The end of all "AntiMage" threads

[Senevri]

not that worried 'bout divinations.

.
Still, having a friendly diplomancer convince the target's god not to give any early hints might be a good idea.

an Antimagic Ray wouldn't activate the wizard's magic hat.

Frankly, though, determining the efficiency of various divination effects is really really annoying. :/
Actual player wizards are usually embarrasingly easy to kill, though  - lure them into a genesis'd demiplane with a single astral link, then block that link and they're already in deep, deep trouble. A theoretical paranoid wizard who really doesn't want to risk dying is really very tricky.

[KellKheraptis]

not that worried 'bout divinations.

.
Still, having a friendly diplomancer convince the target's god not to give any early hints might be a good idea.

an Antimagic Ray wouldn't activate the wizard's magic hat.

Frankly, though, determining the efficiency of various divination effects is really really annoying. :/
Actual player wizards are usually embarrasingly easy to kill, though  - lure them into a genesis'd demiplane with a single astral link, then block that link and they're already in deep, deep trouble. A theoretical paranoid wizard who really doesn't want to risk dying is really very tricky.

An Antimagic Ray will bounce harmlessly back at you

[Senevri]

Right. Spell Turning. Reasonable, even.

[SorO_Lost]

Foresight:  "Hey wizard, you're about to get stuck with an arrow.  Some dude already fired it and impact is imminent."

I'm sorry, all I heard was "The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. therefor Powerful Build makes me large, it stacks with Monkey Grip". Have you read the rules following foresight where the mechanical bonus of the spell is the insight bonuses (an insight bonus improves performance of a given activity by granting the character an almost precognitive knowledge of what might occur) and that you are no longer flat-footed? There is no exact warning of the type of attack and whom does it from where nor does it grant a surprise round nor auto winning initiative nor anything else I can say you assume it does.

***

Contingent Teleport goes off, action is used on emulating Eidetic Lock, so the wizard never forgets the puny mortals who thought they could trap him. 

*points*

Also glad you linked to the thread. Plainly I see in Juton & PhaedrusXY's posts the only contingency is to shift back when they become unable to act. Any comments of other contingency, such as loved comments like contingency vs AMF or some one getting close or a spell trigger by free action speech which happen virtually every thread. ... Anyone going to jump in and change unable to act to unable to cast spells to prevent such a cheap tactic as tossing a rock some where near the target before falling onto them in a battle jump or less useful roof-jumper now? Please.

COPint out to say you had the right contingincy? I used COP and dialed up Pelor and my question "Can you block Wizard Kell's future foresight based on forced answers from what may be you're hated enemy Vecna?" and I got a "yes" back.

***

It's really Foresight + Celerity, even though most Wizards can win initiative most times they are loathe to roll it. Basically we have to find a way to make a Wizard act on his initiative order, there are high Initiative builds out there but none of them can beat Celerity. You could Celerity their Celerity however, as it takes an immediate action and you only get one of those a round (excepting the exceptions of course).

Belt of Battle; see every wizard vs X thread I have ever posted on for rules quotes and lack of real arguments against it. Like here and this:

Anything to add to that outside of personal opinion like a rules quote unlike every other time some one has arguing against this?

Gone ignored by PhaedrusXY this time around even though I went out of my way and called him out to prove otherwise (pretty sure I didn't skim past his response in the last 4 pages at least)

***

BTW, what is the big deal with the admantine cone anyway?
Someone mentioned Battle Jump before. Heres a little math since I'm bored. 7 (greatsword's 2d6 avg) + 13 (only 28 str without the +6 enhancer) + 40 (PA 20) * 2 (battle jump) - 20 (hardness) * 4 (attacks per charge via bab and pounce) = 400 for an unoptimized damage amount in an AMF. Guess how much HP a foot of adamantine has? Yeah, 400. Guess the hat trick falls on it's face vs PC meleers.

Picture this. Wizard's dire turtle surprise round is bypassed for whatever reasons, like hiding. The attacker's belt counters Celerity and antimagic's the wizard which prompts the cone to fall. Then he burns a move action jumping over and breaking the cone apart. It's still the attacker's turn and he still has nonbelt granted full-round action and the cone isn't there blocking AMF.

The saddest part is the above isn't even ToB exclusive. As if to add insult to injury the retarded Fighter can pull it off, no flashy maneuvers needed unless you want overkill.

[Hijax]

The attacker's belt counters Celerity

no it doesn't. its a swift action to activate, those can only be taken on your turn.

also, on your issue with contingencies: they have more than one thanks to craft contingency spell.

