Author Topic: Tier System for Classes  (Read 620562 times)

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JaronK

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #820 on: August 03, 2009, 04:59:36 AM »
This is called lying.  I still have the sheet from that.  I didn't even play a rogue.  Someone else played a rogue (and presumably called bullshit on item familiar for being "Moar XP").

Ah right, then I think it was Kaelik with the Item Familiar rogue.  Suffice to say, you whined about Item Familiar when it was on my Factotum, and were fine with it on the Rogue.  And you whined about a Human Factotum and then busted out the Necropolitan Strongheart Halfling.

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Now, did anyone in that group actually give a fuck about tiers?  Did they try to use them for for balancing their game?

Remember, JaronK.  If the answer to that question is "No," then you've just made that paragraph a complete waste of our time.

The answer is, in fact, yes.  The party started out as Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Unarmed Swordsage, and Paladin of Tyranny/Hexblade (who we knew would be a bit weaker, so the DM gave him better magic items to compensate).  Everyone was pretty darn balanced, though the PoT/H was still noticeably behind the curve.  The Beguiler player got bored with the class anyway (mostly because he prefers dealing direct damage) and when he died he switched to a Cleric/Ordained Champion.  He's still not outshining us because of his playstyle (smack things hard, yay).  The Swordsage left when the player moved.  The Sorcerer was a new player who came in at the same time as the Factotum that joined... and both the Swordsage player and Factotum player were pretty new players.  Both did quite well.  The campaign is still running... and if I were playing a Sorcerer/Mage of the Arcane Order I'd probably be a lot stronger (I'm the Dread Necromancer) but we're doing well enough.

I'm also using the Tier system in the game I'm running.  They all started as Commoners, then got to slowly retrain into NPC classes other than Adept.  They just finished doing that, and now they'll start retraining to Tier 5 classes (or the Samurai, if they want).  After that, they get the T4s. 

So yeah, the Tier system was indeed used to gauge power levels, and it was quite successful in that.  If it weren't working in the games I'm playing, I'd make adjustments.  I'm currently playing in two D&D games (the one described above, and a WLD dragon only game).  We used the Tiers in both to gauge power levels, and have had no problems.

JaronK
« Last Edit: August 03, 2009, 05:09:30 AM by JaronK »

The Lurker

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #821 on: August 03, 2009, 05:07:02 AM »
This is called lying.  I still have the sheet from that.  I didn't even play a rogue.  Someone else played a rogue (and presumably called bullshit on item familiar for being "Moar XP").

Ah right, then I think it was Kaelik with the Item Familiar rogue.  Suffice to say, you whined about Item Familiar when it was on my Factotum, and were fine with it on the Rogue.  And you whined about a Human Factotum and then busted out the Necropolitan Strongheart Halfling.
We went our of our way to mock you.   I guess that makes us bad people  :rollseyes
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Now, did anyone in that group actually give a fuck about tiers?  Did they try to use them for for balancing their game?

Remember, JaronK.  If the answer to that question is "No," then you've just made that paragraph a complete waste of our time.

The answer is, in fact, yes.  The party started out as Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Unarmed Swordsage, and Paladin of Tyranny/Hexblade (who we knew would be a bit weaker, so the DM gave him better magic items to compensate).  Everyone was pretty darn balanced, though the PoT/H was still noticeably behind the curve.  The Beguiler player got bored with the class anyway (mostly because he prefers dealing direct damage) and when he died he switched to a Cleric/Ordained Champion.  He's still not outshining us because of his playstyle (smack things hard, yay).  The Swordsage left when the player moved.  The Sorcerer was a new player who came in at the same time as the Factotum that joined... and both the Swordsage player and Factotum player were pretty new players.  Both did quite well.  The campaign is still running... and if I were playing a Sorcerer/Mage of the Arcane Order I'd probably be a lot stronger (I'm the Dread Necromancer) but we're doing well enough.

