Tier System for Classes

[JaronK]

Yes, and you clearly stated as well that you didn't understand why anyone would want a Tier system anyway and that the whole concept was useless... meaning you don't know how to make one.  You also think Factotums are weaker than Rogues, which says a lot, and ranked Dread Necromancers thinking they had Magic Circle (they don't).

More to the point, I believe you took my system, got Frank and a few others to suggest changes, and posted the new list as your own.

Meanwhile, this argument you've never addressed: while the Beguiler can expand his spell list with Arcane Disciple, thus gaining MAD and one or two good spells, the Sorcerer can do the same thing with Mage of the Arcane Order... except that gives him every Wizard and Sorcerer utility spell, which is far superior.  I mean let's face it, the Beguiler doesn't have a single one of the serious power spells except perhaps Time Stop at 18 and Glitterdust at 4 (maybe Color Spray at 1).  Solid spells, yeah, but nothing on a serious power level.  You've managed to show that you can get a couple more by expanding your list a touch with feats (or custom magic items), but nothing coming close to the number of high power spells that a straight Sorcerer can get without even touching feats or items.

Notice the definition of Tier 2... "Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility."  That line describes the relationship between the Sorcerer and the Beguiler very clearly.  One has far higher potential power, the other is very flexible (though only within their niche) but lacks the big power stuff.

Really, your argument is basically the same as the argument that the Mystic Theurge is better than the straight Wizard... that more spells is better than stronger spells.  It's just not true. 

JaronK

[The Lurker]

Yes, and you clearly stated as well that you didn't understand why anyone would want a Tier system anyway and that the whole concept was useless... meaning you don't know how to make one.  You also think Factotums are weaker than Rogues, which says a lot, and ranked Dread Necromancers thinking they had Magic Circle (they don't).

Magic circle doesn't even matter because the CL and DC don't matter.  Don't be an idiot.  Planar binding (the spell we care about) is on the dread necromancer list (important because saves and CL matter for it).

More to the point, I believe you took my system, got Frank and a few others to suggest changes, and posted the new list as your own.

No.  I rewrote it and then post a link to it at TGD to make sure my ideas were correct.  They convinced me that two classes were off from where I'd posted them.  One was rogue.  I can't remember the other.  Tshern is the one that I actually discussed things with before I posted it (as noted in the OP).

Meanwhile, this argument you've never addressed: while the Beguiler can expand his spell list with Arcane Disciple, thus gaining MAD and one or two good spells, the Sorcerer can do the same thing with Mage of the Arcane Order... except that gives him every Wizard and Sorcerer utility spell, which is far superior.  I mean let's face it, the Beguiler doesn't have a single one of the serious power spells except perhaps Time Stop at 18 and Glitterdust at 4 (maybe Color Spray at 1).  Solid spells, yeah, but nothing on a serious power level.  You've managed to show that you can get a couple more by expanding your list a touch with feats (or custom magic items), but nothing coming close to the number of high power spells that a straight Sorcerer can get without even touching feats or items.

You honestly don't consider solid fog or charm monster power spells?  Infinite minions?  Instantly winning combat against anything that doesn't have teleportation (only outsiders at that level)?

Seriously?  No save combat winners are not power spells?  What are you, retarded?

Notice the definition of Tier 2... "Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility."  That line describes the relationship between the Sorcerer and the Beguiler very clearly.  One has far higher potential power, the other is very flexible (though only within their niche) but lacks the big power stuff.

Who cares?

Really, your argument is basically the same as the argument that the Mystic Theurge is better than the straight Wizard... that more spells is better than stronger spells.  It's just not true.  

JaronK

Straw Man.

[Kuroimaken]

Might I suggest we go on to more productive conversation?

It's obvious Lurker has an opinion that he will not back down on, which most everyone else seems to disagree with. It's also obvious that he doesn't seem to have a clue what the Tier system is even FOR (or willfully ignores the purpose for his argument).

As it stands, we're only risking this thread eventually being locked down and someone getting a warning because of the continuing bait-and-switch, passive-aggressive "discussion tactics" that have been employed so far. If you're not willing to listen, you forfeit the privilege of being listened to. Dan2 has already had to play doctor on this thread once, let's hope he doesn't think it's a terminal patient.

Seriously guys... even the Truenamer discussion spun in less circles than this.

[The Lurker]

Might I suggest we go on to more productive conversation?

It's obvious Lurker has an opinion that he will not back down on, which most everyone else seems to disagree with. It's also obvious that he doesn't seem to have a clue what the Tier system is even FOR (or willfully ignores the purpose for his argument).

