Tier System for Classes

[PhaedrusXY]

Well, there is that # X rule in the "things I'm not allowed to do while gaming" on GiantITP that says "I'm not allowed to buy a shitload of Alchemist's fire just for the hell of it/because their cheap/because I can carry them." . Doubt that any sane DM would allow you to just BUY a shitload of flasks...

Who gives a crap about this (stupid) "rule"? Yes, I would expect DMs to let you buy a shitload of alchemist's fire. Yes, as a DM I would let someone. Next objection?

[PhaedrusXY]

Which ones?

What, do you want a journal reference too? Google it yourself. That's all I did. I found a page that said that some of them had strong enough digestive acids to "dissolve a whole midge in an hour", and that they could digest things like roast beef.

The entire objection is silly to begin with, anyway. He's buying mundane items. Who gives a crap if he buys them by the wheel-barrow full?

And you think 30 attacks per round is "common" at the higher levels?  I've never seen someone make 30 attacks in a round, and I hope I never do, because it would grind combat sessions to a halt.

Even if you gave the rogue an "infinite ammo belt of potions", I still don't think it would move him up a tier, by the way. He's not doing anything special, IMO. Just damage. If that were enough, fighter would also move up, due to the Uber-Charger type builds.

Also, I'm pretty sure I've seen mention of taking Weapon Focus (flask), or something similiar. If you can take Wpn Focus: Ray or "Ranged Touch Spell", and Wpn Focus: Grapple, I sure don't see why you couldn't take it with flasks.

[Alastar]

WElcome to the world of CO.

Amongs regular things here, things that throw too much things in a round.

see My gatling bow build for an example.

I promise i'm gonna update it soon!!!

[PhaedrusXY]

WElcome to the world of CO.

Amongs regular things here, things that throw too much things in a round.

see My gatling bow build for an example.

I promise i'm gonna update it soon!!!

I know it's possible to make a build that can throw 30 things in a round... or 30,000, for that matter. I'm just saying, does anyone actually play such a character? JaronK said he's not considering specific builds when rating the classes. I'd especially think that crazy builds that people don't really play in real games shouldn't be considered. A character that makes 30 attacks per round or more would be annoying as hell to play with in a real game, unless you used a computer program to make all of his attack and damage rolls.

[Kuroimaken]

Um, Rogue can use major or minor creation via wand or staff... And a potion throwing rogue doesn't exactly have a lot of mandatory purchases.

Which so far haven't even been determined to work by RAW without ambiguity.

JaronK said he's not considering specific builds when rating the classes.

There! Problem solved. We can all stop cluttering the thread with stupid arguments over rogues tossing potions now.

Also, midgets.

NOW, back on topic. I see Shugenja has not been placed on the list yet...

[JaronK]

Okay, quite simply, here's why the Potion Throwing Rogue concept doesn't suddenly boost Rogues by a whole Tier.

1)  It's a very specific build, rarely used by most players.  As a rule, this system is trying to help DMs who are judging the power of their players... if it's all ranked by builds that never see play, it won't help with that.

2)  It requires a bunch of specific gear that may not be available all the time, such as a steady supply of a wide variety of potions (and really, there's no gaurentee that in any given campaign you can always pop back to town for whatever you happen to need).  Yes, you could buy a ton in one metropolis... if they stock that many in said metropolis (remember, D&D does not assume assembly lines exist) and if you've got the carrying capacity... but if you're stuck out in the woods somewhere without a teleporting class, you could be in serious trouble.  Not to mention the need for a Ring of Greater Blinking or similar just to be able to deal damage, and probably wands of Gravestrike and Golemstrike in case of undead or golems.  These are not always available in all campaigns (the books may not be used, or the campaign may not have magic marts).  I have absolutely played in campaigns where you couldn't pull this off... in fact the one I'm playing in right now would make it not work (we don't have a Tier 1 caster, nor do we have steady access to a market, and while you could buy a few things in the market, you can't purchase bucket loads of anything at a time).

