Author Topic: The end of all "AntiMage" threads  (Read 83604 times)

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #60 on: March 12, 2010, 12:23:32 AM »
Your argument is as follows:

"contact other plane does not work the way the DnD 3.5 PHB says it does"

The game you are playing is obviously not DnD 3.5.  Please direct your responses to the appropriate forum for whatever game system you are using.
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bearsarebrown

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #61 on: March 12, 2010, 12:47:18 AM »
TML is kind of being a jerk but he's right. Theoretical discussions like this don't take DM fiat into effect. If they did then the conversations would be impossible.

Havok4

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #62 on: March 12, 2010, 01:12:05 AM »
TML is kind of being a jerk but he's right. Theoretical discussions like this don't take DM fiat into effect. If they did then the conversations would be impossible.
Especially given the vast differences between what various DMs consider acceptable and the degree to which they house rule things to make it fit their idea of what the game should be. I have heard stories on these boards of a DM who have let a player play Pun-Pun and then there are people like kevin video's DMs.

JaronK

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #63 on: March 12, 2010, 05:35:19 AM »
Since the caster's actions are so powerful, challenging them means either denying them actions or making them chose the wrong actions.  The easiest way to do this is to make for a confusing battlefield.  Consider using illusions to create fake opponents, as well as having opponents come in waves so the casters blow their best abilities before the main force arrives.  And you should be able to use antidivination abilities to an extend (not every caster can cast Contact Other Plane).  Heck, one of our DMs used ambushing lizards that wore lead lined cloaks designed much like gilly suits.  They'd wait in ambush, then sick war beasts at the party.  As the party dealt with that, they'd suddenly pop up and open fire, then retreat into caves where most divinations can't penetrate.

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #64 on: March 12, 2010, 06:07:33 AM »
I'm surprised nobody noticed them.  The ACP on those armors should be what, -8 or so?
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Senevri

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #65 on: March 12, 2010, 06:16:28 AM »
Hm. Hidden Talent Warblade 4/Slayer 6/Eternal Blade 10.

Immediate Action full round. Immune to divinations. 17th level initiator.
Will have trouble getting to the same playing ground as wizard, but once there, can at least get an opportunity to try to hit them. AMF helps.
And when an initiator hits, the target knows they've been hit.

Let's see; if a contingency doesn't go off 'til we get an antimagic field going (after which a contingency cannot go off, ) we... win. The wizard will have max. HP around 160, once his gear goes off-line. That's nothing.

We cannot be spotted by divination, so we need good stats and max ranks on hide, move silently and balance, preferrably.

if there's a resilient sphere or somesuch effect online... hm. Tricky. there are ways around that, but most require supernatural or magic ability, meaning the wizard's contingencies are on-line.

A contingency might not react to an undivinable character, but there are other ways - make it react to changes in air pressure, for an example.

Brainpiercing

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #66 on: March 12, 2010, 06:58:43 AM »
You need to enter his square before switching on the AMF, or else his Iron-Wall hat will revert to full size once he gets hit with the AMF.

So... perhaps burrow up to him. Except... how do you find him?

KellKheraptis

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #67 on: March 12, 2010, 07:01:17 AM »
I'd thought of that as well Senevri, but the problem with that line of inquiry is that said divination isn't detecting you per se, but a threat to the wizard.  Even if you're in stealth mode, you still trigger spidey sense.  Also, bear in mind the worst of us are fond of that very sudden strike type ambush leaving an unpleasant surprise where we once stood as a contingency, such as a benign transposition with that invisible buffed to the 9's balor we planar bound last century :P  Warblade uberstrikes can usually down balors no problemo...however, when said balor has a 50% miss chance, a 60+ Str, and an AC around 50...might pose a problem :P

EDIT : And props to the gilly suit comment.  NCIS fan?

EDIT #2 : Also, doesn't Shadow Weave Magic prevent most AMF issues?  IIRC they draw on a different Weave, thus are not subject to the effects of the regular one.  FR specific, but as most of my games happen there, I'd think it to be relevant.

EDIT #3 : Also again, what are your plans for wizards with obscene caster levels (like the new TBS I just posted) who can uncap shapechange and turn into a Phane or other being capable of fucking with the time stream at will?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 07:06:30 AM by KellKheraptis »
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JaronK

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #68 on: March 12, 2010, 07:04:07 AM »
I'm surprised nobody noticed them.  The ACP on those armors should be what, -8 or so?

They're lead lined gilly suits, so it counts as an ACP of -10 generally, but when hiding and not moving the ACP does not apply to hide checks, and they got a +4 circumstance bonus.  Of course, that's the GM's ruling, but it does make plenty of sense.

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Brainpiercing

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #69 on: March 12, 2010, 07:17:25 AM »
I'm going to have to chime in to the COP discussion, too:

It IS a completely ROTTEN spell. I mean... look:

Question 1: Am I going to be attacked today.
Answer (rolled for true): Yes
Question 2: Am I going to be injured?
Answer(again rolled for true): Umm..... you WILL if I say so. Even if you stay in bed all day.
Question3: Am I going to die?
Answer (true again): You really want to push me, don't you? YES, you're going to die, because I say so. No, actually, because you asked!
(Question4: Is my contingency against death going to save me?
Answer: Uh.... here's your new character. He's called BARRY BARBARIAN.)

What happens later that day is that said wizard is attacked by rat, bitten by a flea, and then drops dead at 11:59pm from a heart attack because the answer had to be true. And guess what, just at that moment his party mate Fred Warblade twitches in his sleep and triggers his Antimagic torc. What did we win, here?

