Tier System for Classes

[Sinfire Titan]

Jaron, no offense, but do you really think having access to any 9th level power, and 8th level and lower spell or power, and the ability to cast 6 spells/powers in one turn, every round, until you run out of points, is anywhere near what a Tier 2 class should be doing?

I've seen your nerfs to casters. Erudite has many options availble to them if you allow the right sources (Mind's Eye alone makes them Tier 1-worthy, Complete Mage just breaks it). The class is Grade A material if even remotely optimized, and can quickly outpace the Psion due to sheer powers known+Linked Power.

Two quick questions: What's this about 6 spells/powers in one turn?

Also, is Mind's Eye, being made primarily for the 3.0 version of Psionics, considered compatible with the XPH version? If you ignore the mention of attack/defense modes, it seems like it should work, but I was under the impression that they weren't used anyway.

Greater Arcane Fusion for Arcane Fusion+1 4th level or lower spell/power. Use the normal Arcane Fusion for 2 more. That's 5. Quicken power for another one (Quickening Arcane Fusion again allows for more).

And the Erudite Spell-to-Power variant was posted for 3.5 use, seeing as the Erudite wasn't WotC property until 3.5.

[Negative Zero]

Huh. Well, good to know.

Anyway, with Spell to Power, I have to agree that Erudite is definitely Tier 1.

[InnaBinder]

I might have missed it during the MEGO of the potion throwing Rogue, but is there consensus on a Battle Sorcerer's placement in the tiers?  I have a hard time thinking it's as powerful as a straight Sorc, but it seems better than most of the ToB classes, at the same time.

[Cyrocloud]

Well if you compare 20 for 20, battle sorcerer gets 40 more HP, and prof with a martial weap, and prof with light armor(i think). While regular sorrcer has 1 more spell a level.  With the sorcerer being as spell starved as it already is it is safe to say that it is 7 times out of 10 weaker than a regular sorcerer, but I would assume it still stays at the bottom of tier 2.

[InnaBinder]

Yeah, I see it getting a lot of love from certain builds that are headed into gish territory, but I don't think it's as popular as some other gish caster methods like Wizard or even Beguiler.  And, as this system is less interested in the dipping power of a given class, it becomes a tougher call.  If it's Tier 2, I think it's arguably the weakest Tier 2, while at Tier 3 it's a monster compared to all but the most carefully optimized options there.

[Sunic_Flames]

I'd say it's a high but not maxed Tier 3. They do get Sorcerer spells, but not that many of them at all. Presumably they're using them to cover their gish bases and not on infinite loops (which is the only reason Wizards are Tier 1 and Beguilers Tier 3 as the latter gets most of the good Wizard spells before spell list expansion tactics as spontaneously castable options).

A Battle Sorcerer aiming at focusing on their casting is not a Battle Sorcerer. They'd stick with the regular kind to get more spells.

[JaronK]

Well, the Battle Sorcerer can basically the same things that a regular Sorcerer can do, just less of them.  The power level is the same, it's just that any one Battle Sorcerer has fewer options available.  But they can still have world shattering power if they want, so they're still Tier 2, just noticeably lower in Tier 2 (and if they pick their spells poorly, it's easy to drop to Tier 3).  I mean, they can still run around with Alter Self, Glitterdust, Polymorph, Genesis, Shades, and so on.

JaronK

[woodenbandman]

Am I the only one noticing the utter lack of Incarnum classes?

It's such a pity that there's only 3 viable incarnum options (them being Totem Rager, Totemist, and Incarnate), and those three aren't so great.

[Stratovarius]

The Ironsoul Forger isn't all that terrible either. But yes, the selection is somewhat limited.

[JaronK]

Since I don't actually have MoI, I didn't rank any of them.  Erudite is also missing because I haven't actually seen the class.

JaronK

[Sinfire Titan]

Am I the only one noticing the utter lack of Incarnum classes?

It's such a pity that there's only 3 viable incarnum options (them being Totem Rager, Totemist, and Incarnate), and those three aren't so great.

Soulcaster and Sapphire Hierarch are both viable. Very much so at that.

The Incarnate and Totemist stand solidly in Tier 3 due to how flexible the classes are (both can go from skill monkey to frontliner within 24 hours, or a Swift action depending on the melds shaped). Totem Rager is like the Sherman Tank of Incarnum (though Totemist 20 may be stronger in terms of sheer ability, due to Manticore Belt Totem and Shoulder Binds+Totem Embodiment being able to get 18 attacks/round at a +33 base modifier before Dex or Str, and a Fly speed of 190ft).

Erudites, as I have said numerous times, are Tier 2 if Spell to Power is not allowed, Tier 1 if it is. This is due to Arcane Fusion being so abusable in their hands that it isn't funny.

[carnivore]

just would like to add.....

i would rank Psychic Warrior as Tier 4

and bump up Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger to Tier 3

just my opinion.......

 

[Cyrocloud]

you forgot the necrocarnate

[Sinfire Titan]

you forgot the necrocarnate

I tend to ignore things that are horrifically underpowered unless they are abused out the ass. Necrocarnate is one of those things due to the severe hit to your meldshaping abilities (you basically get no new soulmelds to work with for the entire 13 levels of the PrC).

