Brilliant Gameologists Forum
The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : PlzBreakMyCampaign March 09, 2010, 08:31:00 PM
-
Yes this qualifies as one, meaning I fail (like I just did at The Game).
But no, this isn't the mild retardation of GitP spam threads. I'm curious what the board thinks would be required mechanically for such a thing to work in DnD. Don't point me to the homebrew section; I need mechanics balance.
The point of this thread is to create a homebrewed antimage class that could take on all but a TO full caster.
I have a good guess what would be required: Unaffected/Insta-Dispel to most of caster's tricks (meaning spells). The problem is that many spells (conjuration, I'm looking at you) do not do anything to the enemy but none the less are 'win' buttons.
The mechanics of non-casting generally satisfy people (attacks, movement, AoO, AC, etc) when spells are not involved, so by no means am I asking for invulnerability. I interested to see how far homebrew would need to go to create a character that would need a whole party of wizards to kill it, but would be quite vulnerable to most gishes and any lockdown fighter or Barbarian charger.
Yes I have a few homebrew ideas of my own, but I need not share since this isn't the homebrew section (which I have gone through completely with nothing like this coming close to succeeding). Boards?
Further Explanation for those who had trouble understanding the above:[spoiler]
there ARE ways to beat COP, mainly by seeing to it that it isn't cast.
Without banning/mega-nerfing [x powerful spell] I'd say preventing it from being cast is only of the few or only ways to make it fair for a non-caster. Right?
Literally, there is no "I might win" for Mr. Beatstick and his buddies Melee McFighterblade and Blasty McNukebig.
Agreed. I'm only interested in drawing/not dying to reasonable, not too TO wizard power (genesis is fine but ice clones of epic gods isn't)
DnD is way too fargone to have an antimage actually hunt wizards. I'll settle for stopping him/allies from being demolished like everything else. I invited custom abilities into the scope to see what was the minimal amount of extra 'umph' needed to matter.
I'd like us to think outside the box and see what sort of abilities would be needed to make this not the case.
So, I'm failing to see how the wizard wins in any conventional sense.
Ug. I'm not interested. Follow the other similar lovely threads on that. I want this to be the end of them by saying: 'we made up this ability/abilities that, though they don't exist in 3.5, would allow a not full caster to atleast stand up to a full-caster. It's in the min/max forum because I want to know how far we have to go to get to that balancing point.
I'm interested in non-TO RAW, but with whatever custom abilities are deemed necessary by the boards.
I hoping more of a "how creative to we have to homebrew abilities to not die a horrible Wizard-filled death?" thread...
[/spoiler]
Those who have done a good job with homebrew abilities to add to an antimage class:[spoiler]Ride the Tide of Time [Spelltouched]
Do spelltouched feats even have flavor?
Prerequisite: Exposure to a wizard casting time stop or celerity like effects.
Benefit: Once per encounter when a magical effect that grants extra actions is cast that doesn't affect you, you immediately gain an the same action granted by the effect the spell or effect grants. You cannot take more than a full-round action this way. If the spell is Time Stop your full-round action takes place within the suspended time after the spell is cast, thus allowing you to effect the caster and after the full-round action you slip back into normal time. This feat cannot be triggered by nonmagical effects that grant additional actions such as a Sharn's multiple heads or spells that do not directly grant additional actions such as Schism.
Q: Does Ride the Tide of Time work if a Swiftblade casts Haste to gain extra actions?
A: No. Haste is an Ex effect when cast by a swiftblade thus nonmagical. Haste cast by others would grant an attack action allowing you to make a single attack that you could normally use within a full-attack action at the time of casting though.
How 'Bout this for sum hulk-style homebrew feats:
Limitless Rage[general]:
Prerequisites: The ability to rage or a similar class feature
Effect: whenever you are the target of any effect(including attacks) that would cause damage to you, kill you, or otherwise directly harm you, you enter a rage. if you are already raging, you effectively rage again, doubling the effects of the rage. There is no limit to the total amount of rages you can have stacked using this feat. All the rages' durations are renewed when you enter a new one. This effect takes place whether or not you succeed on your saving throw.
Numb Anger[general]
Prerequisites: The ability to rage or a similar class feature, Limitless Anger
Effect: while raging, the amount of negative hit point you need to die is increased by 10 for each rage you have going. for example, if you are raging 4 times, you die at -50.
Voluntary Berserk[general]
Prerequisites: The ability to rage or a similar class feature, Limitless Anger
effect: you can use up normal uses of rage per day to enter a stacked rage as per limited anger. You do not need to take damage to enter stacked rages. For example, a barbarian with this feat could use up two of his rages/day to enter a double rage, as per Limitless rage.
Proportional Provocation[general]
Prerequisites: The ability to rage or a similar class feature, Limitless Anger
Effect: You enter an extra rage for each 20 points of damage you would take, instead of just one as per Limitless Anger. If it is a death effect, treat it as dealing as much damage as you have maximum hitpoints.
[/spoiler]
-
Mithral Golem is a bit tough, but I'm confident that enough Telekinesis will kill it.
-
one of the gaint gollems from epic level handbook might work. they have a 100ft radius AMF on them at all times.
-
one of the gaint gollems from epic level handbook might work. they have a 100ft radius AMF on them at all times.
Enough giant boulders + shrink item should handle that
-
one of the gaint gollems from epic level handbook might work. they have a 100ft radius AMF on them at all times.
Enough giant boulders + shrink item should handle that
My thoughts exactly. AMFs are nasty, but I'm pretty more would be needed. The Mithral Golem's magic immunity = getting warmer
-
one of the gaint gollems from epic level handbook might work. they have a 100ft radius AMF on them at all times.
Enough giant boulders + shrink item should handle that
My thoughts exactly. AMFs are nasty, but I'm pretty more would be needed. The Mithral Golem's magic immunity = getting warmer
The Colossi are immune to magic, too.
-
4th edition? :D
In all seriousness I'm not sure there is anything that a melee oriented character could beat that a wizard couldn't especially since as a last resort a wizard could use his familiar as a melee combatant.
-
4th edition? :D
we have a winner! :lol
-
Perhaps it could be based around making mages lose control of their spells - since using spellcasters optimally requires careful preparation (and sometimes the application of heavy focused damage), a class that could take control of spells cast by a nearby mage, or simply make their spells fire off randomly, could screw up a prepared caster. They would also need a good deal of anti-detection abilities, to prevent scry & die and/or Foresight abuse. A third necessity would be the ability to identify all active spells (i.e. simulacrums, astral projections, summons) so that the caster can't lure them out with disposable minions and then pound them from afar once they're revealed.
Since the primary feature is controlling enemy spells, gishes would have less difficulty, and pure combat classes would have an easy time.
-
a trallherd with DFA meta-breath abuse minions?
I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of my disposable minions are taking the hits on me while you take force damage every turn.
-
a trallherd with DFA meta-breath abuse minions?
I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of my disposable minions are taking the hits on me while you take force damage every turn.
I'm sorry, I can't hear you over my immunity to force damage
-
If you're going DFA, you need to just blanket every plane in fire. It's bound to help somehow.
-
Perhaps it could be based around making mages lose control of their spells - since using spellcasters optimally requires careful preparation (and sometimes the application of heavy focused damage), a class that could take control of spells cast by a nearby mage, or simply make their spells fire off randomly, could screw up a prepared caster. They would also need a good deal of anti-detection abilities, to prevent scry & die and/or Foresight abuse. A third necessity would be the ability to identify all active spells (i.e. simulacrums, astral projections, summons) so that the caster can't lure them out with disposable minions and then pound them from afar once they're revealed.
Since the primary feature is controlling enemy spells, gishes would have less difficulty, and pure combat classes would have an easy time.
Spellthief could be the answer to this. let's see...some way to boost sneak attack damage would be necessary, at least 18 levels of the class (or bloodlines etc) to be able to steal 9th level spells, and initiative and hide boosts.
edit: I guess if we're just looking to steal spells and thereby preventing casters from using them, master spellthief is all it needs.
-
This http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030418a (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030418a)
Void Presence + Empty Form = win
-
It isn't enough to walk around with an antimagic field up or to be immune to magic. Telekinesis and throwing things, polymorph, and summoning/gating can easily allow the mage to do the beatdown.
Now something that prevents the wizard from casting. (My logic is taken from Dr_Rocktopus and his War Weaver Handbook.)
A monster that readies actions against spells, attacking whenever a wizard tries to cast a spell if you do enough damage than the target won't make his concentration check of 10 + damage dealt.
Something that lowers the target skill check on concentration, similar to an aura of sadness
Something that doesn't allow a mage to cast a spell defensively (though defensive casting does not stop readied attacks)
Mage slayer line of feats
Something that teleports near a mage whenever he tries to cast a spell
-
Let's look at the resources available to a level 9 Wizard.
-Animate Dead. Clerics can do better, but a Wizard has this option. He can pay a Cleric to desecrate the area first or get desecrate on an item.
-Lesser Planar Binding: Sure, it only affects creatures of 6HD or less, but you can steal some of heaven or hell for long-term purposes.
-Contact Other Plane: A Wizard worth his INT casts this regularly. He knows what to prepare and how to survive.
-Teleport: Relocate quickly. Bring things back to base with multiple castings.
-Telekinesis: Throw things into other things. Grapple even incorporeal creatures!
-Shrink Item: Is that a miniature city you have in your Bag of Holding?
-Wall of Force: Unless you have some funky ability like the Void Incarnate or can teleport/etc. around the wall, you're stuck.
He probably also has enough expected wealth to blow some on a one-shot item of simulacrum. He only needs CL11 to bring a sim Solar and the default minimum CL for simulacrum is 13, able to cast L9 Cleric spells. It can heal itself with vigor, miracle, etc. It can gate in real Solars to serve you by proxy. So yeah, awesome.
The stakes become higher the higher your Wizard level. I'm still only dealing with core material.
-
Somebody who can threaten casters but die easily to a lockdown melee? That's pretty hard to imagine :P
To kill a caster:
1. Immune to divinations - maybe God-blooded of vecna
2. High SR. SR doesn't block everything, but it never hurts. Immunity to magic (aka golems) is even nicer.
3. Immunity to ability damage, fear, mind-control, the like. I'm thinking undead or construct by this point. But an insanely high SR also deals with most of this.
4. Permanent or easily raised protection from evil to deal with summoned creatures.
5. Can easily prevent teleportation. This one's tricky, and maybe impossible to pull off without spells.
6. High energy resistances.
7. Mobile - flying and freedom of action are probably the minimum here.
8. Has a means of dispelling magical buffs (Pierce magical concealment or warlock/DFA?)
9. Ideally, can stop spells while threatening (
10. Cannot be detected (Mundane hide + darkstalker, etc)
11. High saving throws
To die to a melee:
1. Low AC
2. Low HPs
3. Low strength score (to fail against trip, grapple, etc)
4. Few magic items
I think an undead or warforged swordsage with the right feats and 1-2 templates probably fits the bill best: lots of tricks against casters, but if built to fight casters, it won't have so many against direct melee damage.
-
The Mage Slayer line goes a long way.
-
It isn't enough to walk around with an antimagic field up or to be immune to magic. Telekinesis and throwing things, polymorph, and summoning/gating can easily allow the mage to do the beatdown.
Now something that prevents the wizard from casting. (My logic is taken from Dr_Rocktopus and his War Weaver Handbook.)
A monster that readies actions against spells, attacking whenever a wizard tries to cast a spell if you do enough damage than the target won't make his concentration check of 10 + damage dealt.
Something that lowers the target skill check on concentration, similar to an aura of sadness
Something that doesn't allow a mage to cast a spell defensively (though defensive casting does not stop readied attacks)
Mage slayer line of feats
Something that teleports near a mage whenever he tries to cast a spell
sadly, none of that stops swift action spells. so, if they have a quickened "fuck you" spell(if core only), or have something like greater mirror image ready, you are still kinda screwed.
-
Occult Slayer from... somewhere... it's on Crystal Keep... that makes Quickened Spells provoke and dismissing and some other things.
-
Encounter Level 9
3 six headed hydras and a level 5 wizard. (each of the 4 monsters is cr 5)
The party is attacking a major stronghold of an enemy mage. They bust down the door and stumble onto the room and find 3 hydras. They do not find the mage for he has cast invisibility before hand.
So the party tries to attack the hydras, and the hydras try to attack the party. All goes according to plan, until one of the party spellcasters tries to cast a spell. This is when the enemy mage attacks.
Instead of trying to attack the party directly the enemy mage is smart and uses battlefield control. He stays invisible until he is ready, he does not even attack when it is his turn (for if he does it too early the mages may do an immediate action to avoid his effect), instead he readies an action to cast the almighty dimension step.
When the party mage tries to cast a spell, the dimension step activates teleporting the hydras right next to the mage before he completes the spell.
Oh did I mention that the hydras have custom feats due to magical experimentation. They have Combat Reflexes (bonus), Mage Slayer, Blind Fight, Pierce Magical Concealment, and Pierce Magical Protection (in that order). Note that this is two feats too many, well in my mind what is good for the goose is good for the gaffer if your pcs play with flaws than monsters will also play with flaws. (houserule I know)
If the spell is not a swift action spell, than the mage promptly dies due to him now provoking an attack of opportunity and thus is attacked by at least 1 hydra six times. He doesn't get to cast defensively due to mage slayer, and he loses any miss chance buffs (he does not lose ac buffs for the hydra has to attack and not do an AoO for that).
If the spell is a swift action spell (and the enemy mage decided to unleash his readied action on a swift action spell) than the party mage has very limited options for if he does anything traditional then he generates an AoO and thus is dead. He can 5ft step but he is still in the range of the hydra (15ft range). He can try withdrawling but since the hydra has a range of 15ft his first square may be safe from an AoO but his second and third square are not and thus he is dead if he tries withdrawling. His only option is doing a swift action spell and hope that saves his butt.
After casting said spell the mage is still invisible since he didn't attack directly, so he can repeat this tactic for the next round, perform another spell, or run away.
-
sadly, none of that stops swift action spells. so, if they have a quickened "fuck you" spell(if core only), or have something like greater mirror image ready, you are still kinda screwed.
While AoO don't work on swift action spells, readied actions do work. You can ready an action to act for swift action spells. Your action goes off before the enemy complete the spell. If your action is an ranged attack/direct damage ability/or another spell (and not something like a teleport) then the mage doesn't get his Greater Mirror Image or F you spell for your attack prevented him from casting his spell due to the concentration check.
If your action was a teleport next to the enemy and then have him die due to AoO caused by casting the spell (and you probably have the mage slayer line of feats so he can't cast defensively) sorry but the swift action spell gets to be cast.
-
Proper paranoid Batman mages have contingencies for these exact tactics, and depending on the bastard level of the mage, suitably appropriate and insidious countermeasures. Personally I'm fond of taking that free 5' step after a free action to fall prone, with the contingency in effect being a spell giving earth glide (get creative...the easiest answer starts at 2nd level, scaling upwards to 9th). Once properly away from immediate danger, a strategic reposition can bring the enemy into focus to be burned to death. Also, see invisibility constantly from permanency isn't exactly unheard of by level 9, nor is a Ring of Spell-Battle.
-
Proper paranoid Batman mages have contingencies for these exact tactics, and depending on the bastard level of the mage, suitably appropriate and insidious countermeasures. Personally I'm fond of taking that free 5' step after a free action to fall prone, with the contingency in effect being a spell giving earth glide (get creative...the easiest answer starts at 2nd level, scaling upwards to 9th). Once properly away from immediate danger, a strategic reposition can bring the enemy into focus to be burned to death. Also, see invisibility constantly from permanency isn't exactly unheard of by level 9, nor is a Ring of Spell-Battle.
You can't take the spell contigency at level 9 without shenanigans
And many dms won't let you use items and other similar things that are not "integral" to your character to boost your caster level to qualify for feats, thus there is a good chance you don't have craft contingent spell.
What other ways of get contingencies are you thinking of?
Also relying on craft contingent spell is dangerous to your wealth by level due to things such as dispelling traps, wall of dispel magic, and enemy casters. You need to use your normal contingency (from the spell) to protect your more expensive contingencies.
--------
Now I do like your fall prone for earth glide, it is just flavorful and is a great mental image.
-
Oh instead of casting invisibility, a potion of invisibility would do the same effect but not be casting a spell and thus activate a ring of spell battle.
Or you can just use other means of remaining hidden (such as a good hide modifer) and not even rely on invisibility, and even if invisibility alerts the party spellcaster that there are mages about it does not tell them where they are.
-
Edit: Crap wrong thread...
-
Duh... the answer is obvious: The perfect anti-Wizard is called... A CLERIC....
Sorta....
well...
But factually, it's the Hagunemnon, from the ELH: You take the 100' EX AMF of the Colossus, then the Ex disintegrating touch of the Blackball, the Ex magic immunity from the Demilich, and the Ex Planar Travel effects also from the Blackball. You already have Regeneration 50, without a specification of what deals normal damage, so that non-magical telekinesed items will have a hard killing you. Now you just teleport next to the enemy mage, or on top of him, and wait until he fails a fort save.
Granted... Joe BSF might also feel that this isn't a fair fight, but.... you can't have everything, right?
-
Ok, if we enter epic monsters, i sorta think i'll say this: deities.
even noncaster deities are total badasses, with a ton of bonuses, SLAs and a lot of crap. but here's the real kicker: greater deities know ANYTHING that will happen related to their portfolio one week in advance. kord, the deity of battle, is f*cking damn sure to know that there will be a major battle between him and an obnoxious mortal spellcaster who couldn't bother to die. And the details. in short, he knows EVERYTHING you will do, he automatically wins initiative(or gets a surprise round. cant remember), so he can beat teh shit out of you before you can act, he knows which buffs you have up so he can surpass them.
Now, if you say deities are broken, the i'll say yeah. so is effing casting.
-
my sublime chord caster level abuse character has enough room for a level of nar demonbinder, and the extra +casting from ultimate magus can be reshuffled to that.
fuck you kord. enjoy a caster level 94 blasphemy.
-
my sublime chord caster level abuse character has enough room for a level of nar demonbinder, and the extra +casting from ultimate magus can be reshuffled to that.
fuck you kord. enjoy a caster level 94 blasphemy.
remember, spell immunity.
also, i wonder if it would be too much to repick his feats and SDA's. because DAMN he's badly built. if so, life and death: No save, just crydie with no way of protection.
-
my sublime chord caster level abuse character has enough room for a level of nar demonbinder, and the extra +casting from ultimate magus can be reshuffled to that.
fuck you kord. enjoy a caster level 94 blasphemy.
remember, spell immunity.
also, i wonder if it would be too much to repick his feats and SDA's. because DAMN he's badly built. if so, life and death: No save, just crydie with no way of protection.
don't make me find out a way to add a level of dweomerkeeper to kell's rewrite of my build. I will use an even higher CL supernatural blasphemy!
sadly, spell immunity only works on things that allow spell resistance.
otherwise, greater rod of quickening MDJ + blasphemy also works.
-
sadly, spell immunity only works on things that allow spell resistance.
otherwise, greater rod of quickening MDJ + blasphemy also works.
Not by RAW, though, IIRC...
-
sadly, spell immunity only works on things that allow spell resistance.
otherwise, greater rod of quickening MDJ + blasphemy also works.
Not by RAW, though, IIRC...
why is that?
-
Proper paranoid Batman mages have contingencies for these exact tactics, and depending on the bastard level of the mage, suitably appropriate and insidious countermeasures. Personally I'm fond of taking that free 5' step after a free action to fall prone, with the contingency in effect being a spell giving earth glide (get creative...the easiest answer starts at 2nd level, scaling upwards to 9th). Once properly away from immediate danger, a strategic reposition can bring the enemy into focus to be burned to death. Also, see invisibility constantly from permanency isn't exactly unheard of by level 9, nor is a Ring of Spell-Battle.
You can't take the spell contigency at level 9 without shenanigans
And many dms won't let you use items and other similar things that are not "integral" to your character to boost your caster level to qualify for feats, thus there is a good chance you don't have craft contingent spell.
What other ways of get contingencies are you thinking of?
Also relying on craft contingent spell is dangerous to your wealth by level due to things such as dispelling traps, wall of dispel magic, and enemy casters. You need to use your normal contingency (from the spell) to protect your more expensive contingencies.
--------
Now I do like your fall prone for earth glide, it is just flavorful and is a great mental image.
Imbue Gem from Magic of Faerun would be an excellent way around not getting Contingency spell.
-
Really, it all starts with becoming immune to divinations, especially Contact other Plane. Depending on how you interpret the rules, the god of X can see you doing X, any mortal magic you use to obscure yourself doesn't work against a god. Since contact other plane doesn't target you, but puts you in communication with someone who can scry you I don't know of any RAW defenses.
tl;dr, Ban Contact other Plane, and ban Craft Contingent spell while you're at it.
-
my sublime chord caster level abuse character has enough room for a level of nar demonbinder, and the extra +casting from ultimate magus can be reshuffled to that.
fuck you kord. enjoy a caster level 94 blasphemy.
remember, spell immunity.
also, i wonder if it would be too much to repick his feats and SDA's. because DAMN he's badly built. if so, life and death: No save, just crydie with no way of protection.
don't make me find out a way to add a level of dweomerkeeper to kell's rewrite of my build. I will use an even higher CL supernatural blasphemy!
sadly, spell immunity only works on things that allow spell resistance.
otherwise, greater rod of quickening MDJ + blasphemy also works.
well, its moot, because kord automatically wins initiative. i dont give shit about your über spell power, cause you wont get the opportunity to USE it.
-
Really, it all starts with becoming immune to divinations, especially Contact other Plane. Depending on how you interpret the rules, the god of X can see you doing X, any mortal magic you use to obscure yourself doesn't work against a god. Since contact other plane doesn't target you, but puts you in communication with someone who can scry you I don't know of any RAW defenses.
tl;dr, Ban Contact other Plane, and ban Craft Contingent spell while you're at it.
and rework deities.
seriosuly, we're working with a deity WITHOUT casting. consider one with.
-
My "Anti-caster Caster" is an Eldritch Theurge who puts AMFs on mages he hits with his Eldritch blast.
-
well, its moot, because kord automatically wins initiative. i dont give shit about your über spell power, cause you wont get the opportunity to USE it.
If only there were some sort of spell that lets you act without winning init. Some sort of magical ability to increase your celerity.
-
well, its moot, because kord automatically wins initiative. i dont give shit about your über spell power, cause you wont get the opportunity to USE it.
If only there were some sort of spell that lets you act without winning init. Some sort of magical ability to increase your celerity.
you cant immediate action if you haven't acted yet.
-
well, its moot, because kord automatically wins initiative. i dont give shit about your über spell power, cause you wont get the opportunity to USE it.
If only there were some sort of spell that lets you act without winning init. Some sort of magical ability to increase your celerity.
you cant immediate action if you haven't acted yet.
with a cunning legacy weapon you can. or, hell, ye old dire turtle shapeshift.
-
well, its moot, because kord automatically wins initiative. i dont give shit about your über spell power, cause you wont get the opportunity to USE it.
If only there were some sort of spell that lets you act without winning init. Some sort of magical ability to increase your celerity.
you cant immediate action if you haven't acted yet.
Only time you can't take an immediate actions if you are flat-footed (Rules Compendium, pg 7).
Hence, Foresight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm).
You are never flat-footed.
Thus, you can cast Celerity at any point, even during the surprise round.
Thus, you never lose.
-
For those of you new to 3.5 optimization I just want to point out something. Using Foresight+Celerity a Wizard can act whenever they want, or by being a Dire Tortoise or being a Minotaur and using Celerity. That's bad, but what's worse is the fact that the Wizard will probably pop off a maximized Timestop, maybe a maximized twinned Timestop if they are showing off. So they don't get 1 action before you, they get 5-10 and they are going to be immune to daze from Celerity.
So basically if you can't stop Celerity you have to give a Wizard 10 rounds to do whatever they want to you. Good luck surviving that.
-
Extended Time Stop is great too.
-
Extended Time Stop is great too.
Can't Extend Time Stop I thought?
Didn't they errata it to Duration: instantaneous?
After all, if you can extend it then why can't you persist it?
-
You know, I really don't know about the erratta issue. It might have been, I suppose...
-
Extended Time Stop is great too.
Can't Extend Time Stop I thought?
Didn't they errata it to Duration: instantaneous?
After all, if you can extend it then why can't you persist it?
It was never errata'd. It's always had a duration entry, and it was never changed. The only time they said something about that is in the 3.0 FAQ, which a) has never been RAW, and b) is overruled by the 3.5 actual rules, which still contains the Duration entry.
Now what really doesn't work by strict RAW is MAXIMISING Time stop, because it doesn't have an "Effect" entry, and only variable "Effects" are maximised.
-
well, its moot, because kord automatically wins initiative. i dont give shit about your über spell power, cause you wont get the opportunity to USE it.
If only there were some sort of spell that lets you act without winning init. Some sort of magical ability to increase your celerity.
you cant immediate action if you haven't acted yet.
with a cunning legacy weapon you can. or, hell, ye old dire turtle shapeshift.
but kord knows this. a few days in advance. so he sends a proxy. or hell, he goes himself while you're prepping spells.
also, does dire turle get a surprise round, or initiative win? and remember, if kord surprises you, you have to see who goes first on the suprise round. with an initiative roll. which he wins.
also, kord doesn't need to actually encounter you. he can just use alter reality to do everything you can(admittedly barring metamagic, but he can make any effect permanent), and create a stupidly powerful minion that just goes f*ck your ass. and he can become a dire turtle too.
oh well, but that hardly makes a point, i guess. except that deities are overpowered and needs a nerf.
-
So basically if you can't stop Celerity you have to give a Wizard 10 rounds to do whatever they want to you. Good luck surviving that.
Belt of Battle.
Assuming it is your turn, your Belt of Battle can be triggered in response to a Celerity spell giving you a round's worth of actions to AMF them. In game wise you'll have to ID Celerity to know to use your belt and you'd have to win initiative so this is already outside of most people's abilities.
As for the Dire Turtle, just hide. The pre-surprise round while the would be attacker is still hidden and isn't known to be there just means the wizard just burns his actions on continuing to drink his herbal tea. Then it is the hidden guy's surprise round and he has a Belt...
The real problem is Craft Contingency and if the forum wizard ever actually cast that spell the would be attacker can probably use a divination spell or just diplomacy up the questions to the wizard so not only would the forum wizard's contingencies not be a "oh yeah, I have blah blah cus I never stat anything out so I can change it nyah" but they would also be known to the would be assassin. But there in lays the damn problem really. Any time someone mutters wizard on the forums it's like playing chess against someone who refuses to put his peaces on the chess board. Anytime you would check his King after finding it the player, not the piece, changes his mind and argues he never played that way so his King isn't there to be checked. The one thread is all BG's existence here that tried to stat out the wizard failed as posters quickly found out they could not fit every trick they like to brag about in at once and it's popularity quickly fell. It did make some head way though.
-
So basically if you can't stop Celerity you have to give a Wizard 10 rounds to do whatever they want to you. Good luck surviving that.
Belt of Battle.
Assuming it is your turn, your Belt of Battle can be triggered in response to a Celerity spell giving you a round's worth of actions to AMF them.
You can't use a swift action in response to someone else's action. That's how immediate actions work, not swift actions.
As for the Dire Turtle, just hide. The pre-surprise round while the would be attacker is still hidden and isn't known to be there just means the wizard just burns his actions on continuing to drink his herbal tea. Then it is the hidden guy's surprise round and he has a Belt...
What are you talking about? At the point where the hidden guy decides to attack or whatever, the surprise round starts. The wizard gets to act during that, thanks to being a dire turtle. All the crap before that is out of combat, and so isn't even happening during a turn-based system.
The one thread is all BG's existence here that tried to stat out the wizard failed as posters quickly found out they could not fit every trick they like to brag about in at once and it's popularity quickly fell. It did make some head way though.
lol, wut? From what I remember from that thread, the non-casters basically gave up, except for a couple of specific combos which could probably work to beat most wizards, except the ones using really extreme cheese like locked demiplanes and Astral Projection. Go look at the thread. There are several specific wizard builds there for people to try their hand at. There were a couple of idiot posters that were being "non-committal" as you're claiming, but they were in the minority and weren't the ones actually contributing to the thread.
-
It was never errata'd. It's always had a duration entry, and it was never changed. The only time they said something about that is in the 3.0 FAQ, which a) has never been RAW, and b) is overruled by the 3.5 actual rules, which still contains the Duration entry.
Now what really doesn't work by strict RAW is MAXIMISING Time stop, because it doesn't have an "Effect" entry, and only variable "Effects" are maximised.
It's clear one can only either Maximize or Extend Timestop, but which is not clear.
Your assertion about strict RAW is however bogus, since "effects" is used in a ton of different places and does not always mean the "Effect" line. Look under Saving Throw in the Magic Overview section of the SRD for instance: does it mean saves are meaningless except for Effect spells ?
I wonder if your definition of Maximize lets it apply to even one spell... :P
-
The one thread is all BG's existence here that tried to stat out the wizard failed as posters quickly found out they could not fit every trick they like to brag about in at once and it's popularity quickly fell. It did make some head way though.
If I recall correctly I posted a build and so did PhaedrusXY. Anyone can view the thread here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3763.0). I think both of this where self limiting, but no one was able to beat them so we never went fully gorgonzola with a Wizard build. If you think you have a build that can beat either of our Wizards I'd love to see it.
-
Extremely good points. This is why I'm pretty sure that we would need to first think up something that would atleast counter (but not necessarily defeat) these tactics. The product would most definitely be homebrew or epic.
Ok, if we enter epic monsters, i sorta think i'll say this: deities.
