Author Topic: Tier System for Classes  (Read 620567 times)

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Bozwevial

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #560 on: July 22, 2009, 12:41:15 PM »
You only need one of those, all of them will have the warlock or adept crying in the corner. Well maybe not the adept.

So a Truenamer should not be playable straight out of the box?

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50% shot is what the designers were shooting at, for some reason or another, so that means the class works as it was designed with fairly minimal effort. With that said, targeting your self will be at 5 or higher the first time.  Gate is at 45, so you need to roll one or higher. Solid Fog is 40, and tons of magic armor and weapons have caster levels that are fairly low. +5 weapons are CL 15 I believe.

You realize what you're saying here, don't you? Imagine if a fighter had a 50% chance to hit with his first attack each day. Or a rogue had a 50% chance of sneak attacking someone the first time he tried it each day. And those chances decreased. Yep, seems perfectly balanced to me.

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This is at level 20 when it gets gate, with the master work tool it gets 2 gates a day as a spell like ability, which doesn't cost experience, after which it will need to roll two higher than one for each additional gate it casts. Even at 50/50 I would say that Gate is worth it. It also has 5 uses of solid fog, or 10 uses of a burst trip effect. At 15 it should be succeeding on 3s if it has a luck stone. There is also the option of a self buff of +5 for 5 rounds and skill shards for when it faces a creature of a higher CR.

The Healer also gets Gate. Three levels before the Truenamer. More notably, the Healer doesn't have to make a fairly difficult roll to use Gate. And there are ways around the XP cost. Dweomerkeeper, for example.

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Oh darn its not at tier one power, some how I will have to continue on. It is for the most part only the last 5 and levels  that are like this, assuming a true speak item at 3.

You're damned right, it's not at Tier 1 power. Neither is it at Tier 2. Or 3. Because last I checked, none of those classes needed such significant investment to use a primary class feature.

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Unless he just started at 20, he should have realized how his checks were sliding and invested a little bit more.

I cannot believe I'm doing this, but let me point to the Fighter as an example of better mechanical design.

The rolls he cares about most, attack rolls, improve at each level. So does the Truenamer's skill check. (Of course, the Fighter doesn't have to spend skill points to increase his attack roll, but we'll ignore that.) Now, AC generally goes up each CR. So does the Truespeech DC. The problem is, AC does not scale as fast as CR does. The tarrasque? CR 20, Truespeech check with DC 55. Armor Class? 35. Pit fiends! Also a DC 55 check, but with an AC of 40. More to the point, the enemy's AC does not rise after every successful attack. Sure, your iteratives will have lower bonuses, but they reset the next round. Still an AC of 40 versus a Truespeech check of 55--oh, wait, I'm sorry, Tommy! You now have to roll a 57. Assuming you made your roll last round. And assuming you're still alive, since you've been spending gold on your primary class feature and not as much of the other nifty things that other classes get.

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It is a strong suggestion not a rule, and your right on the greater amulet. I looked at the price to make on it. I consider the item very high priority, and it needs to be picked up ASAP.

Of course the amulet is a high priority item. It's a crutch to bring you closer to something approaching balanced.

JaronK is correct here, and I'm not saying that you aren't either, lans--it is entirely possible to optimize a Truenamer to competent levels--but that takes a fair degree of optimization skill. Taken straight from Tome of Magic, the Truenamer is quite weak, if not altogether broken.

lans

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #561 on: July 22, 2009, 01:42:13 PM »
You only need one of those, all of them will have the warlock or adept crying in the corner. Well maybe not the adept.

So a Truenamer should not be playable straight out of the box?

It is playable out of the box, it is just a little bit weak. Though if you consider item familiar part of the box its decent.

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50% shot is what the designers were shooting at, for some reason or another, so that means the class works as it was designed with fairly minimal effort. With that said, targeting your self will be at 5 or higher the first time.  Gate is at 45, so you need to roll one or higher. Solid Fog is 40, and tons of magic armor and weapons have caster levels that are fairly low. +5 weapons are CL 15 I believe.

You realize what you're saying here, don't you? Imagine if a fighter had a 50% chance to hit with his first attack each day. Or a rogue had a 50% chance of sneak attacking someone the first time he tried it each day. And those chances decreased. Yep, seems perfectly balanced to me[/quote] It is how the class was meant to function, I'm trying to find the quote. Though that is only at 20 when they get gate at a fairly low DC. I figure them needing 2-4 lower than 11. A roll of 7 for a save or suck doesn't seem too abysmal to me.