[Cyrocloud]

True, but it is realy damn easy to abuse.

[awaken DM golem]

Magic of Incarnum , eh ??

Incarnate ought to be Tier 5, but I'm sure some would argue Tier 4 during early game.
Totemist is at least Tier 4.
CO-builds of them usually Dipped Out, or PrC'd away altogether.

Wizard or Cleric (yawn) with Soulcaster and Sapphire Hierarch, make the best MoI stuff.
Psion/Erudite with the Mind's Eye double of Soulcaster, might be the best of this bunch.


SoulDoofus is a Tier 6 unfortunately.
Fighter 2 / Totemist or Incarnate 2 / Fighter on up
Superior by even a Noob's approach.

[ninjarabbit]

I'd like to propose that the paladin of tyranny (and maybe a paladin of slaughter) be a Tier 4 class instead of a Tier 5.

-Rebuke undead: They can pull off the same Command-an-undead-that-can-spawn-to-build-an-army trick that clerics and dread necros can

-Deadly touch: A potentially high damage touch attack (easly 200+ hps at level 20).

-Aura of Dispair (PoT only): Good and easy debuff

And they can do all of this while pulling off the same tricks a regular paladin can like battle blessing, divine feats, and DMM feats.

[JaronK]

I'd like to propose that the paladin of tyranny (and maybe a paladin of slaughter) be a Tier 4 class instead of a Tier 5.

-Rebuke undead: They can pull off the same Command-an-undead-that-can-spawn-to-build-an-army trick that clerics and dread necros can

Possible, but of course they have half level, so half as much direct controlled.  Also, I find the "spawn an army" trick rarely flies in most games, and I try to rank this off stuff that's legal and doesn't feel too gamey.  Most DMs, I find, rule that the spawn themselves come out of your Rebuke pool (because you ARE controlling them, even if indirectly, through Rebuke Undead) so extra ones become uncontrolled.  Now, you can still pull the Rod of Defiance/Lyre of the Restful Soul trick, but it's not as good.  Still, this can be quite useful, if nothing else by rebuking a Ghostly Visage given the chance.

-Deadly touch: A potentially high damage touch attack (easly 200+ hps at level 20).

I rarely see PoTs maxing Charisma enough to have a Charisma of 30.  Possible sure, but "easily" is a bit of a stretch.  They have MAD (needing Str for combat, Con for hitpoints, Wis for casting, and Charisma for a number of their abilities) and they can't dump Dex too much, so I don't see them successfully pumping their Charisma like that.  I think a Charisma of 20 is far more likely.  Handy sure, but not THAT incredible.

-Aura of Dispair (PoT only): Good and easy debuff

Yes, and hilarious when combined with Hexblade 4 with the Dark Companion substitution, and perhaps Bind Vestige/Improved Bind Vestige for Foculor's Aura of Sadness.  -6 to saves is great for your party casters.  The PoT/Hexblade in my group is pulling this stunt in a party with a Dread Necromancer right now, and yes, it's kinda obscene.  So I definitely give you this point.

And they can do all of this while pulling off the same tricks a regular paladin can like battle blessing, divine feats, and DMM feats.

I've found that Paladins rarely go for DMM, as their buff aren't nearly as good and they need the feats.  Battle Blessing is cool, that I'll grant you.

I dunno.  I'm up in the air about Paladins being Tier 4 or 5 (especially since they also have Diplomacy as a class skill with some Charisma synergy), so I'm certainly considering your points, but I've just never seen a Paladin really take off like, for example, a Barbarian might.  Their penalties (MAD, conduct codes) seem to hit them hard, negating a lot of their advantages.

I do agree though that Paladins of Tyranny seem to be the strongest Paladin varient, mostly for that save debuff aura.

JaronK

[Sunic_Flames]

You sound surprised that Lawful Evil always wins.

[JaronK]

Yes, well, that's because good is dumb, of course. 

I should note that I'm holding off moving them around, because I'm in a group with one right now (though he's multiclassing a bit so it's harder to judge).  I want to see how useful his abilities turn out to be before I move him.  So far, he's been useful, but he's also clearly the weakest in the group (currently with Factotum, Dread Necromancer, Cleric, Swordsage, Sorcerer).  The only reason he's contributing at all is that the save reduction makes the others that much stronger, but he feels like a one trick pony in that respect (though he's trying to get tripping to have a second trick).

I tend to be pretty slow to move classes, as I like to see if somebody else makes counter arguements and I think these out for a long time before placement.  For now, I'm keeping Paladins at Tier 5.

Erudites are still missing due to my lack of seeing them at all, as are Incarnums.  I'm fine with placing something I've seen only a few times if enough other people try to rank them, but not one where I literally don't know the class at all, though from the arguements here it seems reasonable to place them at the top.

Also, let's remember that this system assumes no house rules at all other than those that are blindingly obvious (monks getting unarmed strike proficiency is an obvious one).  The idea is that this is for their placements before whatever house rules a DM might use.  Check the rankings here, then decide how your house rules will change things, and you'll know how it works in your games.

JaronK