Tier System for Classes

[EjoThims]

Lurker.

Just because 3.5 fails at executing certain roles does not mean they cease to exist.

[jseah]

If beguiler has 4 or 5 of these, then I agree it should be tier 1. 

"Contact Other Plane" OR "Divination" (and other various equivalent divination spells, ie. ask a question and get it answered)
"Shapechange" or any polymorph-type effect (includes wildshape)
"Timestop" or anything that variously breaks action economy (dual actions per round probably counts)
Long and short range Teleport (able to ignore standard physical barriers, including simple distance)
Any other equivalent game-changing effect (eg. Genesis, Army-generation)

These are the main ways where a character "breaks" the game by making a standard swords and sorcery campaign impossible.  Which I think is what JaronK is pointing at, the way a wizard (or equivalent tier 1) bends the rules around them through personal power (or 1 step removed via summoning or shapechange). 

[lans]

That makes beguiler 2ish arcane disciples away from tier 1.

[Kaelik]

If beguiler has 4 or 5 of these, then I agree it should be tier 1.  

"Contact Other Plane" OR "Divination" (and other various equivalent divination spells, ie. ask a question and get it answered)
"Shapechange" or any polymorph-type effect (includes wildshape)
"Timestop" or anything that variously breaks action economy (dual actions per round probably counts)
Long and short range Teleport (able to ignore standard physical barriers, including simple distance)
Any other equivalent game-changing effect (eg. Genesis, Army-generation)

These are the main ways where a character "breaks" the game by making a standard swords and sorcery campaign impossible.  Which I think is what JaronK is pointing at, the way a wizard (or equivalent tier 1) bends the rules around them through personal power (or 1 step removed via summoning or shapechange).

That's maybe a good analysis. Almost certainly could add other things to that list, but here's the thing. Beguiler, in addition to having spells that make people fall down, also has, without using advanced learning or Arcane Disciple at all, two of those.

JaronK expects us to believe that this makes them somehow a Tier 3 class on par with a Duskblade/Bard/Psychic Warrior/Swordsage/Crusader/Warblade

A bard can do one of those things, a Swordsage can do half of one, I guess if you want to be an idiot you can call Time Stands Still actions.

But you have here a list of classes that all mostly just make people fall down about as well as a Beguiler but with less stuff to do, and no way to get more of those abilities. Compared to a Beguiler/Dread Necro who come into it with the ability to beat people down, 2-3 "high level sticks" and the ability to add one per feat.

A Sorcerer and Beguiler taking advantage of a DM allowing them to exploit "game breaking abilities" or "high powered sticks" is always going to result in the Beguiler having more of them than a Sorcerer unless the Sorcerer has nothing else he can do. At level 10 a Sorcerer gets to learn Contact Other Plane or Lesser Planar Binding or Teleport, and that can totally be awesome. But a Beguiler could have spent 3 feats at level 1 on Arcane Disciple and get Dominate Person (aka free army), Feeblemind, Hold Monster, Break Enchantment for utility, Commune (and have had Divination since level 6), Teleport (and had Dimension Door already), and Lesser Planar Binding (and already have Dimensional Anchor and use UMD to wand a Magic Circle, since CL doesn't really matter for that spell).

Note that of all those, the Arcane Disciple ones, only Planar Binding has a save, and it's for downtime use anyway and can be used repeately. The rest are easily usable with a starting Wisdom of 12 and a +4 item, or more likely given PB rules, starting 14 and a +2.

Could a well built Beguiler that intelligently picks spells and feats and doesn't PrC be Tier 1, sure. But a basic Beguiler is already as good as a basic Sorcerer without trying, more often than not, better, and calling on the Sorcerers ability to have a broken spell that Beguilers can also have is pretty silly.

Bottom line. Beguilers aren't Tier 3 and any objective assessment can determine that. The only reason JaronK doesn't is because he values high levels too much, and potential to break the game in stupid ways that won't be allowed more than in cool ways that will be allowed.

