The beguiler lacks magic circle of protection against X and dimensional anchor so planar binding becomes very dangerous for a beguiler. At least the dread necro can kill and animate anything he uses planar binding for.
Again with arcane disciple you an only cast the spell once a day
My example Beguiler does have Dimensional Anchor, and he can just buy an eternal wand of Magic Circle for not much. And yes he can only do it once a day, but he can set up a several day long service that allows him to have the creature use it's SLA whenever he commands it. Or for example for Magic Circle, he can just bind a permanent circle creature and make it's service, "Follow me around and move to points I direct you" and have the (Su) Magic Circle for 10+ days at the cost of a spell slot 10 days ago.
Which you know pretty much is what I got out of you. "Finally"
Except the part where it had been finally gotten out of me in my first fucking post before you showed up and you just ignored it.
Okay I'm mostly inclined to conceede that point. If you can illustrate how its "objectively inferior" see thats what I'm talking about. Its a baseless claim Until you point some stuff out about "How" its better. Maybe it is, maybe not... you saying it so "Sans evidence or examples just doesn't "Make it so" Further access to a domain depending on what you chose can or cannot be a big deal.
It's objectively inferior because the Sorcerer has to give up one spell known at every level in return for getting that spell known from the Domain which usually doesn't have all good spells, and usually nut punches you by forcing you to take spells you might want later, but not as your only spell.
For Example, a Hypothetical Sorcerer who did this with Travel domain would only be able to cast fly and nothing else at level 4, and only be able to cast Dimension Door and nothing else at level 8, and only Teleport at level 5, ect. Name a Domain, look at that domains level 4 spell, would you rather be able to cast that spell and only that spell in those slots for an entire level? Or Would you rather choose Wings of Flurry or Solid Fog, or EBT or Orb of Bitch.
Okay Everbody look this statement is largely nonsense. Getting "Dragon blooded" in front of you name isn't "LIMITING" at all really, further being sorceror 1 opens up a door to a whole lot more feat options too. Being a "Sliver brow human" is not a limitation of race. The fact that "Great great grandad was so awesome he got to bone DRAGONS!" or went to demon orgys or whatever... happened in almost every race. So all those Feats that say "sorceror 1" "Dragon"Rider" are not to be overlooked. Coupled with the metamagic options you have more sorcerors doing more varied and potentially "better" shit.
Excellent, so you make no sense. How about being a Raptoran means you can't be any other race! or Being a Dwarf means you can't be any other race!
Two of the four worth taking are race specific. The other two cost you your familiar. They aren't bad. I called them out as being the four good ones. But they certainly aren't anything much better than a different Sorcerer that didn't take them.
See but you said "high Level" and because of that I said 16-20 you meant 13-20. This is why the words "too much" didn't matter. To me it was, again, your argument. Which without a definition of "high level" became just subjective complaining. Arguments with subjectivity flaws like that can summararily be "throw out" along with whatever else you're trying to say, because it's just too broad to argue. We can actually Talk about Level 8 optimization
You still are missing the part where levels 1-10 were the Beguiler is just plain better without even trying actually exist. And they should be valued. Beguilers spend half their life better than Sorcerers and the other half pretty damn close. They are always at ever single level better than Favored Souls. Why are they Tier 2? Because they don't get Wings of Flurry? Neither do Psions. Psions are like Beguilers but worse. Beguilers roll in awesomeness through all levels, and complaining that they aren't Tier 2 because they are maybe slightly less awesome then Sorcerers at levels 13-20 isn't a real argument.
Once there was this same debate but about How "Warmages Blow Goats...etc...ect.." you're familiar with it I'm sure being a board regular. The statment was made that unless wings of flurry is better than everyspell the Warmage gets at that level... but... Well it was. We can play the same game with Wings of Flurry at 8.
See, Warmages do blow goats. Because every one of their spells does damage, and less well than Wings of Flurry. But guess what, A beguiler doesn't do damage. It has BC easily comparable with a Sorcerer, better than one who chooses Wings of Flurry, it also has single target save or lose almost as good as anything a Sorcerer could have and much better than a Sorcerer who chooses Wings of Flurry, an AoE save or lose more powerful but limited in targets than Wings of Flurry, and he has as good defense as a Sorcerer could possibly have and way better than one who chooses Wings of Flurry, and he has better utility than a Sorcerer at level 8, Especially one who chooses Wings of Flurry, and he has Arcane Disciple to add to all that. Warmages suck because they have the same spell 12 times. Beguilers rock because they have twelve different spells, and the good kinds of spells.
Frankly as far as I see the Beguiler doesn't get EBT at least not in the PHB 2. so its just "Solid Fog" In combat. . . but then too... you can metamagic the hell out of it too. The other spell I see on that list that I find particularly useful is fom, but sorcerors can do the whole "grandad boned a dragon" feat chain to get some really good spells added at the appropriate level along with other bits of utility.