3)  It's still weak to things that can't be sneak attacked.  Oozes and elementals shut it down entirely, as do things with Uncanny Dodge.

4)  We're still talking about a d6 HD light armour class that has to stay within 30' of the big baddie in combat.  Much like my commoner charger build, it can do damage, but if the enemy turns around and gets angry, the build could be squished VERY quickly.  If you look at the Tier 3s, they've either got great defenses or don't have to get close to the enemy at all.

5)  A lot of it depends on there being a Tier 1 caster helping you out, either by teleporting you to and from town to get more ammo or via dubious use of Major Creation (assuming you can make all the various elemental potions entirely from vegetables and minerals).  The truth is, Rogues are plenty strong with a Tier 1 caster anyway.  Why mess around with Major Creation when he could just Polymorph you into a Hydra and go nuts with the melee sneak attacks?  Or maybe he could use that Major Creation to make a ton of vials of Black Lotus Poison and just ignore the sneak attack thing entirely while chucking those at the enemy?  Maybe he could use Permanent Shrink Item to give you an anvil and then you could just sneak above people and drop it on folks?  The truth is, anyone can be awesomely powerful when you've got a Tier 1 caster providing support.  But that's the power of the Tier 1 caster, not the Rogue (or whatever else is getting buffed). 

6)  It still has the out of combat issues of a Rogue, namely the fact that spells often beat his skills (nice Open Lock you got there, but I have Knock and Arcane Lock.)  Not to say that Rogue skills aren't great, but pop up a Tier and the skill monkeys there all do it better, with the Beguiler and Factotum both having Int synergy to balance out their lower skills, but both having spellcasting to support their skills, among other things.  It's a noticeable power difference, and this is from someone who used to play Rogues a lot before he switched to Beguilers and Factotums because they worked so much better.

7)  In the end, all it is is a Rogue that gains the ability to make touch attacks with ranged shots.  That's cute, but Master Thrower 5 does that too... and can enchant his weapons while getting those gloves that make his throw weapons all returning.  Since Master Thrower is basically the PrC for thrown weapon use, the fact that that PrC does what the potion throwing trick is trying to accomplish anyway makes said trick a bit less interesting. 

So yeah, it's a possible trick, but it's not bumping Rogues up a Tier. 

JaronK

[Operation Shoestring]

6)  It still has the out of combat issues of a Rogue, namely the fact that spells often beat his skills (nice Open Lock you got there, but I have Knock and Arcane Lock.)  Not to say that Rogue skills aren't great, but pop up a Tier and the skill monkeys there all do it better, with the Beguiler and Factotum both having Int synergy to balance out their lower skills, but both having spellcasting to support their skills, among other things.  It's a noticeable power difference, and this is from someone who used to play Rogues a lot before he switched to Beguilers and Factotums because they worked so much better.

Don't forget Cunning Surge.  Extra actions FTW!

[Midnight_v]

I will wait till the rogue buisness is settled to post my argument of the Psiwar...
Although, Jaronk, I was slightly insulted by the implication that I was making an emotional
appeal about it. Like "its my favorite class, so it must be gUd!" not so much. I was just honestly
trying steer the conversation toward something productive in the other thread but that FAEL'd
if you will, and in the course of that I started examining the psiwar and decided it was tier 3 ready.
 Though also I don't think that bard = the tob characters but I'll discuss that in my argument. For now I'm going to re-read the system and see if I've got the rating classifications understood clearly.
Thanks and stand by.

[JaronK]

I will wait till the rogue buisness is settled to post my argument of the Psiwar...
Although, Jaronk, I was slightly insulted by the implication that I was making an emotional
appeal about it. Like "its my favorite class, so it must be gUd!" not so much.

I certainly wasn't trying to imply anything of the sort, and appologize if I came across that way.

