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Bozwevial

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #580 on: July 22, 2009, 06:02:41 PM »
And the rules for character creation/leveling up, otherwise what's the point in the first place?

Midnight_v

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #581 on: July 22, 2009, 06:12:14 PM »
Quote from: Bozwevial
I believe "Core" is generally defined as the three rulebooks necessary to play the game. Correct me if I'm wrong, but those rules mentioned are, I believe, not found anywhere else. (Well, WBL is in the Magic Item Compendium, but that's beside the point.) Thus, Item Familiar, which is from Unearthed Arcana as Midnight stated, should not be counted as part of Core. You can certainly use Item Familiar in Kuroimaken's "Screw This" category, but nowhere else.

 Bozwevial is right. Thats only fair if we're following that paradigm of different items determining tier.
Though I'd like to offer, the entirety of the arugment... I mean the very fact that ANY class that basically comes down to "item optimization" should just lower it a tier automatically.
 I mean fuck, that sounds much like a "The fighter Sucks" thread argument doesn't it?
That is to say... can't we just give an "expert" enough items to make him a higher tier? Its kind of a poor position me thinks too.
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #582 on: July 22, 2009, 06:18:23 PM »
Wow, I started a fire and forgot to leave the fire extinguisher.

To clarify: by Core, I mean the three books. NOT SRD, NOT UA, NOT PHB2. PHB, DMG and MM ONLY.

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Quick contribution: Exemplar dip would fall under categories 2 and 4, no?

Yes, both for being outside of core and for involving optimization beyond taking only Truenamer levels. This also applies to Marshal dips and whatnot.

Item Familiar would probably only go into the "Screw This" section, since it crosses borders (it's both a feat AND an item, and therefore reaches optimization on both ends).
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That's actually pretty good. I would put Bare at Tier 6, skill boosted at 4, magically enhanced at 5 and screw this at 3, maybe 2 do to autoquicken.

Edit- I think there might be more options than those 4, like screw this with out custom items.

That's a good point, actually. But I'd put that as an aside, otherwise we might end up with WAY too many cathegories...
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lans

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #583 on: July 22, 2009, 11:15:55 PM »
What part of "Someone using the bare minimum of sourcebooks needed to play a Truenamer" escaped your attention?

Oddly enough, the SRD is not a sourcebook.
Which makes it one source book verses 4
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Like what? As a player what rule do I need the core books for?

Oh, I don't know. Product identity monsters like the beholder, or the mind flayer? Or how about rules for character creation, or leveling up, or experience tables?
I don't think any of those are needed for a player to play any class. Why does a player need to know the stats for a beholder?  You level up when the DM tells you you do, and you gain the experience that he assigns.  As for character creation, I guess you have point. I kind of know how to make characters so it isn't a rule set that I would look up.  My counter argument is do to the SRD not being a source book, core+ srd is the same number of source books as core.
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lans

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #584 on: July 22, 2009, 11:20:10 PM »
Bozwevial is right. Thats only fair if we're following that paradigm of different items determining tier.
Though I'd like to offer, the entirety of the arugment... I mean the very fact that ANY class that basically comes down to "item optimization" should just lower it a tier automatically.
 I mean fuck, that sounds much like a "The fighter Sucks" thread argument doesn't it?
That is to say... can't we just give an "expert" enough items to make him a higher tier? Its kind of a poor position me thinks too.
The expert can have WBL like all the other characters.
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lans

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #585 on: July 22, 2009, 11:24:26 PM »
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That's actually pretty good. I would put Bare at Tier 6, skill boosted at 4, magically enhanced at 5 and screw this at 3, maybe 2 do to autoquicken.

Edit- I think there might be more options than those 4, like screw this with out custom items.

That's a good point, actually. But I'd put that as an aside, otherwise we might end up with WAY too many cathegories...
Its only one or two additional categories, at this point at least. Truenamer might very well have its own grilled cheese thread by the time were done.
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Bozwevial

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #586 on: July 23, 2009, 01:11:59 AM »
What part of "Someone using the bare minimum of sourcebooks needed to play a Truenamer" escaped your attention?

Oddly enough, the SRD is not a sourcebook.
Which makes it one source book verses 4

You seem to have missed my point about the core books.