So yeah, the Tier system was indeed used to gauge power levels, and it was quite successful in that.  If it weren't working in the games I'm playing, I'd make adjustments.  I'm currently playing in two D&D games (the one described above, and a WLD dragon only game).  We used the Tiers in both to gauge power levels, and have had no problems.

JaronK
That's just embarrasing.  You're using classes with modifications from fucking dragons of ebberon (I've never even seen the book in a book store) as your sampling for how powerful a class is in play for people that don't even understand the game well enough to see which PHB classes are on par with each other?

Seriously?  You're using material that I have quite literally never seen for sale as part of the key component for your tiers (+2 Sorcerer levels and I don't even give a shit about the other part)?  Seriously?

Because, that's just embarrasing.

Gods_Trick

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #822 on: August 03, 2009, 05:25:54 AM »

  This is boring. Either defend an argument by means of a test; everything else is rhetoric at this point. I'm being blunt because I'm curious if a Beguiler is a T2.

 
My 2 cents.
[spoiler]
  Beguilers rock. Sorcerors have options. Choose enough options and you rock harder than the beguiler. If the beguilers advantage is in learning spells through Arcane Disciple, then MAD and dumpster diving for gods become an issue.  [/spoiler]

The Lurker

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #823 on: August 03, 2009, 05:36:03 AM »

  This is boring. Either defend an argument by means of a test; everything else is rhetoric at this point. I'm being blunt because I'm curious if a Beguiler is a T2.
I've already written up a side by side comparison for a level ten mildly optimized beguiler and mildly optimized sorcerer.  Since I'm the one that wrote up the two examples, it's not fair for me to evaluate it.  Would you mind?
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.msg175241#msg175241

Now, if the two classes are even close then beguiler is tier two.  Could you give me your evaluation on the fairness of the example and how close the two are?

bogsnes

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #824 on: August 03, 2009, 06:03:05 AM »
Im just wondering, what spells that you use today that benefit you tomorrow does sorcerers have? I know about explosive runes, animate dead, and a few more, but what does he have except those?

Kaelik

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #825 on: August 03, 2009, 06:24:08 AM »
1) JaronK, I have never heard of a Bogun ever in my life before your post. And yet, Druids were still Tier 1 in every game I've ever played. Now that I have heard of what they are, I have discovered them to be incredibly unremarkable even at first level.

Conclusion: Druids don't have to play for the future, because in the future they will be just as good as they are now, enough to win encounters. No they don't have 400d6 damage bombs at level 6. Yes they are still better than people who do, mostly because no one ever uses 400d6 damage bombs.

2) Yes, when you fought tooth and claw for your precious Item Familiar and I finally assented to your bullshit need, I showed you that Item Familiar is not Factotum Specific, and in fact, is not even more useful for Factotums. Your super normal Factotum used a Web supplement, OA and some books of spells that I didn't. I used a common subrace in Forgotten Realms Players handbook. Yes, I am teh uber dumpster diver. whatever. Yes I did take advantage of character creation to mock your insistence that everyone ever allows Item Familiar and Warbeast template from MM II. So what.

So you think Rogues shouldn't be allowed to throw acid flasks because it's too much optimization, but Factotums should totally alter self and get spellcasting. Yes, I know you want to have sex with Factotums and Sorcerers, and you are physically repulsed by the idea of a caster who can't do infinity damage in a standard action.

These things do not impress me at all. They do not make a Sorcerer magically more powerful than a Beguiler, or a Favored soul even half as good as a limping broken Dread Necromancer with his entire army destroyed. Your obsession with breaking the game has apparently caused you to forget that such things as casting a spell at an opponent exist.

Also, answer the following question:

Does Shivering Touch heal Dex damage?

lans

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #826 on: August 03, 2009, 06:44:02 AM »
I think the 4-13ish range is were the vast majority of games take place, from my experiance at least. Normally starting is 4+ by about the time 3.5 came out.
So, you basically agree with me about picking levels that see more play?  What level for comparison do you think is most fair?