As it stands, we're only risking this thread eventually being locked down and someone getting a warning because of the continuing bait-and-switch, passive-aggressive "discussion tactics" that have been employed so far. If you're not willing to listen, you forfeit the privilege of being listened to. Dan2 has already had to play doctor on this thread once, let's hope he doesn't think it's a terminal patient.

Seriously guys... even the Truenamer discussion spun in less circles than this.

You have yet to address any of my points effectively.

[Nanshork]

Might I suggest we go on to more productive conversation?

It's obvious Lurker has an opinion that he will not back down on, which most everyone else seems to disagree with. It's also obvious that he doesn't seem to have a clue what the Tier system is even FOR (or willfully ignores the purpose for his argument).

As it stands, we're only risking this thread eventually being locked down and someone getting a warning because of the continuing bait-and-switch, passive-aggressive "discussion tactics" that have been employed so far. If you're not willing to listen, you forfeit the privilege of being listened to. Dan2 has already had to play doctor on this thread once, let's hope he doesn't think it's a terminal patient.

Seriously guys... even the Truenamer discussion spun in less circles than this.

You have yet to address any of my points effectively.

They think they have, you think they haven't.  I've been watching this argument unfold and neither side is going to back down, so what's the point?

[The Lurker]

Might I suggest we go on to more productive conversation?

It's obvious Lurker has an opinion that he will not back down on, which most everyone else seems to disagree with. It's also obvious that he doesn't seem to have a clue what the Tier system is even FOR (or willfully ignores the purpose for his argument).

As it stands, we're only risking this thread eventually being locked down and someone getting a warning because of the continuing bait-and-switch, passive-aggressive "discussion tactics" that have been employed so far. If you're not willing to listen, you forfeit the privilege of being listened to. Dan2 has already had to play doctor on this thread once, let's hope he doesn't think it's a terminal patient.

Seriously guys... even the Truenamer discussion spun in less circles than this.

You have yet to address any of my points effectively.

They think they have, you think they haven't.  I've been watching this argument unfold and neither side is going to back down, so what's the point?

I've already swayed two people (Kaelik and Braithwaite).  There's a good chance I can sway more.

[lans]

Meanwhile, this argument you've never addressed: while the Beguiler can expand his spell list with Arcane Disciple, thus gaining MAD and one or two good spells, the Sorcerer can do the same thing with Mage of the Arcane Order... except that gives him every Wizard and Sorcerer utility spell, which is far superior

That is a prestige class that is considered to be +1 tier, as such it should be up a tier from where some people are trying to argue the beguiler to. Unless a feat and prestige class that takes 3 feats to enter are considered equal levels of optimization, then this isn't a point.

[The Lurker]

Meanwhile, this argument you've never addressed: while the Beguiler can expand his spell list with Arcane Disciple, thus gaining MAD and one or two good spells, the Sorcerer can do the same thing with Mage of the Arcane Order... except that gives him every Wizard and Sorcerer utility spell, which is far superior

That is a prestige class that is considered to be +1 tier, as such it should be up a tier from where some people are trying to argue the beguiler to. Unless a feat and prestige class that takes 3 feats to enter are considered equal levels of optimization, then this isn't a point.

It doesn't even matter.  Mage of the arcane order is just a shitty PrC.  It's not worth the level investment at all.  Nobody cares if you can cast utility spells via MotAO.  Really, it isn't that important since there are so few spells you'd want from it.

To expand on why MotAO is a shitty PrC...
1) It requires at least two shit feats (arcane preparation, cooperative spell).  Sorcerers really don't get that many feats.  Assuming a human sorcerer, that's seriously half his feats at level 6 when he gets into the PrC.  His other feats can only be extend spell and one other feat of his choice.
2) Spellpool sucks.  If you want anything remotely close to your top level, you can only do it once per day (you get spell levels = CL/2 each day)
3) It's limited to PHB spells and "any additional spells designated by the DM"

Pros: It grants two bonus feats (netting you exactly as many feats you care about as if you'd never taken the class in the first place, but three MUST be metamagic).

So, basically you sink 7 levels (or 9 if you want to get net 0 feats) to cast one spell on the fly once per day.

Fuck, just take limited wish.  It's a lot less hassle.  MotAO sucks.

[Gods_Trick]

  Optimization is a tricky thing. Anyone willing to present a RAW, non-infinity looping build (that 95% of CO'ers would agree isn't TO)for the Tier 3s? Best way to show Beguiler is a T2 is by outperforming all the T3's with a build a sane GM would allow.

  Apologies for requesting someone else to do this; I can put up a build but it wouldn't scratch a real optimised one  The idea is good, debate becomes useless when it's a trading of opinions. We can then put a poll up and get a consensus.