Basically COP puts a party, or at least a character, knee deep in railroad muck, because once answered those questions have to come true, even if the character does something completely different than what he was supposed to do.

So basically COP isn't the "Give me your notes" thing, it's "Put me on a rail, with really windy tracks, but really really fixed stops."

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #70 on: March 12, 2010, 07:20:17 AM »
You're asking the questions wrong.
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Brainpiercing

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #71 on: March 12, 2010, 07:38:13 AM »
You're asking the questions wrong.

Obviously I'm being willfully obtuse... :D

KellKheraptis

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #72 on: March 12, 2010, 08:00:28 AM »
Someone is forgetting their temporal theory I see.  Those answers only apply if the course remains as it is.  Alterations to the course both remove the danger (i.e. determine the asshat warblade whose steel weapon will bounce off my ironguard buttcheeks anyway and incinerate him and his entire family, and the city he lives in just to be sure) and change the course, so to speak.  COP merely tells what will happen should nothing change, and thus is the reasoning behind always being prepared, and as such, being GOD.  Reality bows to you, not the other way around, as does time, as does matter.  And for the intrepid young melee warriors of renowned prowess, that last category includes you ;)
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Hijax

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #73 on: March 12, 2010, 09:09:15 AM »
Someone is forgetting their temporal theory I see.  Those answers only apply if the course remains as it is.  Alterations to the course both remove the danger (i.e. determine the asshat warblade whose steel weapon will bounce off my ironguard buttcheeks anyway and incinerate him and his entire family, and the city he lives in just to be sure) and change the course, so to speak.  COP merely tells what will happen should nothing change, and thus is the reasoning behind always being prepared, and as such, being GOD.  Reality bows to you, not the other way around, as does time, as does matter.  And for the intrepid young melee warriors of renowned prowess, that last category includes you ;)

basically, yeah.

COP predicts what would have happened if the wizard didn't know that he would get attacked. since he knows, he can take countermeasures.
this is why this spell is stupid.
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Brainpiercing

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #74 on: March 12, 2010, 09:57:12 AM »
WELL, technically COP doesn't even specify that it can predict the future. It's just that some gods know what will happen.

HOWEVER, I disagree on changing the future theory: IF you can predict what will happen, then it has to happen. If everything is open then you obviously can't predict what will happen.

Upon rereading, I also noticed some serious setbacks to invulnerability via COP: The "Maybe" of doom! Since you can't prepare for everything, and your DM can just answer "maybe" to every question this leaves you just as prepared as previously. And it gets worse:
Quote from: SRD
On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked by an act of certain deities or forces.
That's like the counter-COP-out.

All things considered perhaps it's best to ask concrete questions about present happenings, in order use it only as a better form of Scrying, rather than for predicting the fututre, for example: Is my arch-enemy, Wally Warblade, plotting to destroy me? Is he planning to attack me today? Are there Beholders in Dungeon X? Do legends exist about the Mindboggling Artifact of Doom? Etc.

So, in the end, the Dweomercheater of Mystra wins again, because he's always prepared for everything. :)

juton

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #75 on: March 12, 2010, 11:14:59 AM »
Quote from: SRD
On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked by an act of certain deities or forces.
That's like the counter-COP-out.

That's good to remember. I guess the pertinent question is which god/force do you have to bribe so that COP-out doesn't work? Is it just the god of magic or fate, or would you have to sway others?

Havok4

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #76 on: March 12, 2010, 11:39:49 AM »

All things considered perhaps it's best to ask concrete questions about present happenings, in order use it only as a better form of Scrying, rather than for predicting the fututre

Even limiting yourself to that sort of use of the spell is still broken as it keeps all intrigue, mystery and surprises out of the campaign by using only a moderate amount downtime. My DM had to ask me to stop using divination spells on the plot with my wizard because it would really mess up what he had planned for our future adventures. And all I asked were things like, which way is the bad guy's lair and how far away is it.

Brainpiercing

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #77 on: March 12, 2010, 12:05:34 PM »

All things considered perhaps it's best to ask concrete questions about present happenings, in order use it only as a better form of Scrying, rather than for predicting the fututre

Even limiting yourself to that sort of use of the spell is still broken as it keeps all intrigue, mystery and surprises out of the campaign by using only a moderate amount downtime. My DM had to ask me to stop using divination spells on the plot with my wizard because it would really mess up what he had planned for our future adventures. And all I asked were things like, which way is the bad guy's lair and how far away is it.

Normally I would say this is a sign of self-centered GMing, i.e. the GM sees himself as the grand presenter of the plot he has invented, and the players get to beat down the bad guys at the appointed places. Now IF he were to think about less plot, more scenario, and let the PCs do the plot moves, that would not make such a request necessary.

I would say after thinking about it a bit, COP is a good spell for a PC centered campaign.

Hijax

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #78 on: March 12, 2010, 12:25:17 PM »
DiplomacyThe Lady of Pain is the only thing greater than Pun-Pun

fixed that.

Diplomacy fails compared with pun-pun. why? Pun-Pun can use diplomacy too, and has a higher mod that any other possible build, and automatically rolls 20.
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Havok4

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #79 on: March 12, 2010, 01:30:22 PM »


Normally I would say this is a sign of self-centered GMing, i.e. the GM sees himself as the grand presenter of the plot he has invented, and the players get to beat down the bad guys at the appointed places.

I think it has more to do with the next BBEG being to powerful for us at level 11, and our game structure is more focused on small individual adventures with the overall plot only coming into it very rarely. So we might be level 15 before the main plot would comes into our game again.