Tier System for Classes

[lans]

The Tier system is based only on everyone in the party having a similar level of optimization... not any static amount.  A poorly optimized Wizard is roughly equivalent to a poorly optimized Cleric, and far stronger than a poorly optimized Fighter.  The same is true if all three are heavily optimized.  Optimization only moves you up or down a tier if the rest of your party isn't optimized the same amount.

Beguilers, warmages, and Dreadencros get the things that make them tier 3 and 4 as part of the class with no way to loose it. They can make the worst possible choices at every possible choice save for starting stats and they would still have the about the same power level versatility as. A wizard that choose the worst possible choices save for stat allotment would be much worse off.

And yeah, I did make the Truenamer a footnote in the Tier system, and hopefully now you guys can see why.

Because you didn't want to deal with it? Which is understandable.

[lans]

Look, can we just leave the ₁ as a footnote and move on?



¹ truenamer

No, because it deserves to be on the list for completionist reasons.

[Midnight_v]

And yeah, I did make the Truenamer a footnote in the Tier system, and hopefully now you guys can see why.

Yeah cause you dont' want hardcore truenamer fans whining the same argumments over and over again?

[Brainpiercing]

Ok, so I agree with the fighter comparison:
A fighter without toys is at low levels... alright. But with every level,he just begins to suck more. A truenamer... well, I think he'll eventually be at least situationally more useful than a fighter without toys.
So put him in with the fighter with fair warning that given the right gear he might just smash your world at high levels

[j0lt]

Option #2: Partial Gestalt. Tier 1s and 2s are normal. Tier 3s and 4s may gestalt their levels with an NPC class of their choice (Adept, Expert, Commoner, or Warrior). Tier 5s and 6s may gestalt their levels with any other Tier 5 or 6 class of their choice, or Adepts. Result? Again, a healthy power boost for the low Tiers. Suddenly the Rogues can have full BAB and lots of hitpoints, and the Monks can have Fighter powers too. Very handy. Plus, multiclassing works... it's just that if you start as a Fighter//Monk and want to take a level of, say, Ranger, that level must have an NPC class on the other side. If for some reason you wanted Sorcerer, you wouldn't be gestalt at all in that level. Lord knows Fighters get a lot better when they can be Fighter//Monks or Fighter//CA Ninjas or whatever.

I really like this idea!  If I were in 3.5 group with serious optimizers, I'd probably suggest this idea.

[lans]

Ok, so I agree with the fighter comparison:
A fighter without toys is at low levels... alright. But with every level,he just begins to suck more. A truenamer... well, I think he'll eventually be at least situationally more useful than a fighter without toys.
So put him in with the fighter with fair warning that given the right gear he might just smash your world at high levels

I have slight issue with this. The game assumes WBL, shouldn't we also have minimally optimized equipment? A truenamer only needs one 10k item to function,  an item that is described as "a must have" by the book it was printed in, and an item it is quite capable of making itself. At the very least it should be assumed to have it from when he can make it onward.

[JaronK]

I dunno, I can make a perfectly effective Fighter with no magic items at all (a flying mount, a lance, a small Fighter so the mount fits places, and a charger build).  I mean, there are obvious issues there (ethereals, vulnerable will save, etc), but he gets his job done (hurting stuff).  That's hardly the case with the Truenamer.  Consider that a Halfling Fighter 6 with Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack, Spirited Charge, and some other feat, using a Masterwork Lance, can still do 36 damage from Power Attack alone while riding a Warbeast Desmoderu Hunting Bat (which costs around 500gp) or similar.  Obviously you could do it on a Riding Dog, but the first flyer to show up would be serious trouble.  If you don't like the mount thing, how about a Dragonborn Orc with the Wings aspect, who takes Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Headlong Rush, Leap Attack, and a few other feats?  All he needs is a reach weapon.

Just saying, it can be done.

JaronK

[Braithwaite]

I have slight issue with this. The game assumes WBL, shouldn't we also have minimally optimized equipment? A truenamer only needs one 10k item to function,  an item that is described as "a must have" by the book it was printed in, and an item it is quite capable of making itself. At the very least it should be assumed to have it from when he can make it onward.

I don't know ANYTHING about truenamer except bits I read at the board, but your post 2 pages ago says that a truenamer needs a 50 check to be playable. It then says that a 45 check needs 140k in items dedicated to TS, including a couple of particular toys that would have to be created.