[Brainpiercing]

I've only seen one Beguiler in play, and I have to say it's very good. I've also played a DN to considerable effect. Both of these classes are GOOD at what they do. (That's the Tier 3 criterion.)
Now we've seen that they have the same possibilities as breaking the game as a Sorceror or Wizard, given a bit of effort in that direction. They DO need the effort, which means cutting corners, but, so does a sorceror, since every spell he takes means he won't be taking a different one. Now going by JaronK's own definition of Tier 2, I think Beguilers, and even more so DNs, can do that pretty well.

Now I think depending on the level played a Beguiler doesn't need to hide behind a Sorc or Wizard even in Tier 1 games. This changes at higher levels, when the increase in monster immunities call for things the Beguiler has to really work for to get. I think the Beguiler has to work MORE to keep going in an anything goes Tier 1 game than the big three, and also a bit more than the DN, who gets first-hand access to everything necessary except Shapechange. An army DN could easily get by without any kind of polymorph, pure power wise, since he breaks action economy from the get-go and has plenty of meat and raw physical strength available. So a DN in an anything goes game is easily Tier 1, without extra special build optimisation, while the Beguiler has to work for it. Also, those two have considerable problems actually killing other Tier 1 characters who don't want to be killed (i.e. found) (which counts for the druid, too, due to lack of certain spells).

Now I personally think JaronK might have another reason for wanting those two in Tier 3: Keeping them there means there will be more chance to play them in Tier-restricted games. If you move them to Tier 2 you'll end up having only the Bard and the Duskblade as Tier 3 casters - and I would count neither of those as main casters. And that sort of sucks, if you play Tier restricted games unless you choose the partial Gestalt option.

[RobbyPants]

Looking at the Lurker's list of spells:

1: Color Spray+Silent Image
2: Glitterdust
3: Dispel Magic+Haste+Hold Person
4: Charm Monster+Solid Fog
5: Dominate Person+Hold Monster
6: Greater Dispel Magic
7: Power Word Blind+Mass Hold Person
8: Power Word Stun+Scintellating Pattern
9: Time Stop+Dominate Monster

Only about half of those are Mind-Affecting.  My biggest concern with the begiler when I read it was that so much of the spell list was useless against a lot of monsters, but there are still some really good spells on that list that aren't.

The last character I played was a wizard, and I can honestly say that Glitterdust remained useful into double-digit levels without any Heightening.  All three of those level 3 spells are solid choices (although Dispel Magic becomes less usful about the time you get Greater Dispel Magic).

I'm not sure I'd put them at tier 3, because they can still do more than one thing, and I think they can do them fairly well.  Given their ability to expand their spell list without multiclassing, I'd put them right up with the sorcerer in terms of raw power and versatility.

[Midnight_v]

Bottom line. Beguilers aren't Tier 3 and any objective assessment can determine that. The only reason JaronK doesn't is because he values high levels too much, and potential to break the game in stupid ways that won't be allowed more than in cool ways that will be allowed

.
That's your bottom line? Really? You're bottom line is indistinguishable from whining. Yes:

he values high levels too much, and potential to break the game in stupid ways that won't be allowed more than in cool ways that will be allowed

Is a whine, and not even a very good complaint.

 The whole "cool ways" vs "stupid ways" is completely subjective.
What you think is "cool" the next man ("I" in this case) says "stupid" and it doesn't really say anything at all.
 The whole  "he values high levels too much" is an actually grossly empty statement because you don't define what "you" mean by high level. 16-20 I'd think but... you could mean something else.
  This is relavant because the fact of the matter is "THOSE LEVELS EXIST" and they're where the most powerful shit is going on. so to have a tier'd system in terms of power and versatility would be ridiculous without examining the high levels.
 So what are we to do?
I would actually be willing to listen about the beguiler maybe it is tier 2 however....
You are   

JaronK this is a joke.

actively being too obnoxious 

You have some sort of obsession with maximum bullshit potential.

If your Tier system measures nothing more than game breaking potential or ease, please admit that so that we can all ignore you. 

to bother debate with. 
So much so that I TOO wish Jaronk would say what you suggest so we can all ignore YOU!
Don't like it?
 Make a tier system of your own?
Whining about how its better or worse while berating the dude as an idiot is just going to increase his resitance, hell MOST thinking peoples resistance to listening to you.