I agree with your numbers of what levels people play at from my experiance. 4th is a good starting point. They get 2nd level spells and should have some survivability. Then you can level up the 4th level builds and  compare  at 7, 10 and 13. I went up by 3s because I think the sorcerer gets more out of odd levels than the beguiler, and the beguiler gets more out of even levels. Comparisons at 4 levels should be a good number.
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Gods_Trick

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #827 on: August 03, 2009, 06:59:15 AM »
I think the 4-13ish range is were the vast majority of games take place, from my experiance at least. Normally starting is 4+ by about the time 3.5 came out.
So, you basically agree with me about picking levels that see more play?  What level for comparison do you think is most fair?

I agree with your numbers of what levels people play at from my experiance. 4th is a good starting point. They get 2nd level spells and should have some survivability. Then you can level up the 4th level builds and  compare  at 7, 10 and 13. I went up by 3s because I think the sorcerer gets more out of odd levels than the beguiler, and the beguiler gets more out of even levels. Comparisons at 4 levels should be a good number.


  Good call. And Lurker, if someone on his board who doesn't have better Op skills than me hasn't stepped up in 24 hours I'll doparision of the builds. a com

Mushroom

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #828 on: August 03, 2009, 07:27:52 AM »
Uhmm, I'm an Op noob myself. My most optimized character was a charger(4k damage woot!), so I believe my skills are quite low. Although I personally like Sorcs better than Beguilers, I have to say that Lurker's Beguiler seemed to have versatility out the ass.




IMHO and all.....

RobbyPants

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #829 on: August 03, 2009, 10:31:54 AM »
I guess defining what is and isn't broken or cheesy is pretty tough.  All things considered, in a "practical" (read non-TO) game, I think a beguiler can out do a sorcerer in more circumstances than the sorcerer can out do the beguiler.
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #830 on: August 03, 2009, 11:48:43 AM »
With that said, what's all this about persisting Greater Magic Weapon?  That doesn't work.
Not without Oculur Spell. Whoops.

@Lurker, your more likely to stop posting here again then to ever see me say Fatespinner is great. +4 DC once per day with a once per day reroll is crap. The Sorcerer build and notes point out a continuous +6 DC boost and a -2 save penalty on each and every spell all day. Until your Fatespinner's start packing ice power they are directly inferior to anything with it when you break from that mindset you battle one person once per day that almost never happens in a real game.

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PS: If we're getting to this point, does that mean I win, or are y'all just humoring me?
I think it's to kick your ass in every way possible. I almost never recognize names yet you some how have stood out to me as a troll with a personal vendetta against JaronK set on whining about his tier system. Feel free to change your behavior so I no longer think that of you if you want, I encourage it.

If you do bait someone into fighting you remember a Sorcerer with his Wings of Cover completely blocks the Fatespinner's greatest ability of an effective +15 change to spell DC (which you don't even have). Also, a multiclassed spellcaster tends to ignore spells that target his will save, the relation of getting several +2 bonuses and high advancement of will progression may explain why. You should target the Sorcerer's fort save. Oh yeah, Beguiler, you can't. In that case Solid Fog him and then buff your self with your ever impressive buff list. Cast Blur, Greater Mirror Image and then Invisibility so Greater Mirrior Image/Blur has no purpose, then follow it up with Freedom of Movement(useful) and start casting dispel or spamming your Save or Dies until he runs out of spell slots so you can finally do something. Just beware of Solid Fog ending, it's likely the Sorcerer just stood in there summoning and buffing him self then everyone took ready actions for when it ends since a Beguiler can't do anything to someone hidden in one but use area dispel. If you get too frustrated just charge him. It's your really best option assuming he didn't Polymorph into pretty much anything other than a humanoid welding a rapier. Thankfully SorOs Sorcerer example wasn't smart enough to persist Ruin Delver's Fortune for an even higher will save, though that was probably because he didn't directly intend on fighting a Beguiler so he meant to learn the spell later on. Just in case though, you should battle your super awesome Chuck Norris of a Sorcerer build instead, facing the fort based Burning Blood or enhanced Feeblemind may reveal the fact your dice only have 20s printed on them.

