Tier System for Classes

[lans]

What do the increased ability scores do that increases combat effectiveness? They mostly just add to damage.

Mostly I look at it like this:
You play an orc that has a +4 racial bonus to Strength. You roll an 18 and put it in your Strength. You have a 22, which is worth a +6. Then you rage, boosting yourself to 26, which is worth +8. If you pick up Reckless Rage (or any of a handful of other easy feats within reach) that goes up another +2, for 28, a +9. If you have anyone in the party who can cast bull's strength (mind you, this is the first time you're looking for anything beyond yourself, here) you can get up to a 32, which is a +11. Let's say you go Orc Racial Paragon and pick up your nice 3rd-level +2 to strength, you're at a whopping 36 Strength, which is worth +13 modifier.

What did I use?
Orc race; barbarian 1/orc paragon 3; Reckless Rage
plus one friend who could be anyone who can cast off the cleric or sorcerer list (which is a lot)

So your good for 1 fight a day, I'll assume extra rages for your 3rd level feat.
So +6 from rage, +2 from orc paragon. You have +4 to hit and +6 to damage. My fighter 1/orcparagon 3 takes reckless offense, power attack, cleave. Then I sell my soul for another two feats because fighters can do that, unlike barbarians. I Pick up weapon focus and weapon spec. That leaves your build with +3 on damage, +3 on trips,  versus cleave and power attack.

[dither]

So your good for 1 fight a day, I'll assume extra rages for your 3rd level feat.
So +6 from rage, +2 from orc paragon. You have +4 to hit and +6 to damage. My fighter 1/orcparagon 3 takes reckless offense, power attack, cleave. Then I sell my soul for another two feats because fighters can do that, unlike barbarians. I Pick up weapon focus and weapon spec. That leaves your build with +3 on damage, +3 on trips,  versus cleave and power attack.

The orc paragon class isn't necessary, and for 2 fewer strength (all the benefit I was taking from orc paragon) you still have a whopping 34 Strength for, not one, but two encounters per day. Maybe four if you take Extra Rage (+2 rages) and convince your cleric/wizard-casting friend that it's a good idea to buff you. If not, you're still sitting at a 30 Strength four times per day. That's four fights, not one.

30 Strength is a +10 modifier, which is a +10 bonus to attack and a +15 bonus to damage if you wield a two-handed weapon.

Plus, you look good in skulls and a loincloth.

[ErhnamDJ]

No mention of Whirling Frenzy? What about trapfinding (barbarians get that too, and using survival to boot)?

[dither]

No mention of Whirling Frenzy? What about trapfinding (barbarians get that too, and using survival to boot)?

*shrug* I think the barbarian is justified in being slightly higher in tier than the fighter and paladin.

lol, I don't even particularly like the barbarian, I just think he's a little better off, class feature-wise.

I think it makes plenty of sense for barbarian to be Tier 4 and for Fighter and Paladin to be Tier 5.

edit: (Seriously, there isn't a whole lot of difference between the two tiers, IMO, and we're really just splitting hairs.)

[lans]

So your good for 1 fight a day, I'll assume extra rages for your 3rd level feat.
So +6 from rage, +2 from orc paragon. You have +4 to hit and +6 to damage. My fighter 1/orcparagon 3 takes reckless offense, power attack, cleave. Then I sell my soul for another two feats because fighters can do that, unlike barbarians. I Pick up weapon focus and weapon spec. That leaves your build with +3 on damage, +3 on trips,  versus cleave and power attack.

The orc paragon class isn't necessary, and for 2 fewer strength (all the benefit I was taking from orc paragon) you still have a whopping 34 Strength for, not one, but two encounters per day. Maybe four if you take Extra Rage (+2 rages) and convince your cleric/wizard-casting friend that it's a good idea to buff you. If not, you're still sitting at a 30 Strength four times per day. That's four fights, not one.

30 Strength is a +10 modifier, which is a +10 bonus to attack and a +15 bonus to damage if you wield a two-handed weapon.

Plus, you look good in skulls and a loincloth.

Twenty eight. You have a strength of 28. 18+4 orc+4 rage+2 reckless rage. You went from 32 to 36 after adding orc paragon, you should have went from 32 to 34

[dither]

Twenty eight. You have a strength of 28. 18+4 orc+4 rage+2 reckless rage. You went from 32 to 36 after adding orc paragon, you should have went from 32 to 34

18 base +4 orc +4 rage +2 reckless ... and the others were +2 paragon +4 bull's strength ... you're right.

Okay, so you've got a 28 Strength which is worth a +9 attack and a +13 damage.

Maybe I'll take a 1-level fighter dip to pick up Power Attack. 

Just remember that all the power is coming from stacking the orc racial bonus with rage here. Plus, you're usually (always?) Chaotic Evil.

Half-orc ('cause you DM doesn't believe in full-blooded orcs) takes you down to 26, and taking Power Attack instead of Reckless Rage takes you down to 24 when you rage, but now you can make up for the loss in damage by taking a minor hit to Strength. We've still got a +7 to attack and +10 to damage, and this is based on the virtue of our Strength bonus alone.

We haven't even added in base attack, any equipment bonus, or any spells that our friends may have put on us to buff us up. At the risk of repeating myself, a 24 Strength 3-4 times a day is still godly. How does the fighter or the paladin get that without dipping barbarian? (Well, it isn't even an option for the paladin without some weird shenanigans.)

off topic note: Holy crap. I wonder if you could use the Ordered Chaos abyssal heritor feat (Fiendish Codex I) to qualify for a multiclass barbarian/paladin?

[Soda]

I think the point is, rage is a legitimate class feature, that starts at first level and is easily available all encounter, every encounter.

