic+Haste+Hold Person
4: Charm Monster+Solid Fog
5: Dominate Person+Hold Monster
6: Greater Dispel Magic
7: Power Word Blind+Mass Hold Person
8: Power Word Stun+Scintellating Pattern
9: Time Stop+Dominate Monster

At spell levels 1-5 it's tossing out standard wizard combat spells, but instead of having to prepare gets the warmage mechanic and utility spells as well.

Assume that the class also gets better armor, HD, and skill points than wizard.  Better than a sorcerer for at least the first ten levels, right?

No, I don't think that's better, just from what you've shown me (I think you're leaving out a lot).  Sure, those are nice blasty combat spells... but if all you do is hurt your enemy, are you really much better than a standard Barbarian Charger?  I mean sure, you add in some battlefield control, but can't kill quite as easily... and I just don't see much utility.  The real question here is if this theoretical class also has options for doing things out of combat.  Remember, Tier 2 means you can absolutely break the game, not just win average combats easily.  Sorcerers are Tier 2 not only because of what they can do in combat, but also what they can do with a bit of downtime, and the only solid utility spells I see there are Dominate Monster and Charm Monster. 

So yeah, without seeing the rest of the list, it doesn't look stronger than a Sorcerer right now, especially since a Sorcerer could take all those spells and also Magecraft, Alter Self, Shrink Item, Shivering Touch, Explosive Runes, Wings of Flurry, and Polymorph, and then PrC into Mage of the Arcane Order or Shadowcraft Mage, or use Runestaffs, to effectively expand their spell list massively.  And while having better HD and armor is cute, that's hardly what matters.  But maybe if you filled in the utility list a bit more I could judge better, because you mentioned utility spells but didn't list them.

JaronK

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #651 on: July 29, 2009, 03:37:10 PM »
How would a class that had as it's top option for combat, the following spells (using the warmage casting mechanic and getting utility on the side) rank?

1: Color Spray+Silent Image
2: Glitterdust
3: Dispel Magic+Haste+Hold Person
4: Charm Monster+Solid Fog
5: Dominate Person+Hold Monster
6: Greater Dispel Magic
7: Power Word Blind+Mass Hold Person
8: Power Word Stun+Scintellating Pattern
9: Time Stop+Dominate Monster

At spell levels 1-5 it's tossing out standard wizard combat spells, but instead of having to prepare gets the warmage mechanic and utility spells as well.

Assume that the class also gets better armor, HD, and skill points than wizard.  Better than a sorcerer for at least the first ten levels, right?

No, I don't think that's better, just from what you've shown me (I think you're leaving out a lot).  Sure, those are nice blasty combat spells... but if all you do is hurt your enemy, are you really much better than a standard Barbarian Charger?  I mean sure, you add in some battlefield control, but can't kill quite as easily... and I just don't see much utility.  The real question here is if this theoretical class also has options for doing things out of combat.  Remember, Tier 2 means you can absolutely break the game, not just win average combats easily.  Sorcerers are Tier 2 not only because of what they can do in combat, but also what they can do with a bit of downtime, and the only solid utility spells I see there are Dominate Monster and Charm Monster. 

So yeah, without seeing the rest of the list, it doesn't look stronger than a Sorcerer right now, especially since a Sorcerer could take all those spells and also Magecraft, Alter Self, Shrink Item, Shivering Touch, Explosive Runes, Wings of Flurry, and Polymorph, and then PrC into Mage of the Arcane Order or Shadowcraft Mage, or use Runestaffs, to effectively expand their spell list massively.  And while having better HD and armor is cute, that's hardly what matters.  But maybe if you filled in the utility list a bit more I could judge better, because you mentioned utility spells but didn't list them.

JaronK
Those are just the default combat spells to use.  I deliberately avoided utility.  The class is called beguiler (PH2).

Kaelik

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #652 on: July 29, 2009, 06:11:47 PM »
Those are just the default combat spells to use.  I deliberately avoided utility.  The class is called beguiler (PH2).

Beguiler. So stealthy you don't know it's there even when reading a class description.

RobbyPants

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #653 on: July 29, 2009, 09:16:24 PM »
Most of that spell list said beguiler to me, but I didn't realize they had access to Time Stop.  It's one of those classes I'd like to play, but never got the chance.
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #654 on: July 29, 2009, 11:41:57 PM »
I thought that might be what you were going for, but I don't know why you said it... the Beguiler is already ranked, and I've in fact played both as and with one multiple times.  They're a very solid class, quite good at what they do (namely, fill the skillmonkey role while still providing very useful combat support).  They're not gamebreaking though (unless you throw in SCM or something).  That's why they're Tier 3.  So what was the point?  Why try to obfuscate things to ask about an already ranked class?

Remember, Tier 3 doesn't mean it's bad in any way.  In fact, it means it's very good at what it does... just not in a game breaking sort of way.  Sure, spamming Glitterdust is very effective, but it's not actually gamebreaking.  Meanwhile, a Sorcerer can easily pick one of the two spells you've listed at every level and still throw in the really game breaking spells too, which is why it's Tier 2.  And certainly, the Beguiler doesn't get any downtime utility spells on par with Planar Binding, PAO, or really even Teleport. 

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Kaelik

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #655 on: July 30, 2009, 02:31:04 AM »
I thought that might be what you were going for, but I don't know why you said it... the Beguiler is already ranked, and I've in fact played both as and with one multiple times.  They're a very solid class, quite good at what they do (namely, fill the skillmonkey role while still providing very useful combat support).  They're not gamebreaking though (unless you throw in SCM or something).  That's why they're Tier 3.  So what was the point?  Why try to obfuscate things to ask about an already ranked class?