  In anycase, here's something I thought about reading these last 3-5 pages. One of the things that I see as being (perhaps not key, but relavant) is the amount of support classes have being pretty key to what level they have.
 I would think that the beguiler having a limited spell list well... LIMITS it somewhat for certain things.

also THIS

Only about half of those are Mind-Affecting.  My biggest concern with the begiler when I read it was that so much of the spell list was useless against a lot of monsters, but there are still some really good spells on that list that aren't. 

This is true however. . . I think the whole idea of 1/2 thier spells being immune to mind affecting sucks.
I believe the sorceror still has more options spell wise and well the "Wings Spells" is seriously impassable on thier arsenal and the fact that there are spells that say sorceror "only" at all give the sorc the edge. In my book.

Moreoever in terms of support. . . There are Sublevels, and Racial Sub levels, and feats and all of them say "sorceror" thats kind of a big deal for optimization. The Minimum and The MAXIMIUM that can be tacked on

So being more about having a more accurate tier system that simple "peen bruising" I propose the most relavant question I could think of.

 Is the factotum with its class features and limited spells more or less limited than the Sorceror with its "less limited spells" and all of the "sorceror directed" content.

See without bitching about it. We can probabbly do an analysis of what the totality of all both classes bring to the table.
 Clearly being a shadow craft mage is irrelavant as both of them do it and I... I'd imagine there would not be many of those flying around in non optimized play "I don't KNOW" this but... unless someones been online googling builds they'd have to discover it themselve so. Meh.

 So barring that, the factotum came out with good class ablilities and spells.
So How tricked out can the sorceror be?

But also we should look at it from the otherside too.
How badass is a bard or Dreadnecro comparatively?

[ninjarabbit]

A simple mindblank or even a protection from evil eliminates a good chunk of the beguiler's offense. A decently built sorcerer and wizard don't have worry about being screwed over by one simple tactic. Arcane disciple ony lets you cast the domain spell once a day and it forces you to put points into wis, increasing your MAD. Not to mention that you're lacking the buff/debuff/blast/BC spells that a sorcerer potentially has access to.

From level 1-5 the beguiler is better than the sorcerer but once the sorcerer starts getting his 3rd and 4th level spells the ballgame changes. The CR-approraite monsters are much better able to make their saving throws and the sorcerer starts getting his really good spells like SM III and IV, polymorph, evard's black tentacles, ray of exhaustion, enervation, sleet storm, phantom steed, and more. I'd say the beguiler and sorcerer are about on par from levels 6-9 and the sorcerer takes over at level 10 since at that point he simply just has more options than the beguiler.

[Midnight_v]

+ 1 For ninjarabbit (my only regret is that I have no gamer-fu to give)

In anycase I went to do some research on what I mentioned before. I'm the beguiler guide but also stopped by the surrealdex (props to surreal) and found this from the
Alternate Class features III thread.

Aquatic Sorcerer (SW, p 51): Gain aquatic familiar.

Battle Sorcerer (UA, p 56): d8 hitdice, medium BAB, replace bluff skill with intimidate on list of class skills. Proficient with light armor and one light or one-handed melee weapon. Reduced spells per day and spells known.

Divine Companion (CC, 51): Lose familiar. Gain a spirit that stores spell energy and turns it into healing or deflection bonuses.

Dragonblood Sorcerer Substitution Levels (RDr, p 107): lose craft and profession, gain UMD
1st level: Arcane Insight (+2 knowledge: arcana), Dragon Heritage (the feat), lose familiar
4th level: Arcane Insight, Spell-Like Ability (turn spell slots into SLA)
7th level: Arcane Insight, Bonus Spells Known

Drakken Familar (DrM, p 12): Don't gain a normal familiar, gain a familiar with the dragon subtype. It doesn't gain normal special abilities, but can breath fire instead.

Domain Access (CC, p 52): Lose one 2nd level spell known, and one spell known each time you gain a new spell level. Gain access to a domain, including domain power, and can cast a domain spell of each level once per day.

