Author Topic: Tier System for Classes  (Read 616232 times)

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Nanshork

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #840 on: August 03, 2009, 08:11:22 PM »
You level 10 Sorcerer has one super awesome spell you fap off to. That spell is also on the Beguiler list. Sucks to be you.
Beguilers get Draconic Polymorph ???
 :lmao
Brilliant.
I find that there are MANY super awesome level 10 sorceror spells that I'm happy to fap over.

I see neither of you is paying any attention at all.

Let's try this once again.

1) Yes there are lots of level 5 Sorcerer spells that are worth casting. But a level 10 Sorcerer get's to pick only one of those.

2) Now let's talk about the example Sorcerer presented by SorO:

Spells
1st - Any, Enlarge Person, Grease, Nerveskitter, Lesser Orb of Acid.
2nd - Any, Alter Self, Kelgore's Grave Mist, Wings of Cover.
3rd - Greater Shivering Touch, Haste, Summon Monster III.
4th - Burning Blood, Greater Mirror Image.
5th - Feeblemind.

Now let's look at 5th level Beguiler spells:

Break Enchantment, Dominate Person, Feeblemind, Friend to Foe, Hold Monster, Incite Riot, Mind Fog, Rary's Telepathic bon, Seeming, Sending, Swift Etherealness.

See. Isn't that cute how the example Sorcerer choose as his one supper leet best in the universe 5th level spell a spell on the Beguiler list?

Isn't it cute to hear SorO brag about how his level 10 Sorcerer throws down leet Feebleminds to end encounters as proof of how awesome Sorcerers are?

As a general point, it seems obvious to me that quite a few other people in this debate don't necessarily agree with SorO's choice in spells.  So while SorO might have failed to uphold his point, that doesn't mean that his whole side of the debate is invalidated.
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Kaelik

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #841 on: August 03, 2009, 10:10:50 PM »
So in short Midnight:

"Blah Blah Blah Blah, when you address a specific remark to SorO about his specific Sorcerer build, I'm going to be a whining bitch and demand that every single comment you make be applicable to every single Sorcerer build in existence. Waaaaah!"

Soda

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #842 on: August 03, 2009, 10:40:47 PM »
So in short Kaelik:

"It's exactly because of comments like this that no one listens to me. Waaaaah!"


How about we sum up both sides of the argument into concise statements.
It seems to roughly be:
Sorcerers have access to any awesome arcane spell they could want, but have to choose a very small number.
Beguilers gain a pile of good spells every time they get a new spell level, but lack many of the most powerful spells.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2009, 10:46:07 PM by Soda »

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #843 on: August 03, 2009, 10:50:42 PM »
So in short Midnight:

"Blah Blah Blah Blah, when you address a specific remark to SorO about his specific Sorcerer build, I'm going to be a whining bitch and demand that every single comment you make be applicable to every single Sorcerer build in existence. Waaaaah!"
Yeah but why are you being a whining bitch? I don't get why you'd actually announce that as your goal?
Quote
So in short Kaelik:

"It's exactly because of comments like this that no one listens to me. Waaaaah!"
+1 I mean w...t...h..?

So mean while I've been sitting here contemplating the actual list of spell that are not on that list that sorcerors get that are freaking awesome. I do stand with my earlier comment though if you ever pick as a sorceror as spell on the beguilers list you've kinda been had, in a way.
I'm also wondering does extra spell just let you learn an addtional spell off the sorc wizard list? I've never actually use that feat, I remember the ruling that you can't take it as a duskblade or whatever and gain a new spell not on your list so its worthess for those guys with fixeds lists but how does it interact with sorceror?
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Samb

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #844 on: August 03, 2009, 10:59:53 PM »
While I would agree with lurker and his bunch on how absurd the whole tier system for classes is, I have to say you guys are going about it wrong.

Attacking one particular class only proves a very narrow and specific mistake on JaronK's OP. The fact is that the whole tier system is not valid. Saying beguilers should be tier 2 makes little diffenece when "levels of optimaization" has no meaning.

How much is "standard OP skills" and what is bordering cheese is very vague. While the two extremes are easy to see what you two are just splitting hairs.  The reason why neither of you can come to an agreement is that there was no markers to judge in the first place.  

Funny how this type of debate never escalates into a flame war in the tier classification for PrCs.