[lans]

What tier would a divine caster that has a wizards body, and could only cast exalted and/or corrupt spells be?

[jseah]

Shall we define a game type?  I propose one that allows the classes to really show their power but blocks insta-wins.  Most sources allowed, with Dragon Magazine given a very critical eye and third party not allowed.  

Eg. Pun-pun, infinite wishes, infinite xp and most infinite-anything aren't allowed.  Anything that needs more than secondary school physics to understand doesn't work either.  

But things like holing the walls in the dungeon and scry-and-die runs free and undead army generation meets with IC resistance but is allowed to fly. (it has it's own set of problems if NPCs are up to 13th level)  We can also assume the world is reasonably populated and leveled.  Meaning you can't expect law enforcement to be pushovers until level 15+.  Eberron-like is a nice setting style.  The performance of the classes should be compared over different levels.  
 - Magic item marts can be assumed to sort of exist.  

Now compare 1 beguiler and 1 sorcerer.  You have that 1 character without party members.  Anything you can get from NPCs is fair game.  NPCs can be assumed to be apathetic and not join you on missions (leadership not allowed) unless forcibly coerced or hugely bribed.  They will defend themselves and run to authority but otherwise just go about their daily business.  They also follow fantasy conventions in battle, meaning no invisible flying wizard tossing silent SoDs.  

The two of them have a set of missions they have to complete (in any order and at leisure, but knowing it's a race against the other guy), from clearing a dungeon to retrieving a Macguffin and finally end up fighting each other.  Like any sword and sorcery campaign except they are each other's BBEG.  Use as many cliches as you want, unbreakable door with key in accessible room, kidnapped princess, timed collapsing fortress.  

Look closely at their spell lists.  Who do you think nukes the entire dungeon to clear it, teleport-retrieves the Macguffin sitting a treasure room, phases through the wall by the impassable door, teleports away the kidnapped NPC, or otherwise easily negates the entire point of a dungeon crawl?  Which character do you think holds the strategic advantage in getting stuff done faster, controlling the population, and outright winning a war scenario in seconds, and generally succeeding at everything he does while impeding the opposition?

It's a closer run than both sides think.  The beguiler has good diplomacy and can enlist NPC help easily.  The sorcerer has major strategic spell advantage (since scrolls/wands/staves can be bought).  
But when it comes down to it, do you really think the beguiler can change the face of the game as easily as the sorcerer can?  The sorcerer isn't going to be playing in a standard sword and sorcery way.  Collapse the mountain on Smaug, detect and prevent the kidnapping a week before it happens, swarm the golem with your personal army.  It just isn't the same game anymore.  The sky's the limit, and with enough preparation, the sorcerer really looks like the wizard but slower.  

Can the beguiler do the same?

[Gods_Trick]

Shall we define a game type?  I propose one that allows the classes to really show their power but blocks insta-wins.  Most sources allowed, with Dragon Magazine given a very critical eye and third party not allowed.  

Eg. Pun-pun, infinite wishes, infinite xp and most infinite-anything aren't allowed.  Anything that needs more than secondary school physics to understand doesn't work either.  

But things like holing the walls in the dungeon and scry-and-die runs free and undead army generation meets with IC resistance but is allowed to fly. (it has it's own set of problems if NPCs are up to 13th level)  We can also assume the world is reasonably populated and leveled.  Meaning you can't expect law enforcement to be pushovers until level 15+.  Eberron-like is a nice setting style.  The performance of the classes should be compared over different levels.  
 - Magic item marts can be assumed to sort of exist.  

Now compare 1 beguiler and 1 sorcerer.  You have that 1 character without party members.  Anything you can get from NPCs is fair game.  NPCs can be assumed to be apathetic and not join you on missions (leadership not allowed) unless forcibly coerced or hugely bribed.  They will defend themselves and run to authority but otherwise just go about their daily business.  They also follow fantasy conventions in battle, meaning no invisible flying wizard tossing silent SoDs.  

The two of them have a set of missions they have to complete (in any order and at leisure, but knowing it's a race against the other guy), from clearing a dungeon to retrieving a Macguffin and finally end up fighting each other.  Like any sword and sorcery campaign except they are each other's BBEG.  Use as many cliches as you want, unbreakable door with key in accessible room, kidnapped princess, timed collapsing fortress.  