Dwarf Sorcerer Substitution Levels (RS, p 161): d6 hitdice, add knowledge: dungeoneering
1st level: Arcane Earthblood (alertness feat, damage reduction), lose familiar
5th level: Power of Stone (increase range and DC for spells), lose 2nd level spell known
9th level: Earth Meditation (add Con bonus to Cha to determine bonus spells), lose a 4th level spell known  
That there is some good.
Frostfell Familiar (FB, p 45): Gain cold-climate familiar.

Metamagic Specialist (PHB 2, p 61): lose familiar. Gain the ability to apply metamagic rapidly 3 + Int bonus times per day.

Planar Sorcerer (PlH, p35): add knowledge: the planes to class list
5th level: Force Charged Energy (half damage of spells is force damage), lose 2nd level spell known
9th level: Extraplanar Spell Penetration (add Cha bonus to caster level to pierce SR of extraplanar creatures), lose a 4th level spell known
13th level: Spontaneous Planar Summoning (use any spell slot to spontaneously cast Summon Monster, picking from a select list), lose a 6th level spell known

Raptorian Sorcerer Substitution Level (RW, p 162):
1st level: Air Magic (add spells to spells known), Elemental Familiar (air elemental familiar), lose normal familiar
5th level: Air Magic, Command the Winds (lose 2nd level spell known, add other spells)
11th level: Air Magic, Spell on the Wing (can fly and cast), lose a 5th level spell known

Spell Shield (DS, p 13): Give up familiar. You can sacrifice a spell slot to prevent damage equal to five times the spell level.

Stalwart Sorcerer (CM, p 36): Lose one spell known from your highest spell level. Gain a martial weapon proficiency, and weapon focus in that weapon, and 2 hitpoints/level.

Wasteland Familiar (SSt, p 49): Gain horned lizard familiar.

Wilderness Companion (UA, p 58): Trade familiar for animal companion.  

Wilderness Companion (UA, p 58): Trade familiar for animal companion.
wait wut!? OMFGBBQWTF!
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*sigh* Now I'll find the list of sorc spells if I can. (I'll take help if I can get it)
I rember them getting mithril fullplate the spell at a level that matters, it might be in Magic of faerun or something but its there. Interesting.
 Point being "Wings of Pwnage" are not the only ones

[RobbyPants]

Don't like it?
 Make a tier system of your own?

Heh.

A simple mindblank or even a protection from evil eliminates a good chunk of the beguiler's offense. A decently built sorcerer and wizard don't have worry about being screwed over by one simple tactic. Arcane disciple ony lets you cast the domain spell once a day and it forces you to put points into wis, increasing your MAD. Not to mention that you're lacking the buff/debuff/blast/BC spells that a sorcerer potentially has access to.

I agree that Mind Blank hurts beguilers far worse than sorcerers, but they have enough non-Mind-Affecting spells that they aren't crippled.  That, and UMD helps a lot too.

[Midnight_v]

Heh

I'm just saying. It's not like it hasn't been done before.

I rember there being a variant tier system before. It just never took, I guess...

[ninjarabbit]

Another issue is action economy. The beguiler doesn't have too many swift/immediate spells on its spell list (greater mirror image and swift etheralness being the only ones) and doesn't have too many options for making his spells swift unless he wants to spend 2 feats on arcane preparation and quicken spell.

[InnaBinder]

1.  The partial-information spell list posted by The Lurker strikes me as a very well-constructed example of this book's main point.  Bravo.

2.  +1 to ninjarabbit et al who point out that too many of the spells listed, and the Beguiler's list in total, are circumvented by a single spell - or by a sizeable swath of LA-appropriate monsters above 5th level or so - to realistically be on par with a Psion or Sorcerer in a majority of campaigns.

3.  I'm beginning to think Optimator's hypothesis on The Lurker's secret identity has a good deal of merit.  That's some fine deduction, Optimator.

[Kuroimaken]

1.  The partial-information spell list posted by The Lurker strikes me as a very well-constructed example of this book's main point.  Bravo.