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Like what? As a player what rule do I need the core books for?

Oh, I don't know. Product identity monsters like the beholder, or the mind flayer? Or how about rules for character creation, or leveling up, or experience tables?
I don't think any of those are needed for a player to play any class. Why does a player need to know the stats for a beholder?  You level up when the DM tells you you do, and you gain the experience that he assigns.  As for character creation, I guess you have point. I kind of know how to make characters so it isn't a rule set that I would look up.  My counter argument is do to the SRD not being a source book, core+ srd is the same number of source books as core.

You can't play D&D with the SRD. You can play it with the Core books. The entire reason you are familiar with the process of creating a character, leveling up, and gaining experience is because of the Core books, not the SRD.

Optimator

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #587 on: July 23, 2009, 02:21:28 AM »
I think what he was trying to say is that the SRD is readily and freely available so it isn't unreasonable to assume access to it is allowed/available.  Maybe not.  I dunno.

Bozwevial

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #588 on: July 23, 2009, 02:23:10 AM »
I think what he was trying to say is that the SRD is readily and freely available so it isn't unreasonable to assume access to it is allowed/available.  Maybe not.  I dunno.

I'm willing to accept that. I'm just saying that you cannot include Item Familiar in the term "core".

Optimator

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #589 on: July 23, 2009, 02:40:09 AM »
I think what he was trying to say is that the SRD is readily and freely available so it isn't unreasonable to assume access to it is allowed/available.  Maybe not.  I dunno.

I'm willing to accept that. I'm just saying that you cannot include Item Familiar in the term "core".
Oh, for sure.

lans

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #590 on: July 23, 2009, 02:58:54 AM »
Laying out some numbers.

Enlarge, quicken, empower, extend, defensively,  ignore SR, and affecting 4 creatures
at 20th
DC 55+20+10+5+5+5+5+6=111 This is capstone skill check wise at 20th. 22 lower at 9th.
What tier would you assign a truenamer with 111 true name check? It has 18 uses of all its abilties before it has to start to worry about making checks or dropping quicken. Needs every trick to get this far, including item familiar, aging your self, and temp buffs, like heroism.
82 Is the most you can get with out item familiar and aging your self, and no temp buffs

74 is where auto quicken is, gets 290 uses before its needing to worry about making checks. At this point You are an illumian, illiterate, worhsiping elder evils, and an exemplar and marshall, or you can be PAO into a logokron

58-This is the most you can get with core+ ToM, with out relying on temp buffs.

54- Is were the skill needs to be at 20th level to not have to worry about making checks the first time it uses each ability, not counting the lexicons of the perfected map, which have much lower DCs. Illumian and illiterate, exemplar, marshal or elder evils. Core only can get this with PAO into a Loquasphinx on top of what it took to get to 50. Or by being a tiefling and going logokron on top of what it took to get to 45.

50 is where it needs to be at to be  playable to a reasonable degree at 20. Can be gotten  with the below and a maxed out intelligence. Which means the save DCs are lower by about 4-6 than if you were a spell caster. Or going out side of core

45-If your save DCs are high enough, then that might make up for the coin flipness. Can gate on a 1 the first time around, then a two. 28 uses of perfect map part reliably. Then you start to get into the iffy area. This is where wotc wanted you to be. This requires 23 ranks, skill focus, a +10 TS item, a luck stone, an ioun stone, and +7 from intelligence. So about 140k is going towards TS.

38- you put the most minimum effort possible into your TS. 23 skill ranks, a master work tool or a 14 Intelligence, a feat, and a magic item worth 1/75th of your gold that by flavor text all TNs obtain asap. Can Gate on a 7, solid fog and control winds on a 2, transmute rock to mud on a -3.  Can do some out of combat healing, 5 fail, 8 fail,  16 fail,  11 fail, 1 fail, 13 fail, 17 and you two are healing a hundred hp over the next 5 rounds.

33 you didn't get the feat and you put a ten in intelligence.  can still rock to mud on a two, control winds and solid fog on a 7, gate on a 13 for when things get hairy, fog cloud or a knockdown effect on a -3. Anything less than this and I am assuming you got MDJed, as there is an assumption that truenamers will pick up the amulet. If you can't you had better find a way to make up for losing 10 on your check.