Mmmm. Looking for Epic Monster abilities is fine to me Lets face it a lot of "epic" material can be done by non-epic characters. Deities are just the DM having fun with you. So yea, I draw a line.
For those of you new to 3.5 optimization I just want to point out something.
Let's suppose that we know the tricks. I don't want too much derailment. The last very useful post was about stopping spells before they were cast.... which was exactly like my initial homebrew ideas.
-
You can't use a swift action in response to someone else's action. That's how immediate actions work, not swift actions.
RC's entries for both Swift and Immediate actions do not sate either can interrupt anything merely that they can be used at any time, with one being limited to only your turn and the other works just like Swift but can be used when it's not your turn. The idea of interrupting seems to stem from the any time part (swift has) and stealing the rules of a ready action taking effect before the action that triggers under the validation that since the only two other examples (AoO for standing as the FAQ answers & contingency) of also behave the same way that create the idea of an undefined rule idea of how things work. There is nothing within the rule books that supports immidate actions interrupt an action taking place (other than the side note of 3E's swift/free are free actions, which hey use that example and its still the same outcome) and there is no magic line in swift action saying it don't provided it is your turn. Anything to add to that outside of personal opinion like a rules quote unlike every other time some one has arguing against this?
What are you talking about? At the point where the hidden guy decides to attack or whatever, the surprise round starts.
You missed the point completed and utterly. Every time I bring this up it happens too.
Wizard: ahh such a nice day outside, I can't see anyone near me right now.
Hidden guy attacking: I shoot my bow!
DM: K, you got the surprise round since he doesn't know you're there. your attack unhides you and roll some dice to see if you hit.
Wizard: I'm a turtle I go before him! It's my turn!
DM: Ok, well you're going before he attacks so he is still hidden, still out of sight, and you still didn't know he was there.
PhaedrusXY: I don't care, steal his soul.
Me: Again the wizard doesn't know he is there as the action that revealed him never took place yet.
PhaedrusXY: It's my turn I kill him!
:eh
[too lazy to nab the quote]
Also glad you linked to the thread. Plainly I see in Juton & PhaedrusXY's posts the only contingency is to shift back when they become unable to act. Any comments of other contingency, such as loved comments like contingency vs AMF or some one getting close or a spell trigger by free action speech which happen virtually every thread.
Actually, PhaedrusXY's build makes no mention of dealing with AMF other than abusing celerity/direturtle (see above) making smearing some glue on an antimagic torc a rather effective tactic as if it wasn't the second thing on your list following you moving close and beating them with a sharp stick. Anyone going to jump in and change unable to act to unable to cast spells to prevent such a cheap tactic as tossing a rock some where near the target before falling onto them in a battle jump or less useful roof-jumper now? Please. :(
-
"Oh, so I just randomly entered combat. According to my horoscope for today, the next time I'd be attacked by somebody they'd be 97.5 degrees to my left, at elevation 3.5 feat, and between thirty and twenty five feet away. Forcecage."
-
"Oh, so I just randomly entered combat. According to my horoscope for today, the next time I'd be attacked by somebody they'd be 97.5 degrees to my left, at elevation 3.5 feat, and between thirty and twenty five feet away. Forcecage."
ah, contact other plane. is there any argument you CAN'T win? :lmao
-
It's clear one can only either Maximize or Extend Timestop, but which is not clear.
Your assertion about strict RAW is however bogus, since "effects" is used in a ton of different places and does not always mean the "Effect" line. Look under Saving Throw in the Magic Overview section of the SRD for instance: does it mean saves are meaningless except for Effect spells ?
I wonder if your definition of Maximize lets it apply to even one spell... :P
Well... WoTC writers don't know shit about strict RAW, as in, a strict and consistent definition of terms. So... yeah. But the duration thing is pretty clear, nonetheless. But... different discussion, I'm sure :).
-
It's all Contact other Plane, well mostly. You can't surprise someone who abuses Contact other Plane period. Until you can find a counter for it then these AntiCaster threads are useless.
-
What are you talking about? At the point where the hidden guy decides to attack or whatever, the surprise round starts.
You missed the point completed and utterly. Every time I bring this up it happens too.
Wizard: ahh such a nice day outside, I can't see anyone near me right now.
Hidden guy attacking: I shoot my bow!
DM: K, you got the surprise round since he doesn't know you're there. your attack unhides you and roll some dice to see if you hit.
Wizard: I'm a turtle I go before him! It's my turn!
DM: Ok, well you're going before he attacks so he is still hidden, still out of sight, and you still didn't know he was there.
PhaedrusXY: I don't care, steal his soul.
Me: Again the wizard doesn't know he is there as the action that revealed him never took place yet.
PhaedrusXY: It's my turn I kill him!
:eh
No, I am not missing anything. Immediate actions can interrupt other actions. The second the "hiding guy" starts to do anything, the wizard gets to go and interrupt his action. That's how immediate actions work. You can interrupt other people's actions with them.
I used the dire turtle crap because everyone else seems to think it matters. In reality, it doesn't. You don't need to be a dire turtle, and in fact if the only way to prevent yourself from being flatfooted is to be a minotaur, you're better off being one of those. All that matters is 1) You're not flat-footed, and 2) You can cast Celerity.
And if the first guy has already fired his bow, he is given away. If the wizard has a way to go before the arrow hits, but after it has been fired (i.e. interrupt the first guy's action, as with Celerity), your argument does not work.
Actually, PhaedrusXY's build makes no mention of dealing with AMF other than abusing celerity/direturtle (see above) making smearing some glue on an antimagic torc a rather effective tactic as if it wasn't the second thing on your list following you moving close and beating them with a sharp stick. Anyone going to jump in and change unable to act to unable to cast spells to prevent such a cheap tactic as tossing a rock some where near the target before falling onto them in a battle jump or less useful roof-jumper now? Please. :(
The (shrunken) big metal hat is there to block AMF, if someone tries to walk up to you with one. As stated below, Contact Other Plane takes care of any unforeseen threats.
-
That's how immediate actions work. You can interrupt other people's actions with them.
Anything to add to that outside of personal opinion like a rules quote unlike every other time some one has arguing against this?
**
As stated below, Contact Other Plane takes care of any unforeseen threats.
COP-out? >.>
A. The god of magic Bob doesn't know the answer.
Your true answer will be what Bob knows and chances he has already seen even one of your spells within a 20 week area where billions of spellcasters cast a hundred spells per day is just as large of a chance as the attention you warrant from him.
B. The god Bob is willing to stop weaving the ability for mortals to cast spells to answer you.
Bob doesn't know the true answer unless he researches it which requires a standard action on his part and contact other plane says the answer is provided within the same round. Obviously this means that the god has to stop everything and all godly duties in order to stop and research an answer for a stupid mortal unwilling to answer it's own questions.
C. Bob doesn't have an automated machine and listens to everything.
High level devoted worshipers still get spells though an automatic spell granting system. Why? Do you think it has to do with thousands of spell requests provided daily are too insignificant to pay any real attention to? What about those pesky wizards? also, just how many wizards are trying to abuse the system like this anyway? Two incoming calls means someone is getting a call back later in the form of untruthful answers.
D. Bob doesn't know the outcome of the spell.
So the god knows you cast magic missile Saturday the 14th at 9:03am at monster Joe. Did SR block it? did the monster make it's save? Did you even ask those quests? anyway, Bob can only guess that since you didn't cast a second magic missile one of you died and pick that you win based off nothing more than betting odds.
E. Bob knows death, but can he see why kids love nonlethal damage?
Give bob the Death portfolio and you still don't know if the creature you cast MM at didn't just bonk you upside the head and tossed you into a bag of holding for later abuse. Are we seeing a pattern yet?
F. Is Bob willing to nurture the helpless baby?
To sit around all day answering your questions as noted above. One wonders why he doesn't just tell you to figure things out your self and live your life without being cuddled in his arms all the damn time. In more extreme cases, such as lacking the word "good" in his alignment you probably get told off in a way that you probably get the point after the 7th 35 headed winged awakened half-golem terrasqua killed you.
G. Bob is awesome, hey hes a god right?
Bob still has to deal with the red tape of deityhood. The same unheard by mortal ears laws that prevent Bob from strolling around on Earth simply beating people up for you is keeping his direct influence of all future events being told to you all the time. Bob also isn't the only god in existence and after you beat up Tim's favorite wizard theres going to be some holy wars going on. Now Bob is too busy in a war to listen to you.
H. Bob killed the other gods, thus no one is going to pop in and distract him from paying attention to you.
Bob is a house rule and never existed anyway. Where is your god now? We're talking in game flavor here and the official Grayhawk, Dragonlance, FR, & Ebberron material supersede your made up version of FR and none of the gods there get away with crap like this so even if you renamed Bob to Mystria it's still the same thing.
I. Joe, the guy that cast MM at you, also is assumed to have free control of the world to mass dozens of things within his scope of abilities.
Hes a bard. Talking to someone for one minute is a thousand times more viable the COP-out. His legion of everything you wished you had costs less, is more reliable, and by RAW this tactic is a hell of a lot more powerful too. Problem is when you start assuming you have infinite time to do what ever you want, such as building a plane, cloning, COPing, etc. without being stopped and assuming everything falls in your favor you also freely wave all complaints against someone else doing the same. Diplomacy is the only thing greater than Pun-Pun and well within the realm of anyone and when placed in the favorable world the Bard just talks to people in their spare time and created world peace among all civilized nations within a weekend.
J. Stop talking, I'm not listening to yyyyooooouuuuu.
It's ok, I'm done too. Stake everything you have as a pro argument on COP-out we both know it will never happen in a real game and I'm happy with that. Mindful for many of the same reasons above and the ones I missed you'll never, ever, be standing in an acceptable position for anyone to ever accept your so called end all thread riddled with holes and points to contest even in the most basic of functionality.
-
Your argument is as follows:
"contact other plane does not work the way the DnD 3.5 PHB says it does"
The game you are playing is obviously not DnD 3.5. Please direct your responses to the appropriate forum for whatever game system you are using.
-
TML is kind of being a jerk but he's right. Theoretical discussions like this don't take DM fiat into effect. If they did then the conversations would be impossible.
-
TML is kind of being a jerk but he's right. Theoretical discussions like this don't take DM fiat into effect. If they did then the conversations would be impossible.
Especially given the vast differences between what various DMs consider acceptable and the degree to which they house rule things to make it fit their idea of what the game should be. I have heard stories on these boards of a DM who have let a player play Pun-Pun and then there are people like kevin video's DMs.
-
Since the caster's actions are so powerful, challenging them means either denying them actions or making them chose the wrong actions. The easiest way to do this is to make for a confusing battlefield. Consider using illusions to create fake opponents, as well as having opponents come in waves so the casters blow their best abilities before the main force arrives. And you should be able to use antidivination abilities to an extend (not every caster can cast Contact Other Plane). Heck, one of our DMs used ambushing lizards that wore lead lined cloaks designed much like gilly suits. They'd wait in ambush, then sick war beasts at the party. As the party dealt with that, they'd suddenly pop up and open fire, then retreat into caves where most divinations can't penetrate.
JaronK
-
I'm surprised nobody noticed them. The ACP on those armors should be what, -8 or so?
-
Hm. Hidden Talent Warblade 4/Slayer 6/Eternal Blade 10.
Immediate Action full round. Immune to divinations. 17th level initiator.
Will have trouble getting to the same playing ground as wizard, but once there, can at least get an opportunity to try to hit them. AMF helps.
And when an initiator hits, the target knows they've been hit.
Let's see; if a contingency doesn't go off 'til we get an antimagic field going (after which a contingency cannot go off, ) we... win. The wizard will have max. HP around 160, once his gear goes off-line. That's nothing.
We cannot be spotted by divination, so we need good stats and max ranks on hide, move silently and balance, preferrably.
if there's a resilient sphere or somesuch effect online... hm. Tricky. there are ways around that, but most require supernatural or magic ability, meaning the wizard's contingencies are on-line.
A contingency might not react to an undivinable character, but there are other ways - make it react to changes in air pressure, for an example.
-
You need to enter his square before switching on the AMF, or else his Iron-Wall hat will revert to full size once he gets hit with the AMF.
So... perhaps burrow up to him. Except... how do you find him?
-
I'd thought of that as well Senevri, but the problem with that line of inquiry is that said divination isn't detecting you per se, but a threat to the wizard. Even if you're in stealth mode, you still trigger spidey sense. Also, bear in mind the worst of us are fond of that very sudden strike type ambush leaving an unpleasant surprise where we once stood as a contingency, such as a benign transposition with that invisible buffed to the 9's balor we planar bound last century :P Warblade uberstrikes can usually down balors no problemo...however, when said balor has a 50% miss chance, a 60+ Str, and an AC around 50...might pose a problem :P
EDIT : And props to the gilly suit comment. NCIS fan?
EDIT #2 : Also, doesn't Shadow Weave Magic prevent most AMF issues? IIRC they draw on a different Weave, thus are not subject to the effects of the regular one. FR specific, but as most of my games happen there, I'd think it to be relevant.
EDIT #3 : Also again, what are your plans for wizards with obscene caster levels (like the new TBS I just posted) who can uncap shapechange and turn into a Phane or other being capable of fucking with the time stream at will?
-
I'm surprised nobody noticed them. The ACP on those armors should be what, -8 or so?
They're lead lined gilly suits, so it counts as an ACP of -10 generally, but when hiding and not moving the ACP does not apply to hide checks, and they got a +4 circumstance bonus. Of course, that's the GM's ruling, but it does make plenty of sense.
JaronK
-
I'm going to have to chime in to the COP discussion, too:
It IS a completely ROTTEN spell. I mean... look:
Question 1: Am I going to be attacked today.
Answer (rolled for true): Yes
Question 2: Am I going to be injured?
Answer(again rolled for true): Umm..... you WILL if I say so. Even if you stay in bed all day.
Question3: Am I going to die?
Answer (true again): You really want to push me, don't you? YES, you're going to die, because I say so. No, actually, because you asked!
(Question4: Is my contingency against death going to save me?
Answer: Uh.... here's your new character. He's called BARRY BARBARIAN.)
What happens later that day is that said wizard is attacked by rat, bitten by a flea, and then drops dead at 11:59pm from a heart attack because the answer had to be true. And guess what, just at that moment his party mate Fred Warblade twitches in his sleep and triggers his Antimagic torc. What did we win, here?
Basically COP puts a party, or at least a character, knee deep in railroad muck, because once answered those questions have to come true, even if the character does something completely different than what he was supposed to do.
So basically COP isn't the "Give me your notes" thing, it's "Put me on a rail, with really windy tracks, but really really fixed stops."
-
You're asking the questions wrong.
-
You're asking the questions wrong.
Obviously I'm being willfully obtuse... :D
-
Someone is forgetting their temporal theory I see. Those answers only apply if the course remains as it is. Alterations to the course both remove the danger (i.e. determine the asshat warblade whose steel weapon will bounce off my ironguard buttcheeks anyway and incinerate him and his entire family, and the city he lives in just to be sure) and change the course, so to speak. COP merely tells what will happen should nothing change, and thus is the reasoning behind always being prepared, and as such, being GOD. Reality bows to you, not the other way around, as does time, as does matter. And for the intrepid young melee warriors of renowned prowess, that last category includes you ;)
-
Someone is forgetting their temporal theory I see. Those answers only apply if the course remains as it is. Alterations to the course both remove the danger (i.e. determine the asshat warblade whose steel weapon will bounce off my ironguard buttcheeks anyway and incinerate him and his entire family, and the city he lives in just to be sure) and change the course, so to speak. COP merely tells what will happen should nothing change, and thus is the reasoning behind always being prepared, and as such, being GOD. Reality bows to you, not the other way around, as does time, as does matter. And for the intrepid young melee warriors of renowned prowess, that last category includes you ;)
basically, yeah.
COP predicts what would have happened if the wizard didn't know that he would get attacked. since he knows, he can take countermeasures.
this is why this spell is stupid.
-
WELL, technically COP doesn't even specify that it can predict the future. It's just that some gods know what will happen.
HOWEVER, I disagree on changing the future theory: IF you can predict what will happen, then it has to happen. If everything is open then you obviously can't predict what will happen.
Upon rereading, I also noticed some serious setbacks to invulnerability via COP: The "Maybe" of doom! Since you can't prepare for everything, and your DM can just answer "maybe" to every question this leaves you just as prepared as previously. And it gets worse: On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked by an act of certain deities or forces.
That's like the counter-COP-out.
All things considered perhaps it's best to ask concrete questions about present happenings, in order use it only as a better form of Scrying, rather than for predicting the fututre, for example: Is my arch-enemy, Wally Warblade, plotting to destroy me? Is he planning to attack me today? Are there Beholders in Dungeon X? Do legends exist about the Mindboggling Artifact of Doom? Etc.
So, in the end, the Dweomercheater of Mystra wins again, because he's always prepared for everything. :)
-
On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked by an act of certain deities or forces.
That's like the counter-COP-out.
That's good to remember. I guess the pertinent question is which god/force do you have to bribe so that COP-out doesn't work? Is it just the god of magic or fate, or would you have to sway others?
-
All things considered perhaps it's best to ask concrete questions about present happenings, in order use it only as a better form of Scrying, rather than for predicting the fututre
Even limiting yourself to that sort of use of the spell is still broken as it keeps all intrigue, mystery and surprises out of the campaign by using only a moderate amount downtime. My DM had to ask me to stop using divination spells on the plot with my wizard because it would really mess up what he had planned for our future adventures. And all I asked were things like, which way is the bad guy's lair and how far away is it.
-
All things considered perhaps it's best to ask concrete questions about present happenings, in order use it only as a better form of Scrying, rather than for predicting the fututre
Even limiting yourself to that sort of use of the spell is still broken as it keeps all intrigue, mystery and surprises out of the campaign by using only a moderate amount downtime. My DM had to ask me to stop using divination spells on the plot with my wizard because it would really mess up what he had planned for our future adventures. And all I asked were things like, which way is the bad guy's lair and how far away is it.
Normally I would say this is a sign of self-centered GMing, i.e. the GM sees himself as the grand presenter of the plot he has invented, and the players get to beat down the bad guys at the appointed places. Now IF he were to think about less plot, more scenario, and let the PCs do the plot moves, that would not make such a request necessary.
I would say after thinking about it a bit, COP is a good spell for a PC centered campaign.
-
DiplomacyThe Lady of Pain is the only thing greater than Pun-Pun
fixed that.
Diplomacy fails compared with pun-pun. why? Pun-Pun can use diplomacy too, and has a higher mod that any other possible build, and automatically rolls 20.
-
Normally I would say this is a sign of self-centered GMing, i.e. the GM sees himself as the grand presenter of the plot he has invented, and the players get to beat down the bad guys at the appointed places.
I think it has more to do with the next BBEG being to powerful for us at level 11, and our game structure is more focused on small individual adventures with the overall plot only coming into it very rarely. So we might be level 15 before the main plot would comes into our game again.
-
Normally I would say this is a sign of self-centered GMing, i.e. the GM sees himself as the grand presenter of the plot he has invented, and the players get to beat down the bad guys at the appointed places.
I think it has more to do with the next BBEG being to powerful for us at level 11, and our game structure is more focused on small individual adventures with the overall plot only coming into it very rarely. So we might be level 15 before the main plot would comes into our game again.
The DM could give you clues that you aren't powerful enough to face the BBEG yet. When I DM, I tell the players that they shouldn't expect every NPC in the world to represent a CR-appropriate encounter. If they go pick a fight with a great wyrm red dragon and they're level 1, I will kill them all without remorse. ;) It makes the game too stupid and unbelievable to do otherwise, IMO.
-
Normally I would say this is a sign of self-centered GMing, i.e. the GM sees himself as the grand presenter of the plot he has invented, and the players get to beat down the bad guys at the appointed places.
I think it has more to do with the next BBEG being to powerful for us at level 11, and our game structure is more focused on small individual adventures with the overall plot only coming into it very rarely. So we might be level 15 before the main plot would comes into our game again.
The DM could give you clues that you aren't powerful enough to face the BBEG yet. When I DM, I tell the players that they shouldn't expect every NPC in the world to represent a CR-appropriate encounter. If they go pick a fight with a great wyrm red dragon and they're level 1, I will kill them all without remorse. ;) It makes the game too stupid and unbelievable to do otherwise, IMO.
Pretty much that. I won't say I'm perfect with the hints, OR that I don't also give CR appropriate encounters - IF I bring them as encounters. It's fights the PC can pick which are not necessarily appropriate.
-
]The DM could give you clues that you aren't powerful enough to face the BBEG yet. When I DM, I tell the players that they shouldn't expect every NPC in the world to represent a CR-appropriate encounter. If they go pick a fight with a great wyrm red dragon and they're level 1, I will kill them all without remorse. ;) It makes the game too stupid and unbelievable to do otherwise, IMO.
I agree :). However it doesn't relate to the thread :(
Talking about COP planes is fine because it is a very large trick up a caster's sleeve. Without banning/mega-nerfing it (but even us optimizers probably would) I'd say preventing it from being cast is only of the few or only ways to make it fair for a non-caster. Right?
-
not sur if this is possible, but arcane archer+antimagic field= WHAM!
-
AMF doesn't shut down casters.
Not only does he see it coming, but it has both a Contingency and Invoke Magic and maybe even Initiate of Mystra.
-
AMF doesn't shut down casters.
Not only does he see it coming, but it has both a Contingency and Invoke Magic and maybe even Initiate of Mystra.
Actually the arcane archer version is pretty good at shutting them down. The AMF doesn't "go off" till they've already been hit with the arrow. And it is CORE, so it will work in any game. Not every caster is a Cheater of Mystra, or has a Contingency or Invoke Magic to deal with it.
-
AMF doesn't shut down casters.
Not only does he see it coming, but it has both a Contingency and Invoke Magic and maybe even Initiate of Mystra.
Actually the arcane archer version is pretty good at shutting them down. The AMF doesn't "go off" till they've already been hit with the arrow. And it is CORE, so it will work in any game. Not every caster is a Cheater of Mystra, or has a Contingency or Invoke Magic to deal with it.
Of course, if the AMF ends up trapping you inside your hat with the arrow, there's always the option of just covering it up with your handkerchief and blocking the LOE. Preferably in such a way that keeps the hat up, but whatever.
-
AMF doesn't shut down casters.
Not only does he see it coming, but it has both a Contingency and Invoke Magic and maybe even Initiate of Mystra.
Actually the arcane archer version is pretty good at shutting them down. The AMF doesn't "go off" till they've already been hit with the arrow. And it is CORE, so it will work in any game. Not every caster is a Cheater of Mystra, or has a Contingency or Invoke Magic to deal with it.
Of course, if the AMF ends up trapping you inside your hat with the arrow, there's always the option of just covering it up with your handkerchief and blocking the LOE. Preferably in such a way that keeps the hat up, but whatever.
Is that an adamantine handkerchief? :D
More seriously, I don't think that would work. The effect is centered on the target (so caster), not the arrow, IIRC.
When the arrow is fired, the spells area is centered on where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster
If you get hit with the arrow, I'd say you are "where it landed".
-
Ordained Champion's channel spell ability would let you put an AMF centered on the Wizard. You'd have to go up and whack the caster with a melee weapon, but if you could do that you could shut them down.
EDIT: Arcane Archer's power works this way too. If you hit the Wizard then the Wizard is the AMF.
-
That would work if you can get within melee range of the wizards but that is very difficult to do.
-
Even more technically, then it's not centered on you per se, rather on the point in space that the arrow hit you at. You might need to hide under a blanket or pull out a cardboard box or something, but blocking LoE is still workable. Although I'm not sure if "lands" is the right verb to describe impaling somebody.
Collapsible hatracks: now available at your local wizardry supply store.
-
Let's not forget that a proper SCM can probably still pull a miracle out of a 4th level slot...literally :P
-
Let's not forget that a proper SCM can probably still pull a miracle out of a 4th level slot...literally :P
How early can they pull that off?
-
Personally, I like the idea of wrapping some Shrink Item'd water around the AMF arrow (what with the shrunk item gaining clothlike consistenncy). If it hits, the caster is inside his adamantine cone within an AMF, submerged in water.
Not my idea, sadly.
-
Personally, I like the idea of wrapping some Shrink Item'd water around the AMF arrow (what with the shrunk item gaining clothlike consistenncy). If it hits, the caster is inside his adamantine cone within an AMF, submerged in water.
Not my idea, sadly.
this is pure awesome.
-
Even more technically, then it's not centered on you per se, rather on the point in space that the arrow hit you at. You might need to hide under a blanket or pull out a cardboard box or something, but blocking LoE is still workable. Although I'm not sure if "lands" is the right verb to describe impaling somebody.
Collapsible hatracks: now available at your local wizardry supply store.
If even a little bit of a person is in an emanation then they take the full effect. So if the arrow hits you then you are in an AMF.
Personally, I like the idea of wrapping some Shrink Item'd water around the AMF arrow (what with the shrunk item gaining clothlike consistenncy). If it hits, the caster is inside his adamantine cone within an AMF, submerged in water.
Not my idea, sadly.
I love the AMF water balloon! For the sake of argument lets say that an Arcane Archer has some way of dropping an AMF on a Wizard. Is there anyway we can
guarantee the Archer gets to take a shot, and that the blasted Dire Tortoised/Celerityd caster doesn't go before them completely negating their attack.
-
Even more technically, then it's not centered on you per se, rather on the point in space that the arrow hit you at. You might need to hide under a blanket or pull out a cardboard box or something, but blocking LoE is still workable. Although I'm not sure if "lands" is the right verb to describe impaling somebody.
Collapsible hatracks: now available at your local wizardry supply store.
If even a little bit of a person is in an emanation then they take the full effect. So if the arrow hits you then you are in an AMF.
Personally, I like the idea of wrapping some Shrink Item'd water around the AMF arrow (what with the shrunk item gaining clothlike consistenncy). If it hits, the caster is inside his adamantine cone within an AMF, submerged in water.
Not my idea, sadly.
I love the AMF water balloon! For the sake of argument lets say that an Arcane Archer has some way of dropping an AMF on a Wizard. Is there anyway we can
guarantee the Archer gets to take a shot, and that the blasted Dire Tortoised/Celerityd caster doesn't go before them completely negating their attack.
Total stealth mode and optimizing range on our arrows so we can shoot them before they can see us?
-
I got to thinking about Contact Other Plane. There is no specific RAW defense against it. Even the general anti-divination spells don't work because it's a god watching on you. But what if you politely asked said god to stop telling Wizards your plans?
Enter Miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Miracle.htm).
Miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Miracle.htm) allows you to choose an effect that is not specifically from a spell. Since COP-out is a 5th level spell it would be in line with the power of a 7th level spell to stop Contact Other Plane from relaying any information about you. COP even states 'On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked by an act of certain deities or forces'.
The problem with this is that there is a subjective element to it. That and a Wizard could potentially Miracle the lines of communication open again. Still it could work, or be a part of the larger solution.
-
I think we are all forgetting the biggest problem with ranged attacks here.
Foresight: "Hey wizard, you're about to get stuck with an arrow. Some dude already fired it and impact is imminent."
Wizard: "...Oh."
/cast Wind Wall
what about a hulking Hurler build throwing an obsidian boulder on him? Can't exactly Ironguard against a rock.
-
I think we are all forgetting the biggest problem with ranged attacks here.
Foresight: "Hey wizard, you're about to get stuck with an arrow. Some dude already fired it and impact is imminent."
Wizard: "...Oh."
/cast Wind Wall
what about a hulking Hurler build throwing an obsidian boulder on him? Can't exactly Ironguard against a rock.
You can always earthglide into it though...
-
I think we are all forgetting the biggest problem with ranged attacks here.
Foresight: "Hey wizard, you're about to get stuck with an arrow. Some dude already fired it and impact is imminent."
Wizard: "...Oh."
/cast Wind Wall
what about a hulking Hurler build throwing an obsidian boulder on him? Can't exactly Ironguard against a rock.
You can always earthglide into it though...
Damnit. :banghead
-
I think we are all forgetting the biggest problem with ranged attacks here.
Foresight: "Hey wizard, you're about to get stuck with an arrow. Some dude already fired it and impact is imminent."
Wizard: "...Oh."
/cast Wind Wall
what about a hulking Hurler build throwing an obsidian boulder on him? Can't exactly Ironguard against a rock.
Put goddamn Force on the bow or something. Seriously, I think Wind Wall is our least problem.
-
It's really Foresight + Celerity, even though most Wizards can win initiative most times they are loathe to roll it. Basically we have to find a way to make a Wizard act on his initiative order, there are high Initiative builds out there but none of them can beat Celerity. You could Celerity their Celerity however, as it takes an immediate action and you only get one of those a round (excepting the exceptions of course).
-
It's really Foresight + Celerity, even though most Wizards can win initiative most times they are loathe to roll it. Basically we have to find a way to make a Wizard act on his initiative order, there are high Initiative builds out there but none of them can beat Celerity. You could Celerity their Celerity however, as it takes an immediate action and you only get one of those a round (excepting the exceptions of course).
(http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Just-my-2-cents/xyz/wizard_vs_wizard.jpg)
-
It's really Foresight + Celerity, even though most Wizards can win initiative most times they are loathe to roll it. Basically we have to find a way to make a Wizard act on his initiative order, there are high Initiative builds out there but none of them can beat Celerity. You could Celerity their Celerity however, as it takes an immediate action and you only get one of those a round (excepting the exceptions of course).