Though, maybe an Arcane Archer could pull this off in core only... when the wizard lacks both celerity and more than one contingency.

EDIT: i'm bored, so i'll punch some holes in your COP argument.

Basically, and please correct me if i'm wrong, your argument goes like this:
COP-tech is dependent on the deity answering the questions.
you then list a multitude of reasons why the deity would refrain from answering. Actually, pretty good reason.

however: in the COP table, the columns say:
true answer, dont know, lie, random answer.
and then in the notes:

You get an true, one-word answer.

Nowhere does it state that the deity has the option of turning the casters question down(though maybe this is what is covered in the random roll. anyways), or that it gets a save, or ANYTHING. it just says: you get a true, one-word answer.

[jseah]

Perhaps we are approaching this the wrong way around?

A look at the one of the crazy TO threads on the WotC forums about killing gods could be a good way.  

Say, if we had an infinite action loop.  An arbitrarily large number of linked Synchronicities could do it.  (say, Synchronicity + link power + Font of Power, which doesn't require a full-manifester progression)
Since the synchronicities can be taken at any time, they can be used to trump Celerity, and virtually any effect.  (including but not limited to the AMF hat)

Buy a Contact Other Plane to ask how many you need and get two orders of magnitude more.  

Contingent Teleport doesn't work since you have more than enough actions to track the wizard down again, in the space of immediate actions.  

Could someone find a way to make this work without the use of a manifesting class?  Psychic Chirugery + some recharge mechanism could do it I think. 

[Havok4]

But this just brings us back to the issue of using casters to defeat casters (of manifesters in this case). There is no real way of getting that infinite action loop without manifesting or abuse of the magic item rules.

[Hijax]

How about this: maxxing arrow range fully out(this can get huge). your cohort has maximized arrow damage instead(but he still has Arcane archer with AMF).

You ready an action to fire if the mage pops celerity. your cohort fires, mage pops celerity. before celerity, however, your arrow is fired and makes AMF go boom on him.
Of course, he just uses invoke magic for this.

BUT your diplomacied/charmed/whatever buddy happens to have a readied action to go off whenever any spell that is not celerity is cast by the mage. he uses his celerity to cast, say, teleport, but just gets an arrow up his arse. and water lava contact poison acid last three.

[PhaedrusXY]

Yeah, using multiple readied actions is the way to beat the wizard, I think. So one arcane archer with Body Outside of Body or something could do it. Or three guys with custom antimagic field arrows (or other items, if they can get close enough to the wizard to activate them).

[Tonymitsu]

Foresight:  "Hey wizard, you're about to get stuck with an arrow.  Some dude already fired it and impact is imminent."

I'm sorry, all I heard was "The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. therefor Powerful Build makes me large, it stacks with Monkey Grip". Have you read the rules following foresight where the mechanical bonus of the spell is the insight bonuses (an insight bonus improves performance of a given activity by granting the character an almost precognitive knowledge of what might occur) and that you are no longer flat-footed? There is no exact warning of the type of attack and whom does it from where nor does it grant a surprise round nor auto winning initiative nor anything else I can say you assume it does.

My bad.

I do tend to shout pretty loudly when I invoke verbal components, and my Draconic is a little shaky at times.  I guess it probably sounded like "Monkey grip" but what I was actually saying was "Celerity + Time Stop".

Belt of Battle

<insert epic facepalm ASCII art>


Let's assume I believe your interpretation that let's a swift action somehow cancel out an immediate provided it is your initiative to act. (do you have a rules quote for that?)
When are you activating this Belt of Battle?


If you jump the wizard, you create a surprise round.

You don't have a swift action during your surprise round, only a standard.  And you're probably using this to take your readied action to attack.


Or are you going to walk out in front of him and initiate combat and hope he's generous enough not to use Moment of Prescience so you can have the first attack?

[Hijax]

Yeah, using multiple readied actions is the way to beat the wizard, I think. So one arcane archer with Body Outside of Body or something could do it. Or three guys with custom antimagic field arrows (or other items, if they can get close enough to the wizard to activate them).

even though there still is the issue with this requiring either three guys versus one, or body outside body(AkA high level spellcasting).

[Havok4]

even though there still is the issue with this requiring either three guys versus one, or body outside body(AkA high level spellcasting).

Or the pherenic template for fusion.

[lans]

Vecna blooded chageling Monk1/Totemist2(+?)/Occultslayer2/Barb1/Conjurer1/Warshaper3/FactotumX
Feats> Mageslayer, Sun School(Monk exclusive feat from Complete Warrior sucks balls for a straight monk, Totemists, Conjurer, and Sword Sage make it use able) , Intimidating Rage, Instantaneous Rage, Imperious Command. What ever is left should be extra inspiration points feat.