[Brainpiercing]

I dunno, I can make a perfectly effective Fighter with no magic items at all (a flying mount, a lance, a small Fighter so the mount fits places, and a charger build).  I mean, there are obvious issues there (ethereals, vulnerable will save, etc), but he gets his job done (hurting stuff).  That's hardly the case with the Truenamer.  Consider that a Halfling Fighter 6 with Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack, Spirited Charge, and some other feat, using a Masterwork Lance, can still do 36 damage from Power Attack alone while riding a Warbeast Desmoderu Hunting Bat (which costs around 500gp) or similar.  Obviously you could do it on a Riding Dog, but the first flyer to show up would be serious trouble.  If you don't like the mount thing, how about a Dragonborn Orc with the Wings aspect, who takes Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Headlong Rush, Leap Attack, and a few other feats?  All he needs is a reach weapon.

Just saying, it can be done.

JaronK

Well, as usually with non-magical beatsticks, it sure can be done, and it can be done at lower levels, that fighter is easily Tier 3 by optimisation. The Truenamer can't keep up at that level. However, eventually I believe he can, which could seriously upset a general Tier 5-6 campaign, and mess with Tier 3-4, and people should know this by looking at the Tiers. And Fighters have real trouble reaching above 3, while the Truenamer can gate like a Tier 1, with the exception of lacking a time stop.

[lans]

I dunno, I can make a perfectly effective Fighter with no magic items at all (a flying mount, a lance, a small Fighter so the mount fits places, and a charger build).  I mean, there are obvious issues there (ethereals, vulnerable will save, etc), but he gets his job done (hurting stuff).  That's hardly the case with the Truenamer.  Consider that a Halfling Fighter 6 with Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack, Spirited Charge, and some other feat, using a Masterwork Lance, can still do 36 damage from Power Attack alone while riding a Warbeast Desmoderu Hunting Bat (which costs around 500gp) or similar.  Obviously you could do it on a Riding Dog, but the first flyer to show up would be serious trouble.  If you don't like the mount thing, how about a Dragonborn Orc with the Wings aspect, who takes Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Headlong Rush, Leap Attack, and a few other feats?  All he needs is a reach weapon.

Just saying, it can be done.

JaronK

A no wealth campaign is not even remotely standard. A truenamer is mostly dependent on one item that the book says is a must have, and the book is not exaggerating when it says that. At level 7 the DC is going to be 29 versus 10 ranks, 4 intelligence mod, 3 skill focus, and a master work tool so a 19.  Thats 50/50 on the first check against against a CR 7 , if its facing 4 CR 4s the DC drops to 23 which is 80/20 chance at success, so still not so bad. Except against "boss" type of fights.

At level 7 it can craft the item, a reasonable build should have either obtained it or made it by then.  

If it can't then it will be more and more regulated to out of combat healer with a couple of tricks, and a better body, though I don't know how well that compares to a unicorn. At level 8 it will pick up shockwave, which has a dc of 30 to go off, if it boosted intelligence then that has 55% chance of success, the other ones are still 50/50 because of the intelligence boost. Agitate metal obtained at 7th level has a DC of 25 against nonmagical items..

It can heal at level 12  19x5x(3+PCs+Highest LA of the party) ,  it can also rebuild items potentially. So I guess if it doesn't have the item it is tier 5. It heals, then it can do a couple of other things unreliably. Until it gets gate. I think a 50/50 gate is tier 3ish. Sound right? Becomes a tier 2 when it gets gate just like everybody else, and  a tier 3 if it only uses gate once. For a gibbering mouther form.

[lans]

I have slight issue with this. The game assumes WBL, shouldn't we also have minimally optimized equipment? A truenamer only needs one 10k item to function,  an item that is described as "a must have" by the book it was printed in, and an item it is quite capable of making itself. At the very least it should be assumed to have it from when he can make it onward.

I don't know ANYTHING about truenamer except bits I read at the board, but your post 2 pages ago says that a truenamer needs a 50 check to be playable. It then says that a 45 check needs 140k in items dedicated to TS, including a couple of particular toys that would have to be created.

That was assuming a 16 intelligence and no racial modifiers to the skill, not buffing intelligence with levels, and buying a cloak of charisma for the DCs to save against the lexions. The cloak costs 36, the luck stone and ioun stone cost 50k, one can make up for a lack of a headband with another 2 to intelligence, lets say from gray elf, and 4 points as it levels up, so 72k wasn't necessary, and 2 points to the skill costed 50k.

