Author Topic: Tier System for Classes  (Read 620556 times)

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Operation Shoestring

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #60 on: July 14, 2008, 06:37:37 AM »
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Beguilers get access to Program Memory (or whatever that spell was called), which, depending on the campaign, may outweigh the Shugenja's advantages alone.  And they get the Shadow conj/evo spells.  They're versatile enough.  And isn't beguiler a possible entry class for Shadowcraft mage?

They don't. I checked. Unless they got their spell list updated in another book.

Beguilers  use advanced learning to snag * mindrape. *

Is that actually a spell or did you, like me, forget the name of Programmed Amnesia?

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And Beguiler is a fantastic entry into Shadowcraft Mage, so there's always that.

Oh, good, i was afraid My memory had critical fumbled again.  Beguiler6/Prestige Bard1/Shadowcraft Mage4/Unseen Seer 8/Beguiler+1 (for Prog Amn.) was the beguiler build I was throwing around.  Although many DM's are uncool with using prestige bard to inflate the Beguiler's spell list.

Squirrelloid

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #61 on: July 14, 2008, 08:18:12 AM »
Having actually seen a few Wu Jen in play, they belong in tier 2.  They have some quite different cool tricks they can use, and while not quite as awe-inspiring as a sorceror who dedicates his life to breaking the universe (as opposed to actually playing the game), in normal play they will generally out power even an intelligently played Sorceror.

Shugenja are crap - their spell list is fucking awful.  Tier 5 probably.

The one thing I really disagree with on your current list is Rogues.  Given spell compendium, there really isn't anything immune to SA anymore, and the potion thrower rogue is so clearly better than everything else at your listed tier that either it deserves to be up a tier, or it deserves a tier of its own.  Also, factotum's might theoretically hit higher UMD, but that's not all that relevant when a rogue can already do stupid stuff like using a Candle of Invocation to be a cleric of higher level than he is, or drop a caster level 120 blasphemy out of a staff. 

Even without the stupid stuff, a Rogue can play in a party otherwise composed of Tier 1s and not feel useless.  His DPR is high enough he can actually kill things in one round.  And he can do a variety of useful (and often magical) things, including stealth, UMD, party face, and so forth; so while he's not tier 1, he's not so far away that he can't play in their games. 

Ie, given the characters actually know that casters are awesome, if a druid, cleric, and wizard sat down in a bar and said 'lets go adventuring', should a rogue walk up they wouldn't turn him away.  However, the barbarian gets told he's not wanted every time.  (As you can make a wizard who out-grapples a barbarian at 1st level, this holds true for sufficiently good optimizers no matter what level you are).
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #62 on: July 14, 2008, 08:55:51 AM »
Mind Rape is an actual spell.
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Cyrocloud

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #63 on: July 14, 2008, 01:48:09 PM »
I dont think a wizard would turn down a samurai either, just got to tell them to run in front of anything chargeing at you, sure you might have to give him some loot but you can take it back after he get eaten.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #64 on: July 14, 2008, 02:01:57 PM »
I dont think a wizard would turn down a samurai either, just got to tell them to run in front of anything chargeing at you, sure you might have to give him some loot but you can take it back after he get eaten.

Assuming you still want it. :eh

He also takes a share of your experience, and demands your spells that he can't effectively use (as opposed to say, a Crusader who is definitely a worthwhile target for buffing).
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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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Cyrocloud

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #65 on: July 14, 2008, 02:24:38 PM »
Forgot about the xp thing...you always could just cast a shaped silence one him and make it permanent so you don't have to listen to him, but I guess it still takes some xp...hmm this is becoming harder to even back up...

Kuroimaken

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #66 on: July 14, 2008, 03:28:44 PM »
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Shugenja are crap - their spell list is fucking awful.  Tier 5 probably.

Would you care to back that up, Squirrelloid? I think Shugenja are good at their own respective roles without being utterly useless when their roles aren't called for -- which matches the description for Tier 3. Limping them in with the Fighter, the Swashbuckler and the CA Ninja feels like an insult for a caster, here. It almost sounds like you didn't look the class' spell list over right, or skipped the order lists. No offense, but it sounds to me like you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #67 on: July 14, 2008, 05:02:22 PM »
Having actually seen a few Wu Jen in play, they belong in tier 2.  They have some quite different cool tricks they can use, and while not quite as awe-inspiring as a sorceror who dedicates his life to breaking the universe (as opposed to actually playing the game), in normal play they will generally out power even an intelligently played Sorceror.

I'll certainly consider it.  I need to review their list a lot more to be sure though.