Remember, Tier 3 doesn't mean it's bad in any way.  In fact, it means it's very good at what it does... just not in a game breaking sort of way.  Sure, spamming Glitterdust is very effective, but it's not actually gamebreaking.  Meanwhile, a Sorcerer can easily pick one of the two spells you've listed at every level and still throw in the really game breaking spells too, which is why it's Tier 2.  And certainly, the Beguiler doesn't get any downtime utility spells on par with Planar Binding, PAO, or really even Teleport.

JaronK this is a joke. When presented with the Beguiler's combat spell list you and another poster said that if he had out of combat utility he would be on par with the Sorcerer. We know the Beguiler has utility.

Now you whine about obfuscation, even though the reason is obvious. Beguilers are Tier 2. But if we ask, "Beguiler" you say Tier 3. If we ask "Combat spell list, plus assume utility" you say with utility Tier 2.

Then you move to hide behind your ridiculous "gamebreaking" logic. People don't break the game. No one has ever in the history of D&D played a broken game. Polymorph doesn't need to break the game, just like using Dominate Person and Dominate Monster doesn't need to break the game. But yes, having a giant following of characters and monsters that are your bitch and individually have the same CR as you is enough to qualify for breaking the game.

You have some sort of obsession with maximum bullshit potential. You even pointed to Sorcerers being able to Shadowcraft Mage as one of the reasons they are better than this fictional class that turns about to be Beguiler, one of the 3 Shadowcraft Mage base entries.

Wizards aren't Tier 1 because they can Wish loop, or because they can Polymorph Any Object, or because they can break the game eight other ways. They are Tier 1 because they are a really good class that can do all sorts of non game breaking things at once. Sorcerers are Tier 2 because they can do one or two of those non gamebreaking things. You know who else can do one or two of those non gamebreaking things? Beguilers.

Dread Necromancers can actually become Pun Pun without resorting to Pazuzu. They have a class ability at level 12 called, "Win D&D". Maximum breakage potential isn't important.

A Beguiler can spend a couple feats on Arcane Disciple Rune and Renewal Domains and be able to PAO and Planar Bind, and get a crap ton of useful spells besides. He can spend two feats to design his own domain and pick one "gamebreaking" spell per spell level. He can make it the fucking Polymorph Domain that gives Alter Self, Polymorph, Draconic Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, Shapechange, and fill the gaps with crappy Aspect spells starting with Aspect of the Wolf at level 1, and working up.

Heck, he can just buy a Runestaff of Magic Circle, Dimensional Anchor, and Planar Binding and call it "Staff of Efreeti's Wishes" and recoup the cost of the item in a pile of gold. And that's not even getting into Wishing for items.

Breaking D&D is not hard. It is pathetically easy. If your Tier system measures nothing more than game breaking potential or ease, please admit that so that we can all ignore you. Also reduce it to Tier 1, 2, 3. One is those that can cast spells and Efreet wish themselves. 2 is those that have UMD as a class skill. 3 is those that can't do either. If it on the other hand measures actual games of D&D that don't break, you can then have a series of tiers that represent approximate non broken game potential, and that can explain why Sorcerers who can break the game faster easier and better are lower Tier than Clerics and Druids who are better when the game is not broken, but harder to break.

dark_samuari

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #656 on: July 30, 2009, 04:13:37 AM »
Breaking D&D is not hard. It is pathetically easy. If your Tier system measures nothing more than game breaking potential or ease, please admit that so that we can all ignore you. Also reduce it to Tier 1, 2, 3. One is those that can cast spells and Efreet wish themselves. 2 is those that have UMD as a class skill. 3 is those that can't do either. If it on the other hand measures actual games of D&D that don't break, you can then have a series of tiers that represent approximate non broken game potential, and that can explain why Sorcerers who can break the game faster easier and better are lower Tier than Clerics and Druids who are better when the game is not broken, but harder to break.

I always tried to perceive the teir system in terms of versatility, adaptability and role manipulation. The wizard is tier one because, with enough prep time, can fill in for any adventuring role (and perhaps better a role's originally intended class). But when we come onto the beguiler (which is an extremely well designed class) we can take feats and equipment but in it's essence the beguiler is an enchanter/illusionist. And while potent in that domain the class is designed and intended to excel in that specific party niche.

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #657 on: July 30, 2009, 04:59:35 AM »
I always tried to perceive the teir system in terms of versatility, adaptability and role manipulation. The wizard is tier one because, with enough prep time, can fill in for any adventuring role (and perhaps better a role's originally intended class). But when we come onto the beguiler (which is an extremely well designed class) we can take feats and equipment but in it's essence the beguiler is an enchanter/illusionist. And while potent in that domain the class is designed and intended to excel in that specific party niche.
Could you name one role that wouldn't be better filled by a beguiler?

Healing: Not a role.
BC/SoL (action denial overall): Hello, the entire beguiler spell list.
Tanking: Not a role.
Rogue stuff: Does it better than a rogue.

Roles are bullshit and you insult everyone reading your post by lying to us and saying you think they aren't.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 05:08:03 AM by The Lurker »

dark_samuari

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #658 on: July 30, 2009, 06:08:39 AM »
Could you name one role that wouldn't be better filled by a beguiler?

By who, a wizard or sorcerer? Why don't we start off with summoning or buffing.

Roles are bullshit and you insult everyone reading your post by lying to us and saying you think they aren't.

I'm sorry, I thought Dungeons & Dragons was a role playing game.

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #659 on: July 30, 2009, 06:32:13 AM »
By who, a wizard or sorcerer? Why don't we start off with summoning or buffing.
Summoning is pretty much the exact same as dominating.  As for buffing, the best buff spells are personal, so that isn't a role.
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