When playing one's favorite class, people just play better.  They instinctually gravitate towards effective ways to play the class and tend to really push a class to its limits.  As such, they're usually better with that class than they are with other classes... this is true for me with Dread Necromancers, Beguilers, and so on.  It's not about you being overly emotional or something like that... it's that you will most likely be far more skilled with that class than with others, and thus will rank it higher because you know how hard the class can be pushed, and yet possibly not realize how hard a class you don't like as much can be pushed.  This creates an inherent bias.  I mean, I'm not actually all that good with Druids... it took a long time with people showing me what could be done with them before I understood what all you can do with them.  My instincts just don't go towards Druids.  Meanwhile, I was breaking the heck out of Rogue type characters from the get go, and I was figuring out seriously potent stuff with Binders at the first read.

I was just honestly
trying steer the conversation toward something productive in the other thread but that FAEL'd
if you will, and in the course of that I started examining the psiwar and decided it was tier 3 ready.

Because of your comments I've started reviewing the class, but it will take a while... psionics is another area I don't naturally gravitate towards.  Most of the comments on the class though are either suggesting it's a strong Tier 3 or even a Tier 2 (which seems awfully high to me) or that it's solidly in Tier 4... this suggests to me that it's actually a strong Tier 4 or weak Tier 3, just from experience with how people tend to view a class.

Though also I don't think that bard = the tob characters but I'll discuss that in my argument. For now I'm going to re-read the system and see if I've got the rating classifications understood clearly.
Thanks and stand by.

Compare a White Raven adept to a Bard that maximizes Inspire Courage and you'll really start to see how potent Bards can get.  They were seen as very weak in early 3.5, and designers have since been adding very powerful options to them as attempted fixes, without realizing that other designers had already done so.  As a result, we get things like Words of Creation + Dragonfire Inspiration which makes that piddly little Inspire Courage suddenly terrifying.  Plus, you've got all the broken goodness of Diplomacy combined with Fascinate... yikes.  And then there's the skill support and social spells.  Where Bards tend to suffer is when unoptimized in kick in the door style games.

JaronK

[Eldariel]

Fascinate is incredible in many combat scenarios too where you aren't facing directly hostile opponents. A Bard sneaking nearby and using Fascinate can just pre-empt an encounter singlehandedly. Then just few deftly worded Suggestions/Diplomacy later and the would-be opponents are either friendly or disposed of. Really, this is much of a Bard's power in Core. In addition to having quite decent spellcasting (as everyone knows, Spellcasting Does Things Better), Fascinate solves encounters (and the save is near impossible to make as it's skill-based), Inspire Courage works in an awesome fashion especially with Druids (Druid alone is already two characters with multiple natural attacks to benefit of it - depending on DM interpretation, it could also work on summons) and overall larger parties, and the Bard him/herself doubles as an able combatant, either at range or in melee thanks to Inspire Courage affecting self too and lasting 5 rounds after the singing ends.

And Bards have UMD, not to mention having Cure-line on the spell list (and thus the ability to use the CLW Wands without UMD from level 1), making them quite able out-of-combat healers too. Really, if they have any chances of using their Fascinate, Bards are quite awesome. One of their fortes is the ability to contribute basically in whatever sitiuation. Oh yeah, they've also got the ability to actually increase party's HD, which is one of to the very few defenses against especially the Blasphemy-line of spells.


Bards definitely earn their Tier 3-slot. Outside Core, they can be awesome at pretty much anything they choose while still performing other roles adequately, and even in Core they're valuable party members (mostly they were just overlooked early on and Fascinate wasn't given due credit).

[Midnight_v]

JaronK we miss understand each other occasionally,but ultimately I respect you so thats why you get to me sometimes... forgive my thin-skinnedness.