Also they have a better selection of low level powers to choose from at that point.
He can get it with Shadow Bloodline, along with Shadow Evocations, Planeshift, and Shadow Walk. But he doesn't need it because he's got Solid Fog. And I'm really not seeing how the chance of maybe one good 4th level spell and some other maybe good lower ones at the cost of 4 feats compares favorably to the Beguiler at all.
Seven Times better is a lie. Or at least arbitrary number pulled out of his haversack. Propaganda doesn't back arguments. How is it actually better, please? Especially when no ones considered what the sorceror might have taken. Its a bum argument really.
JaronK said Sorcerers are so awesome because they can Teleport and Planar Bind and Contact Other Plane and still have a Save or lose.
I compared a Level 10 Sorcerer who gets 1 level five spell of whatever he wants, to a level 10 Beguiler who gets Commune, Teleport, Lesser Planar Binding, Three save or loses, one of which makes people his bitch, Break Enchantment, and Sending. Which one spell do you choose as a Sorcerer to be more versatile and powerful than all of that?
I called it seven times more versatile because I was only counting two of the save or loses, and was comparing the seven Beguiler spells you'd be happy to have to the 1 the Sorcerer had.
So... they have effectively half the spells advertised some of the time. Okay fine.
The thing is you only need one spell that fucks over people with a weak will save really. Which again reminds me why Wof Is sooo fucking good. It dazes undead, slimes ... everything because what the fuck is immune to daze that isn't a reflex save.
So sometimes they have only one spell that fucks shit over instead of two. The Sorcerer only ever has one.
Its stupid, and fruitless to debate what we can do with prc's.
I think sorcs fit more prcs I'd have to check but they probbably do ... so you know Point to the sorcs and there are just as many ways if not more to increase sorceror spells known.
Beguilers only need to add to their spell list, Sorcerers need to add to spells known. Beguilers have more options for adding to their spells than Sorcerers, and more options from PrCs. Qualifying for PrCs that don't add to spell list is nice, but it doesn't affect the argument about spells.
Now this is just shennanigans. On who's authority is that okay? Yours? You can't make an appeal to authority with you as the authority and expect to be taken seriously. You're not anybody who's ideas of "justice" or "fairness" are universal or even respected. Pretentding that that statment matters in the least, is just LOL~bait.
The other part about arcane disciple being X times greater than sorceror options is yet to be substantiated but...
1) emoticon less.
2) Fine, I just use Lesser Planar Binding to Bind an Efreet, because after all we are apparently allowing Polymorph to grant spells, who would object to a Wish loop. Any statement about cheese means nothing. Blah. Efreet Wishes, Beguiler is tied for Tier 1.
2. Is just going to be the rest. Where do beguilers get EBT? Again I don't see it on thier list is it a web enhancement or something? On another note well yes they do lend themselves to doing different things but the "save or die" I don't acknowledge SR being problem. Saying its negated 60% of the time is MORE of the nonsense I'm talking about...
Based on what?
Outsider SR? At what level? How are their reflex saves?
This is one of those *Haversack statistics" which work until someone says "Numbers or it doesn't happen."
So... well you know. Numbers or it doesn't happen.
Here is a list of SRD monster from CR 6-10 that can get out of Solid Fog by any means other then walking at 5ft per round:
Wind effects:
Huge and Greater Air Elemental, Bralani, Noble Djinn
Going Ethereal:
Couatl, Night Hag, Xill
Greater Teleport:
Babua, Succubus, Vrock, Bone Devil, Eriynes.
Now none of those are immune to confusion at all. So a Beguiler can deal with every single Core CR 6-10 challenge with his level 4 spells and contribute comparably to a Wings of Flurry Sorcerer. But let's reduce that list to those who have higher will saves than reflex saves:
Couatl, Night Hag, Succubus, Vrock.
Against all Solid Fog wastes a standard action doing nothing but getting out of the Fog, and leaving them vulnerable to attack. That's seriously the entire list of Core monsters that Wings of Flurry is better BC against than Confusion + Solid Fog from CR 6-8. And every one of those the will save is only one higher than the reflex save.
There are no Core monsters in that range that would make me rather have Wings of Flurry than Confusion and Solid Fog if I wanted to BC. If I wanted to do damage with BC rider, that's different.
Compare the 100% chance of wasting a standard action with Solid Fog against a Couatl, with the chance a Dwarf (insert enviroment for no Cha penalty) Sorcerer with 18 starting cha and a +4 item would have against it, DC 21 save vs daze against +9 reflex save.
We could do a top 5 level 4 combat spells in the game for effect. I'd say i'd make it up there. So meh. okay no-prize there.
Yeah, you know what else is on that list? Solid Fog. Wow, almost like the Sorcerer and Beguiler are in the same ballpark.