Look closely at their spell lists.  Who do you think nukes the entire dungeon to clear it, teleport-retrieves the Macguffin sitting a treasure room, phases through the wall by the impassable door, teleports away the kidnapped NPC, or otherwise easily negates the entire point of a dungeon crawl?  Which character do you think holds the strategic advantage in getting stuff done faster, controlling the population, and outright winning a war scenario in seconds, and generally succeeding at everything he does while impeding the opposition?

It's a closer run than both sides think.  The beguiler has good diplomacy and can enlist NPC help easily.  The sorcerer has major strategic spell advantage (since scrolls/wands/staves can be bought).  
But when it comes down to it, do you really think the beguiler can change the face of the game as easily as the sorcerer can?  The sorcerer isn't going to be playing in a standard sword and sorcery way.  Collapse the mountain on Smaug, detect and prevent the kidnapping a week before it happens, swarm the golem with your personal army.  It just isn't the same game anymore.  The sky's the limit, and with enough preparation, the sorcerer really looks like the wizard but slower.  

Can the beguiler do the same?

  I like your thinking my man, but unless its actually run it's not concrete. And by dog do we like it hard, concrete hard. Is there a module that is universally non-biased?

[The Lurker]

But when it comes down to it, do you really think the beguiler can change the face of the game as easily as the sorcerer can?  The sorcerer isn't going to be playing in a standard sword and sorcery way.  Collapse the mountain on Smaug, detect and prevent the kidnapping a week before it happens, swarm the golem with your personal army.  It just isn't the same game anymore.  The sky's the limit, and with enough preparation, the sorcerer really looks like the wizard but slower.  

Can the beguiler do the same?

Let's look at level ten (because levels past that point are increasingly hard to play).

Here's the "standard" sorcerer spell progression from this thread

1st: 4 0-Level spells (caltrops, detect magic, read magic, prestidigitation) and 2 1st-Level spells (color spray, enlarge person)
2nd: 1 0-level spell (silent portal)
3rd: 1 1st-level spell (grease)
4th: 1 0-level spell (mage hand) and 1 2nd-level spell (glitterdust)
5th: 1 1st-level spell (benign transposition) and 1 2nd-level spell (rope trick; use a least rod of extend)
6th: 1 0-level spell (ray of frost; for cold beer), 1 3rd-level (Slow), and the ability to swap out a 1st-level spell (color spray => nerveskitter)
7th: 1 1st-level spell (SM1 = trapmonkey), 1 2nd-level (Ray of stupidity) and 1 3rd-level spell (stinking cloud)
8th: 1 0-level spell (Mending), 1 3rd-level spell (Haste), 1 4th-level spell (EBT) and the ability to swap out a 2nd-level spell (glitterdust => wings of cover)
9th: 1 2nd-level spell (False life), 1 3rd-level spell (Phantom Steed) and 1 4th-level spell (Polymorph for utility)
10th: 1 0-level spell (we don't even care any more), 1 4th-level spell (Greater Mirror Image), 1 5th-level spell (Baleful Polymorph) and the ability to swap out a 3rd-level spell (stinking cloud becomes GMW)
11th: 1 3rd-level spell (Heroism), 1 4th-level spell (Assay Spell Resistance) and 1 5th-level spell (Greater mirror image)
12th: 1 6th-level spell (Acid fog) and the ability to swap out a 4th-level spell (EBT => Wings of Flurry)
13th: 1 4th-level spell (Resist energy, mass), 1 5th-level spell (Greater Blink) and 1 6th-level spell (Greater anticipate teleportation)
14th: 1 7th-level spell (Stun ray) and the ability to swap out a 5th-level spell (Flesh to stone => Magic Jar)
15th: 1 5th-level spell (Mindfog), 1 6th-level spell (Superior Resistance) and 1 7th-level spell (Prismatic spray)
16th: 1 8th-level spell (Greater Arcane Fusion) and the ability to swap out a 6th-level spell (we don't)
17th: 1 7th-level spell (Spell Turning) and 1 8th-level spell (Polymorph any object)
18th: 1 9th-level spell (Shapechange) and the ability to swap a 7th-level spell (open for suggestions)
19th: 1 8th-level spell (mind blank) and 1 9th-level spell (Time Stop)
20th: 1 9th-level spell (Maw of chaos) and the ability to swap a 7th-level spell (open to suggestion)

Would you consider that fair?  I stuck to Core+SC+Completes (mage for arcane fusion) for simplicity.  Let's look at level ten.  Here's our mildly optimized sorcerer.  We'll make him a lesser aasimar since cha bonuses are cool.  His levels will be Sorcerer 5/ Mindbender (to qualify, we'll just replace grease with charm person) 1/ Fatespinner 4
His feats will be:
1) Improved Initiative
3) Heighten spell (so that we don't need to worry too much about using the top level spell for offense)
6) Mindsight
9) Rapid Metamagic

Spells:
0) caltrops, detect magic, read magic, prestidigitation, silent portal, mage hand, ray of frost, mending, we don't care anymore
1) nerveskitter, enlarge person, charm person, benign transposition, SM1
2) wings of cover, rope trick, ray of stupidity, false life
3) slow, GMW, haste, phantom steed
4) EBT, polymorph, greater mirror image
5) baleful polymorph

Does that all seem pretty fair so far?