Also, complain if you roll a really high number on your initiative and the Sorcerer rolls super poorly on his save during your first turn and your opponent says to try it again since you winning is solely based on winning initiative. You won by sheer luck in the last round, accept no arguments that undermines it (like saying "I bet you can't do it again now can you?").

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Does Shivering Touch heal Dex damage?
Yes.
Why? When the duration ends the spell's effect end, regardless of what they were unless noted otherwise.
But why damage and not drain or a penalty? I can only guess. Anything immune to negative energy is immune to drain, this does not fit the flavor at all. As for damage instead of penalty, the entire book has the idea freezing people does dex damage. Either the spell was created like that as an oversight following the trends in the book, or the creator liked to idea of multiple castings to fully freeze someone. *shurgs* We'll never know.

***

You know, I kinda like getting involves on debates, even if one side has no point. It makes me notice things I missed before. I came into this thinking a Beguiler was awesome because everyone said it was 3rd tier. I'm walking out of this muttering to my self their spell list sucks, royally. But I was also given an idea of how to expand on the list some.


Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

The Lurker

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #831 on: August 03, 2009, 12:19:33 PM »
With that said, what's all this about persisting Greater Magic Weapon?  That doesn't work.
Not without Oculur Spell. Whoops.

@Lurker, your more likely to stop posting here again then to ever see me say Fatespinner is great. +4 DC once per day with a once per day reroll is crap. The Sorcerer build and notes point out a continuous +6 DC boost and a -2 save penalty on each and every spell all day. Until your Fatespinner's start packing ice power they are directly inferior to anything with it when you break from that mindset you battle one person once per day that almost never happens in a real game.
OK, let's presume that most enemies are around CR=Character level.  The vast majority of the time, your sorcerer will fvcking kill them with two castings of baleful polymorph.  If the enemy saved two times in a row, that's just bad luck (for reference, moving from a success rate of 50% to 60% changes your overall lethality in the first two rounds from 75% to 86%.  An 11% increase in lethality is really nice, but we don't care too much because against most enemies you already raped them), but by the third round your party has killed whatever it is anyways even if the enemy did save.  Now, against the BBEG, Fatespinner is a very nice "Fuck you" class.  Mostly because you get to cast your top level SoD as an immediate action (there's literally no difference between forcing someone to save again and just casting it again) and the fact that you can combine the DC boost with the reroll makes it *very* lethal (an increase from 50% lethality to 91% lethality on the first round for instance).

So, yeah.  Fatespinner is a fucking strong class.  Unless you actually have spells that are notable with persist (hiint: you didn't), then incantatrix isn't actually better.  If you can't understand that, you need to get out of this thread and let the big boys talk.
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Quote
PS: If we're getting to this point, does that mean I win, or are y'all just humoring me?
I think it's to kick your ass in every way possible. I almost never recognize names yet you some how have stood out to me as a troll with a personal vendetta against JaronK set on whining about his tier system. Feel free to change your behavior so I no longer think that of you if you want, I encourage it.
This paragraph amuses me.
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If you do bait someone into fighting you remember a Sorcerer with his Wings of Cover completely blocks the Fatespinner's greatest ability of an effective +15 change to spell DC (which you don't even have).