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Shugenja are crap - their spell list is fucking awful.  Tier 5 probably.

Really?  As bad as Fighters and Monks and Healers?  Is their list really as restricted as Healers?

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The one thing I really disagree with on your current list is Rogues.  Given spell compendium, there really isn't anything immune to SA anymore, and the potion thrower rogue is so clearly better than everything else at your listed tier that either it deserves to be up a tier, or it deserves a tier of its own.  Also, factotum's might theoretically hit higher UMD, but that's not all that relevant when a rogue can already do stupid stuff like using a Candle of Invocation to be a cleric of higher level than he is, or drop a caster level 120 blasphemy out of a staff. 

Yeah, see, when you compare a Rogue to a Factotum, I'm just not seeing how the Rogue ever comes out on top, especially if your main point of comparison is UMD.  Also, don't forget that Rogues don't always have access to the magic items they need to sneak attack the various immunes.  And Rogue vs Beguiler?  No way.

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Ie, given the characters actually know that casters are awesome, if a druid, cleric, and wizard sat down in a bar and said 'lets go adventuring', should a rogue walk up they wouldn't turn him away.  However, the barbarian gets told he's not wanted every time.  (As you can make a wizard who out-grapples a barbarian at 1st level, this holds true for sufficiently good optimizers no matter what level you are).

I don't think they'd turn away a Rogue or a Barbarian.  The Rogue handles trapfinding and is great at cleaning up debilitated enemies.  The Barbarian is even better at handling debilitated enemies and dishes out a ton of damage even to otherwise fine ones.  Now, I could see either class starting to feel like a second citizen in such a group (not doing anything until the others decide it's more convenient to let him handle it) but I seriously don't see them being turned away.

JaronK

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #68 on: July 15, 2008, 03:36:15 AM »
Having actually seen a few Wu Jen in play, they belong in tier 2.  They have some quite different cool tricks they can use, and while not quite as awe-inspiring as a sorceror who dedicates his life to breaking the universe (as opposed to actually playing the game), in normal play they will generally out power even an intelligently played Sorceror.

The Watchful spirit and his initiative rerolls are horribly under-appreciated, but the big problem is the relatively short spell list.  Wu Jen are better than people think, probably almost on par with a sorc, but definitely not better.  Wu jen may get nifty stuff, but Sorcerors get Wings of Flurry/Cover and Arcane Fusion- that's not something you can ignore.

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Shugenja are crap - their spell list is fucking awful.  Tier 5 probably.

That's a horrible exaggeration, especially since we JUST DISCUSSED THEM.   yeesh.

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The one thing I really disagree with on your current list is Rogues.  Given spell compendium, there really isn't anything immune to SA anymore, and the potion thrower rogue is so clearly better than everything else at your listed tier that either it deserves to be up a tier, or it deserves a tier of its own.  Also, factotum's might theoretically hit higher UMD, but that's not all that relevant when a rogue can already do stupid stuff like using a Candle of Invocation to be a cleric of higher level than he is, or drop a caster level 120 blasphemy out of a staff. 

You're assuming DM's allow such silly UMD abuse.  Most don't.  Factotums don't beat rogues because they can UMD better, they beat rogues because cunning surge = I WIN BUTTON against anyone who isn't a full tier above you.  Actions are the most valuable thing in D&D.  Factotums get more of them.

Also, there isn't anything in SC which makes Oozes un-immune to SA last I heard.  Sure, you can get spells that allow you to sneak attack Constructs or Undead or Plants, but casting them takes up valuable actions- the Factotum's already attacked/casted twice.

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Even without the stupid stuff, a Rogue can play in a party otherwise composed of Tier 1s and not feel useless.  His DPR is high enough he can actually kill things in one round.  And he can do a variety of useful (and often magical) things, including stealth, UMD, party face, and so forth; so while he's not tier 1, he's not so far away that he can't play in their games. 

A fighter can be in a party of tier ones and not feel useless- someone need to take hits when you can't keep all the enemies away.  Tiers are based on power, not party utility.  If they were, bards would be at the top.

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Ie, given the characters actually know that casters are awesome, if a druid, cleric, and wizard sat down in a bar and said 'lets go adventuring', should a rogue walk up they wouldn't turn him away.  However, the barbarian gets told he's not wanted every time.  (As you can make a wizard who out-grapples a barbarian at 1st level, this holds true for sufficiently good optimizers no matter what level you are).

Uhm no.  A wizard isn't going to turn away a dedicated meatshield.  Especially since he can expect to need one sooner or later.  The druid and cleric, depending on their build, may not like him, but the wizard will want a pet- I mean, adventuring buddy.