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This is at level 20 when it gets gate, with the master work tool it gets 2 gates a day as a spell like ability, which doesn't cost experience, after which it will need to roll two higher than one for each additional gate it casts. Even at 50/50 I would say that Gate is worth it. It also has 5 uses of solid fog, or 10 uses of a burst trip effect. At 15 it should be succeeding on 3s if it has a luck stone. There is also the option of a self buff of +5 for 5 rounds and skill shards for when it faces a creature of a higher CR.

The Healer also gets Gate. Three levels before the Truenamer. More notably, the Healer doesn't have to make a fairly difficult roll to use Gate. And there are ways around the XP cost. Dweomerkeeper, for example.

The Truenamers effectiveness slides back as he levels up. At 16 it will need 1-5 with our numbers.
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Oh darn its not at tier one power, some how I will have to continue on. It is for the most part only the last 5 and levels  that are like this, assuming a true speak item at 3.

You're damned right, it's not at Tier 1 power. Neither is it at Tier 2. Or 3. Because last I checked, none of those classes needed such significant investment to use a primary class feature.




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Unless he just started at 20, he should have realized how his checks were sliding and invested a little bit more.

I cannot believe I'm doing this, but let me point to the Fighter as an example of better mechanical design.

The rolls he cares about most, attack rolls, improve at each level. So does the Truenamer's skill check. (Of course, the Fighter doesn't have to spend skill points to increase his attack roll, but we'll ignore that.) Now, AC generally goes up each CR. So does the Truespeech DC. The problem is, AC does not scale as fast as CR does. The tarrasque? CR 20, Truespeech check with DC 55. Armor Class? 35. Pit fiends! Also a DC 55 check, but with an AC of 40. More to the point, the enemy's AC does not rise after every successful attack. Sure, your iteratives will have lower bonuses, but they reset the next round. Still an AC of 40 versus a Truespeech check of 55--oh, wait, I'm sorry, Tommy! You now have to roll a 57. Assuming you made your roll last round. And assuming you're still alive, since you've been spending gold on your primary class feature and not as much of the other nifty things that other classes get.
A truespeak check should be higher than a weapon attack. 23 vs 20,Intlegence versus strength, +10 versus +5, skill focus versus weapon focus. Which still leaves it a little bit short, like an AC of 45 would be comparable.

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It is a strong suggestion not a rule, and your right on the greater amulet. I looked at the price to make on it. I consider the item very high priority, and it needs to be picked up ASAP.

Of course the amulet is a high priority item. It's a crutch to bring you closer to something approaching balanced.

JaronK is correct here, and I'm not saying that you aren't either, lans--it is entirely possible to optimize a Truenamer to competent levels--but that takes a fair degree of optimization skill. Taken straight from Tome of Magic, the Truenamer is quite weak, if not altogether broken.
I'm not saying that they were tier 4, or any thing. In fact with this guide it will help DMs decide on what tier truenamer is in their campaign. I believe that the true Namer has very clear levels to its power depending on build.
Custom items and/or item familiar-Tier 2-3 A subpar sorcerer that ignores SR and has autoquicken.
When they can get there check on a 1 or less I think they are tier 3.
Optimal race, and/or dark speech tier 4 Can make checks pretty well. Needs a 3 at 20th, 1 at 17.
Normal campaign Tier 5>> I think that this is what your build+a luck stone and ioun stone would be about. Got  reliable battle field control
Low magic campaign tier 6. You have out of combat healing, and difficult to pull off battle field control. stronger body than the commoner
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lans

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #562 on: July 22, 2009, 02:48:03 PM »
At level 20 you could get a +30 amulet for just 90K. Sure that's a lot, but it's not unfathomable, and it will mean you really will be using your top utterances a few times per day, even without an item familiar. With an item familiar it's just that much better.

Only if your DM allows custom magic items.  I've found that's pretty rare, but it happens.  But that's exactly what I'm talking about.  Truenamers who can have access to magic marts and custom items are one power level, while Truenamers who don't get that or Item Familiars are at a completely different level.  It's very DM dependent.

JaronK

If this is to provide a ranking system for DMs then they should know what they are going to allow, and there are roughly 4-6 options of what they can allow/disallow. Which means that truenamers just require 5 times the normal effort to rank them, but once they are ranked with why they are ranked then DMs should be able to judge what tier they are in their campaign.
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #563 on: July 22, 2009, 03:10:49 PM »
I figured Truenamer would be a pain from the start...

Here's an idea: how about we rank them according to how many truespeech-enhancing items are allowed?
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lans

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #564 on: July 22, 2009, 03:15:46 PM »
I figured Truenamer would be a pain from the start...