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #845 on: August 04, 2009, 12:04:54 AM »
So in short Midnight:

"Blah Blah Blah Blah, when you address a specific remark to SorO about his specific Sorcerer build, I'm going to be a whining bitch and demand that every single comment you make be applicable to every single Sorcerer build in existence. Waaaaah!"
Yeah but why are you being a whining bitch? I don't get why you'd actually announce that as your goal?
Quote
So in short Kaelik:

"It's exactly because of comments like this that no one listens to me. Waaaaah!"
+1 I mean w...t...h..?

So mean while I've been sitting here contemplating the actual list of spell that are not on that list that sorcerors get that are freaking awesome. I do stand with my earlier comment though if you ever pick as a sorceror as spell on the beguilers list you've kinda been had, in a way.
I'm also wondering does extra spell just let you learn an addtional spell off the sorc wizard list? I've never actually use that feat, I remember the ruling that you can't take it as a duskblade or whatever and gain a new spell not on your list so its worthess for those guys with fixeds lists but how does it interact with sorceror?

w...t...h... is this:

SorO: Hey guys, look at my sweet Sorcerer who casts leet Feeblemind. He is way better than stupid Beguilers!
Me: SorO, your Sorcerer picked a Beguiler spell, that's a terrible example.
Midnight: WTF you lying bastard, I did not pick feeblemind! There are so many good Sorcerer spells! You are an Idiot!
Me: Apparently you aren't paying attention. I was talking about SorO's Sorcerer that he actually gave an example of.
Midnight: Shut Up! You are dumb! I choose whatever spells I want! Go away!
Me: WTF, is your name SorO? No? Then stop pretending that statements about him are about you.
Midnight: WTF! You are whiny bitch! I'm not listening to you!

dark_samuari

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #846 on: August 04, 2009, 12:16:53 AM »
Kaelik,

Could you please summarize and collect your main points concerning the subject at hand?

Midnight_v

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #847 on: August 04, 2009, 12:59:18 AM »
So in short Midnight:

"Blah Blah Blah Blah, when you address a specific remark to SorO about his specific Sorcerer build, I'm going to be a whining bitch and demand that every single comment you make be applicable to every single Sorcerer build in existence. Waaaaah!"
Yeah but why are you being a whining bitch? I don't get why you'd actually announce that as your goal?
Quote
So in short Kaelik:

"It's exactly because of comments like this that no one listens to me. Waaaaah!"
+1 I mean w...t...h..?

So mean while I've been sitting here contemplating the actual list of spell that are not on that list that sorcerors get that are freaking awesome. I do stand with my earlier comment though if you ever pick as a sorceror as spell on the beguilers list you've kinda been had, in a way.
I'm also wondering does extra spell just let you learn an addtional spell off the sorc wizard list? I've never actually use that feat, I remember the ruling that you can't take it as a duskblade or whatever and gain a new spell not on your list so its worthess for those guys with fixeds lists but how does it interact with sorceror?

w...t...h... is this:

SorO: Hey guys, look at my sweet Sorcerer who casts leet Feeblemind. He is way better than stupid Beguilers!
Me: SorO, your Sorcerer picked a Beguiler spell, that's a terrible example.
Midnight: WTF you lying bastard, I did not pick feeblemind! There are so many good Sorcerer spells! You are an Idiot!
Me: Apparently you aren't paying attention. I was talking about SorO's Sorcerer that he actually gave an example of.
Midnight: Shut Up! You are dumb! I choose whatever spells I want! Go away!
Me: WTF, is your name SorO? No? Then stop pretending that statements about him are about you.
Midnight: WTF! You are whiny bitch! I'm not listening to you!
I see. If thats your perspective then... then there is indeed some miscommunication going on.   :nonono
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Kaelik

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #848 on: August 04, 2009, 01:00:30 AM »
Kaelik,

Could you please summarize and collect your main points concerning the subject at hand?

Again?

1) A broken game is broken, and therefore, not playable. If you can do 600d6 Force damage as a standard action, your game is not fun to play, it merely consists of you explaining to the DM how many hundreds of overkill you do in damage. D&D is most fun when it involves people fighting actual challenges, Like Druids kicking face and casting sweet spells.

2) Sorcerer's get one sweet spell of their highest level when they level up. Beguilers get 2-4 automatically, and can easily get a lot more.

3) Increased optimization results in Sorcerers getting better spells. It also results in Beguilers getting more and better spells.