Ummm, we're not doing PvP.  Like, at all.  PvP doesn't actually prove anything.
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Also, a multiclassed spellcaster tends to ignore spells that target his will save, the relation of getting several +2 bonuses and high advancement of will progression may explain why. You should target the Sorcerer's fort save. Oh yeah, Beguiler, you can't. In that case Solid Fog him and then buff your self with your ever impressive buff list. Cast Blur, Greater Mirror Image and then Invisibility so Greater Mirrior Image/Blur has no purpose, then follow it up with Freedom of Movement(useful) and start casting dispel or spamming your Save or Dies until he runs out of spell slots so you can finally do something. Just beware of Solid Fog ending, it's likely the Sorcerer just stood in there summoning and buffing him self then everyone took ready actions for when it ends since a Beguiler can't do anything to someone hidden in one but use area dispel. If you get too frustrated just charge him. It's your really best option assuming he didn't Polymorph into pretty much anything other than a humanoid welding a rapier. Thankfully SorOs Sorcerer example wasn't smart enough to persist Ruin Delver's Fortune for an even higher will save, though that was probably because he didn't directly intend on fighting a Beguiler so he meant to learn the spell later on. Just in case though, you should battle your super awesome Chuck Norris of a Sorcerer build instead, facing the fort based Burning Blood or enhanced Feeblemind may reveal the fact your dice only have 20s printed on them.
Could you explain to me where exactly this thread became about PvP?  Because last I checked, it wasn't.  Like, at all.  And if you think PvP is a good way to show how strong a class is in play(which is incidentally what this thread is about), you're too stupid to be helped.
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Also, complain if you roll a really high number on your initiative and the Sorcerer rolls super poorly on his save during your first turn and your opponent says to try it again since you winning is solely based on winning initiative. You won by sheer luck in the last round, accept no arguments that undermines it (like saying "I bet you can't do it again now can you?").
What are you even talking about?  Are you still talking about PvP?  Because that has nothing to do with this thread.  Make a new thread and I'll discuss PvP with you if it's really that important to you.

Edit: I didn't address this, but I should.  Nobody takes the fifth level of fatespinner because it costs a CL and only works on enemies with equal or less HD than you.  The guys you'd actually care about enough to drop a CL to kill 1/day tend to have more HD than you.  Fatespinner's greatest ability is not the ability to give -10 to DCs.  It's to drop a SoD as an immediate action (otherwise known as "Save again").
« Last Edit: August 03, 2009, 12:24:39 PM by The Lurker »

Kaelik

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #832 on: August 03, 2009, 03:32:51 PM »
Quote
Does Shivering Touch heal Dex damage?
Yes.
Why? When the duration ends the spell's effect end, regardless of what they were unless noted otherwise.
But why damage and not drain or a penalty? I can only guess. Anything immune to negative energy is immune to drain, this does not fit the flavor at all. As for damage instead of penalty, the entire book has the idea freezing people does dex damage. Either the spell was created like that as an oversight following the trends in the book, or the creator liked to idea of multiple castings to fully freeze someone. *shurgs* We'll never know.

No, the duration does not end the effects of the spell whatever they are. If a spell does dex damage for the duration of the spell, then it does dex damage for the duration of the spell. And then, when the spell ends, you have dex damage. And whatever.

So yeah, Shivering touch may do 3d6 dex damage multiple times, or it may have a duration wording for no reason at all. Who fucking knows, because reading the spell doesn't actually result in knowing what it does. You also have to make something up.

You know, I kinda like getting involves on debates, even if one side has no point. It makes me notice things I missed before. I came into this thinking a Beguiler was awesome because everyone said it was 3rd tier. I'm walking out of this muttering to my self their spell list sucks, royally. But I was also given an idea of how to expand on the list some.

You level 10 Sorcerer has one super awesome spell you fap off to. That spell is also on the Beguiler list. Sucks to be you.

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #833 on: August 03, 2009, 03:39:49 PM »
You level 10 Sorcerer has one super awesome spell you fap off to. That spell is also on the Beguiler list. Sucks to be you.
Beguilers get Draconic Polymorph ???
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Midnight_v

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #834 on: August 03, 2009, 04:30:56 PM »
You level 10 Sorcerer has one super awesome spell you fap off to. That spell is also on the Beguiler list. Sucks to be you.
Beguilers get Draconic Polymorph ???
  :lmao
Brilliant.
I find that there are MANY super awesome level 10 sorceror spells that I'm happy to fap over.
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Ronin

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #835 on: August 03, 2009, 05:15:48 PM »
Why not make a poll to see in witch tier the beguiler fits in ? 