Compare a White Raven adept to a Bard that maximizes Inspire Courage and you'll really start to see how potent Bards can get.  They were seen as very weak in early 3.5, and designers have since been adding very powerful options to them as attempted fixes, without realizing that other designers had already done so.  As a result, we get things like Words of Creation + Dragonfire Inspiration which makes that piddly little Inspire Courage suddenly terrifying.  Plus, you've got all the broken goodness of Diplomacy combined with Fascinate... yikes.  And then there's the skill support and social spells.  Where Bards tend to suffer is when unoptimized in kick in the door style games.
JaronK

HOWEVER compare ^this statement!^

to this

Specific builds won't do it.  General, average optimization will.

Ask yourself, are you good with psywars?  Does that lead you to believe that they should be tier 3?  If so, they should be tier 4.  You are going to artificially inflate the status of classes that you are good with.  Me?  My monks are tier 3, easy.  But that doesn't make the class tier 3, the class is still tier 5.  You must lower the classes you are good with and that you like, to account for a better understanding of the class.

I say that right Jaron?

Exactly correct.

 What irks me about that is ... well to me. The dragonfire inspration thing is the high end of optimization for bards. Ala the king of smack. Its mostly a specific build. Also that combo requires steep requirements *like* be exalted and dragonblooded.
Which is fine but that is one highly specific combo, further it really works better if you're a crusader with a few levels of bard and song of the white raven. That adds to the crusader in my book.
  To me the King of smack is the extreme example of the psiwar's optimization, however, just like the Inspiration combo is the extreme of bard ops.
 Thing is that even a moderately optimized use of the Claw series of powers + expansion  covers the melee combat aspect of the psiwar build. Huge Vampirc claws for the win.
 You can then spend the rest of your feats purchasing powerpoints/hit points/ and Utility Powers taken from any list up to 5th level. This is really good, especially if your type happens to be somthing other than humanoid, because of metamorphosis and metamorphic transfer by which you assume the (su) of a form you assume.
The most unfair example of this is the elan becoming a host of fucked up things but one of which is a Phasm which has
Alternate Form (Su) A phasm can assume any form of Large size or smaller as a standard action. A phasm can remain in its alternate form until it chooses to assume a new one or return to its natural form.
Which using this ability would then give you the (su) of anything in the game but cause it triggers the feat.
,but half-giants become real giants and dragonwrought cheese exists as well.
 The ultimate point is that psiwars are level 3 because they can spend a feat to buy a spell which in D&D is a pretty damn good trade. Futher they're mostly likely to do it because they get all the bonus feats.

 Moreover you state:

Where Bards tend to suffer is when unoptimized in kick in the door style games.

Well so do psychic warriors.

continued in next post.

[Midnight_v]

The proper base build of a psychic warrior should have 15 -16 feats
1 of those feats should be psionic body.
7-8 of those feats should be Psionic Talent.
The remaining 7 feats shuold be whatever fighting style you're using and expanded knowledges.
That nets you +20 hp and 200pps at 20
You'll also have around 22-24 powers at 20 Most of which are utility powers or healing some of which are combat. This is how a generic psiwar shuold be built from my experience.
I've taken a liberty of taking snapshots of pps/per battle at every 5 levels under this system. not that you get 2 hps for every psychic feat you take as well. Assume human, and a 4 combat day.
1 You get 3pp at first level but thats okay Your're a fighter who can become large. Cool for level 1.
5. 28pp with 7 pps per encounter. You're Claws last 5 hours perday with 2 attacks and lions charge. You can also dimension swap.
10. 79 pp 19.5 per battle You become huge with claws that deal 4d6 damge that heal you 2d6
15. 135 pp. 34 per encounter. You can fly. And Catapsi which makes people reconsider the psionics/magic transparency rule.
20. 200 ppts 50pts per battle.  There are several ways in which you can not die. With things like Fiery discorporation. In general though you teleport swap people around and  not to mention mind wipe people for 6 negative levels at a time.
20th level is really just rocket tag, but this class DOES get to play rocket tag and is durable, it could vigor for 100 temp hitpoints or what ever.