You mean the one about using level reducers on Arcane Spellsurge and Greater Arcane Spellsurge to have stored up immediate actions? :P
-
IMMEDIATE INTIMIDATING RAGE TIME!
and THEN fire an arrow in his FACE.
or, have some distraction ready. like, a cohort with an actual antimagic field on running really fast towards the wizard. celerity only gets you one action, and you have to use one on stopping the cohort(with telekinesis) or he will shut you down. or you can stop the arrow, which he can probably do easy if he really wants to. but not both.
-
IMMEDIATE INTIMIDATING RAGE TIME!
and THEN fire an arrow in his FACE.
or, have some distraction ready. like, a cohort with an actual antimagic field on running really fast towards the wizard. celerity only gets you one action, and you have to use one on stopping the cohort(with telekinesis) or he will shut you down. or you can stop the arrow, which he can probably do easy if he really wants to. but not both.
Contingent Teleport goes off, action is used on emulating Eidetic Lock, so the wizard never forgets the puny mortals who thought they could trap him. :)
-
IMMEDIATE INTIMIDATING RAGE TIME!
and THEN fire an arrow in his FACE.
or, have some distraction ready. like, a cohort with an actual antimagic field on running really fast towards the wizard. celerity only gets you one action, and you have to use one on stopping the cohort(with telekinesis) or he will shut you down. or you can stop the arrow, which he can probably do easy if he really wants to. but not both.
Contingent Teleport goes off, action is used on emulating Eidetic Lock, so the wizard never forgets the puny mortals who thought they could trap him. :)
there's quite a bit of spells to block teleporting.
-
IMMEDIATE INTIMIDATING RAGE TIME!
and THEN fire an arrow in his FACE.
or, have some distraction ready. like, a cohort with an actual antimagic field on running really fast towards the wizard. celerity only gets you one action, and you have to use one on stopping the cohort(with telekinesis) or he will shut you down. or you can stop the arrow, which he can probably do easy if he really wants to. but not both.
Contingent Teleport goes off, action is used on emulating Eidetic Lock, so the wizard never forgets the puny mortals who thought they could trap him. :)
there's quite a bit of spells to block teleporting.
Mmhmm, and not a lot that block traveling through the earth ;)
-
IMMEDIATE INTIMIDATING RAGE TIME!
and THEN fire an arrow in his FACE.
or, have some distraction ready. like, a cohort with an actual antimagic field on running really fast towards the wizard. celerity only gets you one action, and you have to use one on stopping the cohort(with telekinesis) or he will shut you down. or you can stop the arrow, which he can probably do easy if he really wants to. but not both.
The immediate intimidating rage trick doesn't work. You can enter a rage as an immediate, but you don't actually get to intimidate until you can take free actions, on your turn.
-
You mean the one about using level reducers on Arcane Spellsurge and Greater Arcane Spellsurge to have stored up immediate actions? :P
That's clever, I think Arcane Spellsurge lets you cast spells more quickly but I don't think it gives you any more immediate actions. Could you explain what you mean by 'level reducers'? I've seen ways of getting higher level slots but never a way to make higher level spells you lower level slots. If this is some trick I've never seen it before and need an enlightening.
-
IMMEDIATE INTIMIDATING RAGE TIME!
and THEN fire an arrow in his FACE.
or, have some distraction ready. like, a cohort with an actual antimagic field on running really fast towards the wizard. celerity only gets you one action, and you have to use one on stopping the cohort(with telekinesis) or he will shut you down. or you can stop the arrow, which he can probably do easy if he really wants to. but not both.
Contingent Teleport goes off, action is used on emulating Eidetic Lock, so the wizard never forgets the puny mortals who thought they could trap him. :)
there's quite a bit of spells to block teleporting.
Mmhmm, and not a lot that block traveling through the earth ;)
true dat.
what about making our pawn's approaching you not a hostile action? like shoot him with an antimagic field arrow, charm him, tell him to go up and have a speak with you, Then fire that arrow.
-
You mean Diplomance him? Since charm inside an AMF is so ridiculously inefficient it's comical :P
-
IMMEDIATE INTIMIDATING RAGE TIME!
and THEN fire an arrow in his FACE.
or, have some distraction ready. like, a cohort with an actual antimagic field on running really fast towards the wizard. celerity only gets you one action, and you have to use one on stopping the cohort(with telekinesis) or he will shut you down. or you can stop the arrow, which he can probably do easy if he really wants to. but not both.
The immediate intimidating rage trick doesn't work. You can enter a rage as an immediate, but you don't actually get to intimidate until you can take free actions, on your turn.
Source for this? Because if I remember correctly as soon as you enter rage they have to make a check against your intimidation roll. It doesn't say anything about needing any extra actions or needing to be on your turn.
-
You mean Diplomance him? Since charm inside an AMF is so ridiculously inefficient it's comical :P
Diplomancy it is.
-
You mean Diplomance him? Since charm inside an AMF is so ridiculously inefficient it's comical :P
Diplomancy it is.
Ultimately you would just cost yourself a mook, though. Any AMF countermeasures would still go into effect, regardless of source. Not to mention, all of us that are fully paranoid persist Invoke Magic, so you'll have to lock down not just our area, but the entire area a Dimension Door can reach (which is quite a lot, especially with CL boosting).
EDIT : Take a look at the mage killer war weaver I posted in the war weaver guide. Duskblade 3 plus Arcane Archer 2 with 9th level arcane and divines and BAB 16@20, strong saves, excellent buff capability, and Dispelling Screen just like the real spellcasters use, all in all they'd at least fight em to a draw.
-
IMMEDIATE INTIMIDATING RAGE TIME!
and THEN fire an arrow in his FACE.
or, have some distraction ready. like, a cohort with an actual antimagic field on running really fast towards the wizard. celerity only gets you one action, and you have to use one on stopping the cohort(with telekinesis) or he will shut you down. or you can stop the arrow, which he can probably do easy if he really wants to. but not both.
The immediate intimidating rage trick doesn't work. You can enter a rage as an immediate, but you don't actually get to intimidate until you can take free actions, on your turn.
Source for this? Because if I remember correctly as soon as you enter rage they have to make a check against your intimidation roll. It doesn't say anything about needing any extra actions or needing to be on your turn.
The trick uses 'Instantaneous Rage' which lets you rage as an immediate action, and 'Intimidating Rage', which lets you intimidate as a free action while you are raging. That's it. There's no 'when you rage' clause in Intimidating Rage. It's a free action. And unless otherwise stated, free actions are only during your own turn. I believe both of them are in Complete Warrior.
-
IMMEDIATE INTIMIDATING RAGE TIME!
and THEN fire an arrow in his FACE.
or, have some distraction ready. like, a cohort with an actual antimagic field on running really fast towards the wizard. celerity only gets you one action, and you have to use one on stopping the cohort(with telekinesis) or he will shut you down. or you can stop the arrow, which he can probably do easy if he really wants to. but not both.
The immediate intimidating rage trick doesn't work. You can enter a rage as an immediate, but you don't actually get to intimidate until you can take free actions, on your turn.
Source for this? Because if I remember correctly as soon as you enter rage they have to make a check against your intimidation roll. It doesn't say anything about needing any extra actions or needing to be on your turn.
The trick uses 'Instantaneous Rage' which lets you rage as an immediate action, and 'Intimidating Rage', which lets you intimidate as a free action while you are raging. That's it. There's no 'when you rage' clause in Intimidating Rage. It's a free action. And unless otherwise stated, free actions are only during your own turn. I believe both of them are in Complete Warrior.
The only problem I see with that assessment is that Complete Warrior was obviously printed before Swift and Immediate actions were created, judging by the way Instantaneous Rage reads.
Unless there is an errata that states otherwise?
-
IMMEDIATE INTIMIDATING RAGE TIME!
and THEN fire an arrow in his FACE.
or, have some distraction ready. like, a cohort with an actual antimagic field on running really fast towards the wizard. celerity only gets you one action, and you have to use one on stopping the cohort(with telekinesis) or he will shut you down. or you can stop the arrow, which he can probably do easy if he really wants to. but not both.
The immediate intimidating rage trick doesn't work. You can enter a rage as an immediate, but you don't actually get to intimidate until you can take free actions, on your turn.
Source for this? Because if I remember correctly as soon as you enter rage they have to make a check against your intimidation roll. It doesn't say anything about needing any extra actions or needing to be on your turn.
The trick uses 'Instantaneous Rage' which lets you rage as an immediate action, and 'Intimidating Rage', which lets you intimidate as a free action while you are raging. That's it. There's no 'when you rage' clause in Intimidating Rage. It's a free action. And unless otherwise stated, free actions are only during your own turn. I believe both of them are in Complete Warrior.
The only problem I see with that assessment is that Complete Warrior was obviously printed before Swift and Immediate actions were created, judging by the way Instantaneous Rage reads.
Unless there is an errata that states otherwise?
Yeah, I went back and looked. Intimidating Rage needs a free action. Instantaneous Rage needs a free action that can be performed during other players' turns. See the difference? You can't use Intimidating Rage except during your turn.
-
If you are that worried about ranged attacks get friendly fire...all my mages have it; no more rays, no more arcane archers with their antimagic arrows...etc
-
not that worried 'bout divinations.
The ability even foils bend reality, limited wish, miracle, reality revision, and wish when they are used to gain information about the slayers location
.
Still, having a friendly diplomancer convince the target's god not to give any early hints might be a good idea.
an Antimagic Ray wouldn't activate the wizard's magic hat.
Frankly, though, determining the efficiency of various divination effects is really really annoying. :/
Actual player wizards are usually embarrasingly easy to kill, though - lure them into a genesis'd demiplane with a single astral link, then block that link and they're already in deep, deep trouble. A theoretical paranoid wizard who really doesn't want to risk dying is really very tricky.
-
not that worried 'bout divinations.
The ability even foils bend reality, limited wish, miracle, reality revision, and wish when they are used to gain information about the slayers location
.
Still, having a friendly diplomancer convince the target's god not to give any early hints might be a good idea.
an Antimagic Ray wouldn't activate the wizard's magic hat.
Frankly, though, determining the efficiency of various divination effects is really really annoying. :/
Actual player wizards are usually embarrasingly easy to kill, though - lure them into a genesis'd demiplane with a single astral link, then block that link and they're already in deep, deep trouble. A theoretical paranoid wizard who really doesn't want to risk dying is really very tricky.
An Antimagic Ray will bounce harmlessly back at you :)
-
Right. Spell Turning. Reasonable, even.
-
Foresight: "Hey wizard, you're about to get stuck with an arrow. Some dude already fired it and impact is imminent."
I'm sorry, all I heard was "The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. therefor Powerful Build makes me large, it stacks with Monkey Grip". Have you read the rules following foresight where the mechanical bonus of the spell is the insight bonuses (an insight bonus improves performance of a given activity by granting the character an almost precognitive knowledge of what might occur) and that you are no longer flat-footed? There is no exact warning of the type of attack and whom does it from where nor does it grant a surprise round nor auto winning initiative nor anything else I can say you assume it does.
***
Contingent Teleport goes off, action is used on emulating Eidetic Lock, so the wizard never forgets the puny mortals who thought they could trap him. :)
*points*Also glad you linked to the thread. Plainly I see in Juton & PhaedrusXY's posts the only contingency is to shift back when they become unable to act. Any comments of other contingency, such as loved comments like contingency vs AMF or some one getting close or a spell trigger by free action speech which happen virtually every thread. ... Anyone going to jump in and change unable to act to unable to cast spells to prevent such a cheap tactic as tossing a rock some where near the target before falling onto them in a battle jump or less useful roof-jumper now? Please. :(
COPint out to say you had the right contingincy? I used COP and dialed up Pelor and my question "Can you block Wizard Kell's future foresight based on forced answers from what may be you're hated enemy Vecna?" and I got a "yes" back.
***
It's really Foresight + Celerity, even though most Wizards can win initiative most times they are loathe to roll it. Basically we have to find a way to make a Wizard act on his initiative order, there are high Initiative builds out there but none of them can beat Celerity. You could Celerity their Celerity however, as it takes an immediate action and you only get one of those a round (excepting the exceptions of course).
Belt of Battle; see every wizard vs X thread I have ever posted on for rules quotes and lack of real arguments against it. Like here and this:
Anything to add to that outside of personal opinion like a rules quote unlike every other time some one has arguing against this?
Gone ignored by PhaedrusXY this time around even though I went out of my way and called him out to prove otherwise (pretty sure I didn't skim past his response in the last 4 pages at least)
***
BTW, what is the big deal with the admantine cone anyway?
Someone mentioned Battle Jump before. Heres a little math since I'm bored. 7 (greatsword's 2d6 avg) + 13 (only 28 str without the +6 enhancer) + 40 (PA 20) * 2 (battle jump) - 20 (hardness) * 4 (attacks per charge via bab and pounce) = 400 for an unoptimized damage amount in an AMF. Guess how much HP a foot of adamantine has? Yeah, 400. Guess the hat trick falls on it's face vs PC meleers.
Picture this. Wizard's dire turtle surprise round is bypassed for whatever reasons, like hiding. The attacker's belt counters Celerity and antimagic's the wizard which prompts the cone to fall. Then he burns a move action jumping over and breaking the cone apart. It's still the attacker's turn and he still has nonbelt granted full-round action and the cone isn't there blocking AMF.
The saddest part is the above isn't even ToB exclusive. As if to add insult to injury the retarded Fighter can pull it off, no flashy maneuvers needed unless you want overkill.
-
The attacker's belt counters Celerity
no it doesn't. its a swift action to activate, those can only be taken on your turn.
also, on your issue with contingencies: they have more than one thanks to craft contingency spell.
Though, maybe an Arcane Archer could pull this off in core only... when the wizard lacks both celerity and more than one contingency.
EDIT: i'm bored, so i'll punch some holes in your COP argument.
Basically, and please correct me if i'm wrong, your argument goes like this:
COP-tech is dependent on the deity answering the questions.
you then list a multitude of reasons why the deity would refrain from answering. Actually, pretty good reason.
however: in the COP table, the columns say:
true answer, dont know, lie, random answer.
and then in the notes:
You get an true, one-word answer.
Nowhere does it state that the deity has the option of turning the casters question down(though maybe this is what is covered in the random roll. anyways), or that it gets a save, or ANYTHING. it just says: you get a true, one-word answer.
-
Perhaps we are approaching this the wrong way around?
A look at the one of the crazy TO threads on the WotC forums about killing gods could be a good way.
Say, if we had an infinite action loop. An arbitrarily large number of linked Synchronicities could do it. (say, Synchronicity + link power + Font of Power, which doesn't require a full-manifester progression)
Since the synchronicities can be taken at any time, they can be used to trump Celerity, and virtually any effect. (including but not limited to the AMF hat)
Buy a Contact Other Plane to ask how many you need and get two orders of magnitude more.
Contingent Teleport doesn't work since you have more than enough actions to track the wizard down again, in the space of immediate actions.
Could someone find a way to make this work without the use of a manifesting class? Psychic Chirugery + some recharge mechanism could do it I think.
-
But this just brings us back to the issue of using casters to defeat casters (of manifesters in this case). There is no real way of getting that infinite action loop without manifesting or abuse of the magic item rules.
-
How about this: maxxing arrow range fully out(this can get huge). your cohort has maximized arrow damage instead(but he still has Arcane archer with AMF).
You ready an action to fire if the mage pops celerity. your cohort fires, mage pops celerity. before celerity, however, your arrow is fired and makes AMF go boom on him.
Of course, he just uses invoke magic for this.
BUT your diplomacied/charmed/whatever buddy happens to have a readied action to go off whenever any spell that is not celerity is cast by the mage. he uses his celerity to cast, say, teleport, but just gets an arrow up his arse. and water lava contact poison acid last three.
-
Yeah, using multiple readied actions is the way to beat the wizard, I think. So one arcane archer with Body Outside of Body or something could do it. Or three guys with custom antimagic field arrows (or other items, if they can get close enough to the wizard to activate them).
-
Foresight: "Hey wizard, you're about to get stuck with an arrow. Some dude already fired it and impact is imminent."
I'm sorry, all I heard was "The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. therefor Powerful Build makes me large, it stacks with Monkey Grip". Have you read the rules following foresight where the mechanical bonus of the spell is the insight bonuses (an insight bonus improves performance of a given activity by granting the character an almost precognitive knowledge of what might occur) and that you are no longer flat-footed? There is no exact warning of the type of attack and whom does it from where nor does it grant a surprise round nor auto winning initiative nor anything else I can say you assume it does.
My bad.
I do tend to shout pretty loudly when I invoke verbal components, and my Draconic is a little shaky at times. I guess it probably sounded like "Monkey grip" but what I was actually saying was "Celerity + Time Stop".
Belt of Battle
<insert epic facepalm ASCII art>
Let's assume I believe your interpretation that let's a swift action somehow cancel out an immediate provided it is your initiative to act. (do you have a rules quote for that?)
When are you activating this Belt of Battle?
If you jump the wizard, you create a surprise round.
You don't have a swift action during your surprise round, only a standard. And you're probably using this to take your readied action to attack.
Or are you going to walk out in front of him and initiate combat and hope he's generous enough not to use Moment of Prescience so you can have the first attack?
-
Yeah, using multiple readied actions is the way to beat the wizard, I think. So one arcane archer with Body Outside of Body or something could do it. Or three guys with custom antimagic field arrows (or other items, if they can get close enough to the wizard to activate them).
even though there still is the issue with this requiring either three guys versus one, or body outside body(AkA high level spellcasting).
-
even though there still is the issue with this requiring either three guys versus one, or body outside body(AkA high level spellcasting).
Or the pherenic template for fusion.
-
Vecna blooded chageling Monk1/Totemist2(+?)/Occultslayer2/Barb1/Conjurer1/Warshaper3/FactotumX
Feats> Mageslayer, Sun School(Monk exclusive feat from Complete Warrior sucks balls for a straight monk, Totemists, Conjurer, and Sword Sage make it use able) , Intimidating Rage, Instantaneous Rage, Imperious Command. What ever is left should be extra inspiration points feat.
Needs to be able to do enough damage on a hit to disrupt a spell reliably.
I think is a decent way to start in an abstract.
Monk is for the flurry which is for Sun School.
Totemist is for a move action teleport at will.
Occult slayer does more damage on readied actions to disrupt a spell.
Warshaper is to make the wizard think a 5' step is safe.
Conjurer is to get and immediate action teleport.
Barb is for the 3 feats that make a one step worse than shaken rage instantaneously.
So ready an action to disrupt the next spell the target casts, and ready as many actions as you can for subsequent spell casting, move action DD next to the wizard, his attempts at Celerity should be disrupted by the readied action. Then when the wizards turn starts he takes a step back, but is still threatened due to reach, so he attempts to quicken Teleport, which is hopefully countered by the instantaneous intimidate or an extra readied action from Factotum, and then the wizard goes to celerity which gets stopped by the conjurer variant immediate action teleport+sun school.
Contingency teleport or something of the like is the only thing that this doesn't really have an answer for. Unless contingent spells can be interrupted by bashing.
I am assuming that the only thing that prevents multiple readied actions is the lack of multiple standard actions.
-
That looks pretty good lans. I made a similar build that relied on Sun School, Occult Slayer, and readied dimension door actions quite some time ago, but that was long before the factotum existed. I don't think it was possible to have multiple readied actions back then, and that surely amps up the effectiveness quite a bit. You're going to need some kind of Blindsight or something similar, to counter simple things like Mirror Image and Invisibility, but that's certainly attainable.
-
That looks pretty good lans. I made a similar build that relied on Sun School, Occult Slayer, and readied dimension door actions quite some time ago, but that was long before the factotum existed. I don't think it was possible to have multiple readied actions back then, and that surely amps up the effectiveness quite a bit. You're going to need some kind of Blindsight or something similar, to counter simple things like Mirror Image and Invisibility, but that's certainly attainable.
This sounds like a good time to use a Gem of True Seeing. If an encounter requires you to burn through all 30 minutes, I don't know how to help you. On the upside, the wizard is probably out of spells.
-
That looks pretty good lans. I made a similar build that relied on Sun School, Occult Slayer, and readied dimension door actions quite some time ago, but that was long before the factotum existed. I don't think it was possible to have multiple readied actions back then, and that surely amps up the effectiveness quite a bit. You're going to need some kind of Blindsight or something similar, to counter simple things like Mirror Image and Invisibility, but that's certainly attainable.
This sounds like a good time to use a Gem of True Seeing. If an encounter requires you to burn through all 30 minutes, I don't know how to help you. On the upside, the wizard is probably out of spells.
The bad thing about the gem is that it takes an action to activate it. If you're fighting high level casters, that's enough time for them to kill your whole party. :D
Hmm... if you're taking the whole Mage Slayer feat tree, doesn't one of them let you ignore stuff like this, though?
-
Their is a Mage Slayer feat that lets you dispel any illusions a Wizard has on their person, like blur or mirror image I think. It requires a successful hit but I don't think it specifies melee, maybe you could use an AoE spell to set it off?
-
Their is a Mage Slayer feat that lets you dispel any illusions a Wizard has on their person, like blur or mirror image I think. It requires a successful hit but I don't think it specifies melee, maybe you could use an AoE spell to set it off?
So in order to lower his effective 90+% miss chance, you need to hit him in the first place? I dunno...
-
Blind sense is 3ish feats, Shape Soulmeld:Shedu Crown, Open Least Chakra, and the one that makes telepathy blind sense. Which likely means flaws, selling ones immortal soul, and being devoted to an elder evil. Why does competence in so many non-casters require assistance from beings of pure Evil?
I'm thinking an intelligent item that can cast dimensional anchor or the like.
-
That looks pretty good lans. I made a similar build that relied on Sun School, Occult Slayer, and readied dimension door actions quite some time ago, but that was long before the factotum existed. I don't think it was possible to have multiple readied actions back then, and that surely amps up the effectiveness quite a bit. You're going to need some kind of Blindsight or something similar, to counter simple things like Mirror Image and Invisibility, but that's certainly attainable.
This sounds like a good time to use a Gem of True Seeing. If an encounter requires you to burn through all 30 minutes, I don't know how to help you. On the upside, the wizard is probably out of spells.
Would permanent arcane sight work?
-
That looks pretty good lans. I made a similar build that relied on Sun School, Occult Slayer, and readied dimension door actions quite some time ago, but that was long before the factotum existed. I don't think it was possible to have multiple readied actions back then, and that surely amps up the effectiveness quite a bit. You're going to need some kind of Blindsight or something similar, to counter simple things like Mirror Image and Invisibility, but that's certainly attainable.
This sounds like a good time to use a Gem of True Seeing. If an encounter requires you to burn through all 30 minutes, I don't know how to help you. On the upside, the wizard is probably out of spells.
Would permanent arcane sight work?
Better would just be a Permanancied Blindsight spell. Normally I would suggest a Blindfold of True Darkness, but if the mage is outside a 30ft radius, you're screwed. Using the permanancied spell lets you keep normal vision active which can be augmented with things like See Invisibility.
-
See Invisible is a legal target for Permanency. Is Blindsight?
-
I just looked up Pierce Magical Concealment (CArc.82). It just negates every source of magical mischance, magical concealment and mirror image. Including Invisibility, I don't think it lets you detect invisible creatures. It needs Con 13, Blindsight, Mage Slayer. I'm not sure it is what's right for this build, but I think it would work out well in play.
-
I just looked up Pierce Magical Concealment (CArc.82). It just negates every source of magical mischance, magical concealment and mirror image. Including Invisibility, I don't think it lets you detect invisible creatures. It needs Con 13, Blindsight, Mage Slayer. I'm not sure it is what's right for this build, but I think it would work out well in play.
Heh, one more reason Swiftblade is a bad ass, since IIRC isn't their miss chance Ex?
-
See Invisible is a legal target for Permanency. Is Blindsight?
According to Savage Species, yes.
-
Would permanent arcane sight work?
Better would just be a Permanancied Blindsight spell. Normally I would suggest a Blindfold of True Darkness, but if the mage is outside a 30ft radius, you're screwed. Using the permanancied spell lets you keep normal vision active which can be augmented with things like See Invisibility.
Why is blindsight better than arcane sight?
-
Would permanent arcane sight work?
Better would just be a Permanancied Blindsight spell. Normally I would suggest a Blindfold of True Darkness, but if the mage is outside a 30ft radius, you're screwed. Using the permanancied spell lets you keep normal vision active which can be augmented with things like See Invisibility.
Why is blindsight better than arcane sight?
Blindsight lets you know exactly where the mage is, not just what spell effects are in place. Since your aim is to hit the mage, the former is far more important.
-
Would permanent arcane sight work?
Better would just be a Permanancied Blindsight spell. Normally I would suggest a Blindfold of True Darkness, but if the mage is outside a 30ft radius, you're screwed. Using the permanancied spell lets you keep normal vision active which can be augmented with things like See Invisibility.
Why is blindsight better than arcane sight?
Blindsight lets you know exactly where the mage is, not just what spell effects are in place. Since your aim is to hit the mage, the former is far more important.
Technically Arcane Sight should do that, too, since you can see his active spell effects... I know some DMs might not interpret it that way, but I think RAW that's how it works.
-
1. no it doesn't. its a swift action to activate, those can only be taken on your turn.
2. also, on your issue with contingencies: they have more than one thanks to craft contingency spell.
3. Nowhere does it state that the deity has the option of turning the casters question down(though maybe this is what is covered in the random roll. anyways), or that it gets a save, or ANYTHING. it just says: you get a true, one-word answer.
1. Is the point. If it is your go, IE the timer Celerity is best to cast, it works. A belt can be used in response to celerity the same way celerity is used in response to you're attack on the wizard. It wouldn't work if the wizard was able of casting a second celerity unless you had multiple stacked belts for charges and your own recovery of swift actions. That should have been your focus the entire time instead of trying to argue an up hill battle.
2. My point was, and always has been. A stated out wizard does not have the luxury of changing his contingencies every time you the player get told off by other player before said telling off happens. Earlier in this thread I mentioned this and was linked to P's build which does not have a contingency in place. IE it lost against said tactic. To counter saying it can't lose it whole heartedly depends on COP to have the proper contingency in place.
It should also be noted that by hiring another caster anyone can COP-out to knowing the contingencies of any wizard anyway. The contingency was cast to counter mind the tactic that was decided after and based on the contingency. Tactic doesn't exist until the contingency.
3. Someone quoted something I completely skipped over until that post.
On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked by an act of certain deities or forces.
Define Rarely and note it doesn't matter which deity chooses to block it and there is a lot of gods running around.
One deity blocks a few questions once out of every wizard built from people reading this spams dozens of COP per week.
I rarely roll a 20 yet the odds say one out of every twenty rolls will be a 20.
nm, beat you to it. One series of spells of a single wizard of thousands he has cast before of thousands of other wizards in a once per life incident is pretty rare to me even without the die comparison.
-
Technically Arcane Sight should do that, too, since you can see his active spell effects... I know some DMs might not interpret it that way, but I think RAW that's how it works.
Thanks for posting this. I thought I had missed something big.
-
It should also be noted that by hiring another caster anyone can COP-out to knowing the contingencies of any wizard anyway. The contingency was cast to counter mind the tactic that was decided after and based on the contingency. Tactic doesn't exist until the contingency.
Which brings us right back to the problem of not being able to defeat casters without using magic ourselves.
3. Someone quoted something I completely skipped over until that post.l
On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked by an act of certain deities or forces.
Define Rarely and note it doesn't matter which deity chooses to block it and there is a lot of gods running around.
One deity blocks a few questions once out of every wizard built from people reading this spams dozens of COP per week.
I rarely roll a 20 yet the odds say one out of every twenty rolls will be a 20.
nm, beat you to it. One series of spells of a single wizard of thousands he has cast before of thousands of other wizards in a once per life incident is pretty rare to me even without the die comparison.
Valid point. I must have missed that, for which i apologize.
However, you say i should "note it doesn't matter which deity chooses to block"
it does say "certain deities or forces", which implies that only certain deities have the power to block this.
-
On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked by an act of certain deities or forces.
I understand "certain deities or forces." to mean a specific deity (or forces) may block requests on topics they wish to have blocked.
This sounds like fluff text that gives the DM and players and out for short circuiting adventures. I suggest 'Rarely' should be understood in this context. Not in the context of 20 identical COP in a row and all of them fail and saying, "Hey, that's not rare! Thats 20 times in a row."
So I guess in an epic conflict like 2 20th level characters, in which the gods are 'Net' neutral to the outcome, one should assume COP does not work in either favor.
-
I had something to suggest.
What about the Voidwraith from Libris Mortis pg. 131-132. If you get next to the caster then they cannot breath; slap on Lockdown and they're in trouble. So it would be something like:
Activate Belt of Battle -> Ready Action -> Fire AMF Arrow As Surprise -> Caster's Contingency/Surprise Defense (Tortoise) Triggers -> Your Readied Action Triggers to put yourself next to them; they cannot breathe. Now you have taken care of a *few* more options that they cannot use. I know that in the most technical of all senses, on a cursory glance, the inability to breathe does not explicitly state you cannot use Verbal component spells - however, the Voidwraith's ability states that you *must* hold your breath so if you are adjacent to them you don't have a choice. Can't hold your breath and speak in a clear voice simultaneously. How many Swift/Immediate cast spells don't have a verbal component? Not too many.
Food for thought.
EDIT:
LargePrime, I can't help but agree with you more. I don't believe that Contact Other Plane is a legitimate defense for casters because you do not have anywhere near a 100% chance for it to work the way it's being portrayed to work. Forget about involving 2 opposing parties both with COP - within the spell description itself it can fail on its own. Additionally, since there is no absolute game mechanic to determine whether the divination is blocked or not, how can you be *certain* it works the way you want it to? You cannot, therefore, it's kind of strange that so many of these TO, paranoid wizards rely on such a random and seemingly unpredictable "Defense".