Here's an idea: how about we rank them according to how many truespeech-enhancing items are allowed?
Pretty much, but more on what the Truenamer is going to have to roll to reliably affect things.
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #565 on: July 22, 2009, 03:28:45 PM »
I figured Truenamer would be a pain from the start...

Here's an idea: how about we rank them according to how many truespeech-enhancing items are allowed?
Pretty much, but more on what the Truenamer is going to have to roll to reliably affect things.

And that's directly proportional to how many items are allowed, otherwise Tommy has no means of using his gawddanged class features. Either way, the amount of reliance on magic items this class gets makes me think it's potentially on par with a fighter. MAYBE.
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Bozwevial

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #566 on: July 22, 2009, 03:32:08 PM »
I figured Truenamer would be a pain from the start...

Here's an idea: how about we rank them according to how many truespeech-enhancing items are allowed?
Pretty much, but more on what the Truenamer is going to have to roll to reliably affect things.

And that's directly proportional to how many items are allowed, otherwise Tommy has no means of using his gawddanged class features. Either way, the amount of reliance on magic items this class gets makes me think it's potentially on par with a fighter. MAYBE.

Precisely. It is possible to optimize this class through skill-boosting shenanigans, but that requires a bunch of stuff that isn't from ToM. Like Item Familiar, or Exemplar, or Elder Evils. Someone using the bare minimum of sourcebooks needed to play a Truenamer is going to have a difficult time of it.

Kuroimaken

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #567 on: July 22, 2009, 03:38:14 PM »
Let's try this. Rank the Truenamer in these situations.

Bare: Using nothing but Core and ToM. No magic items.

Skill-boosted: Using skill-boosting shenanigans, but no magic items yet.

Magically-enhanced: Core and ToM, but with magic items.

Screw this: Skill-boosting shenanigans plus all the magic items you can get your grubby mittens on.

That should give us a more accurate reply than the discussion we currently have going on - though not as accurate as can be.
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lans

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #568 on: July 22, 2009, 03:57:01 PM »

Precisely. It is possible to optimize this class through skill-boosting shenanigans, but that requires a bunch of stuff that isn't from ToM. Like Item Familiar, or Exemplar, or Elder Evils. Someone using the bare minimum of sourcebooks needed to play a Truenamer is going to have a difficult time of it.
Item familiar is in the SRD, which makes Tome of Magic + SRD very playable. +46 from item familiar and ranks alone.Add in a 16 starting Intellegence, skill focus and a headband and it has a 55, leaving it autosucceding.
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lans

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #569 on: July 22, 2009, 04:02:35 PM »
I figured Truenamer would be a pain from the start...

Here's an idea: how about we rank them according to how many truespeech-enhancing items are allowed?
Pretty much, but more on what the Truenamer is going to have to roll to reliably affect things.

And that's directly proportional to how many items are allowed, otherwise Tommy has no means of using his gawddanged class features. Either way, the amount of reliance on magic items this class gets makes me think it's potentially on par with a fighter. MAYBE.
23 ranks +4 intellegence + 6 from marshall+3 from skill focus+3 from illuminian+8 from elder evils,+2 from masterwork item, + 1 from illiterate, +1 from open minded +4 from exemplar=55 +2-6 for saying own truename=57-61

Then we can add magic items, like the one truenaming item.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 04:08:40 PM by lans »
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Bozwevial

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #570 on: July 22, 2009, 04:14:29 PM »
Quick contribution: Exemplar dip would fall under categories 2 and 4, no?

Item familiar is in the SRD, which makes Tome of Magic + SRD very playable. +46 from item familiar and ranks alone.Add in a 16 starting Intellegence, skill focus and a headband and it has a 55, leaving it autosucceding.

But it's not in the core rulebooks, which are the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide, and the Monster Manual. It's also not in the Tome of Magic. It's from Unearthed Arcana, and thus does not fall under core.

lans

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #571 on: July 22, 2009, 04:27:53 PM »
Quick contribution: Exemplar dip would fall under categories 2 and 4, no?

Item familiar is in the SRD, which makes Tome of Magic + SRD very playable. +46 from item familiar and ranks alone.Add in a 16 starting Intellegence, skill focus and a headband and it has a 55, leaving it autosucceding.

But it's not in the core rulebooks, which are the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide, and the Monster Manual. It's also not in the Tome of Magic. It's from Unearthed Arcana, and thus does not fall under core.

Minimum sourcebooks, srd+ ToM is 2-3 less than ToM+core.
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lans

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #572 on: July 22, 2009, 04:33:34 PM »
Let's try this. Rank the Truenamer in these situations.

Bare: Using nothing but Core and ToM. No magic items.

Skill-boosted: Using skill-boosting shenanigans, but no magic items yet.

Magically-enhanced: Core and ToM, but with magic items.