So with a starting intelligence of 18, points from level up, skill focus, masterwork tools, and a +10 item it should have a check of 44 for 1050, and a bit more focus on intelligence. It needs to roll an 11 to make the check succeed. With the Lexicon that has the most powers.

 The lexicons are the spell like abilities that the class gets. They are lacking in duration, and range.  They are in 3 different groupings, Evolving mind, crafted tool and perfect map, which affect  persons, things, places. In order to do them the classes have to make a skill check at 15+(2xCR) against npcs and against PCs they are 15+ (2xHD). Against items the dc is 25 if they are nonmagical and 15+(2xcl) if they are. With Places the DC is 25+ level of the lexicon. They have 4 levels so the highest is 45, which is Gate.



The Perfected Map lexicon which has shockwace transmute rock to mud, solid fog, control winds and gate in it at DCs of 30, 35, 40, 40 and 45.

[Midnight_v]

I'm sorry what tier do you think it shuold be Ians?

[lans]

I'm sorry what tier do you think it shuold be Ians?

I would go with tier 5 without the true speak item.  With it low tier 3, maybe tier 4.

[lans]

I dunno, I can make a perfectly effective Fighter with no magic items at all (a flying mount, a lance, a small Fighter so the mount fits places, and a charger build).  I mean, there are obvious issues there (ethereals, vulnerable will save, etc), but he gets his job done (hurting stuff).  That's hardly the case with the Truenamer.  Consider that a Halfling Fighter 6 with Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack, Spirited Charge, and some other feat, using a Masterwork Lance, can still do 36 damage from Power Attack alone while riding a Warbeast Desmoderu Hunting Bat (which costs around 500gp) or similar.  Obviously you could do it on a Riding Dog, but the first flyer to show up would be serious trouble.  If you don't like the mount thing, how about a Dragonborn Orc with the Wings aspect, who takes Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Headlong Rush, Leap Attack, and a few other feats?  All he needs is a reach weapon.

Just saying, it can be done.

JaronK

Sorry to reply to this post twice, but a truenamer at level 6 an illumian truenamer can have skill focus, masters will, chosen of evil, and evil brand, and power sigil, and some other feat can get a truenaming check of 9+4+3+3+2+8 for 29, which makes it succeed on -2. I consider these builds to be equal on an optimization level.

[Samb]

Honestly I can't say this whole tier holds much validity from my experience.  I appreciate the thought behind it as having a munchkin in a group of non-min/maxers does have its unique problems some form of guidance for GMs is a boon indeed.  However, the issue seems to be more about the players themselves, and level of power gaming rather than the classes themselves.

First, the classes seem to be based only on one person's experience (JaronK's).  It is not unusual for him to be a bit bias or even anecdotal in nature.   It would be unreasonable to expect him to play all classes in equal amounts (in terms of number of encounters and CL) which is where a forum where others who have a greater understanding of the classes could contribute.  Unfortunately, JaronK has shown to be a bit resistant to take feedback on the system which greatly reduces its scope and sample size (the lower N is the less valid the conclusion for all your stat nerds).

Second, most real power gamers will not spend their entire careers in one base class.  To compare a barbarian 20 to a rogue 20 would be ridiculous because both don't exist.  The "barbarian 20" will prolly have some levels of fighter for bonus feats, 1-2 levels in warblade for the cool moves, and a bunch of levels in some PrC, lets say frenzied zerker.  In fact he may even have less levels as a barbarian than other classes, would he still count as a barbarian anymore?  Same with the "rogue 20"; some levels in swashbukler, fighter, swordsage, a bunch in nightsong enforcer, psywar for even more feats etc. The goal of the day is to either dip all over the place, take a PrC or do a lot of both.  Only a few classes would be encouraged to stay a base class and for them this tier system maybe more valid, but for the vast majority of non casters/gish, it would be hard pressed to justify that this system gives an accurate summary of their performance.

Third, how should equipment and materials be factored in.  This is a fantasy RPG and most adventurers are in it for the loot.  If an feat exists that would greatly increase your PC's/class' performance would you not be a fool to not take it?  In fact if there ever is an imbalance in gameplay for the group, items are the greatest equalizer a GM has on his hands.  I can understand the arguement "you are judging the weapon and not the hand that holds it" to a certain degree, but you could say the same about a feat or a spell.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Multiclassing, when competently done, tends to increase you to a tier above the highest of the component classes.

Prestige classes are dealt with in the sister thread.