I also always wonder why the "anti-mage" is not attacking the mage at the very same time the wizard's mind no longer occupies their body or has to recast their contingencies and so on. They've been casting COP for NI amount of time? Wouldn't that mean that on the day they get attacked successfully it would be because they rolled the dice and got the worst possible outcome for their COP?
I just don't see COP as being an impenetrable defense at all.
-
Look... the objections to Contact Other Plane are bullshit. I'm just going to call it like it is. Either you don't understand how we're talking about using it, or you're being dishonest.
The spell has a 90% chance of giving you a correct answer, and nothing says you can't use another divination to ask "Are the answers I got on my last Contact Other Plane reliable?" Hell, you could even cast the exact same damned spell again, and go ask a different deity the same questions. That would increase the success rate to 99%, and you could use a third single question divination to ask "Which of the two previously cast Contact Other Plane spells is reliable?", or some such crap. It isn't even hard to come up with an error checking system for this, so I'm going to assume that you didn't even try, or bother to read those that have already been spelled out in previous debates about this shit.
And as to "attacking the wizard while he's casting it..." he'd know you're coming, because of the last time he cast it. He doesn't wait till the predictions from the first one have "expired" before casting it again. He casts it again before he is vulnerable. So he always knows exactly when someone is going to attack him, and exactly how best to defend himself against their attacks and WTFPWN his attacker. If he gets an answer of "you'll be attacked when you next cast Contact Other Plane"... he'll just take some motherfucking precautions.
And here is a simple set of questions that I came up with in like 2 minutes for how a mage could figure out exactly who is going to attack him for the next week, and how to best stomp the crap out of them. I'm sure someone with freakin' godlike intelligence the likes of which the real world has never known could do a lot better...
[spoiler]1) What is the first name of the enemy that will be the biggest threat to me in the coming week? (Let's say the answer is Bob)
2) What is the last name of the enemy that will be the biggest threat to me in the coming week? (Let's say the answer is Smith)
3) What is Bob Smith's biggest vulnerability?
4) Which of Bob Smith's capabilities poses the biggest threat to me?
5) What is the best way to counter Bob Smith's biggest threat to me?
6) What day will I face Bob Smith on?
7-12) repeat 1-6 for the second biggest threat of the week.
Continue this line of questioning until no further threats are discovered.
Then ask things like "Other than the threats I've uncovered today using Contact Other Plane, are there any other defensive measures that will be critical to my survival this week?"
If answer is "yes", then "What is the most important of these defensive measures?" and "What day should I take this defensive measure on?" "At what time should I take this defensive measure?" (Repeat for 2nd most important defensive measure, and also for offensive measures)[/spoiler]
So... using this one spell, the wizard is always going to know exactly who is coming after him, and what spells to prepare and strategies to use to defeat them. The only way this ever fails to work, if the wizard is using some error checking divinations to make sure his Contact Other Plane spell gave him the correct results, is through divine intervention (also known as the DM being a dickhead).
The only way to beat Contact Other Plane is to use it yourself to counter the other guy's Contact Other Plane, and then things get complicated as hell.
-
The only way this ever fails to work, if the wizard is using some error checking divinations to make sure his Contact Other Plane spell gave him the correct results, is through divine intervention (also known as the DM being a dickhead).
I can think of numerous ways that a player could convince a god to protect themselves in such a manner.
I mean, we can keep this theoretical if you like but the moment you want to make it practical (you know, where we should be bringing this) than Contact Other Plane becomes weaker.
-
Look... the objections to Contact Other Plane are bullshit. I'm just going to call it like it is. Either you don't understand how we're talking about using it, or you're being dishonest.
The spell has a 90% chance of giving you a correct answer, and nothing says you can't use another divination to ask "Are the answers I got on my last Contact Other Plane reliable?" Hell, you could even cast the exact same damned spell again, and go ask a different deity the same questions. That would increase the success rate to 99%, and you could use a third single question divination to ask "Which of the two previously cast Contact Other Plane spells is reliable?", or some such crap. It isn't even hard to come up with an error checking system for this, so I'm going to assume that you didn't even try, or bother to read those that have already been spelled out in previous debates about this shit.
And as to "attacking the wizard while he's casting it..." he'd know you're coming, because of the last time he cast it. He doesn't wait till the predictions from the first one have "expired" before casting it again. He casts it again before he is vulnerable. So he always knows exactly when someone is going to attack him, and exactly how best to defend himself against their attacks and WTFPWN his attacker. If he gets an answer of "you'll be attacked when you next cast Contact Other Plane"... he'll just take some motherfucking precautions.
And here is a simple set of questions that I came up with in like 2 minutes for how a mage could figure out exactly who is going to attack him for the next week, and how to best stomp the crap out of them. I'm sure someone with freakin' godlike intelligence the likes of which the real world has never known could do a lot better...
[spoiler]1) What is the first name of the enemy that will be the biggest threat to me in the coming week? (Let's say the answer is Bob)
2) What is the last name of the enemy that will be the biggest threat to me in the coming week? (Let's say the answer is Smith)
3) What is Bob Smith's biggest vulnerability?
4) Which of Bob Smith's capabilities poses the biggest threat to me?
5) What is the best way to counter Bob Smith's biggest threat to me?
6) What day will I face Bob Smith on?
7-12) repeat 1-6 for the second biggest threat of the week.
Continue this line of questioning until no further threats are discovered.
Then ask things like "Other than the threats I've uncovered today using Contact Other Plane, are there any other defensive measures that will be critical to my survival this week?"
If answer is "yes", then "What is the most important of these defensive measures?" and "What day should I take this defensive measure on?" "At what time should I take this defensive measure?" (Repeat for 2nd most important defensive measure, and also for offensive measures)[/spoiler]
So... using this one spell, the wizard is always going to know exactly who is coming after him, and what spells to prepare and strategies to use to defeat them. The only way this ever fails to work, if the wizard is using some error checking divinations to make sure his Contact Other Plane spell gave him the correct results, is through divine intervention (also known as the DM being a dickhead).
The only way to beat Contact Other Plane is to use it yourself to counter the other guy's Contact Other Plane, and then things get complicated as hell.
+1.
I mean, isn't the whole point of a theoretical exercise in D&D to assume an arbitrary indifferent DM who doesn't care about what happens to his campaign world so long as all established rules are followed?
So isn't any discussion about things that could happen or require a judgement call or aren't explicitly spelled out irrelevant since the we already know the DM won't intervene one way or the other?
I want to see a dead caster as much as the next guy, but we at least have to stick to the parameters of the experiment, right?
On topic, if we've already established that multiple readied actions are the most surefire way of killing a wizard before he can kill you, what about methods for the lone character?
What's the second-most surefire way?
-
So... using this one spell, the wizard is always going to know exactly who is coming after him, and what spells to prepare and strategies to use to defeat them. The only way this ever fails to work, if the wizard is using some error checking divinations to make sure his Contact Other Plane spell gave him the correct results, is through divine intervention (also known as the DM being a dickhead).
Unless you get no response. That is a "Not error checkable" response. And no response is valid if you have 2, 20th level characters fighting it out. Either one we can assume has come to the attention of at least one deity of some sort, which may be wagering on the outcome and not allow each other to determine it outright.I mean, isn't the whole point of a theoretical exercise in D&D to assume an arbitrary indifferent DM who doesn't care about what happens to his campaign world so long as all established rules are followed?
An indifferent Dm should use the "On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked" clause and say COP gives a null response.
-
That is a "Not error checkable" response. And no response is valid if you have 2, 20th level characters fighting it out. An indifferent Dm should use the "On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked" clause and say COP gives a null response.
Why would this be the case? There is no clause in COP that states that the answers given cannot be verified with another deity. Assuming divine intervention for all questions between powerful entities in all cases renders the spell completely useless and there are no rules that state that is the case. That is just your interpretation of how interdeity conflict works (something not fully covered in the rules).
-
I think it is fair to use Miracle to block COP, but that's just my opinion.
None of the gods in D&D are omniscient, the ones that are most likely to be able to answer your questions are the ones with the portfolios of magic, battle and treachery/plotting. This is because gods get information a week prior if an action affects their portfolios. Is there anywhere you can go that the gods can't see you? If you say plane shifted from Greyhawk to Faerun then Boccob presumably wouldn't be able to keep tabs on you. You could dimension jump to the Dragonlance setting or any other where the gods are sleeping/not responding, if you took precautions then no one would know what you are doing.
Still, this unravels if you have to go back to Greyhawk to fight the Wizard, but maybe someone can take this idea and run with it.
-
Obviously this is all solved with liberal application of Iron Heart surge
Couldn't a Kaorti Warblade IHS away the entire material plane?
4) Which of Bob Smith's capabilities poses the biggest threat to me? Maneuver
5) What is the best way to counter Bob Smith's biggest threat to me? Spell
-
That is a "Not error checkable" response. And no response is valid if you have 2, 20th level characters fighting it out. An indifferent Dm should use the "On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked" clause and say COP gives a null response.
Why would this be the case? There is no clause in COP that states that the answers given cannot be verified with another deity.
But there is a clause that says "I have no response to that" is a valid response. And you cannot verify the truthfulness of a non answer.
-
I think it is fair to use Miracle to block COP, but that's just my opinion.
None of the gods in D&D are omniscient, the ones that are most likely to be able to answer your questions are the ones with the portfolios of magic, battle and treachery/plotting. This is because gods get information a week prior if an action affects their portfolios. Is there anywhere you can go that the gods can't see you? If you say plane shifted from Greyhawk to Faerun then Boccob presumably wouldn't be able to keep tabs on you. You could dimension jump to the Dragonlance setting or any other where the gods are sleeping/not responding, if you took precautions then no one would know what you are doing.
Still, this unravels if you have to go back to Greyhawk to fight the Wizard, but maybe someone can take this idea and run with it.
Well...I can roost on an unassailable Demiplane all I want as a Wizard. Literally, there is no "I might win" for Mr. Beatstick and his buddies Melee McFighterblade and Blasty McNukebig. Even if those two happen to be gods. Now, the hitch with "blocking" CoP isn't that you can't be ubersneaky and undetectable (though that's a whole new exercise in futility with a properly paranoid wizard), but that CoP has nothing to do with the being causing the threat in relation to preparing against it. It is entirely relative to the one asking, as such, the only two builds off the top of my head that are CoP "immune" would be Monty and his prey, Pun-pun. That said, NI or infinite capability to reiterate turns and/or rewind so to speak would render any advantage given by CoP moot. The question then is how do you pull it off without venturing into Monty/Pun-pun territory and without the Wizard catching on and frying your ass (and possibly your grandparent's ass via the wire hanger).
-
Well...I can roost on an unassailable Demiplane all I want as a Wizard.
Unassailable by who?
And if Mr. Beatstick forces you to retreat to another plane, that counts as a win for Mr. Beatstick in DnD terms, right?
-
Well...I can roost on an unassailable Demiplane all I want as a Wizard.
Unassailable by who?
And if Mr. Beatstick forces you to retreat to another plane, that counts as a win for Mr. Beatstick in DnD terms, right?
Unassailable by anyone, even greater deities. Closed planes ftw. And Mr. Beatstick has to deal with the army of Sims, quite possibly of himself for shits and giggles, all of my projected images, the AP's of the sims, and my AP if it (doubtfully) comes to that. And that's without getting off my ass or lifting a finger, letting my schism do all the work.
-
That is a "Not error checkable" response. And no response is valid if you have 2, 20th level characters fighting it out. An indifferent Dm should use the "On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked" clause and say COP gives a null response.
Why would this be the case? There is no clause in COP that states that the answers given cannot be verified with another deity.
But there is a clause that says "I have no response to that" is a valid response. And you cannot verify the truthfulness of a non answer.
Then you ask the next deity the same question to get a proper answer and error check that.
-
An infinite amount of binary questions directed to an omnipotent source with infinite time leads to infinite knowledge. Does anyone disagree with this? I hope not.
Now, we dissect that.
Infinite amount of questions. How many spells slots does the Wizard have? Not enough. Unless he's Tainted or has Infinite time to rest.
Binary questions. COP is even better. You can get specific. This is obviously fulfilled.
Omnipotent Source. Deities may not be, but the spell is.
Infinite Time. This is the hard one. Except it's not just kidding you have Genesis. While not infinite, you can effectively get there.
But.. but... but they can choose to not answer!
Whoopdy fucking doo. Ask again. Then again. You have an effectively infinite amount of questions and time.
-
Well...I can roost on an unassailable Demiplane all I want as a Wizard.
Unassailable by who?
And if Mr. Beatstick forces you to retreat to another plane, that counts as a win for Mr. Beatstick in DnD terms, right?
:lmao Ever heard of Astral Projection? Or Similacrum? Or Gate? Now what happens when you give all those to one guy that happens to live inside an "unassailable" demiplane, and be a genius with access to magic that can predict the future? Go read the "beating the caster" thread. The wizard can literally have similacrums of creatures far more powerful than he is, like Elder Titans with Epic spellcasting, at level 20, and he never has to leave his plane to utterly destroy his enemies.
I mean sure, we're getting into TO here, but where do you draw the line? The only limit on the power of the wizard is literally the DM and his house rules/fiat.
-
Well...I can roost on an unassailable Demiplane all I want as a Wizard.
Unassailable by who?
And if Mr. Beatstick forces you to retreat to another plane, that counts as a win for Mr. Beatstick in DnD terms, right?
:lmao Ever heard of Astral Projection? Or Similacrum? Or Gate? Now what happens when you give all those to one guy that happens to live inside an "unassailable" demiplane, and be a genius with access to magic that can predict the future? Go read the "beating the caster" thread. The wizard can literally have similacrums of creatures far more powerful than he is, like Elder Titans with Epic spellcasting, at level 20, and he never has to leave his plane to utterly destroy his enemies.
I mean sure, we're getting into TO here, but where do you draw the line? The only limit on the power of the wizard is literally the DM and his house rules/fiat.
My post above on the beating the caster thread was about the last one, given that it effectively ends the exercise, and even in core only.
-
Which brings us right back to the problem of not being able to defeat casters without using magic ourselves.
And when was that a real factor?
Wizard spends some resources (spell slots) and learns an answer (god's opinion).
Other spends some resources (gold) and learns an answer (god's opinion told to him by a dancing naked women).
If you wanted the other side not to look for spellcaster resources maybe you're wizard shouldn't be looking at gods for resources hmm?
***
I suggest 'Rarely' should be understood in this context. Not in the context of 20 identical COP in a row and all of them fail and saying, "Hey, that's not rare! Thats 20 times in a row."
Oh have we broken down to inserting our interpretations over each other now? Heres mine.
It is not question #4,589 from wizard "Bob of BG" being blocked thus asking more questions fixes stuff.
It is round #394,200,000 of wizard "Bob of BG"'s life being blocked thus no matter the number of questions asked about this 6 second period they all fail.
Deity Joe is talked into or feels the urge to block divinations, somethign he doesn't do often but like all things when he does he does it well and being used to being absolute law in the eyes of mortals and quite literately living in a 16 week section of time simultaneously, Joe doesn't even stop to ponder if small-as-a-bug wizard wants to define rarity a per question basis just becuase he thinks repeating the same exactly thing he died six seconds ago changes everything.
We know yours and theres will no FAQ published to answer who is right. Branching out for considerations, we do have the practicability to look at where COP falls on it's face when used like this. *shurgs*
***
Omnipotent Source. Deities may not be, but the spell is.
COP being used to perceive future events is based on a deity's ability to perceive the future and not the spell's effects.
True answer is defined as you get a true, one-word answer. Questions that cannot be answered in this way are answered randomly.
If the deity doesn't know, for any of the practical reasons I've covered, or just plain doesn't care to know it fails.
Branching out form there falls into TO material, like how you can graft an obscene amount of grafts that cannot realistically fit on your body for over a million attacks per round or sharing damage back and forth creates an infinite knowledge skill bonus to know everything about everything instantly and you're in the wrong subforum to be talking about stuff like that.
***
As for killing the Wizard's clones. I'd be willing to kill orphans for XP just as easy as I would stinky kobolds or imaginary wizards. XP is XP and I thank you for the perpetual XP source more than anything else.
-
COP being used to perceive future events is based on a deity's ability to perceive the future and not the spell's effects.
True answer is defined as you get a true, one-word answer. Questions that cannot be answered in this way are answered randomly.
If the deity doesn't know, for any of the practical reasons I've covered, or just plain doesn't care to know it fails.
It doesn't matter. You can ask again. Ask if the deity doesn't care, ask if he answered randomly. With a near infinite amount of questions, even a 99% failure rate doesn't matter. And Divine Oracle will cut the time spent down quite a bit.
And in response to the TO comment,
I mean sure, we're getting into TO here, but where do you draw the line? The only limit on the power of the wizard is literally the DM and his house rules/fiat.
-
Could the blocking issue SorO_Lost brings up of random deity blocking of COP (which I think it not well defined by the rules) be resolved by using COP to preemptively know when these blockages would occur and planning around that.
-
Could the blocking issue SorO_Lost brings up of random deity blocking of COP (which I think it not well defined by the rules) be resolved by using COP to preemptively know when these blockages would occur and planning around that.
No, because it's bullshit DM fiat. The only reason it is included in the spell description is because the authors seemingly had a sneaking suspicion of how stupidly overpowered the spell actually is, and put that in there as the equivalent of a specific "Rule 0", basically telling the DM that if he wants to, he can just override what the spell actually does and not hand over his notes to the wizard PC's player.
-
Could the blocking issue SorO_Lost brings up of random deity blocking of COP (which I think it not well defined by the rules) be resolved by using COP to preemptively know when these blockages would occur and planning around that.
No, because it's bullshit DM fiat. The only reason it is included in the spell description is because the author's seemingly had a sneaking suspicion of how stupidly overpowered the spell actually is, and put that in there as the equivalent of a specific "Rule 0", basically telling the DM that if he wants to, he can just override what the spell actually does and not hand over his notes to the wizard PC's player.
Which is also worked around as described above by asking a different entity. Hell, there's a guaranteed correct answer if you abuse Wish-generation, let alone keep one on tap as a readied action in the event something (however unlikely) unforeseen occurs.
-
Could the blocking issue SorO_Lost brings up of random deity blocking of COP (which I think it not well defined by the rules) be resolved by using COP to preemptively know when these blockages would occur and planning around that.
No, because it's bullshit DM fiat. The only reason it is included in the spell description is because the authors seemingly had a sneaking suspicion of how stupidly overpowered the spell actually is, and put that in there as the equivalent of a specific "Rule 0", basically telling the DM that if he wants to, he can just override what the spell actually does and not hand over his notes to the wizard PC's player.
I know that. SorO_Lost seemed to be describing the blockages as occurring completely randomly, which does not seem reasonable at all but I was attempting to think of a method of avoiding this. I agree that the DM fiat bit in COP should have no place in this discussion and that renders the wizard invincible.
-
Well...I can roost on an unassailable Demiplane all I want as a Wizard. Literally, there is no "I might win" for Mr. Beatstick and his buddies Melee McFighterblade and Blasty McNukebig. Even if those two happen to be gods. Now, the hitch with "blocking" CoP isn't that you can't be ubersneaky and undetectable (though that's a whole new exercise in futility with a properly paranoid wizard), but that CoP has nothing to do with the being causing the threat in relation to preparing against it. It is entirely relative to the one asking, as such, the only two builds off the top of my head that are CoP "immune" would be Monty and his prey, Pun-pun. That said, NI or infinite capability to reiterate turns and/or rewind so to speak would render any advantage given by CoP moot. The question then is how do you pull it off without venturing into Monty/Pun-pun territory and without the Wizard catching on and frying your ass (and possibly your grandparent's ass via the wire hanger).
No it does have something to do with the being causing the threat. If I'm chillin' on Faerun and plotting to go to Greyhawk for some assasination, the gods of Faerun know I'm plotting but the ones in Greyhawk don't. Boccob will know I'm coming a week before hand, but if my prey goes to a plane say in Dragonlance and I meet him there all his CoP questions will be for naught.
-
An infinite amount of binary questions directed to an omnipotent source with infinite time leads to infinite knowledge. Does anyone disagree with this? I hope not.
I do. The spell says that COP answers on a topic can be blocked by another diety or forces. Does not matter who you ask, answers are blocked on the topic. If answers are blocked on the topic then answers about the block can be blocked. Thus infinate questions all return nulls, not because what you contacted does not want to answer, but because they cannot.
I suggest 'Rarely' should be understood in this context. Not in the context of 20 identical COP in a row and all of them fail and saying, "Hey, that's not rare! Thats 20 times in a row."
Oh have we broken down to inserting our interpretations over each other now? Heres mine.
It is not question #4,589 from wizard "Bob of BG" being blocked thus asking more questions fixes stuff.
It is round #394,200,000 of wizard "Bob of BG"'s life being blocked thus no matter the number of questions asked about this 6 second period they all fail.
I think perhaps there is a miscommunication. I think we are agreeing, with different scopes. It's "Sorry Bob, all questions on this topic are blocked, cause some 'diety or forces' filed form BLOCKCOP101. I cannot answer any questions on this topic, and since I can't, I get to answer in ways that are going to take forever to debug, as I am bored and WAY smarter than you." Are we agreed?COP being used to perceive future events is based on a deity's ability to perceive the future and not the spell's effects.
True answer is defined as you get a true, one-word answer. Questions that cannot be answered in this way are answered randomly.
If the deity doesn't know, for any of the practical reasons I've covered, or just plain doesn't care to know it fails.
It doesn't matter. You can ask again. Ask if the deity doesn't care, ask if he answered randomly. With a near infinite amount of questions, even a 99% failure rate doesn't matter. And Divine Oracle will cut the time spent down quite a bit.
[sarcasm]Right, because one would never follow up with another form BLOCKCOP101 that states you many not talk about fight club.[/sarcasm]Could the blocking issue SorO_Lost brings up of random deity blocking of COP (which I think it not well defined by the rules) be resolved by using COP to preemptively know when these blockages would occur and planning around that.
No, because it's bullshit DM fiat. The only reason it is included in the spell description is because the authors seemingly had a sneaking suspicion of how stupidly overpowered the spell actually is, and put that in there as the equivalent of a specific "Rule 0", basically telling the DM that if he wants to, he can just override what the spell actually does and not hand over his notes to the wizard PC's player.
Thats right it is bullshit DM fiat. Its not like it is actually part of the spell description. And there is rule -1 that tells the DM that "wizards always win", so if there is a decision to be made, it always goes to the wizard. And if it is between two wizards, it goes to whoever is the wizardyist!
-
Thats right it is bullshit DM fiat. Its not like it is actually part of the spell description. And there is rule -1 that tells the DM that "wizards always win", so if there is a decision to be made, it always goes to the wizard. And if it is between two wizards, it goes to whoever is the wizardyist!
Yeah, it's a COPout. It's a way for the DM to just say "It doesn't work" whenever he wants, but the specific in-game reason given is because a deity intervened. So yeah, I think that is just a load of crap. I absolutely think it is bad DMing to have deities intervening to block spells, or interfere with the PCs at all, unless it is heavily related to the plot of the campaign somehow. It sounds like some bullshit Gygax would have pulled in a game he were DMing, right after he killed half the party because they pushed the giant, candy-like, red button, which meant instant death with no saving throws to a randomly chosen half of the party.
The fact that it is written into the spell description doesn't make it any less BS.
-
Thats right it is bullshit DM fiat. Its not like it is actually part of the spell description. And there is rule -1 that tells the DM that "wizards always win", so if there is a decision to be made, it always goes to the wizard. And if it is between two wizards, it goes to whoever is the wizardyist!
Yeah, it's a COPout. It's a way for the DM to just say "It doesn't work" whenever he wants, but the specific in-game reason given is because a deity intervened. So yeah, I think that is just a load of crap. I absolutely think it is bad DMing to have deities intervening to block spells, or interfere with the PCs at all, unless it is heavily related to the plot of the campaign somehow. It sounds like some bullshit Gygax would have pulled in a game he were DMing, right after he killed half the party because they pushed the giant, candy-like, red button, which meant instant death with no saving throws to a randomly chosen half of the party.
The fact that it is written into the spell description doesn't make it any less BS.
But how do you really feel? I think its BS value is directly related to its [ab]use. But in THIS case, we are talking about TWO PLAYERS. Thus it is valid to be pointing at. So much of CO is pointing at things smaller than this! And this is relatively useful in curbing the spells abuse. I honestly would have thought you would have been advocating using to to curb abuse of COP.
-
Who said we're talking about two players? And no, I don't think it is ok for the DM to invoke "deific intervention" to deal with a spell. If it is that problematic, just house rule it to fix it, or ban it. Saying a god blocked it is just being an asshole (unless the specific campaign involves the PCs directly or indirectly pitting themselves against a god, or a god would have a good reason for blocking their spell). A good DM doesn't deal with problematic spells by being a dick. He uses house rules to fix them, and tells the players up front about them.
Also, in hypothetical discussions like this, I don't think we should be invoking things that require DM whim to even work. The DM should be neutral, and shouldn't be making any kind of judgements about what is fair or not for this kind of thing.
If the would-be mage-killer uses a Miracle spell to block COP from revealing any information about them at all, I think that's fine. There's your deific intervention, per the spell description, and it doesn't require any whimsical decision from the DM/arbiter. I think Mind Blank should also block COP from learning information about the attacker specifically, but with clever questions you can get around that. However I think if you use a Miracle, you should be able to block even indirect questions. I'm fine with that. I'm just not fine with saying the DM is going to step in and mess with things just because he feels like it, especially in a hypothetical discussion like this.
-
I'm just not fine with saying the DM is going to step in and mess with things just because he feels like it, especially in a hypothetical discussion like this.
We should also remember some DMs are crazy. I've literally seen CoP abused in the most CharOp manner possible, so it can and does happen.
-
Who said we're talking about two players?
<SNIP>
I'm just not fine with saying the DM is going to step in and mess with things just because he feels like it, especially in a hypothetical discussion like this.
This hypothetical discussion involved two characters in 'competition' with each other, right? I thought of them as two players. And I thought it rather arbitrary to say one player wins with an unblockable COP when it is not that hard for the other player to block it. The DM should be a neutral arbitrator here, and not let the wizard win cause they are more wizardly. So I think again we are agreed on most everything,
Now in a GAME (OFF TOPIC) I am with you on the DMing stuff. I only add the group should have had a discussion about what type of game they want to play right around the time the player/DM was thinking about exploiting COP. In this thread was talking about the DM in the context of this thread.
-
Which brings us right back to the problem of not being able to defeat casters without using magic ourselves.
And when was that a real factor?
Wizard spends some resources (spell slots) and learns an answer (god's opinion).
Other spends some resources (gold) and learns an answer (god's opinion told to him by a dancing naked women).
If you wanted the other side not to look for spellcaster resources maybe you're wizard shouldn't be looking at gods for resources hmm?
...
It was a real factor since it mean this: you need spells to beat spells. if you have to use spells to defeat a spellcaster, then you've only proved that spells beat everything else.
-
I have to ask PhaedrusXY to tell me the cast time on COP and if he thinks the wizard is helpless while casting it. Seems like that would be about the best time to attack them.
-
Which brings us right back to the problem of not being able to defeat casters without using magic ourselves.
And when was that a real factor?
Wizard spends some resources (spell slots) and learns an answer (god's opinion).
Other spends some resources (gold) and learns an answer (god's opinion told to him by a dancing naked women).
If you wanted the other side not to look for spellcaster resources maybe you're wizard shouldn't be looking at gods for resources hmm?
...
It was a real factor since it mean this: you need spells to beat spells. if you have to use spells to defeat a spellcaster, then you've only proved that spells beat everything else.
What is the point here? So a non caster cannot use enchanted weapons, shields, or items? Did you read the OP?
-
I have to ask PhaedrusXY to tell me the cast time on COP and if he thinks the wizard is helpless while casting it. Seems like that would be about the best time to attack them.
Didn't we go over this already? He'd know you were going to do it. He doesn't have to wait till the information the last casting runs out before he casts it again. Hell, he can cast it every day if he wants, and each casting can look into the future for up to a week.
I also don't see anything that says he's helpless while casting it, and if he knows you're going to attack him while he's casting it, he can just buff the holy hell out of himself and summon all kinds of crap and THEN start casting COP. Or he could go somewhere that you can't get to, and cast it.
-
This is also not mentioning the TO abilities of a wizard, excluding Pun-pun. As in hi beatstick, meet my mythal. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to fuck your wife while you kill yourself on my prevalent powers and vanguard abilities. :D
-
I have to ask PhaedrusXY to tell me the cast time on COP and if he thinks the wizard is helpless while casting it. Seems like that would be about the best time to attack them.
Didn't we go over this already? He'd know you were going to do it. He doesn't have to wait till the information the last casting runs out before he casts it again. Hell, he can cast it every day if he wants, and each casting can look into the future for up to a week.
I also don't see anything that says he's helpless while casting it, and if he knows you're going to attack him while he's casting it, he can just buff the holy hell out of himself and summon all kinds of crap and THEN start casting COP. Or he could go somewhere that you can't get to, and cast it.
I was just curious how you interpreted the very first sentence of the spell. You know, the whole "You send your mind to another plane..." part. It's just fluff. But it does tell me your mindset. The spell only works the way you think it does and there is no other room to interpret it any other way. Fine with that.
You also don't seem to key off on the 10 minute casting time. Seems like an exploitable liability, especially if you're chain casting them. When did you start up the chain...at 9th level? So every single day since 9th level you cast COP 2+ times to be "sure" you would be ready? Just checking.
So COP often, multiple times. Aren't you going to eventually get hit with an Int/Cha decrease on a 1 due to that? Wouldn't that be the best time (you know, anytime up to or within 5 weeks) to attack said caster?