This is just using the SRD btw. Which means there is a whole addtional book that I could comb through for gems like Dimensional hop, but we do have Dimensions swap on our list and the ability to swich places with or switch the places of allies give you an excellent control of many situations.

Out of combat you get knowledge psionics: Knowledge (psionics) covers ancient mysteries, psionic traditions, psychic symbols, cryptic phrases, astral constructs, and psionic races. You can use this skill to identify psionic monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities.
Ancient mysteris and cryptic phrases (since that in and of itself is cryptic) covers a lot of clues, even knowledge checks in that fashion are largely dm fiat anyway you're still not sucking when people ask random questions about the starelves or pyramids or whatever. Plus its covers psionc races, which means potentially any race that has a psionic version written in any d&d book. Its a small list but not terrible.
Also you get the pretty much awesome.
AUTOHYPNOSIS
Which is one of the big 3 reasons the expert is tier'd where its at instead of the lowest tier. Concentration as autohypnosis = Its too much stuff to post without making this post look clunky just srd it. Its general cool shit.
However I will post this function: Memorize
You can attempt to memorize a long string of numbers, a long passage of verse, or some other particularly difficult piece of information You always retain this information; however, you can recall it only with another successful Autohypnosis check.

Thats a badass out of combat ability. Other piece of difficult information could be anything and since its a free action you can jolly well walk the earth memorizing everything you lay eyes on or hear. Like the complete map of the dungeon before its lost or whatever. Or what exactly did that contract with Asmodeus say...?
It does alot of other things too.
Finally you have a psionic focus. take 15 on concentration checks.

K. If I have to do more to covince I'll go look at the complete psionics and get back to you.
Yeah thats why its good. If the duskblade could select wizard spells of 5th level or lower it'd be even better well the psiwar does that at high levels so I declare him tier 3.

[Kuroimaken]

Does Autohypnosis say you HAVE to belong to a Psionic class to take it? If not, even cross-class buying it will grant you the nice benefits with a sufficiently high ability modifier. It's a DC 15 check, it's not as if you HAVE to max it for it to be useful.

[Stratovarius]

It does not require being psionic.

[JaronK]

What irks me about that is ... well to me. The dragonfire inspration thing is the high end of optimization for bards. Ala the king of smack. Its mostly a specific build. Also that combo requires steep requirements *like* be exalted and dragonblooded.    To me the King of smack is the extreme example of the psiwar's optimization, however, just like the Inspiration combo is the extreme of bard ops.

Well wait a minute.  I was talking about two feats.  Now, those two feats require being exalted and draconic, but they're not the only two feats that work with Inspire Courage, and there's a lot of possibilities.

The King of Smack, however, is a full build that uses 12 levels of PrCs.  There's a pretty huge difference between two feats taken for the class and a 20 level build that's only got 8 levels of the class in question (10 of Illythid Shaper, 2 of Warshaper).  Plus, with all those PrCs in there combined with the fact that I'm unfamiliar with the Psiwar itself, I'm having a tough time figuring out how much of that power comes from the psiwar and how much comes from the PrCs, and whether those PrCs can be considered to be PsiWar PrCs   or just general PrCs that the PsiWar gets into.  Like, is it like a Binder 1/Shugenja 4/Anima Mage 10/Tenebrous Apostate 5 with the Divine Adaptation of Anima Mage?  In that case, it's really the PrCs that make it strong, not the Shugenja.  Or is it more like a Bard 10/ Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8, where the PrCs exist because of the base class in the first place?  Still working that out.

Right now all I can see is that the King of Smack is a build that does a lot of damage, but how does that rank up to, say, the Barbarian or Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker, who can also do stupidly high amounts of charge damage and is, in my mind, on the lower end of Tier 4 because that's all he does? 

Which is fine but that is one highly specific combo, further it really works better if you're a crusader with a few levels of bard and song of the white raven. That adds to the crusader in my book.