The scaling bonus to hit and damage (always 1.5x), plus trips, bull rushes, grapples, and other strength checks and strength DC's. The scaling bonus to fort and will saves and bonus hp. All good things. On top that, there is a number of good rage feats. And the barbarian's great AFC's.

[dither]

I think the point is, rage is a legitimate class feature, that starts at first level and is easily available all encounter, every encounter.

The scaling bonus to hit and damage (always 1.5x), plus trips, bull rushes, grapples, and other strength checks and strength DC's. The scaling bonus to fort and will saves and bonus hp. All good things. On top that, there is a number of good rage feats. And the barbarian's great AFC's.

Thank you. 

edit: It's also easy to use without looking very far beyond the core rules. Good for n00bs, good for everyone.

[lans]

I think the point is, rage is a legitimate class feature, that starts at first level and is easily available all encounter, every encounter.

The scaling bonus to hit and damage (always 1.5x), plus trips, bull rushes, grapples, and other strength checks and strength DC's. The scaling bonus to fort and will saves and bonus hp. All good things. On top that, there is a number of good rage feats. And the barbarian's great AFC's.

Yes, but the tier system is supposed to take into effect at about 7th level if I recall. By that time the gap between fighter and barbarian has been reduced to whether the barbarian has pounce or whirlwind rage, or not.

[dither]

Yes, but the tier system is supposed to take into effect at about 7th level if I recall. By that time the gap between fighter and barbarian has been reduced to whether the barbarian has pounce or whirlwind rage, or not.

Do you have a quote? I can't find that in the OP?

I thought the tiers were supposed to be generally applicable across all levels while assuming a moderate amount of optimization.

[juton]

Yes, but the tier system is supposed to take into effect at about 7th level if I recall. By that time the gap between fighter and barbarian has been reduced to whether the barbarian has pounce or whirlwind rage, or not.

Do you have a quote? I can't find that in the OP?

I thought the tiers were supposed to be generally applicable across all levels while assuming a moderate amount of optimization.

JaronK talked about this here. Basically the Tiers are most accurate at levels 6-15. Some classes are that extra bit stronger because they come so front loaded (The initiators from ToB spring to mind).

That said I think things fall into their Tier around level 3-4, but the power gap between Tiers is very small at that point, it gets wider as characters go up in levels.

[JaronK]

The Tier system is across all levels.  It emphasizes levels 6-15, as those levels are most commonly played (and most classes are stable during that time, which is to say they have their signature abilities and behave in a relatively stable manner), but it includes 1-5 as the second most emphasized area, using 16-20 as the least important (since the fewest number of people play then).

Wizards are Tier 1 as much for their ability to cast Alter Self, Ghoul Glyph and Glitterdust at level 3 and Shrink Item and Explosive Runes at 5 as they are for being able to Polymorph and Planar Bind at higher levels.

JaronK

[Samb]

I propose wilder for tier 2.  Their main weakness being lack of powers (15 in 20 levels without extra EKs) can be made up for by research or by the alter reality power chains, they also manifest at higher ML than a psion of the same level.  With schism or santified mind PrC they don't worry about being dazed from enervation either (5-30% chance depending on wild surge level).  Capable of going gish with simple weapons thanks to 3/4 BAB or utility depending on power selection.

When compared to psywar, they have less feats and less powers but more high level powers (one that can imitate any 8th level power) and when metamorphosis is in effect can melee just as well.

[lans]

I'll second wilder for tier 2. Astral constructs are awesome with it.

[VennDygrem]

Has anyone ever come to a consensus on the tier for Wu Jen? I did a general search but found that the opinion widely varies, with some thinking it's powerful enough to be tier 2 due to 9th level spells, a decent spell list, and a couple of decent class features, while others feel that since its spell list is highly restricted with no access to new spells post-CAr, it's weak enough to be tier 4 or even 5.

I know it's not on anyone's list of priorities, but having looked at the class and taken in the general comments I've seen, I propose that it be placed in Tier 3, or 4 if people feel it's still not versatile enough; It has a fairly good list of spells, free metamagic effects on certain spells it can cast, and let us not forget Jean Grey, the MotUH build using Wu Jen as a base.

Of course, it can't research spells from spellbooks belonging to non-Wu Jen, according to the spellbook entry, which means that even if you find a wizard's spellbook with a spell on your spell list, RAW, you can't copy it over to your own book; unless your DM likes things to be less than complicated. Since Wu Jen are fairly uncommon, even according to fluff and especially among actual players, finding a Wu Jen spellbook is probably even rarer an occurrence than finding a magic artifact. 

The problem is, no one really plays them, given the chance to play a wizard or other, more versatile, spellcasters, so there's not enough experience to tell what tier they can easily compete in. So, has anyone ever come to a consensus?

[lans]

Looking quickly their spell list
1 sleep
2 alterself, invisiblility
3 stinking cloud, magic circle
4 polymorph, animate dead
5 dominate person, teleport
6 spirit binding
7 limited wish, teleport greater
8PaO, mind blank
9 Power word kill, shape change, wish time stop, gate, summon monster 9

I would wizard kicks its ass up and down the street, but still tier 1.

[Negative Zero]

Giant Size and Body Outside Body are both very, very impressive spells that only Wu Jen get.

[lans]

Did the spell compendium do anything with their spell list?

[BowenSilverclaw]

Did the spell compendium do anything with their spell list?

SC only added stuff to the Core (Prestige) Classes unfortunately.

[ninjarabbit]

Wu Jen is a Tier 2 class. It doesn't break the game like a Tier 1 class but it does have a nice spell list. The Tier 3 spellcasters have much more limited spellcasting.