I must be missing something dramatic because a 1 on the Int/Cha decrease is basically instant win for the other guy. That is most likely the strategy of the anti-mage; hang out waiting for paranoid spell casters who fail their check. Go in while they can't cast arcane spells and hit them in the face with a rock. Win.
Swiss cheese.
TO wizards=lol
-
You can take ten on ability checks.
-
You can take ten on ability checks.
Exactly, which is one of the reasons the spell is so imbalanced, if they just put a rule in the spell saying that you cannot take 10 on the check the spell would be much less game breaking. But they did not so wizards have knowledge of all future dangers.
-
So, I'm failing to see how the wizard wins in any conventional sense. What you've been describing is a super powerful mage who has pulled himself away from the world into his invulnerable fortress of solitude guarded by his infinite guards and magical effects but you've yet to present any reason why he would ever be attacked. By making this character so isolated he's essentially closed himself off to any reason for attack. Why does the wizard ever leave his plane? Does he need to, it seems like he'd be pretty self-sufficient on his own.
DM: Alright, there's an almost omnipotent and omniscient wizard, guarded by impenetrable defenses on his own demiplane of terror and magical might.
Players: Okay, what has he done?
DM: Well nothing but he's really powerful so he could destroy the planes if he wanted!
Players: Well does he want to?
DM: Well no but...
Players: So than there's no really reason to go confront him?
Yeah, it's a COPout. It's a way for the DM to just say "It doesn't work" whenever he wants, but the specific in-game reason given is because a deity intervened. So yeah, I think that is just a load of crap. I absolutely think it is bad DMing to have deities intervening to block spells, or interfere with the PCs at all, unless it is heavily related to the plot of the campaign somehow. It sounds like some bullshit Gygax would have pulled in a game he were DMing, right after he killed half the party because they pushed the giant, candy-like, red button, which meant instant death with no saving throws to a randomly chosen half of the party.
The fact that it is written into the spell description doesn't make it any less BS.
So you're angry that within game a deity would block an ever-increasingly powerful wizard? I don't know any game, any game, where the DM wouldn't eventually stop the use of CoP (even in the manner as described above because hey, it's both a lot more flavorful than just banning it out right and can actually bring something into the plot) when confronted with a TO-wizard who spams CoP as much as possible. You may cite it as DM Fiat but that's exactly why it's there, to control the guy your presenting.
-
In a normal game it is perfectly reasonable and to prevent TO abuse of COP. But in this discussion we are having about how to defeat a wizard without a spell casting class you have to assume a DM that will use the rules presented and deal with character abilities in a neutral fashion. Causing one of the wizards spells to automatically fail because it is far to powerful and gamebreaking compared to his opponents, while understandable, is not neutral. When you have to bring in divine intervention to give the opposing character even a snowballs chance in the elemental plane of fire at winning something about this challenge needs to be reconsidered.
-
In a normal game it is perfectly reasonable and to prevent TO abuse of COP. But in this discussion we are having about how to defeat a wizard without a spell casting class you have to assume a DM that will use the rules presented and deal with character abilities in a neutral fashion. Causing one of the wizards spells to automatically fail because it is far to powerful and gamebreaking compared to his opponents, while understandable, is not neutral. When you have to bring in divine intervention to give the opposing character even a snowballs chance in the elemental plane of fire at winning something about this challenge needs to be reconsidered.
Yes, yes it does. The Wizard wins, end of discussion :)
-
In a normal game it is perfectly reasonable and to prevent TO abuse of COP. But in this discussion we are having about how to defeat a wizard without a spell casting class you have to assume a DM that will use the rules presented and deal with character abilities in a neutral fashion. Causing one of the wizards spells to automatically fail because it is far to powerful and gamebreaking compared to his opponents, while understandable, is not neutral. When you have to bring in divine intervention to give the opposing character even a snowballs chance in the elemental plane of fire at winning something about this challenge needs to be reconsidered.
Yes, yes it does. The kobold next door wins, end of discussion :)
fixed.
-
In a normal game it is perfectly reasonable and to prevent TO abuse of COP. But in this discussion we are having about how to defeat a wizard without a spell casting class you have to assume a DM that will use the rules presented and deal with character abilities in a neutral fashion. Causing one of the wizards spells to automatically fail because it is far to powerful and gamebreaking compared to his opponents, while understandable, is not neutral. When you have to bring in divine intervention to give the opposing character even a snowballs chance in the elemental plane of fire at winning something about this challenge needs to be reconsidered.
Yes, yes it does. The kobold next door wins, end of discussion :)
fixed, assuming the SCM doesn't stalemate him because he was lazy and waited til the SCM got his mythal up.
Fixed the fix :P
-
In a normal game it is perfectly reasonable and to prevent TO abuse of COP. But in this discussion we are having about how to defeat a wizard without a spell casting class you have to assume a DM that will use the rules presented and deal with character abilities in a neutral fashion. Causing one of the wizards spells to automatically fail because it is far to powerful and gamebreaking compared to his opponents, while understandable, is not neutral. When you have to bring in divine intervention to give the opposing character even a snowballs chance in the elemental plane of fire at winning something about this challenge needs to be reconsidered.
Yes, yes it does. The kobold next door wins, end of discussion :)
fixed, assuming the SCM doesn't stalemate him because he was lazy and waited til the SCM got his mythal up.
Fixed the fix, assuming the kobold has any reason no not instantly know of this rules exploit and stop it.
-
What if the non-caster sought and received the gift of a miracle or perhaps gained non-detection from a deity after performing some great challenge in their name?
-
That is still divine intervention and DM Fiat, unless you can find the pricing for divine intervention and pay for it out of your WBL there is no way to block COP by RAW. You might be able to pull it off with a sufficiently liberal interpretation of the Miracle spell and purchasing a casting of that but that is not strictly RAW.
-
What if the non-caster sought and received the gift of a miracle or perhaps gained non-detection from a deity after performing some great challenge in their name?
Considering they can get Miracle at 17th from a single feat, it would do them no more good than another caster not properly prepared using Miracle or Nondetection. And the real sticking point as stated before, is not "I wanna block your divination but I can't because nothing short of a fuckbag DM can do it!" but is in fact "No matter what divination or detection blocking I have, nothing prevents immunity to surprise, and as such, getting raped. And also nothing prevents the wizard from preparing a suite of -Immune-To-Everything- spells each day when he's high level, because it's just plain a good investment." This conundrum pretty well renders the conversation moot, even out of TO. Knowing that people want you dead and that you have the means to prevent it is perfectly within the realms of reasonable CO, and as it just so happens, that means immunity to beatsticks. And just about everything else, for that matter.
-
nothing prevents immunity to surprise, and as such, getting raped.
Divine oracle is a deceptively powerful Prc.
-
So, I'm failing to see how the wizard wins in any conventional sense. What you've been describing is a super powerful mage who has pulled himself away from the world into his invulnerable fortress of solitude guarded by his infinite guards and magical effects but you've yet to present any reason why he would ever be attacked. By making this character so isolated he's essentially closed himself off to any reason for attack. Why does the wizard ever leave his plane? Does he need to, it seems like he'd be pretty self-sufficient on his own.
DM: Alright, there's an almost omnipotent and omniscient wizard, guarded by impenetrable defenses on his own demiplane of terror and magical might.
Players: Okay, what has he done?
DM: Well nothing but he's really powerful so he could destroy the planes if he wanted!
Players: Well does he want to?
DM: Well no but...
Players: So than there's no really reason to go confront him?
It doesn't matter. The hypothetical situation is there is a mage, and a non-mage who wants to kill him. It doesn't matter why. If we don't go on that assumption, we have nothing to discuss.
Also, as I outlined before, the mage has plenty of ways to influence the world without actually physically leaving his demiplane. He can summon/call/create/permanently enslave powerful minions, and send them out into the world to do his bidding, or he can travel himself in the relative safety of an Astral Projection.
So you're angry that within game a deity would block an ever-increasingly powerful wizard? I don't know any game, any game, where the DM wouldn't eventually stop the use of CoP (even in the manner as described above because hey, it's both a lot more flavorful than just banning it out right and can actually bring something into the plot) when confronted with a TO-wizard who spams CoP as much as possible. You may cite it as DM Fiat but that's exactly why it's there, to control the guy your presenting.
I don't disagree with that at all. Of course the spell is fucking broken. That's the whole point of bringing it up all the time. The spell is so fucking broken that if you use it as written, the goddamned wizard is untouchable.
It's not the only one, either. It is one of the most powerful spells he has access to, but there are a crapton of ricockulously overpowered spells right there in the core books, and it only gets worse if you allow more sources. So if we're talking about "is there any way, within the actual RAW, for a non-caster to beat a paranoid wizard who uses combinations of the most powerful spells in the books in the most optimal way", the answer is "no, because his spells are way too fucking overpowered to ever actually get used in a game like that".
What angers me is when people say "Eh, wizards aren't that tough", and then every example they try to use to prove it involves them ignoring/nerfing the rules somehow, or relies on the DM limiting the wizard's spells in some way that isn't explicitly spelled out in the books*. You know what that means? You lost the fucking argument, and just can't admit it. Wizards are stupidly overpowered when played to the maximum of their capacity, and unless you houserule them or their players restrain themselves, non-casters have zero chance of ever taking one down, except in extremely rare exceptions (and even those can probably beaten by the wizard with enough cheese).
That was the entire premise behind the long, three-thread series on discussing, building, and then trying to take down powerful wizard builds. There were a few ideas that could certainly take down many wizards, and I think even one or two ways people came up with that might take on the most insane wizard. (Using the Breaching Obelisk to crash into his demiplane, and something else... I forget.) No one ever actually put up a build and said "Ok, that's it. Let's throw down", though. There are several wizard builds there. You can go look at their stats, and build your guy specifically to take them down. There is no wishy-washy TO changing the wizards abilities around to fit the new challenger. They'll be ran exactly as is. Go for it. I'd love to see someone succeed. No one has even tried yet.
*the rules don't tell you under what circumstances COP doesn't work, and so it is totally up to DM whim, which should be excluded in these kinds of arguments
-
I submit it is perfectly neutral for a DM to suggest that in this epic conflict the patron god of either side has filed form COPBLOCK101 for anything regarding this conflict.
-
I submit it is perfectly neutral for a DM to suggest that in this epic conflict the patron god of either side has filed form COPBLOCK101 for anything regarding this conflict.
No it's not. It's blatant favoritism. I don't understand how that's not dead obvious. There are no predefined conditions, or even hints, at when a deity might block that spell. It is entirely up to DM whim. And if the whims of the DM determine the outcome of something, it is unfair and biased.
I don't think you can even use COP to it's fullest when it is PC vs. PC, or even PC "anti-mage" vs. NPC mage, though. The spell might be (nearly) Omniscient, but the DM isn't. The spell actually exceeds the DMs capacity to metagame, unless it is a PC wizard using it to defend against NPCs. In that case, the DM can just decide ahead of time how the NPCs are going to act, and answer based on that. But he can't predict the actions of a PC attacking the mage ahead of time.
So really it needs to be NPC anti-mage vs. PC/NPC mage.
-
I'll volunteer any of my wizard builds for this exercise, and give the BG CO/TO community full rights to equip as desired. Hell, from the hip, here's one that can TBoS only better : Wizard 5/Incantatrix 5/Rainbow Servant 10. Congrats, autopersist on all the broken spells that the TBoS uses, and you get the full run of Holy Word spells, only with all the goodness that is buffable arcane CL. No save death/stun/daze with no chance of surprise, without even buffs, and one contingency says you eat it regardless at least once. Thanks for playing!
-
TO wizards=lol
Sigh. He's casting it inside his own demiplane. From an Astral Projection with Mythals and Planar Bindings galor. And you don't auto fail on 1s except for saving throws and attack rolls. and you can take 10 anyways.
I submit it is perfectly neutral for a DM to suggest that in this epic conflict the patron god of either side has filed form COPBLOCK101 for anything regarding this conflict.
If DM fiat counts as neutral then whatever, the wizard will still win. There are other divinations and plenty of other tricks.
-
I'll volunteer any of my wizard builds for this exercise, and give the BG CO/TO community full rights to equip as desired. Hell, from the hip, here's one that can TBoS only better : Wizard 5/Incantatrix 5/Rainbow Servant 10. Congrats, autopersist on all the broken spells that the TBoS uses, and you get the full run of Holy Word spells, only with all the goodness that is buffable arcane CL. No save death/stun/daze with no chance of surprise, without even buffs, and one contingency says you eat it regardless at least once. Thanks for playing!
In the original challenge, we actually restricted ourselves to either single classed wizards, or one that was a Wizard 10/Loremaster 10. They chose feats and spells and what-not outside the core, but we didn't want the actual prestige class abilities determining the outcome. It was supposed to be strictly based on the power of the wizard class itself, not potential wizard PrCs.
I also don't think any of them actually had Craft Contingent Spell, because if both the wizard and challenger have that shit, it gets intractably insane to try and figure that shit out, especially if they're both using Contact Other Plane to figure out each other's contingencies...
-
I submit it is perfectly neutral for a DM to suggest that in this epic conflict the patron god of either side has filed form COPBLOCK101 for anything regarding this conflict.
No it's not. It's blatant favoritism. I don't understand how that's not dead obvious. There are no predefined conditions, or even hints, at when a deity might block that spell.
There does not have to be. The non caster is assumed to have done what blockes the spell. It is not favoritism to assume THINGS have been done. Does the wizard have spell components? Of course! Did the non caster block COP? Of course!
It's not eve up to the DM! Just do what it takes to block it, like pray at a temple or cast the appropriate spell.
I don't think you can even use COP to it's fullest when it is PC vs. PC, or even PC "anti-mage" vs. NPC mage, though. The spell might be (nearly) Omniscient, but the DM isn't. The spell actually exceeds the DMs capacity to metagame, unless it is a PC wizard using it to defend against NPCs. In that case, the DM can just decide ahead of time how the NPCs are going to act, and answer based on that. But he can't predict the actions of a PC attacking the mage ahead of time.
So really it needs to be NPC anti-mage vs. PC/NPC mage.
So your assumptions are slanted to getting the most out of the wizards abilities, not the non casters? I see a little DM fiat BS right here.
I submit it is perfectly neutral for a DM to suggest that in this epic conflict the patron god of either side has filed form COPBLOCK101 for anything regarding this conflict.
If DM fiat counts as neutral then whatever, the wizard will still win. There are other divinations and plenty of other tricks.
If we are done with COP then we can move on. I don't think all agree though.
-
I'll volunteer any of my wizard builds for this exercise, and give the BG CO/TO community full rights to equip as desired. Hell, from the hip, here's one that can TBoS only better : Wizard 5/Incantatrix 5/Rainbow Servant 10. Congrats, autopersist on all the broken spells that the TBoS uses, and you get the full run of Holy Word spells, only with all the goodness that is buffable arcane CL. No save death/stun/daze with no chance of surprise, without even buffs, and one contingency says you eat it regardless at least once. Thanks for playing!
In the original challenge, we actually restricted ourselves to either single classed wizards, or one that was a Wizard 10/Loremaster 10. They chose feats and spells and what-not outside the core, but we didn't want the actual prestige class abilities determining the outcome. It was supposed to be strictly based on the power of the wizard class itself, not potential wizard PrCs.
I also don't think any of them actually had Craft Contingent Spell, because if both the wizard and challenger have that shit, it gets intractably insane to try and figure that shit out, especially if they're both using Contact Other Plane to figure out each other's contingencies...
Even at Wizard 20 or Wizard 10/Loremaster 10, you're looking at one contingency, a second from Planar Touchstone, and a third from that scroll phylactery. All XP free. And if you're always in Planetar form/Solar form, you've still got Holy Word. Hell, take Arcane Disciple and you've got it without shapeshifting cheese. The trick thusly still works. I only mentioned Rainbow Servant as a deliberate nerf from my usual choices of PrC, since if I want the Cleric list, I'll just turn into a Planetar and waste all it's slots.
And LargePrime, CoP works perfectly fine on a neutral playing field. As a noncaster, you can block it all of once, and all of one additional time for every 5,000 XP you're willing to burn or scroll you're willing to UMD. What does that cost again? Also, any wizard worth his salt will ask around that, and eventually catch on to the fact a petty puny mortal is attempting to play god, and promptly give him a lesson in divinity he won't soon have the option of forgetting (enter unpleasant fate worse than just death here).
-
There does not have to be. The non caster is assumed to have done what blockes the spell. It is not favoritism to assume THINGS have been done. Does the wizard have spell components? Of course! Did the non caster block COP? Of course!
How do you block COP without using DM fiat? If you can pray for divine intervention to block it with no expenditures of resources then the wizard can also pray to have it unblocked. If you can cast miracle to block it you are branching outside the stated powers of the spell leaving it up to DM arbitration and fiat what the limits are and if that avenue of optimization is open then the wizard can cast wish with a carefully worded contract to get even better results as he has all the time in the world and multiple geniuses to write the wish.
-
As a noncaster, you can block it all of once, and all of one additional time for every 5,000 XP you're willing to burn or scroll you're willing to UMD.
Why do you say it can only be blocked once?There does not have to be. The non caster is assumed to have done what blockes the spell. It is not favoritism to assume THINGS have been done. Does the wizard have spell components? Of course! Did the non caster block COP? Of course!
How do you block COP without using DM Fiat? If you can pray for divine intervention to block it with no expenditures of resources then the wizard can also pray to have it unblocked.
Where does COP say it can be unblocked?
-
Once from Planar Touchstone.
EDIT : Also, bear in mind the Wizard side is voluntarily taking a huge nerf in available PrC's. The PrC makes the melee unless you're an initiator, and given absolute free reign and all things being equal, this thread is even more an exercise in futility for the beatstick and even more entertaining for the wizard.
-
Once from Planar Touchstone.
As I read COP, once it is blocked, it is blocked. If somebody files the form, a block is in place and it will not matter how many times you ask about items covered by the form. And there is no known way to remove the block.
-
So your assumptions are slanted to getting the most out of the wizards abilities, not the non casters? I see a little DM fiat BS right here.
No, I'm saying that it is impossible to actually use the spell to its fullest potential if the guy attacking the mage is a PC. I'm not even saying that we shouldn't run it that way, and in fact the original challenge was set up so that the wizard was basically an NPC. He was statted fully ahead of time, and the attacker could actually know basically all of his tricks. You can still use the spell to devastating potential, just not to the same potential that an actual PC wizard could in a real game against NPCs. The spell is even more powerful in the hands of a PC than an NPC, without DM fiat/intervention.
If we are done with COP then we can move on. I don't think all agree though.
:lol Oh no, we are not dismissing it that easily. Every way that has been put forth so far to block it has involved either house rules or DM whim. As written, there is no way for a PC to guarantee that he can block it. Only the DM (in the form of gods) has that power. And PCs don't get to direct the powers of gods. So yeah, the only way to block COP is through DM bias. If you were a PC wizard and the DM invoked the power of the gods to block your powers just because he felt like it (not because you actually went out and did something to piss off a god), wouldn't you think it was a bit unfair?
So no, I submit that there is no way within the rules as written for you to block COP. It is not within the power of a PC to do so. That's the end of the story as far as I'm concerned.
-
Where does COP say it can be unblocked?
Where do the rules say that a character can call down divine intervention to block it in the first place?
-
Once from Planar Touchstone.
As I read COP, once it is blocked, it is blocked. If somebody files the form, a block is in place and it will not matter how many times you ask about items covered by the form. And there is no known way to remove the block.
And as I read it that's funny once. You called your favor (assuming the god in question responds, which is, gee, DM FIAT), and the spell was blocked (again, DM FIAT), but there's nothing stopping a reiteration, let alone another being under said wizard's control (like I dunno, his army of sims of himself) from also using CoP. Sorry Charlie, but any and all argument to prevent CoP fails in a neutral environment.
-
Sorry this is kind of old, but I felt it needed to be said...
I don't disagree with that at all. Of course the spell is fucking broken. That's the whole point of bringing it up all the time. The spell is so fucking broken that if you use it as written, the goddamned wizard is untouchable.
I have to disagree, at least if you use your so called "infallible" questioning method.
What is the first name of the enemy that will be the biggest threat to me in the coming week? (Let's say the answer is Bob)
2) What is the last name of the enemy that will be the biggest threat to me in the coming week? (Let's say the answer is Smith)
3) What is Bob Smith's biggest vulnerability?
4) Which of Bob Smith's capabilities poses the biggest threat to me?
5) What is the best way to counter Bob Smith's biggest threat to me?
6) What day will I face Bob Smith on?
7-12) repeat 1-6 for the second biggest threat of the week.
ok, so...
1. bob
2. smith
3. ...
Now this is where your logic becomes unraveled...you forget one thing, there are plenty of builds out there with no weaknesses. You know just as well as anyone else that you can easily utilize spells/whatever in such a way to make your wizard completely invulnerable, therefore (especially if you utilize spells) your biggest weakness is dispelling/disjunction...
WELL CONGRATULATIONS CAPTAIN OBVIOUS! You just discovered what every wizard should already know about their enemy wizards! Dispelling, Disjunction, Antimagic Field...all of these are obvious mage-killers. Its a universal weakness...However just because its a "weakness" doesn't mean they haven't prepared for it. Therefore, you can know that these are weaknesses and attempt to use them against bob smith but it doesn't mean you wont get past his contingencies and every other little thing he has used to prepare against such occurrences.
4. Most wizards have multiple different ways to destroy other casters so even if they understand the "biggest" threat and how to counter it they will most likely have others. Honestly, if you were to get an accurate reading (at least if bob smith was one of my casters) you would probably get an answer like "craft contingent spell" or "celerity" which essentially means that my wizards specialize in action metamanagement in order to lock you out of your actions, always staying one action ahead of you so when you are out of potential actions (contingencies, celerity and the like) I will use one of my many abilities (most likely some kind of antimagic field lock) to take you out. So it really doesn't matter what answer you get...
5. Again, even if you get an accurate answer such as "you must have more actions" it doesn't mean you can actually accomplish it...with vague questions such as the ones you are asking (or even specific ones) there's really no way of knowing exactly which actions he will take and how many/what his exact contingencies are without essentially metagaming.
6. What day!?! Surely you must be joking...this must be done to the SECOND!
I mean, you can come back at me in the style of a -I use x contingency to counter your y ability- argument, but that only means that I just beat your infallible wizard because you didn't have the foresight to mention things like second as well as day in the first place...sure, you can revise your 6 steps now, after I pointed all this out to you (like many contingency arguments...which we basically agreed in another thread were pointless), but it only serves to prove that no matter what you come up with there is still a way around it...come up with another 6 steps, ill find a way around it. After all, there are universal ways of taking out casters like antimagic locks which only contingencies and blocking methods can prevent. How do you use contact other plane to discover just how many of these your enemy will have to counter yours?
I guess my point is this...
When you are facing a wizard opponent that manipulates actions themselves the only thing you can do is to attempt to manipulate actions more. Since contact other plane can only make you aware that they are going to do it its up to you to be smarter than the other player/DM and hope to god you can manage your actions more effectively than them
I mean sure, we're getting into TO here, but where do you draw the line? The only limit on the power of the wizard is literally the DM and his house rules/fiat.
Here's another point I would like to make...
You're right, it is TO...but why is that playable? Once you get into TO the character no longer becomes playable in a campaign. If your wizard is sitting on a demiplane while other things do his dirty work then your character needs to be taken out of the campaign because he is no longer playable (unless its that kind of a campaign, in which case its really the DMs fault in the first place). in order to play in a dungeons and dragons game you have to play your character as part of some form of group, your character cannot just sit there in another plane...you're no longer playing it. You can say, "oh I'm playing his minions, therefore I'm playing him," but unless its that kind of campaign then why would your DM allow that kind of shit in the first place...no...in 99% of the D&D games out there you need to play your character in a party so these shenanigans are nigh impossible.
So once you get into the realm of TO its no longer worth talking about...its pun pun...it exists, that's all...good for you, you spent all this time on something you will never get to play. When I optimize I try to optimize with the premise that the character is able to exist in the party system. Now, I agree, even within the party system wizards are unbeatable, except by other wizards...you don't even need to use contact other plane and like you said, the other wizard can just use contact other plane as well which makes it needlessly complicated.
So it doesn't really take a DM fiat to beat a caster using it...the caster (as a PC) using it never existed in the first place because hes unplayable.
EDIT
I submit it is perfectly neutral for a DM to suggest that in this epic conflict the patron god of either side has filed form COPBLOCK101 for anything regarding this conflict.
No it's not. It's blatant favoritism. I don't understand how that's not dead obvious. There are no predefined conditions, or even hints, at when a deity might block that spell. It is entirely up to DM whim. And if the whims of the DM determine the outcome of something, it is unfair and biased.
I don't think you can even use COP to it's fullest when it is PC vs. PC, or even PC "anti-mage" vs. NPC mage, though. The spell might be (nearly) Omniscient, but the DM isn't. The spell actually exceeds the DMs capacity to metagame, unless it is a PC wizard using it to defend against NPCs. In that case, the DM can just decide ahead of time how the NPCs are going to act, and answer based on that. But he can't predict the actions of a PC attacking the mage ahead of time.
So really it needs to be NPC anti-mage vs. PC/NPC mage.
Ah, yes...didn't read this. We are basically in agreement on some of this then.
-
So your assumptions are slanted to getting the most out of the wizards abilities, not the non casters? I see a little DM fiat BS right here.
No, I'm saying that it is impossible to actually use the spell to its fullest potential if the guy attacking the mage is a PC. I'm not even saying that we shouldn't run it that way, and in fact the original challenge was set up so that the wizard was basically an NPC. He was statted fully ahead of time, and the attacker could actually know basically all of his tricks. You can still use the spell to devastating potential, just not to the same potential that an actual PC wizard could in a real game against NPCs. The spell is even more powerful in the hands of a PC than an NPC, without DM fiat/intervention.
So your assumptions are slanted to getting the most out of the wizards abilities, not the non casters? I see a little DM fiat BS right here.If we are done with COP then we can move on. I don't think all agree though.
:lol Oh no, we are not dismissing it that easily.
Ya I was being funnyEvery way that has been put forth so far to block it has involved either house rules or DM whim. As written, there is no way for a PC to guarantee that he can block it. Only the DM (in the form of gods) has that power.
Gonna put this with thisWhere do the rules say that a character can call down divine intervention to block it in the first place?
So you both agree there are no rules for unblocking, right? So now all we have to figure out what it takes for a player to exploit "On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked by an act of certain deities or forces." It is not as if the cost of such a block is high. Some have suggested Miracle. Perhaps a Gate to trade with a "force" that can file the paperwork. Winning a service from an serviceable entity. An assassination of said Wizard might be viewed favorably by the god of such an act. Have you no suggestions for what would be a fair price?
There are plenty of cases and builds where favors are assumed done. But just not for the "Not A Wizard"?
If PunPun is assumed to find what is needed can we not assume others can to?
-
I have to disagree, at least if you use your so called "infallible" questioning method.
What is the first name of the enemy that will be the biggest threat to me in the coming week? (Let's say the answer is Bob)
2) What is the last name of the enemy that will be the biggest threat to me in the coming week? (Let's say the answer is Smith)
3) What is Bob Smith's biggest vulnerability?
4) Which of Bob Smith's capabilities poses the biggest threat to me?
5) What is the best way to counter Bob Smith's biggest threat to me?
6) What day will I face Bob Smith on?
7-12) repeat 1-6 for the second biggest threat of the week.
I never even once claimed anything remotely close to that set of questions being infallible. In fact, I said I just came up with them in like 5 minutes off the top of my head, and that I was sure that a wizard with godlike (and even better than most D&D gods) intelligence could come up with a lot better questions. In fact, other posters have came up with MUCH more sophisticated questioning methods.
And the rest of your entire post is about wizard vs. wizard, which has nothing to do with the discussion going on here at all, or with the series of threads we are referring back to. So good job missing the whole point, and ranting about a tangent.
And I have seen few... I might go so far as to say no... builds that have no weaknesses at all. Care to post one?
-
You're not quoting properly, Mr. Hitler.
-
You're not quoting properly, Mr. Hitler.
Godwined, eh? ??? :lol
-
You're not quoting properly, Mr. Hitler.
Aaand here's our mandatory Godwin. All right folks, we can all go home now.
Unless you want to wait for a comparison involving an inverse relationship between roleplaying and optimization.
-
Once from Planar Touchstone.
As I read COP, once it is blocked, it is blocked. If somebody files the form, a block is in place and it will not matter how many times you ask about items covered by the form. And there is no known way to remove the block.
And as I read it that's funny once. You called your favor (assuming the god in question responds, which is, gee, DM FIAT), and the spell was blocked (again, DM FIAT), but there's nothing stopping a reiteration, let alone another being under said wizard's control (like I dunno, his army of sims of himself) from also using CoP. Sorry Charlie, but any and all argument to prevent CoP fails in a neutral environment.
I just do not see how the divination being blocked by a deity would only work once. If the Divination is blocked, it does not matter how many times you ask, its blocked. Nothing further can be learned about these future events.
Honestly you are saying the god does MEATSTICK a favor and blocks inquiry into the killing of the wizard, and it only works the first time the wizard asks? Gee slant toward the wizard much?
EDIT; Did not see the Godwin, so I leave this post for posterity.
-
I have to disagree, at least if you use your so called "infallible" questioning method.
What is the first name of the enemy that will be the biggest threat to me in the coming week? (Let's say the answer is Bob)
2) What is the last name of the enemy that will be the biggest threat to me in the coming week? (Let's say the answer is Smith)
3) What is Bob Smith's biggest vulnerability?
4) Which of Bob Smith's capabilities poses the biggest threat to me?