4) The Tier system at it's whole is broken. The Tier system makes no sense. If you try to measure without cheese, it makes no sense. If you try to measure with cheese, it makes even less sense. If you start adding PrCs into calculations, the Tier System makes no sense. If you don't add PrCs, it makes no sense. It's also designed for people who don't understand the relative power of different classes and effects, but none the less perfectly optimize their class using obscure online material and six different books.

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #849 on: August 04, 2009, 02:29:24 AM »
Stuff arguing with Kaelik, but not me when Kaelik and Lurker are arguing basically the same points
Argument aside, would you mind evaluating my side by side comparison post?  You're fairly impartial on this (I've never seen you fap to either class really).
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.msg175241#msg175241

Edit: Samb, that's because nobody cares about the rankings for PrCs.  PrCs are pretty consistently a minor power boost to the base class they add to.  Most don't fundamentally change the way the class is played though.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 02:31:40 AM by The Lurker »

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #850 on: August 04, 2009, 02:59:48 AM »
I think the 4-13ish range is were the vast majority of games take place, from my experiance at least. Normally starting is 4+ by about the time 3.5 came out.
So, you basically agree with me about picking levels that see more play?  What level for comparison do you think is most fair?

I agree with your numbers of what levels people play at from my experiance. 4th is a good starting point. They get 2nd level spells and should have some survivability. Then you can level up the 4th level builds and  compare  at 7, 10 and 13. I went up by 3s because I think the sorcerer gets more out of odd levels than the beguiler, and the beguiler gets more out of even levels. Comparisons at 4 levels should be a good number.

I never addressed this, but here we go:
I'm going to simply reverse engineer both of these guys to level 4 because that's easiest on me:
Sorcerer:
1) Improved Initiative
3) Something.  We don't care much.  Craft Wonderous items is pretty nice.  Nymph's kiss is also pretty cool (he could retrain it later or something.

Spells:
0) We don't actually care
1) Enlarge Person (because melee loves you), Charm Person, Nerveskitter
2) Glitterdust (because it wins)

Beguiler:
Feats:
1) Improved initiative
3) Arcane Disciple(death)

Spells:
0) We don't actually care
1) Cause Fear; Charm person, color spray, comprehend languages, detect secret doors, disguise self, expeditious retreat, hypnotism, mage armor, obscuring mist, rouse, silent image, sleep, undetectable alignment, whelm
2) Death Knell; blinding color surge, blur, daze monster, detect thoughts, fog cloud, glitterdust, hypnotic pattern, invisibility, knock, minor image, mirror image, misdirection, see invisibility, silence, spider climb, stay the hand, touch of idiocy, vertigo, whelming burst

So, the sorcerer (and, yes these are spells I do frequently give sorcerers because they are very good) basically nerveskitter and enlarge person competing with fvcking everything the beguiler gets (most importantly: comprehend languages, detect secret doors, disguise self, mage armor, silent image, blur, detect thoughts, invisibility, knock, mirror image, see invisibility, silence, spider climb, and vertigo).

So, yeah.  this is why I don't like level 4.  It's not an issue of being equal.  The beguiler is *better*.   Level 7 comparison?

lans

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #851 on: August 04, 2009, 04:05:11 AM »

I think the 4-13ish range is were the vast majority of games take place, from my experiance at least. Normally starting is 4+ by about the time 3.5 came out.
So, you basically agree with me about picking levels that see more play?  What level for comparison do you think is most fair?

So, the sorcerer (and, yes these are spells I do frequently give sorcerers because they are very good) basically nerveskitter and enlarge person competing with fvcking everything the beguiler gets (most importantly: comprehend languages, detect secret doors, disguise self, mage armor, silent image, blur, detect thoughts, invisibility, knock, mirror image, see invisibility, silence, spider climb, and vertigo).

Glitter dust is damn close to the best spell, web might be decent but its probably only on par at best with glitter.
Quote
So, yeah.  this is why I don't like level 4.  It's not an issue of being equal.  The beguiler is *better*.   Level 7 comparison?


I have to agree with you on this sorcerer << beguiler at this level. So lets move onto 7 then.
 
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 05:06:28 AM by lans »
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #852 on: August 04, 2009, 04:19:50 AM »
At levels 1-3, the sorcerer wins hands down.

One1 word: Pain.