Well, I like a lot of other aspects as well.  Bardic Knack combined with Jack of all Trades is another great one... now you have half your bard level in all skills (including autohypnosis, iajuitsu focus, and so on).  It depends on what you want to do.  A more melee character is going to go with Crusader/Bard, but a support and skills character is going to go more bard with maybe sublime chord for the spellcasting (and bards do having some nice spells in there... not Wizard nice, but still darn nice).

Thing is that even a moderately optimized use of the Claw series of powers + expansion  covers the melee combat aspect of the psiwar build. Huge Vampirc claws for the win.

Okay, so that's going to give you decent damage, standard reach, and since I know you've got Lion's Charge in there that's enough to be a decent charger (though claws won't give you double damage from power attack).  That's reasonably solid in combat.  Do the claws count as natural weapons?  That matters a lot with iterative attacks.

You can then spend the rest of your feats purchasing powerpoints/hit points/ and Utility Powers taken from any list up to 5th level. This is really good, especially if your type happens to be somthing other than humanoid, because of metamorphosis and metamorphic transfer by which you assume the (su) of a form you assume.
The most unfair example of this is the elan becoming a host of fucked up things but one of which is a Phasm which has
Alternate Form (Su) A phasm can assume any form of Large size or smaller as a standard action. A phasm can remain in its alternate form until it chooses to assume a new one or return to its natural form.
Which using this ability would then give you the (su) of anything in the game but cause it triggers the feat.

Ack.  Okay, I can see some obvious potencial here.  Clearly I need to research that one.

,but half-giants become real giants and dragonwrought cheese exists as well.
 The ultimate point is that psiwars are level 3 because they can spend a feat to buy a spell which in D&D is a pretty damn good trade. Futher they're mostly likely to do it because they get all the bonus feats.

This I'll look in to.

Moreover you state:

Where Bards tend to suffer is when unoptimized in kick in the door style games.

Well so do psychic warriors.

Fair enough.  As I said, I need to look over a lot of this, because again I'm not hugely familiar with psionics and so far all I've really gotten on PsiWars to date is a bunch of people saying "they're just more versitile Fighters with some extra punch" or "they're reasonably balanced melees" and a few saying "OMG they're Tier 2!" or "They're so awesome!"  So, getting specifics is handy.

JaronK

[Midnight_v]

  This is most refreshing coversation! K. K. hmmm :rolleyes K.

Well wait a minute.  I was talking about two feats.

Right you are, further they're not the only 2 feats that work with it.
However it has been used in your defense of the bard in appx. 6 posts. *Shrug*
I'm not trying to down play the bard I'm just saying the psiwar is on the same general power level.
Further I could argue that all the KoS is about using Karmic strike (robilars) and Claws of the vampire the bard and the psiwar are doing different Jobs but thier existance is lateral.
Mostly let us NOT down play the idea of being *Draconic & Exalted* it is the most effective use of Inspire courage, however and isn't this system to a degree about the "potential" of the individual class?

The King of Smack, however, is a full build that uses 12 levels of PrCs

It is a full build...
Jaronk? You may have not had time to really ever read the King of Smack thread, but in that thread the first KOS build is:
Psywar20 build (simplest)
Feats
1 Overchannel
1 Talented
2 Dodge
3 Combat Expertise
5 Karmic Strike
6 Improved Natural Attack (claw)
8 Combat Reflexes
9 Metamorphic Transfer
11 Expanded Knowledge or free feat
12 Weapon Focus (claw)
14 Rapidstrike (claw)
15 Improved Critical (claw)
17 Expanded Knowledge (Metamorphosis)
18 Expanded Knowledge or free feat
20 Improved Rapidstrike (claw)
Take a level of warshaper at level 21, then continue with epic psywar.
thats a quote from the build. Honestly though for my argument this is becoming a diversion. I'm not trying to discuss the KoS, really its just a point of reference to show people pushing the class for damage.