Midnight_v

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #836 on: August 03, 2009, 06:11:31 PM »
Why not make a poll to see in witch tier the beguiler fits in ? 
Well frankly because science cannot be done by consensus. I mean to say instead of looking at what's important and discerning what can actually be done, we are led astray somewhat by "other" factors. Basically a poll wouldn't end anything or prove anything, it just be what we already know, some people feel beguiler tier 2 others tier3. Shrug but the core argument remains.
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ninjarabbit

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #837 on: August 03, 2009, 07:12:41 PM »
The only reason fatespinner is so popular is because it doesn't cost any feats to get into and the skill requirements are minimal. The class abilities are so-so but it's better than taking more levels of sorcerer.

Kaelik

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #838 on: August 03, 2009, 07:43:54 PM »
You level 10 Sorcerer has one super awesome spell you fap off to. That spell is also on the Beguiler list. Sucks to be you.
Beguilers get Draconic Polymorph ???
 :lmao
Brilliant.
I find that there are MANY super awesome level 10 sorceror spells that I'm happy to fap over.

I see neither of you is paying any attention at all.

Let's try this once again.

1) Yes there are lots of level 5 Sorcerer spells that are worth casting. But a level 10 Sorcerer get's to pick only one of those.

2) Now let's talk about the example Sorcerer presented by SorO:

Spells
1st - Any, Enlarge Person, Grease, Nerveskitter, Lesser Orb of Acid.
2nd - Any, Alter Self, Kelgore's Grave Mist, Wings of Cover.
3rd - Greater Shivering Touch, Haste, Summon Monster III.
4th - Burning Blood, Greater Mirror Image.
5th - Feeblemind.

Now let's look at 5th level Beguiler spells:

Break Enchantment, Dominate Person, Feeblemind, Friend to Foe, Hold Monster, Incite Riot, Mind Fog, Rary's Telepathic bon, Seeming, Sending, Swift Etherealness.

See. Isn't that cute how the example Sorcerer choose as his one supper leet best in the universe 5th level spell a spell on the Beguiler list?

Isn't it cute to hear SorO brag about how his level 10 Sorcerer throws down leet Feebleminds to end encounters as proof of how awesome Sorcerers are?

Midnight_v

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #839 on: August 03, 2009, 07:59:51 PM »
The only reason fatespinner is so popular is because it doesn't cost any feats to get into and the skill requirements are minimal. The class abilities are so-so but it's better than taking more levels of sorcerer.
Which is an argument on the behalf of beguiler.

I'd acutally have to say on some level what if you were forced to take 20 levels of the class, obviously beguiler is the stronger choice. It does irk me on some level that Sorc 20 doesn't exist. Meh.
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I see neither of you is paying any attention at all.
 
Good. Please Do stop talking.
Cause everytime you try being snarky, it fails.
 
We've heard your point. You've explained it belaboredly for about 5 pages now. It's not that I don't get it, oh believe me I do your point is taken. It just isn't very impressive really.

I guess its like over the course of 2 levels I'm allowed to chose from every spell in existance (for out intents and purposes)

At the first level you get a selection of very soild spells to choose from, and you know them all but they may or may not be the best, damn good and useful but you lack the option to choose and moreso to choose the best.

I'm thinking I'll choose for myself. Dragonic polymorph for instance or well frankly whatever fits my grand scheme at the time.

However, I'll grant you this. If at anytime the sorceror takes a level in which he chooses a spell which the beguiler has access to (not through optimization but just the rote list in the phb2) then he loses on that level from an objective standpoint. Why 1 spell vs 8-10.
 Now if the thing is if at every level you're getting something different and/or better generally speaking innaccessible to the beguiler list then the sorceror should be winning based upon the strenght of the spell he's chosen.


\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"