Here's our beguiler:
Dragonborn Grey Elf (middle aged because we need it) beguiler 5/ mindbender 1/ fatespinner 4
Feats:
1) Improved initiative
3) Arcane Disciple(death)
6) Mindsight
8) Arcane Disciple(travel)

Spells known:
0) We don't actually care
1) Longstrider, Cause Fear; Charm person, color spray, comprehend languages, detect secret doors, disguise self, expeditious retreat, hypnotism, mage armor, obscuring mist, rouse, silent image, sleep, undetectable alignment, whelm
2) Death Knell, Locate object; blinding color surge, blur, daze monster, detect thoughts, fog cloud, glitterdust, hypnotic pattern, invisibility, knock, minor image, mirror image, misdirection, see invisibility, silence, spider climb, stay the hand, touch of idiocy, vertigo, whelming burst
3) Fly, Animate Dead; arcane sight, clairaudience/clairvoyance, crown of veils, deep slumber, dispel magic, displacement, glibness, halt, haste, hesitate, hold person, inevitable defeat, invisibility sphere, legion of sentinels, major image, nondetection, slow, suggestion, vertigo field, zone of silence
4) Death Ward, Diminsion Door; charm monster, confusion, crushing despair, freedom of movement, greater invisibility, greater mirror image, locate creature, mass whelm, phantom battle, rainbow pattern, solid fog
5) Slay Living, Teleport; break enchantment, dominate person, feeblemind, friend to foe, hold monster, incite riot, mond fog, rary's telepathic bond, seeming, sending, swift etherealness
Advanced Learnings: Distract Asssailant, Ray of Stupidity

Both have SoL effects, BC, teleportation effects, and movement abilities (beguiler has better teleportation while the sorcerer has better tactical movement with phantom steed).  For out of combat stuff, the sorcerer has polymorph and benign transposition.  The beguiler has everything from animate dead to teleport to clairaudience/clairvoyance.  Clear win to beguiler for out of combat utility and world changing.  Sorcerer and beguiler are close enough in combat ability that there isn't a real argument there.

Now, I have one question for you.

Is Beguiler a tier 2 class?

[jseah]

XD  That... is actually a pretty cool argument.  
Things I would change for sorcerer:
 - Haste is kinda... useless, IMO.  SMIII much much better
 - Greater Magic Weapon?  What for?  And it has no dispel magic?!
 - False Life should be Invisibility

+ for sorcerer over the beguiler:
Baleful Polymorph
Nerveskitter
Rope Trick
Phantom Steed (better than Fly)
Wings of Cover

+ for beguiler over sorcerer:
Detect Thoughts
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Teleport
Non-detection
Freedom of Movement
Dominate Person

Bolded ones are the ones with major impact.  Looks like it's actually slightly in favour of the beguiler but of course, I'm sure some people might change the build.  How does a sorcerer with Mage of the Arcane Order look like?

Have you included items?  I'm not too versed in sorcerers and beguilers but I'm sure there's a simple way to increase spells known with items.  

Now let's see what happens at 5, 15 and 20, in order of importance?  k?

[Midnight_v]

[spoiler]
Maybe the argument becomes "anyone who gets 9th level spells" especially if you make a list of them like "THESE" 9th level spells put you on this tier.

  Though frankly I find the arcane disciple bit irrelavant for comparative analysis frankly, its not like its sorc only so its in dead horse land. Its repeated sooo much these last few pages you'd think its was a class ability of beguilers. *shrug*. Still though, I think a better scenario is one in which you attempt to show how they are far and above better than the remainder of the tier 3.
  You may be meeting resistance for various personaly bias's as well as very well thought out arguments that counter your own.

 Not that I agree with you, and as you've so blandly pointed out I've never actually played a beguiler. Though I have played sorcerors, I realize that convincing "me" at least may be made more difficult due to my optimization skill swaying my opinion.
 I mentioned it before, so i figured I'd reiterate. You've argued about 4 pages about how the beguiler > the Sorceror.
Considering its largely a red herring that dissuaded from the orignal argument its worthless to persue that course anyway if met with resolute opposition to the contrary.