Right now all I can see is that the King of Smack is a build that does a lot of damage, but how does that rank up to, say, the Barbarian or Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker, who can also do stupidly high amounts of charge damage and is, in my mind, on the lower end of Tier 4 because that's all he does? 

Again I don't really want to debate the KOS but... Okay In that build the only psiwar powers discussed are Claws of beast/vampire/expansion and a purchased metamorphosis. That means he has 17 other psiwar powers for utility like dimensional slide and the such. There are also slots for expanded knowledge that lets you chose powers off any other psionic class powers list even the specialists ones. So the difference is the psiwar can manifest +10 Mage armor or  Hell Cast "Grease psionic" i.e(own target berserker) but moreso he's doing things like manifesting (casting) harassing casters and cretures with an antimagic-field-extralite that affects everyone but him *catapsi*, as well as teleporting and/or flying fro.
...and thats if you burn the bulk of your feat selection to optimize claws to do 72d6 damage healing you for half I'm pretty sure a non claw optimized build will use those feats to buy more powers or pps.

Which is fine but that is one highly specific combo, further it really works better if you're a crusader with a few levels of bard and song of the white raven. That adds to the crusader in my book.

Well, I like a lot of other aspects as well.

This is what irritated me about the post you approved on being excatly correct.But let me  change it a bit and maybe you'll see how unproductive it was to tell someone appealing the placement of a class.

Ask yourself, are you good with  bards?  Does that lead you to believe that they should be tier 3?  If so, they should be tier 4.  You are going to artificially inflate the status of classes that you are good with.  Me?  My monks are tier 3, easy.  But that doesn't make the class tier 3, the class is still tier 5.  You must lower the classes you are good with and that you like, to account for a better understanding of the class.
I say that right Jaron?
Exactly correct.

It terribly circular logic. You like the bard but and that may or maynot inflate your opinion of the class, but I'm not going to question your credibility like that... You say you're unfamiliar with the psiwar, so it takes some deliberation but not having a disinterest in a class may  or may not deflate your opinion of the class.

Okay, so that's going to give you decent damage, standard reach, and since I know you've got Lion's Charge in there that's enough to be a decent charger (though claws won't give you double damage from power attack).  That's reasonably solid in combat.  Do the claws count as natural weapons?  That matters a lot with iterative attacks.

Expansion can give you "HUGE" reach. Thats not standard reach. And if you're doing it right its a little better than decent damage. Claw of the Beast are Natural weapons, but you can also grow a bite and tentacle rakes from the class itself bite of the were wolf and form of doom...  all natural attacks and scaling but only the claws heal you but they heal you alot. Combat reflexes/Karmic strike/robilar's is better in this case as is agile riposte the power but who gives a damn you can dimesion door away. Or quickend teleport home as the mood suits you... or hell for that matter you have access to a contingency teleport! (the teleport trigger power)

Finally the Psychic warrior can choose to scry or die you, by purchasing the psionic version of scry and any one of the save or die powers.

Now no psiwar build will be able to do ALL of that but you can select several of those power sets to augment your impressive combat powers.
  They are not tier 2 because they can't cast create a plane of existance or stop time, or ascend to god hood. Hell I don't know they might be able to ascend I never used the psicrystal tricks...

I think I can clear some of this up with posting:
Psiwars get 6th level powers and have 3 feats with which to buy 5 level powers off anyones list but theoretically you might want to pick up some earlier as the 4th level psion list has fly dimension door and Metamorphosis if you're going that route.

On the topic of autohypnosis and diplomacy Someone said you don't have to be psionic to take it and you don't *shrug* but that irrelevant in this case because I'm discussing one class I'm not knocking the bard perse. I realize he bard has it's spot on tier 3 for a reason. Diplomacy optization is probbably something a psiwar could do to with the availability of feats at his disposal. Further "Most" diplomancers have items of bonus to diplomacy, so I mean skill in another sense is a cheese-y argument. Diplomacy beign the cheesiest, I could figure out a way to take iijustu focus if I wanted or any skill with the right feats and really The psiwar would be hurt if he spent all his feats regular feats becoming a diplomancer and his bonus feats expaning his knowledge. The bard has it on his list so ... Okay.
Skill optimization is not limited to one class really its a moot point.
I was pointing out that the psiwar had some out-of combat options as well as being strong at fisticuffs.