1Power Actually, I just wanted to do that footnote thing.  Carry on.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 04:22:19 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #853 on: August 04, 2009, 04:25:43 AM »
Power Word Pain isn't any better than Color Spray. Sure it will kill them, but in the mean time, they can still kill you. Color Spray on the other hand has a good 60-80% chance of effectively killing them right now.

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #854 on: August 04, 2009, 04:31:22 AM »
Power Word Pain isn't any better than Color Spray. Sure it will kill them, but in the mean time, they can still kill you. Color Spray on the other hand has a good 60-80% chance of effectively killing them right now.
Color spray requires you to be within 15 feet of your opponent(s), and allows a save.  25 feet with no save is significantly better, because any difficult terrain at all will give you the edge when you cast & run.  Combined with caltrops, and you can face things of much higher CR with 0% chance of defeat.

But yeah, I said that mostly to do the footnote thing.
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The Lurker

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #855 on: August 04, 2009, 05:34:13 AM »
At levels 1-3, the sorcerer wins hands down.

One1 word: Pain.



1Power Actually, I just wanted to do that footnote thing.  Carry on.
Honestly, levels 1-3 are so dicy that they aren't of real importance.  Not to say that power word: pain isn't awesome, but simply that it's a somewhat obscure (RotD or something) spell that kills things no save for the three most lethal levels of the game.  It just helps you be slightly more effective (color spray is still pretty win) at the most lethal levels in the game.

So, yeah.  Sorcerer wins at levels 1-3, but this isn't a big deal at all because those levels don't really care what class you are in anyways.

The Lurker

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #856 on: August 04, 2009, 05:52:14 AM »
I have to agree with you on this sorcerer << beguiler at this level. So lets move onto 7 then.
Feats for the sorcerer:
Same as beguiler, except level 3 is something neat but not really game changing (like craft wonderous items)
Feats for the beguiler:
1) Improved initiative
3) Arcane Disciple(death)
6) Mindsight

Spell lists:
Sorcerer:
0) Don't care
1) nerveskitter, enlarge person, charm person, benign transposition, SM1
2) wings of cover, rope trick, ray of stupidity
3) Slow, Stinking Cloud

Beguiler:
0) We don't actually care
1) Cause Fear; Charm person, color spray, comprehend languages, detect secret doors, disguise self, expeditious retreat, hypnotism, mage armor, obscuring mist, rouse, silent image, sleep, undetectable alignment, whelm
2) Death Knell; blinding color surge, blur, daze monster, detect thoughts, fog cloud, glitterdust, hypnotic pattern, invisibility, knock, minor image, mirror image, misdirection, see invisibility, silence, spider climb, stay the hand, touch of idiocy, vertigo, whelming burst
3) Animate Dead; arcane sight, clairaudience/clairvoyance, crown of veils, deep slumber, dispel magic, displacement, glibness, halt, haste, hesitate, hold person, inevitable defeat, invisibility sphere, legion of sentinels, major image, nondetection, slow, suggestion, vertigo field, zone of silence

Now, in this case I'd still say the beguiler is a clear winner.  He has slow just like the sorcerer and instead of stinking cloud he gets dispel magic, vertigo field, and animate dead (plus a bunch of other stuff).  The sorcerer has wings of cover for protection while the beguiler gets mirror image, displacement, and mage armor for protection.  Ray of stupidity, rope trick, nerveskitter, and benign transposition are clear wins to the sorcerer.  Just about everything else is pretty much win for the beguiler.

So, level seven: Beguiler win, correct?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 05:53:56 AM by The Lurker »

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #857 on: August 04, 2009, 07:55:56 AM »
One very important thing: lurker, you shouldnt be the one making the sorcerer as you are trying to show that the beguiler wins. Let someone else do it...

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #858 on: August 04, 2009, 09:18:28 AM »
Beguiler:
Feats:
1) Improved initiative
3) Arcane Disciple(death)
I'm curious what I'm missing:

Arcane Disciple requires 4 ranks of Knowledge (Religion) which is a cross-class skill for the beguiler.  How is he getting more than 3 ranks at 3rd level?
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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #859 on: August 04, 2009, 09:34:15 AM »
One very important thing: lurker, you shouldnt be the one making the sorcerer as you are trying to show that the beguiler wins. Let someone else do it...
I put one forth, the only thing they found wrong with it was it cast Feeblemind. My intent was, wait let me quote here.