5) What is the best way to counter Bob Smith's biggest threat to me?
6) What day will I face Bob Smith on?
7-12) repeat 1-6 for the second biggest threat of the week.
I never even once claimed anything remotely close to that set of questions being infallible. In fact, I said I just came up with them in like 5 minutes off the top of my head, and that I was sure that a wizard with godlike (and even better than most D&D gods) intelligence could come up with a lot better questions. In fact, other posters have came up with MUCH more sophisticated questioning methods.
And the rest of your entire post is about wizard vs. wizard, which has nothing to do with the discussion going on here at all, or with the series of threads we are referring back to. So good job missing the whole point, and ranting about a tangent.
And I have seen few... I might go so far as to say no... builds that have no weaknesses at all. Care to post one?
My Warmage's come pretty damn close...:P As did the Iot7V I PM-ed as the Twice-Betrayer Slayer that used only material available when it was built. And honestly, if you'd really like, I can go ahead and take a couple days to craft up my mythal I keep mentioning on my TO SCM's, and I assure you, it will make JD's Crimson Veil look tame. Now I'm curious if it can be done, short of actually going Super Saiyan/Pun-pun and destroying the world. Like...in a cohesive manner that just might slip onto the table :P
LargePrime, that's how counteractions work. You countered the wizard's spell with divine intervention. Just so happens the wizard has several of them. Not one shred of RAW supports continuous blocking of anything.
And wtf is a Godwin?
-
And wtf is a Godwin?
Godwin's Law: As an internet discussion goes on, the probability that a comparison involving Hitler or National Socialism will be made approaches one.
So making such a comparison (or calling someone a nazi etc.) constitutes a 'Godwin'.
-
And wtf is a Godwin?
Godwin's Law: As an internet discussion goes on, the probability that a comparison involving Hitler or national socialism will be made approaches one.
ROFL isn't that any conversation with a remotely heated discussion, though?
-
Aaand here's our mandatory Godwin. All right folks, we can all go home now.
I like to think that I am providing a service.
Godwined, eh? ??? :lol
You know what you did. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7483.msg246316#msg246316)
-
So your assumptions are slanted to getting the most out of the wizards abilities, not the non casters? I see a little DM fiat BS right here.
No, I'm saying that it is impossible to actually use the spell to its fullest potential if the guy attacking the mage is a PC. I'm not even saying that we shouldn't run it that way, and in fact the original challenge was set up so that the wizard was basically an NPC. He was statted fully ahead of time, and the attacker could actually know basically all of his tricks. You can still use the spell to devastating potential, just not to the same potential that an actual PC wizard could in a real game against NPCs. The spell is even more powerful in the hands of a PC than an NPC, without DM fiat/intervention.
So your assumptions are slanted to getting the most out of the wizards abilities, not the non casters? I see a little DM fiat BS right here.If we are done with COP then we can move on. I don't think all agree though.
:lol Oh no, we are not dismissing it that easily.
Ya I was being funnyEvery way that has been put forth so far to block it has involved either house rules or DM whim. As written, there is no way for a PC to guarantee that he can block it. Only the DM (in the form of gods) has that power.
Gonna put this with thisWhere do the rules say that a character can call down divine intervention to block it in the first place?
So you both agree there are no rules for unblocking, right? So now all we have to figure out what it takes for a player to exploit "On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked by an act of certain deities or forces." It is not as if the cost of such a block is high. Some have suggested Miracle. Perhaps a Gate to trade with a "force" that can file the paperwork. Winning a service from an serviceable entity. An assassination of said Wizard might be viewed favorably by the god of such an act. Have you no suggestions for what would be a fair price?
There are plenty of cases and builds where favors are assumed done. But just not for the "Not A Wizard"?
If PunPun is assumed to find what is needed can we not assume others can to?
because there is actually a statement that Pazuzu will come when you say his name and give you crap when you change your alignment. Nothing like that exists for gods in general.
-
So your assumptions are slanted to getting the most out of the wizards abilities, not the non casters? I see a little DM fiat BS right here.
No, I'm saying that it is impossible to actually use the spell to its fullest potential if the guy attacking the mage is a PC. I'm not even saying that we shouldn't run it that way, and in fact the original challenge was set up so that the wizard was basically an NPC. He was statted fully ahead of time, and the attacker could actually know basically all of his tricks. You can still use the spell to devastating potential, just not to the same potential that an actual PC wizard could in a real game against NPCs. The spell is even more powerful in the hands of a PC than an NPC, without DM fiat/intervention.
So your assumptions are slanted to getting the most out of the wizards abilities, not the non casters? I see a little DM fiat BS right here.
Dude... what are you even talking about? Are you even actually responding to what I've written, or just posting stuff that you feel like saying? The wizard in the earlier thread was being handled as an NPC, and the PC challenger gets to look at his character sheet ahead of time. How could that possibly be me being biased, or the DM being biased? If anything, we're deliberately hamstringing the wizard here, just to give the other guy a chance. So yeah... I guess we're biased... in favor of the anti-mage.
So now all we have to figure out what it takes for a player to exploit "On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked by an act of certain deities or forces." It is not as if the cost of such a block is high. Some have suggested Miracle. Perhaps a Gate to trade with a "force" that can file the paperwork. Winning a service from an serviceable entity. An assassination of said Wizard might be viewed favorably by the god of such an act. Have you no suggestions for what would be a fair price?
There are plenty of cases and builds where favors are assumed done. But just not for the "Not A Wizard"?
If PunPun is assumed to find what is needed can we not assume others can to?
The steps to become pun pun are explicitly following the rules as written. There is no guestimation, or leaps of logic, or DM whim involved. You can become Pun Pun by just using the rules exactly as they are written. (With the possible exception of the crap that lets you do it at first level, but that's not necessary at all. It just lets you do it earlier.)
What you're talking about is working things out via roleplaying that have nothing to do with the actual game mechanics. There is no mechanism laid out in the game mechanics that allows you to block COP. How COP works is explicitly laid out in the game mechanics, but the method of blocking it is not. So the only way to use it in a completely "sterile" fashion that does not involve individual DM whims is to just allow it to work as written.
In a real game, I'd have no problem at all if the PCs petitioned some god to block the divinations of the BBEG wizard, or vice versa, saying that an NPC who wants to assault the PC wizard had done the same. I wouldn't do that regularly, unless a main theme of the plot involved the PCs trying to thwart the machinations of a god, but I don't see anything wrong with doing it occasionally. It would be something entirely driven by the "plot", though, and not the game mechanics. There is a big difference when you're talking about hypothetical comparisons about the relative power of a given class. Those kinds of "plot devices" should never enter into the discussion, as they have no basis in the game mechanics at all, and hypothetical discussions are pretty much by definition about the game mechanics.
Wow... this thread is nuts. By the time I can type up a response, there have already been like 7 replies. Nothing like a "wizard vs. fighter" thread to rile everyone up. :lol Anyone else remember how many of these fuckers there were on 339? And I think all of them wound up getting locked, except Meyer's "Overpowered Casters" gauntlet. :lmao
-
And the rest of your entire post is about wizard vs. wizard, which has nothing to do with the discussion going on here at all, or with the series of threads we are referring back to. So good job missing the whole point, and ranting about a tangent.
And I have seen few... I might go so far as to say no... builds that have no weaknesses at all. Care to post one?
Actually, I got that, but since I saw others making W vs W posts I figured the topic changed; like so many of them tend to do. I mean, why even bother bringing up COP against non-casters...you don't even need it.
Ill post my sig later, as I said, I'm in graduate school, I don't have the time to work on his psi ref fixes right now. Even so, its pretty easy...extended veil of undeath and shapechange into a troll with both energy immunity spells on you...that pretty much covers everything...I'm sure there's a few holes but it can be easily rectified with a couple of other spells and items...so there you have it...immune to everything except dispel, disjunction, antimagic...easy (which can be accounted for with craft contingent spell, rod of absorbtion, spellblades, etc).
-
So you both agree there are no rules for unblocking, right? So now all we have to figure out what it takes for a player to exploit "On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked by an act of certain deities or forces." It is not as if the cost of such a block is high. Some have suggested Miracle. Perhaps a Gate to trade with a "force" that can file the paperwork. Winning a service from an serviceable entity. An assassination of said Wizard might be viewed favorably by the god of such an act. Have you no suggestions for what would be a fair price?
There are plenty of cases and builds where favors are assumed done. But just not for the "Not A Wizard"?
There are no rules for getting COP blocked without DM fiat that I know of and you have not given us a rules quote or location of one. There are no rules for blocking COP so we assume by RAW that it is not blocked. If you can supply a unambiguous method of blocking COP without requiring the DM to make something up or requires you to gain the favor of a god something might be made of this discussion but you have not done this. If you assume that you can trade for services with divine entities then the wizard has more to trade, in the form of amazing spells and effectively infinite resources, than your non caster does so he will win out in your conflict for divine favor. The wizard does not need in game favors or DM fiat to be invincible while your idea requires both to even have the smallest chance of success.
-
And the rest of your entire post is about wizard vs. wizard, which has nothing to do with the discussion going on here at all, or with the series of threads we are referring back to. So good job missing the whole point, and ranting about a tangent.
And I have seen few... I might go so far as to say no... builds that have no weaknesses at all. Care to post one?
Actually, I got that, but since I saw others making W vs W posts I figured the topic changed; like so many of them tend to do. I mean, why even bother bringing up COP against non-casters...you don't even need it.
Ill post my sig later, as I said, I'm in graduate school, I don't have the time to work on his psi ref fixes right now. Even so, its pretty easy...extended veil of undeath and shapechange into a troll with both energy immunity spells on you...that pretty much covers everything...I'm sure there's a few holes but it can be easily rectified with a couple of other spells and items...so there you have it...immune to everything except dispel, disjunction, antimagic...easy (which can be accounted for with craft contingent spell, rod of absorbtion, spellblades, etc).
major hole: hellfire/other shit that bypasses immunity.
-
I knew someone was going to say this...
hellfire is its own type...its not fire damage. Trolls are vulnerable to normal fire and acid only...energy immunity covers that. Hellfire or anything that would "bypass immunity" infact doesn't since it would be included in the plethora of things it regenerates against.
There's a difference between being immune to fire and hellfire still effecting you and being vulnerable to normal fire and hellfire effecting you since it declares it is not normal fire.
-
The wizard does not need in game favors or DM fiat to be invincible while your idea requires both to even have the smallest chance of success.
"You have no chance to survive make your time."
It's been fun guys. Gotta run for a bit. I look forward to seeing the 20 replies that pile up before I get back on here. :lol
-
hmm I can't finish reading before posting. Consider this current page unread.
Literally, there is no "I might win" for Mr. Beatstick and his buddies Melee McFighterblade and Blasty McNukebig.
Agreed. I'm only interested in drawing/not dying to reasonable, not too TO wizard power (genesis is fine but ice clones of epic gods isn't)
On the COP interpretations for non-answers: I'm not sure it matters. The wizard won't need protection from any non-casters any time soon. DnD is way too fargone to have an antimage actually hunt wizards. I'll settle for stopping him/allies from being demolished like everything else. I invited custom abilities into the scope to see what was the minimal amount of extra 'umph' needed to matter.
if you have to use spells to defeat a spellcaster, then you've only proved that spells beat everything else.
I'd like us to think outside the box and see what sort of abilities would be needed to make this not the case.
So, I'm failing to see how the wizard wins in any conventional sense.
Ug. I'm not interested. Follow the other similar lovely threads on that. I want this to be the end of them by saying: 'we made up this ability/abilities that, though they don't exist in 3.5, would allow a not full caster to atleast stand up to a full-caster. It's in the min/max forum because I want to know how far we have to go to get to that balancing point.
So if we're talking about "is there any way, within the actual RAW, for a non-caster to beat a paranoid wizard who uses combinations of the most powerful spells in the books in the most optimal way", the answer is "no, because his spells are way too fucking overpowered to ever actually get used in a game like that".
Yup, this is where the thread started. I'm interested in non-TO RAW, but with whatever custom abilities are deemed necessary by the boards.
edit: Nothing like a "wizard vs. fighter" thread to rile everyone up. :lol
:( I hoping more of a "how creative to we have to homebrew an ability to not die a horrible Wizard-filled death?" thread...
since I saw others making W vs W posts I figured the topic changed; like so many of them tend to do. I mean, why even bother bringing up COP against non-casters...you don't even need it.
Because by homebrewing abilities that are powerful enough, a wizard might actually need COP.
oh and noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo (W v homebrewed non-caster instead plz)
-
OK.... that's a LOT more interesting. /cracks knuckles.
Frank and K's Fighter is a decent start, particularly it's Foil ability. With multiple immediate actions per round, and the ability to disrupt any ability with them with a range of 60 feet as a touch attack, they can actually put the fear in most "normal" mages. No time to post more now, but looking through the Tomes I think we can probably put something together using their "house rules".
-
my homebrew feats that might help:
Beyond the eyes of the gods [General]
Prerequisite: No Divine spellcasting ability
A creature with this feat cannot be perceived in any way but the physical, divinations return no result when used to gain information about this character and other effects that allow would allow this creature to be percieved in any way other than physically looking at it fail. This includes the portfolio sense of gods though effects that reveal hidden objects such as see invisible and true seeing work normally.
Slice through deception [General]
Prerequisite: BAB 6+, no Arcane spellcasting ability
Attacks made by a character with this feat ignore all magical effects on the target that would make it harder to hit or damage them. This includes Shapechanging abilities
*May be taken as a fighter bonus feat
Eyes that pierce the veil [General]
Prerequisite: Slice through Deception
A character with this feat is treated as always being under the effect of True Seeing, This is an extrodinary ability.
Magical Anathema [General]
Prerequisite: Eyes that pierce the veil, Beyond the eyes of the gods, Sacred Vow
A character with this feat gains spell resistance equal to 20+ her HD from class levels, the abilities she gains from Sacred Vow are now Extraordinary and she suffers no penalty for breaking her vow. However a character with this feat cannot use any magical items of any kind, items in her possession are treated as though they were in an antimagic field.
-
Magical Anathema [General]
Prerequisite: Eyes that pierce the veil, Beyond the eyes of the gods, Sacred Vow
A character with this feat gains spell resistance equal to 20+ her HD from class levels, the abilities she gains from Sacred Vow are now Extraordinary and she suffers no penalty for breaking her vow. However a character with this feat cannot use any magical items of any kind, items in her possession are treated as though they were in an antimagic field.
Yeah because having SR 28 at level 8 is totally fair...
-
having spent 6 feats, given up all magic item use and all spellcasting?
-
having spent 6 feats, given up all magic item use and all spellcasting?
Indeed. Also:
a) That only includes class Hit Dice, so any LA or racial Hit Dice don't count towards the SR.
b) It is entirely possible to increase AC to the point where only a natural 20 can successfully hit a character, so why should spells be exempt from being blocked in a similar manner? Especially, I must reiterate, at the expense of many feats, magic item use (which practically necessitates Vow of Poverty as well just to try and regain some of your usefulness), and any spellcasting ability.
c) Assay Spell Resistance, Spell Vulnerability, [Greater] Spell Penetration, etcetera.
d) There are plenty of spells that won't even notice SR on their way to kick someone's ass.
-
Yeah...I get that but why not just go the extra feat and take vow of poverty...I mean, you already gave up all your magic items and took sacred vow...you might as well get all of the other VoP bonuses...among which DO NOT include SR, let alone the most powerful SR progression in the game.
You're not balancing this at all. You wanted it to be an obvious choice to take VoP which is why you included sacred vow (an exalted feat that has nothing to do with any of the others since they are neither holy in nature or exalted).
And its not even like you took 6 worthless feats to get it...I mean slice through deception...yeah ooookay, how about I just create the super ultra mega anti-caster cannon that kills mages in one hit no matter what protections they have up (not that a decent caster still wouldn't beat you). Usually in order to get a significant class or feat you take a bunch of useless ones in order to justify the balance, as is the case with the initiate of the seven fold veil.
This is why homebrew is pointless...people have no skill in balancing things and always have some sort of hidden agenda they try to sneak in there and hope no one notices.
-
This is why homebrew is pointless...people have no skill in balancing things and always have some sort of hidden agenda they try to sneak in there and hope no one notices.
Bah, that's a load of crap. Frank and K's stuff is quite good, as is a lot of other homebrew. Yeah, you have to be selective, but don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. It's not like standard D&D is the paragon of balance, anyway. You can't get much more broken than the core spells...
-
One of the quickest solutions IMO is making everyone readily aware of Knowledge Affiliation's capstone. Now mind you, chances are the wizard (a proper paranoid one at least) has this as well, but if you shut down his spellcasting, you buy yourself one virtual action. If you can kill him through all his layers of defensive magic in that one action (i.e. either him using an item to time stop, or teleport, or gate, or his contingency going off if it's not regular combat yet), you stand a sliver of a chance of possibly claiming a temporary victory.
-
One of the quickest solutions IMO is making everyone readily aware of Knowledge Affiliation's capstone. Now mind you, chances are the wizard (a proper paranoid one at least) has this as well, but if you shut down his spellcasting, you buy yourself one virtual action. If you can kill him through all his layers of defensive magic in that one action (i.e. either him using an item to time stop, or teleport, or gate, or his contingency going off if it's not regular combat yet), you stand a sliver of a chance of possibly claiming a temporary victory.
Contact Other Plane tells him you're going to shut down his spellcasting. So he uses a magic item instead of casting when you show up, or Gates a powerful outsider to kill you in your sleep the day before you attack. :P
If you can get around COP, then that might work, though. It is certainly a good start outside of house rules.
-
One of the quickest solutions IMO is making everyone readily aware of Knowledge Affiliation's capstone. Now mind you, chances are the wizard (a proper paranoid one at least) has this as well, but if you shut down his spellcasting, you buy yourself one virtual action. If you can kill him through all his layers of defensive magic in that one action (i.e. either him using an item to time stop, or teleport, or gate, or his contingency going off if it's not regular combat yet), you stand a sliver of a chance of possibly claiming a temporary victory.
Contact Other Plane tells him you're going to shut down his spellcasting. So he uses a magic item instead of casting when you show up, or Gates a powerful outsider to kill you in your sleep the day before you attack. :P
If you can get around COP, then that might work, though. It is certainly a good start outside of house rules.
Hence the last sentence. Let's put it this way...my mages in my UM thread would be so brazen as to let the attack after activating KA connect, only to prove once and for all that they are untouchable. And on the offchance Mr. Beatstick did actually achieve that 1 hit ko through the layers of defenses, one spell, one contingent spell, and one stored contingent spell later means he'll then be in for the surprise of his life as the last contingency before poofing to Revivify leaves a means of tracing him with scrying. Always better to take out the whole flock instead of one single bird :P
-
and, ifs, buts...
stop having these conversations...we should be well aware by now that anyone can beat anyone if they use the right character and are properly prepared; therefore, its pointless to have these back and forth banters about what your character would do to counter the other. The only thing that really matters is when it actually happens. In that case there are no and, ifs, or buts, you are either prepared or you aren't; you either make the correct choices or you don't...
-
it should also be obvious by this point that, if COP can just give you all the knowledge you want(which i believe it can), then a wizard who uses it extensively is unbeatable. simple as that.
we should concern us more with the matter of beating a caster without COP, or one who has only used it to know the fact that an attack is coming, not the details.
in this matter, i believe readied actions is the way. if we have enough(synchronicity yay), we can foil their celerity, their contigencies, everything.
-
and, ifs, buts...
stop having these conversations...we should be well aware by now that anyone can beat anyone if they use the right character and are properly prepared; therefore, its pointless to have these back and forth banters about what your character would do to counter the other. The only thing that really matters is when it actually happens. In that case there are no and, ifs, or buts, you are either prepared or you aren't; you either make the correct choices or you don't...
I don't see what this adds, if anything.
it should also be obvious by this point that, if COP can just give you all the knowledge you want(which i believe it can), then a wizard who uses it extensively is unbeatable. simple as that.
we should concern us more with the matter of beating a caster without COP, or one who has only used it to know the fact that an attack is coming, not the details.
in this matter, i believe readied actions is the way. if we have enough(synchronicity yay), we can foil their celerity, their contigencies, everything.
Wouldn't the wizard get false answers and not know it? And how is the ability score damage mitigated?
-
Take 10 on the check, you never take damage.
And phrase your questions such that you can ask questions about other questions.
If you want to get really in depth, start using a binary encoding. Your wizard is smarter than Knuth, Hawking, Einstein, and Telsa COMBINED, so it's completely in character.
-
And its not even like you took 6 worthless feats to get it...I mean slice through deception...yeah ooookay, how about I just create the super ultra mega anti-caster cannon that kills mages in one hit no matter what protections they have up (not that a decent caster still wouldn't beat you). Usually in order to get a significant class or feat you take a bunch of useless ones in order to justify the balance, as is the case with the initiate of the seven fold veil.
Now I'm not sure you intended it but that whole post was fairly insulting, however I felt the need to say the whole reason I came up with strong feats with low prerequisites is because the wizard does not need to take a load of useless class features to get strong ones. 9th level spells just win and insinuating that balance has anything to do with comparing casters and noncasters at the minute is stupid.
-
Littha:
Perhaps if you broke it down?
Eg.
Protection from Divination
- level 5: Non-detection, always on
- level 10: Mindblank (anti-divination part of it), always on
- level 15: as Mindblank but any divination will give a normal result as if you ceased to exist at the moment of the divination (so the caster doesn't know anything is wrong), will also notify you that you got "pinged"
Pierce Magical Concealment (from whereever that is) could progress to grant at level 10, True Seeing (Ex and deactivatable)
Pierce Magical Protection could progress from ignoring direct protection spells (eg. Mage Armour), to ignoring indirect magic (eg. Shapechange), to ignoring results of magical effects (walking through Wall of Stone)
- Perhaps this should be something you tack onto a Standard Action, so as to make it not totally broken (I full attack with full PA and ignore your magic armour! =/)
-
I know that they are nowhere near finished, they are just ideas it was more the tone of his post that got to me.
-
in this matter, i believe readied actions is the way. if we have enough(synchronicity yay), we can foil their celerity, their contigencies, everything.
Didn't I say this before...
Littha:
Perhaps if you broke it down?
Eg.
Protection from Divination
- level 5: Non-detection, always on
- level 10: Mindblank (anti-divination part of it), always on
- level 15: as Mindblank but any divination will give a normal result as if you ceased to exist at the moment of the divination (so the caster doesn't know anything is wrong), will also notify you that you got "pinged"
I don't know if this is your point but why don't you just errata mind blank to include protection from COP. Technically, the deity which provides answers must be using some form of divination to find out information on the target of the COP so shouldn't mind blank protect against that; I think protection from divinations in this manner is part of mind blank's intent. If that is the case then COP is no longer a problem because 90% of higher level mages should have this spell. Even if they don't someone will and thus the mage using COP for defense will come across a few enemies its not prepared for and most likely get killed by one of them.
Now I'm not sure you intended it but that whole post was fairly insulting, however I felt the need to say the whole reason I came up with strong feats with low prerequisites is because the wizard does not need to take a load of useless class features to get strong ones. 9th level spells just win and insinuating that balance has anything to do with comparing casters and noncasters at the minute is stupid.
If you are worried about 9th level spells then make the feats only available at higher levels. Being available before level 10 is too much. You also forget that ToB builds can take these feats making them even more powerful because they have semi-magical effects yet don't count as arcane or divine casters. It still causes ToB builds to be better than the average fighter. I would make them fighter only feats (as in the PHBII) and some of them only available at higher levels (which prevents multi-class dips). I would also put in a clause that a character with the vow of poverty feat cannot qualify for the last one, and vice versa.
One more thing...like the mage killer feat (or at least I think its that one) I would put a clause for the slice through deception that the enemy mage can always tell if a fighter that's attacking him has this feat.
-
You also forget that ToB builds can take these feats making them even more powerful because they have semi-magical effects yet don't count as arcane or divine casters. It still causes ToB builds to be better than the average fighter. I would make them fighter only feats (as in the PHBII) and some of them only available at higher levels (which prevents multi-class dips).
Um, no. The Tome of Battle is what makes ToB builds better than the average fighter. The average fighter is terrible. Making them fighter-only feats means that real combatants, such as those who never take more than two Fighter levels, don't get them. And then they don't solve anything.
-
Yes I understand that, you completely missed my point.
Allowing ToB builds to take these feats just makes it even more likely that no one will ever play a fighter. If you want to fix fighters then make them fighter only feats; making them more desirable as anti-mage builds. The goal is to make fighters better not ToB builds (some of which can already take out the occasional wizard).
Yes, I know no one was talking about fighters specifically, I just figured it would be a good idea to address the issue since it needs to be taken care of eventually. This seemed like a good opportunity to help out the fighter class.
Even if that's not the case my other points still stand.
-
Way besides the point. In any case, PF Fighter is very good in it's very limited niche. For as long as it lasts, anyway.
-
Admittedly I kinda half skipped the last 4(?) pages but...
...Anyone say further comments on the adamantine hat gets shattered in one move action thing? I mean I only took into consideration that the cone was a 1ft. thick so that left 3ft. space inside for the medium creature. I figured someone would remark they are tiny and the wall is 2ft thick or something and I might have to remark about just lifting/pushing the cone over or something.
...Any one said they roll perfect 20s/100s with their 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000ft pole of some kinda of inter planer reach to instantly pick the wizard's plane, to hit him, to roll a double critical and instant kill attack where as the wizard only rolls 1s all the time thus failed every COP question?
I mean, isn't the whole point of a theoretical exercise in D&D to assume an arbitrary indifferent DM who doesn't care about what happens to his campaign world so long as all established rules are followed?
Cus that is in the realms of TO.
I mean sure, we're getting into TO here, but where do you draw the line? The only limit on the power of the wizard is literally the DM and his house rules/fiat.
And a bunch of "wizards are invincible!" people sure think there isn't a line to draw.
...Anyone call captain obvious yet?
No one ever actually put up a build and said "Ok, that's it. Let's throw down", though. There are several wizard builds there. You can go look at their stats, and build your guy specifically to take them down. There is no wishy-washy TO changing the wizards abilities around to fit the new challenger. They'll be ran exactly as is. Go for it. I'd love to see someone succeed. No one has even tried yet.
Theres plenty of fighter builds that exploits a weakness in what at the time was the favored wizard's tactic in past threads. Google them and hope WotC didn't delete them all (they probably did). The response is the wizard gets changed and claimed to originally won becuase it wasn't stated out so it could have had that option. The one thread that did try to ended up front loading it with more in game stuff than it had spells prepared and you posted in it. I pointed out you only had one contingency and your tried to counter saying you had your hat (see above) and excluding COP crap it became "well I have craft contingency so I win" (posted by someone else though) ... Umm, no you don't. You never had it.
It's never and will never be about the noncaster side changing their stats/skills/feats/abilities. It's that damn unstated wizard and COP being the only excuse as you why you think you can get away with it. RAW wise a god can block it and there is no DM fait for that so I don't know where that idea came from of why it's being thrown about. In game, the thing that things like Genesis and building your fort take place, COP fails with a diplomacy check or simply hiring a spellcasting to COP 2 hours before battle to swap tactics thus ruining the wizard's 8 hour (or one week as some have mentioned) old foresight into the day. Imagine a day where the for wizard people have their character sheets they have used in a game before get posted on the forums, laughable indeed.
Honestly you are saying the god does MEATSTICK a favor and blocks inquiry into the killing of the wizard, and it only works the first time the wizard asks? Gee slant toward the wizard much?
I am SorO_Lost and I approve of this message.
-
^^COP can give correct answers regardless whether someone else casted a COP later or not.
IE. Will Bob use a sword to try to hit me later? Yes.
Then regardless of whether Bob uses a COP to change tactics or not, he will end up using a sword to try to hit you.
It predicts the future. If that doesn't come to pass, then it isn't giving the right answer.
Also, RAW, gods can block it. Also by RAW, there's no way to get a god to block it, short of diplomancy. (which you can do on the wizard regardless and win without all the trouble)
For drawing the line at TO/CO, I'd say that COP direct questions that Mindblank can block are CO. COP indirect questions that can't be blocked are definitely TO. (god or no god, it is possible to get around virtually any restriction with enough questions, since you can ask ANY question, including hypothetical observers and strange if-universes)
So, get your beatstick a mindblank up at all times, and you have COP immunity. CO-wise that is. TO-wise, nothing blocks COP, not even gods.
-
It predicts the future. If that doesn't come to pass, then it isn't giving the right answer.
Then by your own words COP cannot be used like this entire thread says it does. If COP reveals you die after casting Gate, you cannot do anything but cast Gate at that moment then will die afterwards and you cannot change as it.
You should have at least considered your argument before posting it. Trying to say the future is static and predestined is a 180 turn from using COP to reveal the future to prepare correctly for it and you should have known that.
Arguments for a predestined time line are one I'd rather not go into (see my favorite dirty trick) but if someone else were to they might an option as I don't think RAW says time works one way or the other.
-
It predicts the future. If that doesn't come to pass, then it isn't giving the right answer.
Then by your own words COP cannot be used like this entire thread says it does. If COP reveals you die after casting Gate, you cannot do anything but cast Gate at that moment then will die afterwards and you cannot change as it.
That's why you should never ask a question in a way that will make the answer definitely happen. Your preparation does not prevent what happens, rather it makes you surive it.
You should have at least considered your argument before posting it. Trying to say the future is static and predestined is a 180 turn from using COP to reveal the future to prepare correctly for it and you should have known that.
Arguments for a predestined time line are one I'd rather not go into (see my favorite dirty trick) but if someone else were to they might an option as I don't think RAW says time works one way or the other.