 The original idea was "The beguiler belongs on tier 2" okay maybe, the arugment "because its greater than or equal to the sorceror or Favored soul" doesn't seem to meet with a positive reception.
 Therefore, regardless as to whether or not thats the case, if you are correct in your orignial argument, it would be very easy. . . very very easy to demonstrate how the beguiler is simply more powerful than all the other things in its tier.
  This is a logical and reasonable way to reach a proof, as opposed to banging ones head against the wall with an unreceptive idea.
Proving that the Beguiler is just better than everything else in its tier should work too.

ALTERNATIVELY



Take the definition of tier 3.

 Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior

and the definition of tier 2

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways.  Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Examples: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges)  

and instead of attacking and individual class on that list, point out how the beguiler fits more with this definition than the previous works better and probbably is more antagonistic.
I suppose I could give examples of this within other tiers but... I'm sure none of us need to have it needlessly drawn out on a chalkboard.
[/spoiler]

I reclassified every single class waaaaaaay back.  Do you honestly think I care about convincing everyone that beguiler is tier two?  Because that's just a single point.  Until the point that I am IP banned (or get bored, probably that one) I'm going to go point by point logically proving that different aspects of JaronK's tier system are not only wrong, but that his entire criteria are stupid.  You know where we end up when I'm done?
With a lot more people understanding the game better and a lot less groupthink.  Hopefully, this will result in better designers for homebrew and such.  If I'm *really* lucky, I'll be able to get a few people to accept why the Tomes are good.

But bare minimum, I'm going to make a mockery of JaronK's understanding of the game and be entertained for the last month of summer.  Y'know, because I like pointing out holes in logical thought process.

  No, little brother, I know exactly what you have in mind, and it damn sure isn't about the beguiler... Once I got your message I realized what the deal was and what you were shooting for. .  It just seems like an odd way to approach it is all.
  I think you'll get bored way before you convince people to move to the tome series even if it is flat out a better system, it CERTAINLY has the best fluff/background/world veiw. Borderlands of the Sahugin? I mean really brilliant, regardless as to whether or not I'd use the rules I'm in love with that setting.
  Also I've noticed... how much 4th stole from the tome series like the whole idea of "Marking" is from franks knight (or was that samurai), which hell came out before even the phb2 knight. He was just too far correct and ahead of his time in gaming to be generally accepted.
 He'res the deal though... I M O attacking the tier system is not big enough to achieve you goals as its not universally accepted. The tomes is a better system but people are really spread out in what they're playing right now. 4th, 3.X, Pathfinder... and though the tomes is the best series out there Frank doesn't even advertise it and it doesn't have art *which the human mind just falls right into visual effects. You KNOW this...
So while you try to move people with steady dedication to logic and are actually preaching something better, silly thematics and stubborness are what keeps people in place.  'jus saying.

 
I also knew this would eventually boil down to throwing around builds at each other so whe might as well get to the inevitable conclusion.

[Braithwaite]

It's obvious Lurker has an opinion that he will not back down on, which most everyone else seems to disagree with. It's also obvious that he doesn't seem to have a clue what the Tier system is even FOR (or willfully ignores the purpose for his argument).

I've already swayed two people (Kaelik and Braithwaite).  There's a good chance I can sway more.

I'm pretty sure Ians was agreeing with us. I am almost positive that Samb felt the same way (because he thinks anything with UMD should be up a tier). I'm really not sure what popular opinion is. If you wanted to make a poll, then it might be obvious.

[Braithwaite]

I doubt we're talking about the same Dweomerkeeper, by the way (I'm referring to the one in the Complete Divine Web Enhancement). The Sorcerer dip can be completely ignored by means of the magical training feat (since the Dweomerkeeper entry in the CD WE doesn't specify levels). The Cleric dip can be averted by taking a level in Contemplative instead, though in that case it's a late bloomer (and either way you don't get to be able to enter Dweomerkeeper until level 5 due to skill requirements).

You're right. I saw the one in faiths in pantheons. The web enhancement is much better. Thats a sharp class. Of course, when you take Versatile Spellcaster (RoD) for early entry, Magical Training (Faerun PG), and a dip or a PRC to enter a prestige class in a web supplement that I suspect most people don't know exists, there can't be much doubt that you are talking about top tier optimization in a lenient game, so you will be standing next to a Shadowcraft beguiler flinging shadow miracle. I'll call that a draw.