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lans

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #591 on: July 23, 2009, 03:38:31 AM »
I think what he was trying to say is that the SRD is readily and freely available so it isn't unreasonable to assume access to it is allowed/available.  Maybe not.  I dunno.

I'm willing to accept that. I'm just saying that you cannot include Item Familiar in the term "core".
If you read carefully I never said it was.
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lans

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #592 on: July 23, 2009, 04:55:39 AM »
Let's try this. Rank the Truenamer in these situations.

Bare: Using nothing but Core and ToM. No magic items.
This really means your being screwed over, can't even get items that you make yourself. I imagine the artificer is pissed.
At 20th you could have 23 ranks, 3 skill focus, 9 from intelligence and 2 from master work item, That gives you a 37 skill check.  you have -8 to con from being an elf and really old, you can heal 54x5x3 hp to the party and 54x5 to your self, a third of this if you feel you can't spare  5 points of con. Gate can be done on a 8 the first time, solid fog and control winds on a 3, transmute rock to muds-2, shockwave is at -7. Do to the utter lack of magic items Lexicon of the crafted tool is useful, you might even want to pick up quicken with it as they are Dc 25 so 45 with quicken. Can disarm with Seize item, heat metal, or transmute a weapon when fighting golems. You easily have 6 uses of each of these.

At 15 the skill will be 6 points lower, and the DC will be 10 points lower, which means it needs to roll a 14 or better to affect equal CR creatures, shock wave at -1, crafted tools can each be done 3 times before needing to roll, unless the opponents have magic items.

At level 10 it should be 13 ranks, 3 skill focus 7 from intelligence and 2 from masterwork item. So 25 versus Dcs of 35, your in the coin flip area, you likely picked up shockwave which you can do on a 5 the first time around, so not too bad I guess. Can go for a +5 buff at 60% chance from universal aptitude.

Can heal about 500hp to the party and a 100 to yourself, which is actually more than you can heal at the higher level if you didn't want -8 to con.  :eh Which makes you on par with a healer at healing out of combat.

So I guess over all I would say tier 5 as long as your a middle age gray elf. The lexicon of the crafted tool and the Perfected Map are what the class is riding on at later levels. As the Evolving mind starts to devolve those start to pick up the slack. Also if the encounter is multiple creatures it can start to affect crap, a battle with 4 CR 16s at level 20 means that the TN needs to roll a 10 to affect them. Or 4 CR 6s at level 10, 2s all the way.

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Skill-boosted: Using skill-boosting shenanigans, but no magic items yet.
The artificer still hates you, Add 4 to the above  checks from illiterate, and a feat from OA and 3 from power sigil, or 3 from that one eberron elf. Then if elder evils is done add another 7 at level 5 every other round.

Going for other classes a level of exemplar and marshall will leave you with another 8, which gets you 60% shot at level 20,  at 15 80%, and at 11 you will have a 100% odds. 85 at 10, 90 at 9, and 95 at 8 and 7. can also take a feat for lucky dice for another 5% when it gets a slot open.
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Magically-enhanced: Core and ToM, but with magic items.
Yeah, I finally get the item that I am willing to make my self, add 5 at level 5, in the first section, and 12 to  level 10, from the +10 item, and a +4 headband after that, at 15 it should be a +6 item if INT, and a +10 item of TS and a luckstone, so success on 1s. Also pays for PAOed for another +10.

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Screw this: Skill-boosting shenanigans plus all the magic items you can get your grubby mittens on.
Add another 4 to the last tier, then item familiar for autoquicken.
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That should give us a more accurate reply than the discussion we currently have going on - though not as accurate as can be.

I kind of think that an outline of what the TS number is going to be will be more accurate, considering that with core and magical enhancement it will wind up making the checks on a 1, and there are many ways to get to that score.

I'll likely add more later
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Brainpiercing

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #593 on: July 23, 2009, 11:43:17 AM »
Ok, so basically what we're at here is that the Truenamer can range from Tier 6 to Tier 1 based solely on what items and other shenanigans are available. That alone sounds like a record to me :).