Well, IF you use COP to predict the future, then you have to make the future fixed for everything specific you asked about, or else a true answer wouldn't be true anymore.
-
SorO_Lost :
The way this works is basically that you can establish a protocol of action beforehand:
eg. Will the next attacker on my person be using magic or normal attacks?
If the answer is magic, I prepare Dispel Magic + Disjunction
If the answer is normal, I prepare Wind Wall + Prismatic Sphere
Then, when the situation arises, you can say, "I already knew it was going to be a physical attack from this COP question, thus I had Wind Wall prepared instead of Dispel Magic"
Instead of an actual in-game prediction, you just postpone it and allow the player to retcon actions in response to the information he should already have known.
Under this scheme, you can have BOTH perfectly accurate predictions and ability to change the future.
-
Littha:
Perhaps if you broke it down?
Exactly. Like with a new class. A homebrewed "Antimage" class ;)
And there ARE ways to beat COP, mainly by seeing to it that it isn't cast. Perhaps its time I shared my ideas...
Admittedly I kinda half skipped the last 4(?) pages but...
Noooo. Atleast read my posts. Or, Hell, I'll just include them in the OP so that way we stay on task. I don't mind the usual back and forth, but most of the COP stuff was only a tangent.
Okay fine, I added quotes of myself in the OP so people know the correct thread direction.
-
Usually I don't have problems with casters in my campaigns, mainly because my regular players know that if they try any super min-maxing I bring out my home brew of pain.
But yeah the only true way to Anti-caster is Either another caster (tested, one round can take an HOUR or 3) A deity (you know that god/gods you keep COPing? yeah they got tired of you) or home brew mechanics ("what do you mean my spell-casting is 'null-and-void'?!)
-
...Anyone call captain obvious yet?
Yes...actually I did lol. Not pertaining to the exact same thing but yes...
Also, I guess the point I was trying to make with COP is even if you do use it...
a.) (and Phaedrus said this as well) It can only give you as much information as the DM/Moderator knows, and since we are merely human and not omnipotent ourselves there's an inherent flaw in the amount of helpful info it can give you.
b.) It can give you all the correct information and you can still be beaten. You can be as prepared as you can possibly be and still come across another mage that is just stronger than you...period, there's just nothing you can do to defeat him...
-
Usually I don't have problems with casters in my campaigns, mainly because my regular players know that if they try any super min-maxing I bring out my home brew of pain.
But yeah the only true way to Anti-caster is Either another caster (tested, one round can take an HOUR or 3) A deity (you know that god/gods you keep COPing? yeah they got tired of you) or home brew mechanics ("what do you mean my spell-casting is 'null-and-void'?!)
Anything homebrew should be up to group consensus. Of course there can always be something stronger in the game than any given PC, but all the rules should be on the table. Making up stuff to screw people over isn't good GMing, it's smug control-freak GMing. Sorry to be blunt...
If you ever come across the situation that as a GM you can't beat one of the PCs in your game using the rules present, then either you throw the towel or ask the player politely (you don't have to be nice, but polite is necessary) to downgrade his PC.
-
a.) (and Phaedrus said this as well) It can only give you as much information as the DM/Moderator knows, and since we are merely human and not omnipotent ourselves there's an inherent flaw in the amount of helpful info it can give you.
Not true. See my suggestion about retconning.
The spell could allow the player to set up contingent decisions earlier that day dependent on answers. Mostly, it will be a different spell list dependent on the answers to the questions.
So when the answer finally becomes clear, the things that would have been affected get changed.
That way, the spell works as written and the player gets full use of it. It's insanely powerful that way of course, but if you can ask 10 specific questions about the future and get them answered, won't you be insanely powerful even without magic? Like, surprise round every combat yeah?
-
Yeah but your idea isn't RAW, its a variant way to handle COP.
With COP being as powerful as it is already do you really think anyone would try to improve upon it by adjudicating it in a manner not described in RAW? You would have to have one crazy DM (who's probably only doing it because it serves his interests more).
Anything homebrew should be up to group consensus. Of course there can always be something stronger in the game than any given PC, but all the rules should be on the table. Making up stuff to screw people over isn't good GMing, it's smug control-freak GMing. Sorry to be blunt...
If you ever come across the situation that as a GM you can't beat one of the PCs in your game using the rules present, then either you throw the towel or ask the player politely (you don't have to be nice, but polite is necessary) to downgrade his PC.
Wholeheartedly agree...I have been saying this for years. One DM in particular pulled this on me in the past, he kept changing the rules and making shit up mid battle just to suit him...he was the worst DM I ever met...He was just angry I knew the game better than he did. Most DMs I have met (although not as bad as the aforementioned) seem to have the mentality that they have to know the game better than me.
-
Admittedly I kinda half skipped the last 4(?) pages but...
Noooo. Atleast read my posts. Or, Hell, I'll just include them in the OP so that way we stay on task. I don't mind the usual back and forth, but most of the COP stuff was only a tangent.
Okay fine, I added quotes of myself in the OP so people know the correct thread direction.
Hey, I only half skipped them. Walls of text scare me :p
Current direction is house rules? Pfft.
I was predestined but then I argued [general]
Prerequisite: Must be willing to argue. A lot.
Benefit: Once per week immediately before fighting a spellcaster you may use COP to ask if you will lose. If he says no you win the fight no matter the actions spent and preparations taken it will happen as BG's char op says true answers come to pass no matter what. If he says yes then run away and you will be 100% successful becuase BG's char op also says changing the actions changes the outcome.
*cough* I mean.
Great Destiny [general]
You have a great destiny to fulfill.
Prerequisite: Be a player character.
Benefit: The gods fighting each other trying to get you to work for them and no deity is clear on your fate due to other divine influence attempting to alter your fate. Divinations and such effects (including remote sensing) cannot reveal anything related about you, your where abouts, plans, or equipment you are carrying. This effect also prevents other characters and creatures from using insight based bonuses against you.
Ride the Tide of Time [Spelltouched]
Do spelltouched feats even have flavor?
Prerequisite: Exposure to a wizard casting time stop or celerity like effects.
Benefit: Once per encounter when a magical effect that grants extra actions is cast that doesn't affect you, you immediately gain an the same action granted by the effect the spell or effect grants. You cannot take more than a full-round action this way. If the spell is Time Stop your full-round action takes place within the suspended time after the spell is cast, thus allowing you to effect the caster and after the full-round action you slip back into normal time. This feat cannot be triggered by nonmagical effects that grant additional actions such as a Sharn's multiple heads or spells that do not directly grant additional actions such as Schism.
FAQ (cus my intent overrules in misdirection my poor typing skills created)
[spoiler]Q: Does Great Destiny block COP from knowing your actions?
A: Partially, no deity knows about your future so they cannot provide true answers about what you will be doing (see COP's true answer). However if the contact in question personally knows about your past or present (mindful they could not have used remote sensing) they may reveal information they remember from rumors and past experiences with you.
Q: Can a character with Great Destiny get a surprise round against someone with Foresight? What about Cunning?
A: Yes, all divination effects do not work against the player, foresight cannot foretell the player's attack to properly warn the caster and also foresight's bonuses to AC do not apply to attacks made by the character as they are insight bonuses. And no, Great Destiny cannot prevent Cunning from having it's effect as Cunning is not a divination based effect.
Q: Does Ride the Tide of Time work if a Swiftblade casts Haste to gain extra actions?
A: No. Haste is an Ex effect when cast by a swiftblade thus nonmagical. Haste cast by others would grant an attack action allowing you to make a single attack that you could normally use within a full-attack action at the time of casting though.[/spoiler]
If you are lazy you could do feats for dimensional anchor, true seeing and rod of absorption effects rather than buying the items for it. Maybe even make up an anti-summoning effect for the wizards that admit to not being enough to do anything them selves but meh. I'm too lazy to do those, besides I kinda like the idea of simply running away after the wizard burns 5,000XP and in debts him self to an epic creature.
-
@SorO_Lost
The problem with making feats for true seeing, dimensional anchor etc is that they are a lot more powerful than any other feats a mundane character can take. I'm not opposed to that but a lot of people might be.
-
Admittedly I kinda half skipped the last 4(?) pages but...
Noooo. Atleast read my posts. Or, Hell, I'll just include them in the OP so that way we stay on task. I don't mind the usual back and forth, but most of the COP stuff was only a tangent.
Okay fine, I added quotes of myself in the OP so people know the correct thread direction.
Hey, I only half skipped them. Walls of text scare me :p
Current direction is house rules? Pfft.
I was predestined but then I argued [general]
Prerequisite: Must be willing to argue. A lot.
Benefit: Once per week immediately before fighting a spellcaster you may use COP to ask if you will lose. If he says no you win the fight no matter the actions spent and preparations taken it will happen as BG's char op says true answers come to pass no matter what. If he says yes then run away and you will be 100% successful becuase BG's char op also says changing the actions changes the outcome.
*cough* I mean.
Great Destiny [general]
You have a great destiny to fulfill.
Prerequisite: Be a player character.
Benefit: The gods fighting each other trying to get you to work for them and no deity is clear on your fate due to other divine influence attempting to alter your fate. Divinations and such effects (including remote sensing) cannot reveal anything related about you, your where abouts, plans, or equipment you are carrying. This effect also prevents other characters and creatures from using insight based bonuses against you.
Ride the Tide of Time [Spelltouched]
Do spelltouched feats even have flavor?
Prerequisite: Exposure to a wizard casting time stop or celerity like effects.
Benefit: Once per encounter when a magical effect that grants extra actions is cast that doesn't affect you, you immediately gain an the same action granted by the effect the spell or effect grants. You cannot take more than a full-round action this way. If the spell is Time Stop your full-round action takes place within the suspended time after the spell is cast, thus allowing you to effect the caster and after the full-round action you slip back into normal time. This feat cannot be triggered by nonmagical effects that grant additional actions such as a Sharn's multiple heads or spells that do not directly grant additional actions such as Schism.
FAQ (cus my intent overrules in misdirection my poor typing skills created)
[spoiler]Q: Does Great Destiny block COP from knowing your actions?
A: Partially, no deity knows about your future so they cannot provide true answers about what you will be doing (see COP's true answer). However if the contact in question personally knows about your past or present (mindful they could not have used remote sensing) they may reveal information they remember from rumors and past experiences with you.
Q: Can a character with Great Destiny get a surprise round against someone with Foresight? What about Cunning?
A: Yes, all divination effects do not work against the player, foresight cannot foretell the player's attack to properly warn the caster and also foresight's bonuses to AC do not apply to attacks made by the character as they are insight bonuses. And no, Great Destiny cannot prevent Cunning from having it's effect as Cunning is not a divination based effect.
Q: Does Ride the Tide of Time work if a Swiftblade casts Haste to gain extra actions?
A: No. Haste is an Ex effect when cast by a swiftblade thus nonmagical. Haste cast by others would grant an attack action allowing you to make a single attack that you could normally use within a full-attack action at the time of casting though.[/spoiler]
If you are lazy you could do feats for dimensional anchor, true seeing and rod of absorption effects rather than buying the items for it. Maybe even make up an anti-summoning effect for the wizards that admit to not being enough to do anything them selves but meh. I'm too lazy to do those, besides I kinda like the idea of simply running away after the wizard burns 5,000XP and in debts him self to an epic creature.
nice.
one thing: there should be a range limitation(or something) on Ride the Tides of Time. The definitions on what constitutes an encounter are kinda vague, so it could be argued to include stuff like a caster you spotted with your incredible spot check, casting celerity to attack someone else.
otherwise, those feats are probably the most necessary effects. dimensional anchor/true seeing/etc are not the Mage Hunter's main problem.
-
Taking Great destiny wil lresult in every diviner on the planet setting out to kill you. All their spells worked before, and now you're screwing them up.
-
Taking Great destiny wil lresult in every diviner on the planet setting out to kill you. All their spells worked before, and now you're screwing them up.
It's ok. The world decided COP is a forbidden spell and is currently burning all the remaining spellbooks that contain it and murdering wizards while they still can.
COP using wizards have become a boogyman story to scare little kids.
-
Well, any divination related effects. Augury? Not working anymore, thanks to the butterfly effect.
If nothing else, you've got the entire congregation of any deity devoted to fate out for your blood.
-
Well, any divination related effects. Augury? Not working anymore, thanks to the butterfly effect.
If nothing else, you've got the entire congregation of any deity devoted to fate out for your blood.
Eh, you're a PC. People are always out for your blood.
-
Well, any divination related effects. Augury? Not working anymore, thanks to the butterfly effect.
If nothing else, you've got the entire congregation of any deity devoted to fate out for your blood.
Nothing in the god blooded template says the world is after Vecna Blooded creatures and they are immune to divination spells including COP and by extension most insight bonuses against them as nearly every spell/power that grants insight bonuses are divination based.
Funny you didn't complain about that The_Mad_Linguist. Is it becuase it requires two levels of spellcasting thus it's "wizard only" so it won't raise a single objection out of you?
-
Well, any divination related effects. Augury? Not working anymore, thanks to the butterfly effect.
If nothing else, you've got the entire congregation of any deity devoted to fate out for your blood.
Nothing in the god blooded template says the world is after Vecna Blooded creatures and they are immune to divination spells including COP and by extension most insight bonuses against them as nearly every spell/power that grants insight bonuses are divination based.
Funny you didn't complain about that The_Mad_Linguist. Is it becuase it requires two levels of spellcasting thus it's "wizard only" so it won't raise a single objection out of you?
Or maybe it's because the text of that feat is far broader and more encompassing than the standard immunity to divination spells?
-
No, it's because it targets indirect things as well.
Let's say I cast augury. It doesn't care at all if there's a vecna-blooded creature around.
However, given that feat, it would be more like "well, it's entirely possible that this one guy will teleport in and kill you in the next round, so I'm giving a mixed result for everything."
-
Anything homebrew should be up to group consensus.
The boards is that group
Current direction is house rules? Pfft.
This is the original one too. I just let the COP discussion continue because I thought we would get to mindblank blocking + vecna blooded blocking it like in the last few threads.
The first parody is meh but I believe I have seen something like that third ability somewhere... an epic monster or maybe a web enhancement about a certain diety ability?
If you are lazy you could do feats for dimensional anchor, true seeing and rod of absorption effects rather than buying the items for it. Maybe even make up an anti-summoning effect for the wizards that admit to not being enough to do anything them selves but meh. I'm too lazy to do those, besides I kinda like the idea of simply running away after the wizard burns 5,000XP and in debts him self to an epic creature.
Also I'm not interested in homebrewing effects that magic items can already provide. I'm not sadistic enough to demand an antimage take VOP. :lol
it requires two levels of spellcasting thus it's "wizard only"
The vecna-blooded one? Eh a pure-classed antimage could get around that.
-
No, it's because it targets indirect things as well.
Let's say I cast augury. It doesn't care at all if there's a vecna-blooded creature around.
However, given that feat, it would be more like "well, it's entirely possible that this one guy will teleport in and kill you in the next round, so I'm giving a mixed result for everything."
Actually, by your own twisted example Vecna-blooded not only render that spell immune too but now they know enough to Scry and ambush you.
A Vecna-blooded creature gains immunity to all divinations cast against it or cast to learn anything about it. such Divinations fails to reveal any information. The Vecna-blooded creature immediately learns the name, appearance, and location of the caster who attempted the divination.
So I limited it to only your plans, your location, your equipment, and added a meant to as a catch all snag for direct info about you-yourself-and-I. Vecna-blooded blocks everything without regard, example Innkeeper Droolsspit has met the VB well now he is completely immune to Detect Thoughts as probing Drools mind could offer a clue that VB likes his eggs over easy.
Problem is you are not saying the feat needs to be reworded to work better. You started out complaining about it saying the world hates you die!. After Vecna already does that gets pointed out to you you run off on an extreme tangent corrupting intent to rant again despite yet again the more general coverage of VB already does worse. I at this point see you as doing nothing more than arguing to arguments sake. Please suggest what alterations should be done and come across as more than someone with their head stuck in the sand whining about how it's a rule that noncasters don't get nice things.
***
Also as I tried to grasp what Plz meant in his last post I found that interesting enough the Cloak of Mystery is kept even if you are no longer Vecna blooded. In a chain of events that sounds like I'm trying to chain more events together than JaronK's cl 40 hardened obdurium skeleton body trick: A Helm of Opposite Alignment to Necropolition to Evolved (for free spellcasting) to Vecna Blooded to Raise Dead to Helm Fixer-upper is a lengthy but possible tactic to net the cloak even as an LG Barbarian and you'll have +0 LA. A sadistic party member can even geas you into doing all of that completely guilt free so you can party it up with Herousnous in the after life. Its something worth throwing into the dirty trick handbook.
-
I'm syaying there's a massive difference between asking about bob and bob's plans.
The mere inabality to find out anything about bob's plans render any possibility of anyone else in the entire world knowing anything about the future null. Otherwise tehy'd be learning about bob's plans, even by default/
-
Wholeheartedly agree...I have been saying this for years. One DM in particular pulled this on me in the past, he kept changing the rules and making shit up mid battle just to suit him...he was the worst DM I ever met...He was just angry I knew the game better than he did. Most DMs I have met (although not as bad as the aforementioned) seem to have the mentality that they have to know the game better than me.
I always present the home-brew stuff at the beginning of the game, I tell the group that if someone starts min-maxing too much, or worse attempting a pun-pun, they get a few warnings before the home-brew stuff starts into the game. Min-maxing can be fun when it's appropriate. I've only had to pull out home-brew on a couple players who needed to learn that having fun in a game doesn't mean wrecking the game for everyone else. Everyone has their own view of fun, but in games like these you also have to consider who your playing with as well.
-
Wholeheartedly agree...I have been saying this for years. One DM in particular pulled this on me in the past, he kept changing the rules and making shit up mid battle just to suit him...he was the worst DM I ever met...He was just angry I knew the game better than he did. Most DMs I have met (although not as bad as the aforementioned) seem to have the mentality that they have to know the game better than me.
I always present the home-brew stuff at the beginning of the game, I tell the group that if someone starts min-maxing too much, or worse attempting a pun-pun, they get a few warnings before the home-brew stuff starts into the game. Min-maxing can be fun when it's appropriate. I've only had to pull out home-brew on a couple players who needed to learn that having fun in a game doesn't mean wrecking the game for everyone else. Everyone has their own view of fun, but in games like these you also have to consider who your playing with as well.
Then I apologize. If you're up-front about it and everyone agrees then it's perfectly fine.
-
Wholeheartedly agree...I have been saying this for years. One DM in particular pulled this on me in the past, he kept changing the rules and making shit up mid battle just to suit him...he was the worst DM I ever met...He was just angry I knew the game better than he did. Most DMs I have met (although not as bad as the aforementioned) seem to have the mentality that they have to know the game better than me.
I always present the home-brew stuff at the beginning of the game, I tell the group that if someone starts min-maxing too much, or worse attempting a pun-pun, they get a few warnings before the home-brew stuff starts into the game. Min-maxing can be fun when it's appropriate. I've only had to pull out home-brew on a couple players who needed to learn that having fun in a game doesn't mean wrecking the game for everyone else. Everyone has their own view of fun, but in games like these you also have to consider who your playing with as well.
So is this home-brew stuff monster only or something? What keeps the PCs from using it? Is it templates with huge level adjustments, or what?
-
There's a lot of precedent for NPC-only/Monster-only, etc., material in the books. As little as I like it, it's not unusual...
So I guess I can't entirely damn him for making stuff like that, too. HOWEVER, in MY book it has to be judged very carefully to be consistend with the game world. But then maybe I'm just a consistency freak.
-
There's a lot of precedent for NPC-only/Monster-only, etc., material in the books. As little as I like it, it's not unusual...
So I guess I can't entirely damn him for making stuff like that, too. HOWEVER, in MY book it has to be judged very carefully to be consistend with the game world. But then maybe I'm just a consistency freak.
Yeah, I'm just curious. The easy way to make it "NPC only" is to slap a huge cost to it somehow, like a +8 level adjustment, and/or that they're permanently enslaved to some other not-PC-appropriate creature (like voidmind and dragonspawn are supposed to be).
-
Yeah but your idea isn't RAW, its a variant way to handle COP.
With COP being as powerful as it is already do you really think anyone would try to improve upon it by adjudicating it in a manner not described in RAW? You would have to have one crazy DM (who's probably only doing it because it serves his interests more).
Actually, I would think that my interpretation is RAW. Since, by RAW, the answer IS correct, whether the DM can answer it at the moment is a metagame thing and isn't part of the equation.
So, if metagame constraints prevent RAW from being carried out, then a workaround to enforce how the spell works by RAW would apply.
In this case, I'm not saying that the character gets to retcon actions after the fact, the character would get to predefine two sets of actions based on a Yes or No answer and then play as if he took one set and retcon to the other set of actions if the answer indicates so. It's not like the character gains any new abilities, it's just the best approximation of a perfectly accurate future prediction.
EDIT:
For people implying that Vecna-Blooded or Mindblank can protect against COP... FYI, it can't protect against the more esoteric uses of COP.
Simply because COP can ask ANY question and get it answered. Direct questions against the character with divination immunity will fail. Hypothetical questions about imaginary universes will not. It's probably not something that will fly in a game though, unless your DM likes logic puzzles. (like me XD)
EDIT2:
Furthermore, Vecna-Blooded and/or Mindblank will not prevent the caster from telling there is some divination-blocking going on. Even in CO.
Questions like,
"Is there any information about threats that I will get in 24 hours of which I have not received information of in the last 1 hour?"
- If the divination immune character acts to do something involving you, then you will get information about him (if only that something attacked you)
- Said attack is not revealed by COP questions because that character is immune
- Thus, conditions set by the question is satisfied and it returns yes
- Further questions about when you will get the information can narrow down the time of the attack
Theoretical: you can technically probe for the information you will get in the future and it will only concern you and thus bypass all divination immunity. Just ask about things you will know in the future and poof.
- The answer, if true, but will "change" the future.
- If any other answer is given, the attacker will get to you, and thus you will know, making that answer false
- If the correct answer is given, you now know the information, making this self-fulfilling (and the attacker might/might not get to you)
-
- Said attack is not revealed by COP questions because that character is immune
- Thus, conditions set by the question is satisfied and it returns yes
The condition is satisfied. However the question still cannot return a yes: "Such divination [aka 'cast to learn information about it'] fails to reveal any information." Theoretical universes should fall under this category too. So no you can't get further questions about the time of the attack.
By the way (again) I'm not assuming an antimage would be stupid enough to hunt full casters. Its more like not dying from any. Therefore the questions about the full caster don't turn up anything:
[spoiler]Theoretical: you can technically probe for the information you will get in the future and it will only concern you and thus bypass all divination immunity. Just ask about things you will know in the future and poof.
[/spoiler]
-
- Said attack is not revealed by COP questions because that character is immune
- Thus, conditions set by the question is satisfied and it returns yes
The condition is satisfied. However the question still cannot return a yes: "Such divination [aka 'cast to learn information about it'] fails to reveal any information." Theoretical universes should fall under this category too. So no you can't get further questions about the time of the attack.
Yes, it can return a yes. To clarify, I meant said attack is not revealed by normal COP questions. This question doesn't concern the divination immune subject, all it concerns is you, the caster. It reveals no (direct) information about the divination immune target, only about the caster. Information about the divination immune target is deduced using logic from these indirect methods.
Theoretical universes are a hypothetical construct not concerning anything about the target in the real universe and is completely out of the scope of anything at all, making them able to answer any and all questions.
Since the parameters of the theoretical universes are set by you, you can "turn off" divination immunity at the specific point in time you are looking at.
"Hypothetically, what would the answer be to question (X) in a universe identical to our own except for (Y) change. "
- Where (Y) is "Contact Other Plane is not a divination effect", or "Divination immunity fails to operate at current point in time"
- (X) is whatever you want to ask about the target
If you want to get even more TO, you can ask, "According to X's algorithm of questions and parameters, what is the answer to Y question," where X is a published book of divination algorithms. Publish it yourself if you want to. At least you get somthing named after you.
By the way (again) I'm not assuming an antimage would be stupid enough to hunt full casters. Its more like not dying from any. Therefore the questions about the full caster don't turn up anything:
[spoiler]Theoretical: you can technically probe for the information you will get in the future and it will only concern you and thus bypass all divination immunity. Just ask about things you will know in the future and poof.
[/spoiler]
If I am going to attack someone, or doing anything to someone, it is highly unlikely that I will not know about it. (unless as part of some strange complex Xanathos Gambit)
-
Theoretical universes are a hypothetical construct not concerning anything about the target in the real universe and is completely out of the scope of anything at all
Exactly.
Hypothetical questions about theoretical worlds receive abstract answers of speculations. It is foolish to think of them as fact.
***
Can you beat an uber COP using wizard using nothing more than a trap finding rogue and the leadership feat? I can!
BoVD is all you need to beat a wizard.
[spoiler]Any 5th level+ evil creature in the game issue a dying curse, they don't even have to fight the wizard or die by his hand to issue the curse.
And thus the legion of Power Stoppers is born. All PS initiates and cohorts are LE and required to die and issue a dying curse. When the target wizard is captured and thrown into an antimagic cell controled by the PS and all his toys and plane is destroyed the initiate is True Resed (ending the curse) and becomes a full member. Cohorts are not so lucky but know what they are getting into and believe those nasty wizards should pay for whatever reason.
Trifling with a full member is most wizards would not dare do as curses from them cannot be removed by contingencies and always have a way of turning their would be geased allies in much of the same way they them selves are targeted. The more or less clever ones, the ones who use their 36 int instead of being dependent on COP, try to frame other wizards only to find out members are not above COPing them selves thus learning exactly who messed with the group.
When a typical ECL 17+ member is killed the following is a standard list of curses issued.
1: Int is reduced to 1. No more spells.
2: Con is reduced to 1. -5HP off a 1d4HD? Guess who has 20HP now...
3: Wis is reduced to 1. So retarded at this point you think you're normal.
4: Cha is reduced to 1. Good luck convincing anyone not to kill you.
5: Str is reduced to 1. Pretty sure your buckler at this point means you cannot move and you're too dumb/weak to unfasten it like a cat with it's head stuck in a jar.
6: Each turn, the subject has a 25% chance to act normally; otherwise, he takes no action. For the lolz.
7: 8 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, ability checks, and skill checks. Loss from abilities means your at -13 total.
8: All of the targets loved ones and allies suddenly despise him. Even your familiar hates you now, suck it.
9: The target cannot cast spells, use spell-like abilities, or activate spell completion or spell trigger items. Well, you never know.
10: Target is struck blind and deaf. It's on the lower level list and since it's not more powerful it's fair game.
Additionally the hated by 50% of all people met is normally employed by another initiate or the cohort in an attempt to ensure no one is willing to help the wizard end his problem while geased allies are also cursed into being unable to help. All curses are ended by the same requirements in which the cursers are waiting before their TR.
Can you beat a blind deaf man with no mental stats unable to act 75% of the time with only 20hp whom everyone hates? I can![/spoiler]
-
Technically you can't do that, since the wizard hasn't "wronged" you.
-
Technically you can't do that, since the wizard hasn't "wronged" you.
1. As an organization of people that feel is it wrong to amass so much power and to demand a god's attention it isn't that far of a stretch.
2. In the dirty trick thread I mention using Mind Rape, so they believe they were wronged. Though that is direct spellcasting powers there and may not work within the confines of this thread.
-
I don't think mind rape actually works for things like love's pain or death curses. Just because you're forced to believe something to be true doesn't mean it actually is.
-
Since the curses can't actually kill you, and that you, in using Mind Rape + Dying Curse, have established that precedent, the wizard can sit in his plane and use Mind Rape + Love's Pain to nuke all of you.
He'll suffer the curse yes, in the safety of his own demiplane. The entire operation is carried out by his own simulacrums / Ice Assassins / Mind Raped creatures. Which may well be as powerful as him. And he can have more of them than you have people.
-
no one thought of doing the deathcursing with psicrystals? for shame.
how low a level can you be and have a 17HD psicrystal?
-
the wizard can sit in his plane and use Mind Rape + Love's Pain to nuke all of you.
Unless they -for some reason- happen to be immune to mind affecting...cause that never happens at high levels.
-
I don't think mind rape actually works for things like love's pain or death curses. Just because you're forced to believe something to be true doesn't mean it actually is.
I think the issue here is if the individual has to have actually been wronged or only feel they have been wronged. This is the biggest issue because if not we can have individual's disguised as the all-mighty wizard and wronging dozens of would-be curse givers.
-
He'll suffer the curse yes, in the safety of his own demiplane. The entire operation is carried out by his own simulacrums / Ice Assassins / Mind Raped creatures. Which may well be as powerful as him. And he can have more of them than you have people.
Thats the cool part of it.
The mind raped creatures are allies thus turn on the wizard and try to kill him (or at least escape). It's a bad day when all your followers, cohorts, lovers, and pets turn on you and you cannot see or hear them creeping up for revenge or boredom.
Simulacrum: No special telepathic link exists, so command must be exercised in some other manner., the wizard is blind/deaf and has 1 int/wis. Does he even remember how to find his simulacrum, further self simulacrum's are half level and thus no shapechange/celerity or even planesshift for that matter. An easy fight for a 20th level character as gear worn alone is enough to win. Simulacrum of 40hd creatures are more problematic and you kinda have to relive on the poor flinging wizard to forget.
Ice Assassins depend on who but are also irrelevant at the same time. Long ago another wizard, member of the Power Stoppers created an Ice Assassin designed to kill all other Ice Assassins before they are created and they used Pun-Pun's toe nail. It takes one caster in the history of all time to do this and it screws over everyone for all times.
What's that leave?