See. Isn't that cute how the example Sorcerer choose as his one supper leet best in the universe 5th level spell a spell on the Beguiler list?
Isn't it cute to hear SorO brag about how his level 10 Sorcerer throws down leet Feebleminds to end encounters as proof of how awesome Sorcerers are?
*points to*
Extend/Persist can be done without Incantratix using Residual Magic and Cantrips but I just like the idea of adding save boosters to my example as a kick in the face to the fatespinner so I wanted the bonus feat slots and to do without Residual Magic. The feat selection sets up Spellsurge for double casting per round (and shapechange for 4 per round even later on) and the DC boosters mean it's better at save of suck/dies than the Beguiler build dependent on mind affecting abilities without the crummy once per day stuff.
So my posted build is better at save or dies, and has the versatility of being able to target the fort save instead of just will but got laughed out in an attempt to ignore it.

***

Back to what I was mentioning in my last post. Most of the Beguiler spell list is redundant. Take a look at the following.
1-color spray, hypnotism, sleep, whelm.
2-blinding color surge, daze monster, glitter dust, hypnotic pattern, stay the hand, touch of idiocy, vertigo, whelming burst.
3-deep slumber, halt, hesitate, hold person, slow, suggestion, vertigo field.
4-charm monster, confusion, crushing despair, mass whelm, phantom battle, rainbow pattern.
5-dominate person, feeblemind, friend to foe, hold monster, incite riot, mind fog.
6-mass suggestion, overwhelm, repulsion.
7-mass hold person.
8-demand, scintillating pattern.
9-dominate monster, mass hold monster.
What do they have in common? They are all save or suck/die vs will spells.
Versatility? Hardly, you get to pick what kind of effect happens when the target fails a will save, that's not the kid of versatility I care about. Who cares about debuffing different abilities, just go for death or domination and skip the rest. Anyone that can apply Heighten Spell on the fly can simply learn/prepare a target and area save or die effect and completely replicate or do better all of those spells at once.

Next, blur/displacement, (greater) invisibility, (greater) mirror image. None of those effects stack. If your blurry your clones are not, if your invisible being blurry isn't useful. Being invisible and having one clone pretend to be use is handy, though thats what the image spells, mislead, and arcane fusion are for. The only benefit knowing all of them is that you'll have some sort of miss chance against any foe missing True Sight if you correctly choose to cast the right one.

Another chunk of spells is simply the level up versions of lower level ones, like screen>nondetection>undetectable alignment, greater dispel>dispel, zone of silence>silence, ethereal jaunt>swift etherealness, silent/minor/major image, sphere/greater/mass invisibility, veil>disguise self, project image>mislead, and so on. While it can be useful to know multiple levels of virtually the same spell, it's not that huge of an advantage over someone that has the better one of each series.

Power Word Spells to the Beguiler are high level spells cast to kill weak CR 10ish foes as the Beguiler has no damage dealing spell. Well they have whelm. But that only works on a failed will save, so why not just go for a real save or die effect instead?

I don't think in any way a Beguiler is versatile. It has even less types of spells known than a Sorcerer when it comes down to it. And unlike even a Favored Soul, a Beguiler's offense is solely based on save or die spells that always target will. They can't even target someone's fort save, or deal damage, or buff the party outside of haste or invisibility. In combat the only thing you'll ever see a Beguiler is cast one of two party buffs, a self buff for a miss chance, a save or die vs will effect, and one of like 8 other spells(dispel, their warrior field thing, time stop, solid fog, umm... more save or dies). Out of combat, invisibility is great for the people lacking hide or daylight raids, so is every version of scry (expect scry it's self of course) for locating stuff you may have missed, the image spells always rock, glibness/charm person are handy for NPC interaction as well. I don't see how their out of combat spell list is versatile compared to a Sorcerer. Bluff+Cha is almost as good as glibness by the 10th level (+20) and most people learn greater invisibility and at least one image spell. As for being able to locate stuff, well you can't do absolutely everything as just a tier 2 class.

I think it's flat out required for a Beguiler to take Arcane Disciple multiple times to be useful just as a Druid must take Natural Spell or something and I've heard the beguiler spell list gets kinda meh after they get fifth level spells as well. So 9th level on they keep falling behind everything else as the levels go on.




Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]