2.  +1 to ninjarabbit et al who point out that too many of the spells listed, and the Beguiler's list in total, are circumvented by a single spell - or by a sizeable swath of LA-appropriate monsters above 5th level or so - to realistically be on par with a Psion or Sorcerer in a majority of campaigns.

3.  I'm beginning to think Optimator's hypothesis on The Lurker's secret identity has a good deal of merit.  That's some fine deduction, Optimator.

I thought it was "35 ways to win a discussion without being right", by Schopenhauer.

Also, care to give me the conspiracy theory short version?

[RobbyPants]

Heh

I'm just saying. It's not like it hasn't been done before.

I rember there being a variant tier system before. It just never took, I guess...

No, I just found that funny (and ironic) is all.

While Uber and Jaron were using the same tiers (1 - 6), they were  using different criteria for evaluating what puts you in a particular tier.  Based on that, you get entirely different results.  Plus, I know uber maintained that heavy optimization could raise you up a tier (possibly two, I don't remember).

[dark_samuari]

A Sorcerer and Beguiler taking advantage of a DM allowing them to exploit "game breaking abilities" or "high powered sticks" is always going to result in the Beguiler having more of them than a Sorcerer unless the Sorcerer has nothing else he can do. At level 10 a Sorcerer gets to learn Contact Other Plane or Lesser Planar Binding or Teleport, and that can totally be awesome. But a Beguiler could have spent 3 feats at level 1 on Arcane Disciple and get Dominate Person (aka free army), Feeblemind, Hold Monster, Break Enchantment for utility, Commune (and have had Divination since level 6), Teleport (and had Dimension Door already), and Lesser Planar Binding (and already have Dimensional Anchor and use UMD to wand a Magic Circle, since CL doesn't really matter for that spell).

So you're spending three of your feats just to catch up to a Sorcerer?

Could a well built Beguiler that intelligently picks spells and feats and doesn't PrC be Tier 1, sure. But a basic Beguiler is already as good as a basic Sorcerer without trying, more often than not, better, and calling on the Sorcerers ability to have a broken spell that Beguilers can also have is pretty silly.

I think the biggest thing is that a Sorcerer can emulate a beguiler spell-wise but still have more versatility, and not the other way around. It's the same with the Warmage and the Dread Necromancer. You have an extremely specified class going against a extremely free and versatile class. 

[dark_samuari]

Summoning is pretty much the exact same as dominating.  As for buffing, the best buff spells are personal, so that isn't a role.

Creation and domination are two very different ideas forms. And as for buffing, stop trying to sneak away from that issue. It doesn't matter if the best buff spells are personal, you still can't buff your team mates. You're completely self-reliant and self-focused as a class.
 

Indeed it is.  That doesn't mean that make believe has anything to do with mechanics.

When the mechanics are designed to work in conjunction with that make believe than it does. Do you truly believe that roles don't exist in a game founded on playing specific roles? This isn't like d20 Modern where you can design your own roles, when a class is named Scout guess what they do well, scouting...

[TheWordSlinger]

Since I've actually read the Arcane Disciple feat, I'm curious as to which deity you're worshipping to get all the specified domains.

[dark_samuari]

Since I've actually read the Arcane Disciple feat, I'm curious as to which deity you're worshipping to get all the specified domains.

Oh you know... That one dude with the thing at the place...


...Odin?

[Midnight_v]

Domain Access (CC, p 52): Lose one 2nd level spell known, and one spell known each time you gain a new spell level. Gain access to a domain, including domain power, and can cast a domain spell of each level once per day.

You know... I just never looked at this in the complete champion I was so busy working on "101 Barbarians" that I just totally missed this.
... I mean... holy shikes, that can be good. Am I..? Am I missing something with this?
[Edit](oddly related to the posts above mine typed while I was typing) if you use this acf instead... well you don't have to specify a diety. You can just pick a cause.

I mean... You just gain a bunch of spell that you might have taken or wouldn't have had access to plus you gain a domain power? Thats pretty much a no brainer if so.

 I'm also thinking there are enough feats/acf's that I think by picking up a few things the sorc can become somekind of metamagic master too...