Screw this: Skill-boosting shenanigans plus all the magic items you can get your grubby mittens on.

That should give us a more accurate reply than the discussion we currently have going on - though not as accurate as can be.
That's actually pretty good. I would put Bare at Tier 6, skill boosted at 4, magically enhanced at 5 and screw this at 3, maybe 2 do to autoquicken.

Edit- I think there might be more options than those 4, like screw this with out custom items.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 05:03:12 PM by lans »
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Bozwevial

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #573 on: July 22, 2009, 04:43:57 PM »
Quick contribution: Exemplar dip would fall under categories 2 and 4, no?

Item familiar is in the SRD, which makes Tome of Magic + SRD very playable. +46 from item familiar and ranks alone.Add in a 16 starting Intellegence, skill focus and a headband and it has a 55, leaving it autosucceding.

But it's not in the core rulebooks, which are the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide, and the Monster Manual. It's also not in the Tome of Magic. It's from Unearthed Arcana, and thus does not fall under core.

Minimum sourcebooks, srd+ ToM is 2-3 less than ToM+core.


What part of "Core" escaped your attention? Can you go out and buy the SRD in a store?

In point of fact, you cannot play D&D solely with the SRD, primarily because there are some necessary rules not authorized to be released in the SRD that one would have to buy the core rulebooks to find.

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #574 on: July 22, 2009, 05:00:47 PM »
Quick contribution: Exemplar dip would fall under categories 2 and 4, no?

Item familiar is in the SRD, which makes Tome of Magic + SRD very playable. +46 from item familiar and ranks alone.Add in a 16 starting Intellegence, skill focus and a headband and it has a 55, leaving it autosucceding.

But it's not in the core rulebooks, which are the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide, and the Monster Manual. It's also not in the Tome of Magic. It's from Unearthed Arcana, and thus does not fall under core.

Minimum sourcebooks, srd+ ToM is 2-3 less than ToM+core.


What part of "Core" escaped your attention?
What part of "Someone using the bare minimum of sourcebooks needed to play a Truenamer" escaped your attention?

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Can you go out and buy the SRD in a store?
Oddly enough you don't need to.

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In point of fact, you cannot play D&D solely with the SRD, primarily because there are some necessary rules not authorized to be released in the SRD that one would have to buy the core rulebooks to find.
Like what? As a player what rule do I need the core books for?
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Bozwevial

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #575 on: July 22, 2009, 05:23:18 PM »
What part of "Someone using the bare minimum of sourcebooks needed to play a Truenamer" escaped your attention?

Oddly enough, the SRD is not a sourcebook.

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Like what? As a player what rule do I need the core books for?

Oh, I don't know. Product identity monsters like the beholder, or the mind flayer? Or how about rules for character creation, or leveling up, or experience tables?

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #576 on: July 22, 2009, 05:33:45 PM »
What part of "Someone using the bare minimum of sourcebooks needed to play a Truenamer" escaped your attention?

Oddly enough, the SRD is not a sourcebook.

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Like what? As a player what rule do I need the core books for?

Oh, I don't know. Product identity monsters like the beholder, or the mind flayer? Or how about rules for character creation, or leveling up, or experience tables?
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Midnight_v

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #577 on: July 22, 2009, 05:54:08 PM »
Hmm... I think...
That after reading both arguments
1. I think I agree that srd should be acceptable.
Item familiar is really from what? UA?
Is wbl really not in the srd?
*Damn its not!  :lol

2. I don't think that item familiar should be counted regardless of that fact.


  Also, the srd is typically used for online discussions because well its online and a source we can all use and verify. This is good because it stops arguments based on the variance of print runs.
i.e. "My phb says *This* right on page 154" "WHAT? Mine says *this* I'm holding it right now! You're lying!"

 Seriously though... item familiar probbably isn't something that should be included.  Though if you insist maybe we can make one with and one without. (With the acknowedgement that it isn't "core" in the traditional sense for people who DON"T use the srd but own books instead.)
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Bozwevial

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #578 on: July 22, 2009, 05:59:16 PM »
I believe "Core" is generally defined as the three rulebooks necessary to play the game. Correct me if I'm wrong, but those rules mentioned are, I believe, not found anywhere else. (Well, WBL is in the Magic Item Compendium, but that's beside the point.) Thus, Item Familiar, which is from Unearthed Arcana as Midnight stated, should not be counted as part of Core. You can certainly use Item Familiar in Kuroimaken's "Screw This" category, but nowhere else.

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #579 on: July 22, 2009, 06:00:54 PM »
Besides, you kinda need WBL to determine what kind of skill boosters you can afford.
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