Squirrelloid

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #69 on: July 15, 2008, 03:43:21 AM »

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Shugenja are crap - their spell list is fucking awful.  Tier 5 probably.

Really?  As bad as Fighters and Monks and Healers?  Is their list really as restricted as Healers?

Ok, maybe not quite as bad as healers.  But most of it is seriously direct damage (which is a poor life choice for a caster), and their list is really small.  Seriously, 5 spells/level for some of the higher spell levels, with few to none of them being at all good. 

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The one thing I really disagree with on your current list is Rogues.  Given spell compendium, there really isn't anything immune to SA anymore, and the potion thrower rogue is so clearly better than everything else at your listed tier that either it deserves to be up a tier, or it deserves a tier of its own.  Also, factotum's might theoretically hit higher UMD, but that's not all that relevant when a rogue can already do stupid stuff like using a Candle of Invocation to be a cleric of higher level than he is, or drop a caster level 120 blasphemy out of a staff. 

Yeah, see, when you compare a Rogue to a Factotum, I'm just not seeing how the Rogue ever comes out on top, especially if your main point of comparison is UMD.  Also, don't forget that Rogues don't always have access to the magic items they need to sneak attack the various immunes.  And Rogue vs Beguiler?  No way.

Except the rogue isn't sufficiently worse at UMD to make it all that relevant.  Does it really matter if its a level 110 or 120 blasphemy out of a staff?  Really?

And rogues are DPR machines in a way that factotums aren't.  Rogues are the only character who pumps out enough damage to make damage worthwhile while being flexible in how they do so.  (No needing to charge - potion thrower rogues are awesome).

And what's this lack of access to items?  You pay a caster to make it for you.  Seriously, this isn't a hard concept.  Default assumption is that items are always available.

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Ie, given the characters actually know that casters are awesome, if a druid, cleric, and wizard sat down in a bar and said 'lets go adventuring', should a rogue walk up they wouldn't turn him away.  However, the barbarian gets told he's not wanted every time.  (As you can make a wizard who out-grapples a barbarian at 1st level, this holds true for sufficiently good optimizers no matter what level you are).

I don't think they'd turn away a Rogue or a Barbarian.  The Rogue handles trapfinding and is great at cleaning up debilitated enemies.  The Barbarian is even better at handling debilitated enemies and dishes out a ton of damage even to otherwise fine ones.  Now, I could see either class starting to feel like a second citizen in such a group (not doing anything until the others decide it's more convenient to let him handle it) but I seriously don't see them being turned away.

JaronK

I'd turn a barbarian away.  Waste of space, xp, and party resources.  The *druid* melees better than he does (or the druid's animal companion at low levels).  The rogue actually performs useful services (party face, trapfinding, stealth/scout, DPR - actually gets to kill things before the wizard SoDs them).

Now, admittedly, everyone smart plays a potion thrower rogue.  But I think he isn't sufficiently worse than most of tier 3 to warrant being in tier 4.  (Or, as I mentioned, he deserves a tier of his own, because he clearly outshines everything in tier 4 as it stands now).
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Squirrelloid

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #70 on: July 15, 2008, 03:59:59 AM »
Having actually seen a few Wu Jen in play, they belong in tier 2.  They have some quite different cool tricks they can use, and while not quite as awe-inspiring as a sorceror who dedicates his life to breaking the universe (as opposed to actually playing the game), in normal play they will generally out power even an intelligently played Sorceror.

The Watchful spirit and his initiative rerolls are horribly under-appreciated, but the big problem is the relatively short spell list.  Wu Jen are better than people think, probably almost on par with a sorc, but definitely not better.  Wu jen may get nifty stuff, but Sorcerors get Wings of Flurry/Cover and Arcane Fusion- that's not something you can ignore.

My point is that sorcerors' limited spells known often means they don't have the right tool for the job, but a tool which is sufficiently serviceable.  The Wu Jen doesn't have the best tools, but of the ones he has he can know the right one every time.  Ie, a wizard's advantages without a wizard's overpowering spell list.  I think that makes them even.

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Shugenja are crap - their spell list is fucking awful.  Tier 5 probably.

That's a horrible exaggeration, especially since we JUST DISCUSSED THEM.   yeesh.

Ok, first consider that Shugenja are like Sorcerors, in that they know so many spells and cast them without preparation.  Among other things, this means no quicken spell for them (because they don't even have the advantage of a feat to fix this deficiency like Sorcerors do).