There's nothing particularly broken and/or cheesy about the Versatile Spellcaster entry trick. No PrC that I know of offers a casting progression of its own before you should be able to get those spells (I.E. no 4th-level spells before level 8, for example), so either way you're not actually getting ahead of anyone - you're trading your regular class features for those the PrC offers, and that doesn't garantee that the game will break (quite often because the class features themselves aren't made to work at lower levels). Think of it this way. A Human Ranger can take the Wildshape ACF and qualify for Master of Many Forms by level 2. Sure he gets access to all different creature types (excluding outsider, undead and construct, unless he becomes one), but he won't be able to use them until he becomes higher level, due to HD constraints. Something similar occurs with a Versatile Spellcaster - you're essentially trading a feat in for a set of different class features, but whether they'll be useful or not depends a lot on the PrC in question, and that's not even taking into account feats the class itself may require.

1. Unless there is a different wildshape ranger variant, Unearthed Arcana says they get WS as Druid, which in context of the page means at the same level. Please tell me this is wrong, I have a friend who playes MoMFs who will love you forever.

2. C'mon Kuro. That feat says that you can trade 2 lower level spells to cast an upper level spell that you know. The easiest reading is to say that you dont know spells above the highest level that you can cast, so it doesn't give you spells you couldn't cast before, it only gives you more flexibility in your daily casting (and it is still a good feat). Arguing that it does let you cast spells above your max level, and THEREFORE you should get early entry to dozens of classes otherwise entered at 6 or 7th level, is cheesy.

[InnaBinder]

  Optimization is a tricky thing. Anyone willing to present a RAW, non-infinity looping build (that 95% of CO'ers would agree isn't TO)for the Tier 3s? Best way to show Beguiler is a T2 is by outperforming all the T3's with a build a sane GM would allow.

  Apologies for requesting someone else to do this; I can put up a build but it wouldn't scratch a real optimised one  The idea is good, debate becomes useless when it's a trading of opinions. We can then put a poll up and get a consensus.

With or without Flaws? I'll toss a couple mid-level builds up for you if everyone's still interested, though I suspect that it might come down to 'this particular build is better/worse than this specific example', one way or the other.  I'm not an optimization gawd by any means, either.

[Braithwaite]

Maybe the argument becomes "anyone who gets 9th level spells" especially if you make a list of them like "THESE" 9th level spells put you on this tier.

I don't think this is a bad argument for 18-20 power, but the tier system is supposed to be about mid levels first. An optimized Warmage or Healer can pick up most of the most broken 9th level spells. Their problem is how much they suck on the way there. A beguiler competes at pretty much every level.

Though frankly I find the arcane disciple bit irrelavant for comparative analysis frankly, its not like its sorc only so its in dead horse land. Its repeated sooo much these last few pages you'd think its was a class ability of beguilers. *shrug*.

Can you talk about Druid without Natural Spell? The reason JaronK hasn't seen a bunch of Arcane Disciple beguilers is that he admits that in the games he is in they are all Shadowcraft Mages. If I play a beguiler, I am going to expand his spell list. There are 2 ways to do that easily, Prestige Class or Arcane Disciple. If we talk about the prestige classes, the debate gets sidelined by marginally relevant arguments about whether SCM or dweomerkeeper is better, and ends up with a statement that X prestige class is a +1 or +2 tier PRC. So we wind up talking about builds that are straight 20 builds (although somehow the Favored Soul always gets his cleric dip or PRC for turn attempts, which is about as fair as saying that fighters are tier 3 because they can dip warblade). It is unfair to talk about beguilers without talking about the easy tool that they use to become tier 2.

Still though, I think a better scenario is one in which you attempt to show how they are far and above better than the remainder of the tier 3.

I think that that is impossible to do. Beguiler = sorcerer is a statement I am comfortable with, or at least a meaningful argument. Beguiler = or > Favored Soul is in my opinion an even better argument. Beguiler > a dozen different classes with wildly different abilities at different levels is a quagmire. For example if I argued that Beguiler beats Swordsage because of Polymorph abuse through arcane disciple, you point out that Dread Necro has the same trick. Then if I argue that Beguiler beats Dread Necro through skillmonkey, you point out that factotum can skillmonkey just as well. If you can get a consensus on what the best tier 3 class is (aside from beguiler) I think we can argue that beguiler beats it. A dozen different threads on Beguiler beats x is pointless.

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways.  Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Examples: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges)  
and instead of attacking and individual class on that list, point out how the beguiler fits more with this definition than the previous works better and probbably is more antagonistic.
I suppose I could give examples of this within other tiers but... I'm sure none of us need to have it needlessly drawn out on a chalkboard.