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #594 on: July 23, 2009, 12:07:03 PM »
I still don't think it hits tier 1. It has a limited number of tricks available, which by itself usually puts a class in tier 2. Maybe even tier 3, since it is assumed that most classes can raise themselves one tier with proper item selection and an optimized build.

lans

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #595 on: July 23, 2009, 12:13:44 PM »
Ok, so basically what we're at here is that the Truenamer can range from Tier 6 to Tier 1 based solely on what items and other shenanigans are available.
It also changes based on level, and your opponents.

At level 20 I think even no magic + core is tier 4 due to gate and control winds. Might even manage tier 4 at level 16 due to control winds and solid fog with out of combat healing. At ~11-15 I would say its more in teh Tier 6. At this point you can heal more at level 10 than you can at level 20. Falls to tier 5 before it can build a Truespeak amulet.

If core and standard items you built yourself are allowed I would say it ranges from 5-2. Mostly it will be 4. Last level it gets gate spam that it can due a few times before needing to roll.

I don't think it actually gets to the point were its tier 1, and it only gets to maybe tier 2 due to autoquicken. If it succeeds on a 1 or less its basically on the adept level. If it gets a 50/50 at quicken then I would put it at low tier 3.

If your fighting several CR+4 your screwed several ways to sunday, with out some good investment.  Against CR-4 creatures you should be good.
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That alone sounds like a record to me :).
I guess TN is so broken and requires as much work to put a good judgment on as the core classes do and we should just give TNs there own thread. So 15 times whats normal.
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #596 on: July 23, 2009, 12:17:30 PM »
I still don't think it hits tier 1. It has a limited number of tricks available, which by itself usually puts a class in tier 2. Maybe even tier 3, since it is assumed that most classes can raise themselves one tier with proper item selection and an optimized build.

I'd put it lower than that.  Remember, the optimized guy should be compared with other optimized classes of its tier (because the system assumes equal optimization).  I'd say a Truenamer who's that optimized is probably comperable to a similarly optimized Warlock (Truenamer 18/Marshal 1/Exemplar 1 with exactly the custom items he wants and Item Familiar, vs Binder 1/Warlock 13/Hellfire Warlock 3 with a major bloodline and all the custom gear he wants?  It's close).  So I'd say Tier 4 with everything it wants, Tier 6 without much that it wants.

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lans

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #597 on: July 23, 2009, 12:19:53 PM »
I still don't think it hits tier 1. It has a limited number of tricks available, which by itself usually puts a class in tier 2.
I would put it at tier 2 at level 20. The DC to do Gate is 45, which is not even at were trying levels. I will say its tier 2 when its in autoquicken mode also

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Maybe even tier 3, since it is assumed that most classes can raise themselves one tier with proper item selection and an optimized build.

When were done with truenamer this thread is going to have another 15 pages, and its going to appear on the tier system 10 times. I may be slightly exaggerating, but only slightly.
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #598 on: July 23, 2009, 12:24:50 PM »
I would put it at tier 2 at level 20. The DC to do Gate is 45, which is not even at were trying levels. I will say its tier 2 when its in autoquicken mode also

Remember though that the Tier system emphasizes the levels people are most likely to play, so 16-20 is given the least emphasis.  If it I had been counting level 20 as particularly important, the Healer would go up a Tier or two and so would the Factotum.

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #599 on: July 23, 2009, 12:28:34 PM »
I still don't think it hits tier 1. It has a limited number of tricks available, which by itself usually puts a class in tier 2. Maybe even tier 3, since it is assumed that most classes can raise themselves one tier with proper item selection and an optimized build.

I'd put it lower than that.  Remember, the optimized guy should be compared with other optimized classes of its tier (because the system assumes equal optimization).  I'd say a Truenamer who's that optimized is probably comperable to a similarly optimized Warlock (Truenamer 18/Marshal 1/Exemplar 1 with exactly the custom items he wants and Item Familiar, vs Binder 1/Warlock 13/Hellfire Warlock 3 with a major bloodline and all the custom gear he wants?  It's close).  So I'd say Tier 4 with everything it wants, Tier 6 without much that it wants.

JaronK
I agree... 4-6, but since its sooo bad without that system it shuold definately be rated as tier 6.
Again, its the old fighter argument "The fighter is tier 1 cause he can use an arifact sword or whatever" It's silly in so many ways that we're ranking this based on its available items.
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