[JaronK]

First off, Bards are not a class I love a lot.  That would be Rogues, Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, and maybe Binders.  Bards are just a class I'm familiar with.  That's why I keep mentioning Words of Creation and Dragonfire Inspiration... they're not the only Inspire Courage boosters, they're just the two I know the best.  So, I'm not inflating Bards as I might do with a Dread Necromancer.

With Bards, they get the huge bonus of being able to fascinate the target and even hypnotize them prior to using Diplomacy... that's a pretty huge deal, making Bard levels important for most Diplomancer builds.  After all, Diplomacy only works if they listen.  It's not just that they have the skill, it's that their class abilities make them particularly good with the skill.

Autohypnosis is a nice one, but for the most part you only need a DC 15 for the best parts of it.  That's just 1 rank cross class, a +5 bonus, and a take 10.  Obviously easier if you have it as a class skill or have Bardic Knack, but not too hard for any wisdom based class or skill monkey.

Still, it'll take time to review the PsyWar, because again I'm really unfamiliar with it.

JaronK

[dman11235]

Actually, I'm starting to agree with Midnight a bit on psywar.  Low tier 3.

[Midnight_v]

Hey! Don't go gettin' all riled up. It wasn't meant as an attack. I was more attacking what he said.
See, it is insulting after all. That was the first thing I thought too, First off psiwars aren't a class i love a lot. I was just willing to give the list a good overlook noticed it out of place blah blah blae etc...

Ironically we love the same characters acually Dred Necros/Binders are my favorites too but I've never played a beguiler... and I think rogue is the class that sits perfectly in the center of all d&d classes and for that I started to love it. For nosolgia I love barbarians as well!
BTW...
I Wasn't trying to badger you into changing it right now or anything,you know?
I was just doing as you'd suggest previously in tryinh my best to "Make a good" argument.
 You don't have to defend the bard anymore, I'm sold. Its strong tier 3, I never realized it was doing so much until I really started looking at it this last day or so for our discussion.
Autohypnosis is cool and easy to get but hey, psiwars get it so I mentioned it, and its good they get it cheap cause they don't have many skill points... not that they need them perse.
I do hate how people say "Oh its just a fighter" its a pretty bad comparison overall.
Well I guess thats it. Let me know what you decide.

[JaronK]

Hey! Don't go gettin' all riled up. It wasn't meant as an attack. I was more attacking what he said.

Wait, who's getting riled up?

See, it is insulting after all.

Wait, what is?  If it's the liking classes thing, that's something that comes up a lot for me... most people come in with "this class is too low" and that's what's going on.

 

I Wasn't trying to badger you into changing it right now or anything,you know?
I was just doing as you'd suggest previously in tryinh my best to "Make a good" argument.

Well, again, I'm going to take a bit (especially since I'm working all weekend quite a lot) but you have indeed made a few very solid arguements.

Autohypnosis is cool and easy to get but hey, psiwars get it so I mentioned it, and its good they get it cheap cause they don't have many skill points... not that they need them perse.

Oh, it's certainly good.  It's not Diplomacy good, and probably not UMD good, but it's still a solid skill (something that's so very nice to see).  Probably Disguise good (talk about an under rated skill... there's tons of magic that sees through illusions and magical disguises, but almost none that sees through mundane disguises).

I do hate how people say "Oh its just a fighter" its a pretty bad comparison overall.

Well it's certainly not "just a Fighter."

Well I guess thats it. Let me know what you decide.

It'll take time, and I'd love it if others can weigh in on it too.

JaronK