Honestly, I think Foresight and Time Stop should be enough. There is no level where the beguiler spell list is not comparable to a well built Favored Soul or Sorcerer. There are vanishingly few game breaking tricks that a Favored soul or Sorcerer can do that a Beguiler cannot duplicate with arcane disciple, while at the same time having a class spell list filled full of awesome (which is where it comes out ahead of Dread Necro or Warmage).

[The Lurker]

XD  That... is actually a pretty cool argument.  
Things I would change for sorcerer:
 - Haste is kinda... useless, IMO.  SMIII much much better
 - Greater Magic Weapon?  What for?  And it has no dispel magic?!
 - False Life should be Invisibility

Well, sorcerers cast on the fly.  I feel pretty confident that false life would get more use than invisibility (especially since there are quite a few items that will grant you a round or three of invisibility a day on the cheap).
Haste is kinda useless for a solo beguiler, but I don't think SM3 would be that much better at this level.  I say we trade haste for Dispel Magic (even at the CL 10 cap it's still pretty handy for dispelling traps and such).
GMW was assuming a party setting, so we should throw that right out.  I say we replace it with Protection from Energy.

+ for sorcerer over the beguiler:
Baleful Polymorph
Nerveskitter
Rope Trick
Phantom Steed (better than Fly)
Wings of Cover

+ for beguiler over sorcerer:
Detect Thoughts
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Teleport
Non-detection
Freedom of Movement
Dominate Person

Bolded ones are the ones with major impact.  Looks like it's actually slightly in favour of the beguiler but of course, I'm sure some people might change the build.  How does a sorcerer with Mage of the Arcane Order look like?

Have you included items?  I'm not too versed in sorcerers and beguilers but I'm sure there's a simple way to increase spells known with items.  

I have not yet, but these guys only have 49k to spend.  Assuming the sorcerer doesn't blow more than a quarter of his wealth on a runestafff, he's not going to get a whole lot better than a runestaff of eyes for 11k gp (arcane eye 3/day, see invisibility 3/day and remove blindness/deafness 3/day).  That's a little bit of utlity added, but not that much.

So really, I don't see wealth as mattering that much.  The sorcerer might have a custom runestaff to add a bit more power to his arsenal, while the beguiler might have a couple swift action partly charged wands to use with UMD and some scrolls for niche spells.  But your spell points are very accurate.  Reposting with changes:
Lesser Aasimar
His feats will be:
1) Improved Initiative
3) Heighten spell (so that we don't need to worry too much about using the top level spell for offense)
6) Mindsight
9) Rapid Metamagic

Spells:
0) caltrops, detect magic, read magic, prestidigitation, silent portal, mage hand, ray of frost, mending, we don't care anymore
1) nerveskitter, enlarge person, charm person, benign transposition, SM1
2) wings of cover, rope trick, ray of stupidity, false life
3) slow, protection from energy, dispel magic, phantom steed
4) EBT, polymorph, greater mirror image
5) baleful polymorph

Does that all seem pretty fair so far?

Here's our beguiler:
Dragonborn Grey Elf (middle aged because we need it) beguiler 5/ mindbender 1/ fatespinner 4
Feats:
1) Improved initiative
3) Arcane Disciple(death)
6) Mindsight
 Arcane Disciple(travel)

Spells known:
0) We don't actually care
1) Longstrider, Cause Fear; Charm person, color spray, comprehend languages, detect secret doors, disguise self, expeditious retreat, hypnotism, mage armor, obscuring mist, rouse, silent image, sleep, undetectable alignment, whelm
2) Death Knell, Locate object; blinding color surge, blur, daze monster, detect thoughts, fog cloud, glitterdust, hypnotic pattern, invisibility, knock, minor image, mirror image, misdirection, see invisibility, silence, spider climb, stay the hand, touch of idiocy, vertigo, whelming burst
3) Fly, Animate Dead; arcane sight, clairaudience/clairvoyance, crown of veils, deep slumber, dispel magic, displacement, glibness, halt, haste, hesitate, hold person, inevitable defeat, invisibility sphere, legion of sentinels, major image, nondetection, slow, suggestion, vertigo field, zone of silence
4) Death Ward, Diminsion Door; charm monster, confusion, crushing despair, freedom of movement, greater invisibility, greater mirror image, locate creature, mass whelm, phantom battle, rainbow pattern, solid fog
5) Slay Living, Teleport; break enchantment, dominate person, feeblemind, friend to foe, hold monster, incite riot, mond fog, rary's telepathic bond, seeming, sending, swift etherealness
Advanced Learnings: Distract Asssailant

Now let's see what happens at 5, 15 and 20, in order of importance?  k?

Well, do you agree that these guys are roughly on par with each other?  If you do, we can move right on to level 5.