They know slightly more spells, insofar as they get an elemental focus and an order, and gain up to 6 spells/spell level in total for 1st level (4 9th level).  One of those spells is set by his order.  He is also prohibited from learning spells of the opposite element, but they automatically gain Spell Focus with their element (about the only thing they have going in their favor).  They cast divine spells.

Ok, the spell list isn't total crap.  I was remembering more dd and less awesome (whee illusions) - maybe I'm remembering the OA version?  Ok, I suppose tier 3 is probably the right place - they certainly can't compete at tier 2, but they're better than tier 4.

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The one thing I really disagree with on your current list is Rogues.  Given spell compendium, there really isn't anything immune to SA anymore, and the potion thrower rogue is so clearly better than everything else at your listed tier that either it deserves to be up a tier, or it deserves a tier of its own.  Also, factotum's might theoretically hit higher UMD, but that's not all that relevant when a rogue can already do stupid stuff like using a Candle of Invocation to be a cleric of higher level than he is, or drop a caster level 120 blasphemy out of a staff. 

You're assuming DM's allow such silly UMD abuse.  Most don't.  Factotums don't beat rogues because they can UMD better, they beat rogues because cunning surge = I WIN BUTTON against anyone who isn't a full tier above you.  Actions are the most valuable thing in D&D.  Factotums get more of them.

Also, there isn't anything in SC which makes Oozes un-immune to SA last I heard.  Sure, you can get spells that allow you to sneak attack Constructs or Undead or Plants, but casting them takes up valuable actions- the Factotum's already attacked/casted twice.

Last I checked using said wands was a swift action because the spells were swift actions (as per the DMG being the primary source on magic items which says activated items take the same amount of time as using the spell).  And the rogue gets to TWF with potion throwinig, and virtually never misses, and adds SA damage.

And its silly to talk about the Tier 1 classes as being uberpowerful if such abuses *aren't* allowed.  Clearly the tier 1 list assumes a RAW world.  Otherwise every class can be arbitrarily nerfed into evenness.

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Even without the stupid stuff, a Rogue can play in a party otherwise composed of Tier 1s and not feel useless.  His DPR is high enough he can actually kill things in one round.  And he can do a variety of useful (and often magical) things, including stealth, UMD, party face, and so forth; so while he's not tier 1, he's not so far away that he can't play in their games. 

A fighter can be in a party of tier ones and not feel useless- someone need to take hits when you can't keep all the enemies away.  Tiers are based on power, not party utility.  If they were, bards would be at the top.

Except bards aren't even that good in a party of all spellcasters.

"What do you bring to the party?"
"I animated some beefy undead minions yesterday, make myself uberbuff in combat, and can get miracles granted by my god"
"you're in"
"I transform into a powerful creature while retaining all the tricks of my awesome nature spellcasting"
"Say no more, you're in"
"I redefine reality just by thinking about it"
"Check, you're in"
"I sing"
"That's it?"
"It makes people a little better at combat."
"Um, I only miss on a natural 1 against monster 12 CRs above our level."
"Err... 14 CRs for me."
"It improves your minions though"
"My undead don't like singing, sorry" (immune)
"My animal companion doesn't miss either"
"My familiar is going to spend the day polymorphed into a beholder and using its AMF eye ray where needed, so I don't see any need for it to 'hit' at all"
"Anything else Bard?"
"Um, I have spells"
"You call those spells? Pshaw! I'll show you what magic is"
"I don't embarass myself with a sword?"
"Scram kid, you're bothering me. Next!"
"Hi, I'm likable McFacey and also Sneaky McSneaky, i spot traps without even trying, and I can use any magic item, so if you need someone to use a wand or something.  Oh yeah, and my expected DPR is 200 damage."
"Hmmm... that's not so bad."
"We'll give you a trial run, see how you do."

"Wait!  Ugg help you!"
"And what do you do?"
"I hit things really hard!"
*casters look at each other*
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Uhm no.  A wizard isn't going to turn away a dedicated meatshield.  Especially since he can expect to need one sooner or later.  The druid and cleric, depending on their build, may not like him, but the wizard will want a pet- I mean, adventuring buddy.

Dedicated meatshields:
Druid Animal Companion
Animate Undead Minions
Intelligent Undead Minions
Charmed Monsters/People made fanatic with a diplomacy check (nonmagical end effect)

And most of those chosen well outperform a same level fighter, are available in higher quantities, and don't eat xp/treasure shares.

Plus the Druid and the Cleric can take turns swapping as meatshield as necessary.

I'd also list cohorts, but you take another full caster as your cohort when you get leadership.

This idea that a player has to play a meatshield, or its even desirable for them to do so, is a myth, and should be treated as such.  Even in standard play, the meatshield is superfluous by 9th level because the monsters just ignore him and move around/past him, so the wizard has to have his own solutions anyway.