Needs to be able to do enough damage on a hit to disrupt a spell reliably.

I think  is  a decent way to start in an abstract.
Monk is for the flurry which is for Sun School.
Totemist is for a move action teleport at will.
Occult slayer does more damage on readied actions to disrupt a spell.
Warshaper is to make the wizard think a 5' step is safe.
Conjurer is to get and immediate action teleport.
Barb is for the 3 feats that make a one step worse than shaken rage instantaneously.

So ready an action to disrupt the next spell the target casts, and ready as many actions as you can for subsequent spell casting, move action DD next to the wizard, his attempts at Celerity should be disrupted by the readied action. Then when the wizards  turn starts he takes a step back, but is still threatened due to reach, so he attempts to quicken Teleport, which is hopefully countered by the instantaneous intimidate or an extra readied action from Factotum, and then the wizard goes to celerity which gets stopped by the conjurer variant immediate action teleport+sun school.

Contingency teleport or something of the like is the only thing that this doesn't really have an answer for. Unless contingent spells can be interrupted by bashing.

I am assuming that the only thing that prevents multiple readied actions is the lack of multiple standard actions.

[PhaedrusXY]

That looks pretty good lans. I made a similar build that relied on Sun School, Occult Slayer, and readied dimension door actions quite some time ago, but that was long before the factotum existed. I don't think it was possible to have multiple readied actions back then, and that surely amps up the effectiveness quite a bit. You're going to need some kind of Blindsight or something similar, to counter simple things like Mirror Image and Invisibility, but that's certainly attainable. 

[snakeman830]

That looks pretty good lans. I made a similar build that relied on Sun School, Occult Slayer, and readied dimension door actions quite some time ago, but that was long before the factotum existed. I don't think it was possible to have multiple readied actions back then, and that surely amps up the effectiveness quite a bit. You're going to need some kind of Blindsight or something similar, to counter simple things like Mirror Image and Invisibility, but that's certainly attainable. 

This sounds like a good time to use a Gem of True Seeing.  If an encounter requires you to burn through all 30 minutes, I don't know how to help you.  On the upside, the wizard is probably out of spells.

[PhaedrusXY]

That looks pretty good lans. I made a similar build that relied on Sun School, Occult Slayer, and readied dimension door actions quite some time ago, but that was long before the factotum existed. I don't think it was possible to have multiple readied actions back then, and that surely amps up the effectiveness quite a bit. You're going to need some kind of Blindsight or something similar, to counter simple things like Mirror Image and Invisibility, but that's certainly attainable.  

This sounds like a good time to use a Gem of True Seeing.  If an encounter requires you to burn through all 30 minutes, I don't know how to help you.  On the upside, the wizard is probably out of spells.

The bad thing about the gem is that it takes an action to activate it. If you're fighting high level casters, that's enough time for them to kill your whole party.

Hmm... if you're taking the whole Mage Slayer feat tree, doesn't one of them let you ignore stuff like this, though?

[juton]

Their is a Mage Slayer feat that lets you dispel any illusions a Wizard has on their person, like blur or mirror image I think. It requires a successful hit but I don't think it specifies melee, maybe you could use an AoE spell to set it off?

[Agita]

Their is a Mage Slayer feat that lets you dispel any illusions a Wizard has on their person, like blur or mirror image I think. It requires a successful hit but I don't think it specifies melee, maybe you could use an AoE spell to set it off?

So in order to lower his effective 90+% miss chance, you need to hit him in the first place? I dunno...

[lans]

Blind sense is 3ish feats, Shape Soulmeld:Shedu Crown, Open Least Chakra, and the one that makes telepathy blind sense. Which likely means flaws, selling ones immortal soul, and being devoted to an elder evil.  Why does competence in so many non-casters require assistance from beings of pure Evil?

I'm thinking an intelligent item that can cast dimensional anchor or the like.

[LargePrime]

That looks pretty good lans. I made a similar build that relied on Sun School, Occult Slayer, and readied dimension door actions quite some time ago, but that was long before the factotum existed. I don't think it was possible to have multiple readied actions back then, and that surely amps up the effectiveness quite a bit. You're going to need some kind of Blindsight or something similar, to counter simple things like Mirror Image and Invisibility, but that's certainly attainable. 

This sounds like a good time to use a Gem of True Seeing.  If an encounter requires you to burn through all 30 minutes, I don't know how to help you.  On the upside, the wizard is probably out of spells.

Would permanent arcane sight work?