[dark_samuari]

Third, how should equipment and materials be factored in.  This is a fantasy RPG and most adventurers are in it for the loot.  If an feat exists that would greatly increase your PC's/class' performance would you not be a fool to not take it?  In fact if there ever is an imbalance in gameplay for the group, items are the greatest equalizer a GM has on his hands.  I can understand the arguement "you are judging the weapon and not the hand that holds it" to a certain degree, but you could say the same about a feat or a spell.

I think an issue that some have responded to here is that a feat is almost never in jeopardy of not being available. At level nine I can have my rogue take two-weapon fighting, there's nothing mechanically or even thematically that would stop this selection.

But to say that your character will have a specific item is going beyond this, it's something completely out of their hands and is beyond the extension of themselves. Some people may view this in a perspective of the player being cocky with their confidence that they will possess an item they need whenever they want.

And I agree with you on your initial view point that DnD is based around treasure & wealth of character but as a supplement, not a substitution, of a character's strengths.

[Samb]

Third, how should equipment and materials be factored in.  This is a fantasy RPG and most adventurers are in it for the loot.  If an feat exists that would greatly increase your PC's/class' performance would you not be a fool to not take it?  In fact if there ever is an imbalance in gameplay for the group, items are the greatest equalizer a GM has on his hands.  I can understand the arguement "you are judging the weapon and not the hand that holds it" to a certain degree, but you could say the same about a feat or a spell.

I think an issue that some have responded to here is that a feat is almost never in jeopardy of not being available. At level nine I can have my rogue take two-weapon fighting, there's nothing mechanically or even thematically that would stop this selection.

But to say that your character will have a specific item is going beyond this, it's something completely out of their hands and is beyond the extension of themselves. Some people may view this in a perspective of the player being cocky with their confidence that they will possess an item they need whenever they want.

And I agree with you on your initial view point that DnD is based around treasure & wealth of character but as a supplement, not a substitution, of a character's strengths.

If this thread is really to act as a guild so GM balancing power levels of players then whatever gear that will make a crappy class better should be available or you fail at giving your players a meaningful experience.  If all the members of the party are contributing equally (ie playing their roles well) then there is no need for "custom" weapons.  If feats are allowed simply they are printed then why are items any different?  Also assuming that all feats and ACFs will be available is premature as well.  My GM bans all item creation feats, just so he can have better control over what items we get (and the fact that you like your items more if you earned them).

My stance is that the OP wanted to make a guild on party balancing, not for comparing who's pet classes are better.  Items are the perfect way to do this and well in a GMs control, if a GM insists on restricting a specific item even if it makes you on par (not exceeding) with other members then you may not be a very good GM.

[Soda]

If this thread is really to act as a guild so GM balancing power levels of players then whatever gear that will make a crappy class better should be available or you fail at giving your players a meaningful experience.  If all the members of the party are contributing equally (ie playing their roles well) then there is no need for "custom" weapons.  If feats are allowed simply they are printed then why are items any different?  Also assuming that all feats and ACFs will be available is premature as well.  My GM bans all item creation feats, just so he can have better control over what items we get (and the fact that you like your items more if you earned them).

Aren't you contradicting yourself here? You think players should always have access to the gear they want but your own DM restricts item creation "just so he can have better control over what items [you] get".
What if you played a truenamer and your DM wouldn't give you the items in question and wouldn't let you craft them?
Isn't that exactly what the debate is about?

[lans]

If this thread is really to act as a guild so GM balancing power levels of players then whatever gear that will make a crappy class better should be available or you fail at giving your players a meaningful experience.  If all the members of the party are contributing equally (ie playing their roles well) then there is no need for "custom" weapons.  If feats are allowed simply they are printed then why are items any different?  Also assuming that all feats and ACFs will be available is premature as well.  My GM bans all item creation feats, just so he can have better control over what items we get (and the fact that you like your items more if you earned them).

Aren't you contradicting yourself here? You think players should always have access to the gear they want but your own DM restricts item creation "just so he can have better control over what items [you] get".
What if you played a truenamer and your DM wouldn't give you the items in question and wouldn't let you craft them?
Isn't that exactly what the debate is about?

I would say under that Sambs idea a truenamer would definitively get the truespeak item if it was in a party of beguilers, sorcs or druids, but not necessarily so if it was in a party of paladins and samurai. His proposal is to use control of wealth as a balance factor, like the alternative point buys and the limited gestalts.