Now, a fighter with ranks in profession(bartender)... well, they may at least find out where he works at night.  "Martini, shaken, not stirred."
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 04:40:30 AM by Squirrelloid »
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #71 on: July 15, 2008, 09:14:02 AM »
That's why the only tanks are spiked chain trippers, and OHKO chargers.
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dman11235

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #72 on: July 15, 2008, 11:51:03 AM »
I've made a monk tank.  And am working on an archer tank.  So ha!
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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #73 on: July 15, 2008, 12:40:13 PM »
Quote
"Hi, I'm likable McFacey and also Sneaky McSneaky, i spot traps without even trying, and I can use any magic item, so if you need someone to use a wand or something.  Oh yeah, and my expected DPR is 200 damage."
"Hmmm... that's not so bad."
"We'll give you a trial run, see how you do."
I'm sorry kid. Your trial run was good, but then we found this other guy who can do everything you can do, but he replaced 200 DPR with Power Word Kill, Dominate Monster, Mass Hold monster, foresight, and Time stop, all while automatically overcoming monster spell resistance.

Anklebite

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #74 on: July 15, 2008, 04:05:34 PM »
Now, admittedly, everyone smart plays a potion thrower rogue.

slightly off-topic, but now Im curious.... wazza potion thrower rogue?
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #75 on: July 15, 2008, 04:11:20 PM »
"I sing"
"That's it?"
"It makes people a little better at combat."
"Um, I only miss on a natural 1 against monster 12 CRs above our level."
"Yeah, but I make the party and every other non undead ally within miles do an extra 12d6 damage with every hit"
"Anything else Bard?"
"Um, I have spells"
"You call those spells? Pshaw! I'll show you what magic is"
"And I'll show you what War Weavers are... combined with heals and Sublime Chord!  Oh, and I can use Fascinate with Diplomacy to make nearly anyone we fight switch to our side."
"You're in!"

Fixed for you.  I mean, seriously, Bards take some work to get right, but they're incredibly good when used correctly.

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #76 on: July 15, 2008, 04:23:03 PM »
Quote
"Hi, I'm likable McFacey and also Sneaky McSneaky, i spot traps without even trying, and I can use any magic item, so if you need someone to use a wand or something.  Oh yeah, and my expected DPR is 200 damage."
"Hmmm... that's not so bad."
"We'll give you a trial run, see how you do."
I'm sorry kid. Your trial run was good, but then we found this other guy who can do everything you can do, but he replaced 200 DPR with Power Word Kill, Dominate Monster, Mass Hold monster, foresight, and Time stop, all while automatically overcoming monster spell resistance.

Beguilers ftw!

And, yeah, Bards.  Hmm.  If they're not going into Sublime Chord, then they suck.  If they're half-elves and are Bard 5/Mindbender 1/AAA Y/Sublime Chord 1/BBB X, then, yeah.  Then they're on par with a Sorcerer, but no longer really bards.

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #77 on: July 15, 2008, 04:23:42 PM »
Now, admittedly, everyone smart plays a potion thrower rogue.

slightly off-topic, but now Im curious.... wazza potion thrower rogue?

Throw flasks of acid.  It's a ranged touch attack.  Go with TWF.  Profit.

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #78 on: July 15, 2008, 04:35:29 PM »
Ok, so a potion thrower rogue is.... a rogue who throws acid vials....?

Am i the only one thinking this is like... very bad...

I'd much rather have a rogue with two +5 shortswords and shadowblade+swashbuckler levels+swordsage levels +craven pumping it up in the back of the monster for :

d6 + str+dex+int+wis+magic+ sneak attack damage per attack (twf too)

then

d3 +sneak attack damage per attack.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #79 on: July 15, 2008, 04:41:53 PM »
Ok, so a potion thrower rogue is.... a rogue who throws acid vials....?

Am i the only one thinking this is like... very bad...

I'd much rather have a rogue with two +5 shortswords and shadowblade+swashbuckler levels+swordsage levels +craven pumping it up in the back of the monster for :

d6 + str+dex+int+wis+magic+ sneak attack damage per attack (twf too)

then

d3 +sneak attack damage per attack.

Let's see...

Ranged touch attack, aka quickly gets to 95% accuracy vs just about everything while preserving at least a little distance to reliably deal sneak attack...

Or do slightly higher damage, with significantly less accuracy and significantly greater risk to yourself?

Also, is there anything stopping a character from getting those stat mods and Craven on ranged attacks?
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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[/spoiler]