Golems? Golems are problems for spellcasters. Even in core brutes ignore their DR and slice/bash them to death easy enough.
Undead? Everything lacking an int score is bypassed by a Shirt of Wraith Staking & everything with an int score is trying to feast on the wizard's brain.
Dominated minions? All weaklings, or with an item of magic circle against evil (or w/e) frees them long enough for them to either cast their own PoE or IHS away the problem anyway.
Geas'ed people? Probably the hardest, and the cheapest to acquire too. Probably have to issue curses to them.
Really, no wizard gains this much power as the club of Power Stoppers would have responded long, long ago so theres that to consider. They are like the assassins in that movie with Angelina Jolie, only at least half the members are allowing to see the source and no one can tweak it in their favor. PS is a non DM solution for everything and would make for a possible campaign hook as they could be hiring out adventurers to distract wizards.
-
I don't think mind rape actually works for things like love's pain or death curses. Just because you're forced to believe something to be true doesn't mean it actually is.
I think the issue here is if the individual has to have actually been wronged or only feel they have been wronged. This is the biggest issue because if not we can have individual's disguised as the all-mighty wizard and wronging dozens of would-be curse givers.
Not what I'm talking about...love's pain has the mind affecting descriptor, therefore, any time you try to use the excuse "my high level wizard kills yours because hes on another plane using mind rape/love's pain" you have to remember that if the defending wizard is immune to mind affecting it wont harm him. Honestly, as common as having that immunity is I'm surprised at the amount of attention mind rape/love's pain gets. Every single one of my high level characters is immune to mind affecting (and so should just about anyone), so I never feel threatened by that.
-
I don't think mind rape actually works for things like love's pain or death curses. Just because you're forced to believe something to be true doesn't mean it actually is.
I think the issue here is if the individual has to have actually been wronged or only feel they have been wronged. This is the biggest issue because if not we can have individual's disguised as the all-mighty wizard and wronging dozens of would-be curse givers.
Not what I'm talking about...love's pain has the mind affecting descriptor, therefore, any time you try to use the excuse "my high level wizard kills yours because hes on another plane using mind rape/love's pain" you have to remember that if the defending wizard is immune to mind affecting it wont harm him. Honestly, as common as having that immunity is I'm surprised at the amount of attention mind rape/love's pain gets. Every single one of my high level characters is immune to mind affecting (and so should just about anyone), so I never feel threatened by that.
Re-read Love's Pain again...
You aren't targeting the wizard, you are targeting the level 1 Commoner you just Mindraped to think that the wizard is his closest friend and/or dearest loved one.
The energy does not harm the subject. Instead, the subjects closest friend or dearest loved one is wracked with pain and takes 1d6 points of damage for every two caster levels (maximum 10d6). There is no limit to the distance between the caster and the loved one, and the loved one gets no saving throw or spell resistance.
The only way listed for you, the wizard, to avoid the effects of this is if you are in an antimagic field at the time.
...Unless of course you want to have your wizard go around giving every level 1 Commoner mind blank as well...
-
I AM SO FUCKING SICK OF THIS GOD DAMNED ARGUMENT!
First of all, It doesn't say "the only way" It merely states it as a clause.
Like this.
A fires a gun at B
B can avoid the bullet if he has C
there is nothing stating C is the only clause for avoiding the bullet, just that it is merely one of them.
SECONDLY...
The god damn spell carries the mind affecting descriptor...it doesn't matter who is targeted with the spell. ANYTHING that the spell accomplishes (direct damage or otherwise) will ADDITIONALLY carry the mind affecting descriptor! If it states somewhere in the spell that it is no longer mind affecting (as some spells will; i.e. "is no longer fire damage"...etc) when it affects the secondary target then fine. However, it does not state this. Thus, BY RAW, ANYTHING...let me repeat ANYTHING the spell accomplishes will additionally carry the mind affecting descriptor...there is no other way to see this...
I'm so sick of arguing this shit with people. You people don't even realize the illogical process you are using to justify your argument! I am merely stating how all spells operate by RAW and you are trying to argue that somehow the spell somehow loses its descriptor (inherent in almost every spell) for absolutely no reason! If you need more proof that a spell needs to specify in order to exclude clauses inherent within the original description then look at how love's pain specifies that the secondary target doesn't get a save or SR, something which the spell allows in the description.
Therefore, I submit to you this...If the damage to the secondary target was not to be mind affecting in nature it should have specified, just as it did with save and SR, that it is no longer mind affecting.
If the spell inflicts damage, direct or otherwise, the damage (unless otherwise specified) will carry any of the attributes of said spell. The damage isn't coming from nowhere, the SPELL is causing the damage, thus, the damage is mind affecting.
I don't know how many fucking times I need to repeat this before you people understand!
*Napoleon Dynamite* GOD!
-
Dungeons and Dragons, serious business...
-
It is!
I'm just so sick of repeating this over and over and over...its basically common sense, but since people like JaronK argue otherwise (cause its his baby) my arguments are overlooked.
Next person gets post 300!
-
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/41654/930177-bow_down_2_doctor_strange__hulk__super.jpg)
That's sort of what this thread feels like to me.
P.S. Post 300!!!
-
He'll suffer the curse yes, in the safety of his own demiplane. The entire operation is carried out by his own simulacrums / Ice Assassins / Mind Raped creatures. Which may well be as powerful as him. And he can have more of them than you have people.
Thats the cool part of it.
The mind raped creatures are allies thus turn on the wizard and try to kill him (or at least escape). It's a bad day when all your followers, cohorts, lovers, and pets turn on you and you cannot see or hear them creeping up for revenge or boredom.
Not if they're slaves. Then they have no choice, and are most definitely hostile (but unable to act on it) and thus not friends/allies.
Simulacrum: No special telepathic link exists, so command must be exercised in some other manner., the wizard is blind/deaf and has 1 int/wis. Does he even remember how to find his simulacrum, further self simulacrum's are half level and thus no shapechange/celerity or even planesshift for that matter. An easy fight for a 20th level character as gear worn alone is enough to win. Simulacrum of 40hd creatures are more problematic and you kinda have to relive on the poor flinging wizard to forget.
The simulacrums command themselves. You can simply tell them to listen to each other's commands and have them follow a meeting schedule. They have an int score IIRC.
Ice Assassins depend on who but are also irrelevant at the same time. Long ago another wizard, member of the Power Stoppers created an Ice Assassin designed to kill all other Ice Assassins before they are created and they used Pun-Pun's toe nail. It takes one caster in the history of all time to do this and it screws over everyone for all times.
DM fiat. Which might reasonably be pulled in the form of divine intervention if you clone a god. Not quite so much if you clone yourself. And order it to obey your committee.
Really, no wizard gains this much power as the club of Power Stoppers would have responded long, long ago so theres that to consider. They are like the assassins in that movie with Angelina Jolie, only at least half the members are allowing to see the source and no one can tweak it in their favor. PS is a non DM solution for everything and would make for a possible campaign hook as they could be hiring out adventurers to distract wizards.
Said club of power stoppers IS the target wizard. Since if there's no one else who can achieve said power, then said Power Stopper wizard is the default only one around who does anything.
*******************************
Point taken about Love's Pain -> mind affecting. Is it possible to use the dying curse for a "right back at you" revenge? And the wizard will have a larger army to do it with. Since he isn't limited by leadership.
-
dark_samuari, ironically, didn't Doc Strange _lose_?
(although, I would say it's due to DM Fiat, or rather plot contrivancy.)
-
dark_samuari, ironically, didn't Doc Strange _lose_?
(although, I would say it's due to DM Fiat, or rather plot contrivancy.)
Well, the hulk IS pretty DM fiat driven, since his power is directly linked to his anger(IE limitless).
Most climatic battles with the hulk goes a lot like this:
Enemy beats Hulk up good
Hulk goes angry at being beaten up
HULK SMASH ENEMY
-
Didn't the Beyonder once tell Dr. Strange that there was no upper limit to the Hulk's strength for that reason?
Anyway...
If you need more proof that a spell needs to specify in order to exclude clauses inherent within the original description then look at how love's pain specifies that the secondary target doesn't get a save or SR, something which the spell allows in the description.
Actually, the spell description doesn't allow a saving throw to the "primary" target (just SR). The existence of a "primary" target or a "secondary" target would indicate a primary/secondary effect. Which, explicitly, there is none. There is only "subject" and "subject's dearest loved one" suffering for what you are doing to the subject, NOT, to him.
As to why they'd need to make such a note regarding the subject's "loved one"? I'd say to make sure you don't somehow misunderstand what's happening here.
Now might be an idea to find something else to use a basis for that argument.
NERD RAGE!!!
Um, woah.
I'm sorry. Excuse me.
But... where exactly did you read that all spell effects and descriptors explicitly carry over to secondary whatnot?
Cause the player's handbook sure doesn't have a line like that when it talks about spell descriptions. Just how they interact with other spells and abilities.
In fact the only time they talk about secondary effects is with poisons.
Rules Compendium has an extra line, in that mind-affecting effects only work on creatures with intelligence 1 or higher.
So is this hard and fast claim of yours actually supported by something?
Cause, I mean... it seems like you're making up a bunch of BS right now because you hate to see people talk about abusing broken stuff in D&D.
Sure it makes sense, but it also makes sense to me that Mind Blank blocks detection from the Mindsight feat. Why? Well because Telepathy is mind-affecting obviously (the whole ability is based on detect thoughts). Lo and behold, in MM1, Telepathy in fact lacks the mind-affecting descriptor.
I mean shit, I still bitch when I see people say that a Hellbreaker is the only way to avoid Mindsight and ask how, and then argue that Mind Blank should work for exactly the same reason and get, "No it don't."
I mean if you want to argue it then, fine, go ahead, but at least cite some precedent (like other spells that offer a primary/secondary target in their descriptions that support your claim) other than "Duh!!! It's SOOO OBVIOUS!!!"
Like this:
If they bothered to take the time to spell out that this spell doesn't work if the loved one is an antimagic field, don't you think they would have taken the extra 9 or so character inches to mention "or immune to mind-affecting" also? If they are going to list conditions which are acceptable to stop the field wouldn't they bother to point out something that obvious?
So it's easy enough to conclude that it doesn't matter if you are immune to mind-affecting or not. Just that your target, y'know the subject of the spell, isn't.
-
1. I AM SO FUCKING SICK OF THIS GOD DAMNED ARGUMENT!
2. ANYTHING that the spell accomplishes (direct damage or otherwise) will ADDITIONALLY carry the mind affecting descriptor!
3. However, it does not state this.
4. The damage isn't coming from nowhere, the SPELL is causing the damage, thus, the damage is mind affecting.
1. I am sick of others but go ahead argue against their refusal to accept the books in front of them tomorrow. It makes the forums more active that way.
2A. An Searing Arcane Fusion doesn't increase the damage the Fireball spell cast though it does.
2B. A Blistering Anyspell doesn't help the prepared fireball bypass resistance.
2C. A Snowcast Energy Substituted(fire) Bite of the Wearbear don't change you're claw damage to be fire based.
3. Yeah and the rules does not state Rogues can take epic feats and the RoTD/Draconomicon/MM does not state kobolds are dragons. People still argue otherwise. See 1, becuase if it's not ego fueling them it's boredom.
4. Oh yes, spells always do damage inherited their descriptors. You know, like how I can cast a spell with the [Electricity] [Cold] descriptors and it deals Electricity & Sonic damage. You're 100% accurate!
-
That's a false analogy and you know it.
-
Which one? Lack of pointing it out there.
-
But... where exactly did you read that all spell effects and descriptors explicitly carry over to secondary whatnot?
And where did you read that they don't!?
You're obviously incapable of seeing the illogical argument you are presenting to me. I accept the RAW, I live by it. Until you can find a clause that says something about secondary effects of spells not being subject to the rules of the spell then stfu
I mean really, that's what you are trying to argue. I don't have to find anything that says all spell effects and descriptors carry over ITS APPARENT!!! Why shouldn't that be the automatic interpretation of the rules. What you are saying is that they don't carry over...and you cant even give me a good reason why...It carries over unless it specifically says it does not, just like EVERYTHING else in the rules! You are trying to make a specific case here and not even cite a good example while I am merely taking 99.9% of all the material out there and applying the same mechanics. Therefore, I don't have to cite any examples, but you do.
Don't make it seem like I'm ignorant of this debate, I have been at it much longer than you have and I am well aware of what love's pain does (I do have all the books).
If they bothered to take the time to spell out that this spell doesn't work if the loved one is an antimagic field, don't you think they would have taken the extra 9 or so character inches to mention "or immune to mind-affecting" also? If they are going to list conditions which are acceptable to stop the field wouldn't they bother to point out something that obvious?
So it's easy enough to conclude that it doesn't matter if you are immune to mind-affecting or not. Just that your target, y'know the subject of the spell, isn't.
Oh lord...why should they have to? Does every spell that has the mind affecting descriptor mention it? No, I believe (and this is just my opinion) that they felt it was necessary to mention anti-magic fields because of the clause stating it doesn't get a save or SR. Perhaps they felt like some would make an issue about anti-magic fields, so they took care of it preemptively.
That's a false analogy and you know it.
And I don't even acknowledge what he said because of it. I hope he was being sarcastic in an attempt to have me debate it (along with his feeble attempts to poke fun at my grammar...unless of course it wasn't, and he needs to work on his own :lmao), because otherwise he doesn't deserve to ever speak to me of logic again.
And for the record, I wasn't "raging" I was exclaiming...If I was actually "raging" do you really think I would have had the sense to make the napoleon dynamite joke? This is why I hate things like this, there's no way to convey sarcasm, or proper emotion.
-
Actually, upon reading Love's Pain and the d20srd.org bit on Spell Descriptions, I have to agree with SorO_Lost.
The Descriptor portion is most likely only applying to the target as defined as part of the Target line.
Take the example of Telekinesis. I have Snowcasting. I cast telekinesis (now with the [Cold] descriptor) on a sword and throw it at an enemy.
If the enemy is immune to [Cold] spells, he is not immune to this effect of a [Cold] TK, which is a sword sticking out of his face. He IS immune if I try to throw him at a sword instead of the other way around.
To claim otherwise is to say that being immune to magical fire effects is to be immune to the (completely mundane) fire that results from a fireball igniting a forest because that forest fire is demonstrably an effect of the fireball. Nevertheless, that forest fire is not magical fire despite being the direct result of a fireball.
In a more related example, right next to Love's Pain is the much abused Mind Rape. This is also [Evil, Mind Affecting].
In particular, it states that the caster gains knowledge of the target's memories, emotions and so on. This effect (of gaining knowledge) should work even if the caster has Mind Blank active, which your argument would prevent.
If I interpreted your opinion wrongly, do please correct me.
-
dark_samuari, ironically, didn't Doc Strange _lose_?
(although, I would say it's due to DM Fiat, or rather plot contrivancy.)
Well to be completely fair the Hulk performed an attack that actually isn't spelled out in DnD. The Hulk disabled Dr. Strange more than anything by snapping his hands.
So in this case it is DM Fiat but it's also a really smart move on the Hulk taking out the one weakness of the doctor.
-
dark_samuari, ironically, didn't Doc Strange _lose_?
(although, I would say it's due to DM Fiat, or rather plot contrivancy.)
Well to be completely fair the Hulk performed an attack that actually isn't spelled out in DnD. The Hulk disabled Dr. Strange more than anything by snapping his hands.
So in this case it is DM Fiat but it's also a really smart move on the Hulk taking out the one weakness of the doctor.
The hulk always wins because his comics are stupid as hell. Holy crap I hate the hulk. Of course, that was my little brother's and one of my friend's favorite comic book characters, mostly because of how stupid it was. HULK SMASH! Pretty much summed up their mentality. I never even got into comic books (I think I've owned maybe 2 in my whole lifetime), but still managed to hear enough about that one to thoroughly hate it.
The old TV show was actually pretty awesome, though. Lot's of emotional turmoil. :D
-
I have a few copies of she-hulk. much more entertaining.
-
dark_samuari, ironically, didn't Doc Strange _lose_?
(although, I would say it's due to DM Fiat, or rather plot contrivancy.)
Well to be completely fair the Hulk performed an attack that actually isn't spelled out in DnD. The Hulk disabled Dr. Strange more than anything by snapping his hands.
So in this case it is DM Fiat but it's also a really smart move on the Hulk taking out the one weakness of the doctor.
The hulk always wins because his comics are stupid as hell. Holy crap I hate the hulk. Of course, that was my little brother's and one of my friend's favorite comic book characters, mostly because of how stupid it was. HULK SMASH! Pretty much summed up their mentality. I never even got into comic books (I think I've owned maybe 2 in my whole lifetime), but still managed to hear enough about that one to thoroughly hate it.
The old TV show was actually pretty awesome, though. Lot's of emotional turmoil. :D
You should invest in Planet Hulk and the sequel (which the battle between Dr. Strange and Hulk, including numerous others, is shown) World War Hulk. WWH isn't as great as Planet Hulk, which is amazing in it's scope, storytelling and making you actually care about the Hulk as a person.
I'd say definitely try to pick up Planet Hulk PhaedrusXY, you won't regret it.
-
Mind Over Body + Con 14 + Festering Anger. :D
Some hulk tales are good... Others, not so much. Banner in hiding + trying to gain control makes for good tales, generally.
-
WWH is ridiculously intense. It's not the best story but holy hell I was excited at the climax.
-
My favorite part of Planet Hulk is when they delve into how the Hulk truly hates Banner but is also legitimately terrified of him because he knows any chance Banner has of killing himself he'll take it. It's why the Hulk won't let him fly spacecrafts because he knows Banner will pilot it right into the sun if given the chance.
Makes for a great inner-conflict.
-
holy hell I was excited at the climax.
I think this should be quoted out of context :p
-
Just a quick question here, Azrael, but by your reasoning, doesn't that mean that a character with Mind Blank active isn't able to receive information from, say, Detect Thoughts, regardless of whether his target is immune or not, since Mind Blank protects against all mind-affecting spells?
-
Some would argue that you can ignore it for your own spell's effects. But...yeah, I thought that was already accepted by RAW...I went over that clause a long time ago with one of my players, but I let her ignore it since it was her own spell.
-
It is not accepted by RAW. You cannot ignore your own spell effects.
Mindblank makes you immune to mindaffecting. Mindblank on the bard prevents him from being affected by his own inspiration.
Similarly, you cannot ignore hitting yourself from detonating a fireball too close.
-
Umm.... yeah. You definitely can't just ignore your own spell effects (unless you're playing NWN in easy mode :P ).
-
Hear Ye, Hear Ye. All who post offtopic things (not homebrew abilities useful to an antimage class) or discussions about them will be mocked in amusing ways.
I AM SO FUCKING SICK OF THIS GOD DAMNED ARGUMENT!
It okay.... You're interpretation is one logical possibility.... have a prosac
That's sort of what this thread feels like to me.
I am trying to think of something to explain why after several pages and iterations from the OP, you don't understand the purpose of the thread. I can tell because your example didn't fit at all. For analogy, lets say you could give the hulk any specific power you wanted. We will call this creativity 'homebrew' for his warhulk 'class.' There that feels more in line with the thread. Can you still think of nothing useless to us?
the above two posts are also unnecessary because Azrael already mentioned that raw you can't ignore BLAH BLAH BLAH
More on-topic stuff. I don't really care about that interpretation of the rules. I'll note that I think it is the majority one among normal DnD players, however.
-
Hear Ye, Hear Ye. All who post offtopic things (not homebrew abilities useful to an antimage class) or discussions about them will be mocked in amusing ways.
I AM SO FUCKING SICK OF THIS GOD DAMNED ARGUMENT!
It okay.... You're interpretation is one logical possibility.... have a prosac
That's sort of what this thread feels like to me.
I am trying to think of something to explain why after several pages and iterations from the OP, you don't understand the purpose of the thread. I can tell because your example didn't fit at all. For analogy, lets say you could give the hulk any specific power you wanted. We will call this creativity 'homebrew' for his warhulk 'class.' There that feels more in line with the thread. Can you still think of nothing useless to us?
the above two posts are also unnecessary because Azrael already mentioned that raw you can't ignore BLAH BLAH BLAH
More on-topic stuff. I don't really care about that interpretation of the rules. I'll note that I think it is the majority one among normal DnD players, however.
RAW: the wizard always wins. now, can we PLEASE get back to actually discussing charOp?
you want to beat the TO wizard? you are going to need even more TO characters. it is, generally, not worth the effort; after all, the wizard can have one of whatever it is you make on his side too.
-
How 'Bout this for sum hulk-style homebrew feats:
Limitless Rage[general]:
Prerequisites: The ability to rage or a similar class feature
Effect: whenever you are the target of any effect(including attacks) that would cause damage to you, kill you, or otherwise directly harm you, you enter a rage. if you are already raging, you effectively rage again, doubling the effects of the rage. There is no limit to the total amount of rages you can have stacked using this feat. All the rages' durations are renewed when you enter a new one. This effect takes place whether or not you succeed on your saving throw.
Numb Anger[general]
Prerequisites: The ability to rage or a similar class feature, Limitless Anger
Effect: while raging, the amount of negative hit point you need to die is increased by 10 for each rage you have going. for example, if you are raging 4 times, you die at -50.
Voluntary Berserk[general]
Prerequisites: The ability to rage or a similar class feature, Limitless Anger
effect: you can use up normal uses of rage per day to enter a stacked rage as per limited anger. You do not need to take damage to enter stacked rages. For example, a barbarian with this feat could use up two of his rages/day to enter a double rage, as per Limitless rage.
Proportional Provocation[general]
Prerequisites: The ability to rage or a similar class feature, Limitless Anger
Effect: You enter an extra rage for each 20 points of damage you would take, instead of just one as per Limitless Anger. If it is a death effect, treat it as dealing as much damage as you have maximum hitpoints.
-
General stuff:
Taking away genesis-lock would a good start.
Eg. Forge Planar Link/Breach
- Create some kind of stationary item (destroyed by moving) that makes a permanent gate to a target plane
Extra Actions
Anti-mage stuff:
IHS at will is another good one.
- with the caveat that he can do it even if standard actions are not possible.
Let the IHS apply to crazy stuff
- eg. AMF, windwall (stand in it)
Have some kind of counterspell-like flaw to all spells (make it a knowledge check + a mundane item)
- eg. reflect dispel magic with a mirror, prevent teleport with an anchor (G.Teleport might require a bigger anchor?)
- if you dislike having to modify spells, make a new kind of item:
--- Spell Lock: prevents all of a specific spell fail within 200ft if they affect anything within or are casted into the area, including supernatural abilities and items that work off those spells or similar effects.
-
I think investigating home brew is swell, but not everyone will be allowed to use it. I think if anyone wants to seriously consider beating the TO Wizard they should open themselves up to ALL, not just Fighters. I think a fully optimized Wizard would be difficult of even a DweomerCheater of Mystra or a Planar Sheppard to take out. Hell, even writing up the proof of how Pun-Pun would do it would take some work.
I want to play in a setting where a dude with a sword can stand up to even the most cunning magician. 3.5 isn't that off the bat, but maybe if we can figure out several strategies for more powerful characters we can adapt one to our friend the Fighter.
-
Perhaps venturing into the oh-so-weird land of psionics may help us here? I think possibly attacking from a wholly distinct and different style could offer us a better chance.
Also, to PlzBreakMyCampaign I'll repost for sincerity's sake:
Dungeons and Dragons, serious business...
-
Have some kind of counterspell-like flaw to all spells (make it a knowledge check + a mundane item)
- eg. reflect dispel magic with a mirror, prevent teleport with an anchor (G.Teleport might require a bigger anchor?)
- if you dislike having to modify spells, make a new kind of item:
--- Spell Lock: prevents all of a specific spell fail within 200ft if they affect anything within or are casted into the area, including supernatural abilities and items that work off those spells or similar effects.
This is an interesting idea. The Tome fighter's foil ability lets him disrupt anything as an immediate action, though. Including supernatural abilities, and even extraordinary ones. And he gets multiple immediate actions per round (I think 2 or 3 in the end). If you dip into the Legendary Commander prestige class, also from Races of War, he basically gets another immediate action per round.
So just allowing the Tome fighter is a hell of a lot less work than making up a specific "foil" for every spell in existence.
-
Have some kind of counterspell-like flaw to all spells (make it a knowledge check + a mundane item)
- eg. reflect dispel magic with a mirror, prevent teleport with an anchor (G.Teleport might require a bigger anchor?)
- if you dislike having to modify spells, make a new kind of item:
--- Spell Lock: prevents all of a specific spell fail within 200ft if they affect anything within or are casted into the area, including supernatural abilities and items that work off those spells or similar effects.
This is an interesting idea. The Tome fighter's foil ability lets him disrupt anything as an immediate action, though. Including supernatural abilities, and even extraordinary ones. And he gets multiple immediate actions per round (I think 2 or 3 in the end). If you dip into the Legendary Commander prestige class, also from Races of War, he basically gets another immediate action per round.
So just allowing the Tome fighter is a hell of a lot less work than making up a specific "foil" for every spell in existence.
tome fighter is a bit overpowered. I personally find it to be just plain silly.
-
Have some kind of counterspell-like flaw to all spells (make it a knowledge check + a mundane item)
- eg. reflect dispel magic with a mirror, prevent teleport with an anchor (G.Teleport might require a bigger anchor?)
- if you dislike having to modify spells, make a new kind of item:
--- Spell Lock: prevents all of a specific spell fail within 200ft if they affect anything within or are casted into the area, including supernatural abilities and items that work off those spells or similar effects.
This is an interesting idea. The Tome fighter's foil ability lets him disrupt anything as an immediate action, though. Including supernatural abilities, and even extraordinary ones. And he gets multiple immediate actions per round (I think 2 or 3 in the end). If you dip into the Legendary Commander prestige class, also from Races of War, he basically gets another immediate action per round.
So just allowing the Tome fighter is a hell of a lot less work than making up a specific "foil" for every spell in existence.
tome fighter is a bit overpowered. I personally find it to be just plain silly.
As do I. If we bring in the tome fighter than we would need to bring in everything from Frank & K's system.
-
tome fighter is a bit overpowered. I personally find it to be just plain silly.
Compared to what? A guy sitting in his own genesis demiplane sending out similacrums of elder titans to kill his enemies? :lmao
Foil has a range limit of 30 feet (or 60 at the upper levels), and requires that he hit you with a ranged touch attack. A well-built mage will still smoke a well-built tome fighter with no problems. The tome fighter isn't useless at the upper levels, though, and if he actually gets the drop on the mage, he might just take him out. Sounds pretty balanced to me...
As do I. If we bring in the tome fighter than we would need to bring in everything from Frank & K's system.
And the problem with that is? You want a wholesale fix to D&D's problems, especially with casters outclassing everyone else? Well, it so happens that two really smart dudes (an MD and a lawyer) already made one, and you can download it as a pdf even.
-
As do I. If we bring in the tome fighter than we would need to bring in everything from Frank & K's system.
And the problem with that is? You want a wholesale fix to D&D's problems, especially with casters outclassing everyone else? Well, it so happens that two really smart dudes (an MD and a lawyer) already made one, and you can download it as a pdf even.
3.5 doesn't need fixing, it needs a DM with a brain. playing tome just means that everyone plays physical DPS and casters don't have any fun whatsoever. the combat feats are far too powerful, and fighters get far too many of them. a class should never be that damn powerful right out of the box.
DM: "so, guys, lets play a tome campain!"
players: "sure!"
DM: "what you guys gonna play?"
players, all at once "fighter20!"
-
As do I. If we bring in the tome fighter than we would need to bring in everything from Frank & K's system.
And the problem with that is? You want a wholesale fix to D&D's problems, especially with casters outclassing everyone else? Well, it so happens that two really smart dudes (an MD and a lawyer) already made one, and you can download it as a pdf even.
3.5 doesn't need fixing, it needs a DM with a brain. playing tome just means that everyone plays physical DPS and casters don't have any fun whatsoever. the combat feats are far too powerful, and fighters get far too many of them. a class should never be that damn powerful right out of the box.
DM: "so, guys, lets play a tome campain!"
players: "sure!"
DM: "what you guys gonna play?"
players, all at once "fighter20!"
This is just BS. I'm running one Tome game and about to start playing in another one. You know how many people are going fighter 20? None. (Although I admit that I am using a different version of fighter, but it does include the option to get the Foil ability. It just gets it a bit later, and doesn't get access to Combat bonus feats till 12th+ level.)
I can see why you might tone down the Tome Fighter a bit, but optimized casters are still more powerful. Even the Tome Fighter doesn't beat CodZilla, or an Incantatrix.
-
PhaedrusXY, I think you may have unrealistic expectations of how dungeons and dragons is played. I have never seen a mage even remotely as powerful as the one presented in this thread. And to be fair the wizard in mentioning is a TO-creation but you're proposing a practical solution to it. These shouldn't match-up and they won't.
We know most games never reach the higher levels, most games won't see past level 13 so this isn't really even that huge of a problem.
Also, are you working under the guise that the wizard would be against other players? This offers us two paths: First, it has to be a duel between one player and another (DnD is a team game after all so this is the only realistic option to have players against each other) and thus we don't need to worry about it as the duel only serves as one purpose. Secondly, the DM is controlling the uber-mage and the players must face him. Any good GM (sorry kevin_video...) will have to allow the mage to lose, and should be hoping for it, unless they don't understand the game they are facilitating.
But perhaps you offer up that there is a third option, that a player within the party is playing an uber-mage. This problem is handled by the gm talking to that player and illustrating the preferred power-level of the game. Problem solved. If the player continues to abuse the uber-mage than they're kicked out or lose their character. And don't cite this as unfair, the player and the DM should have set up a verbal contract about what type of game they wanted to play and as such their are consequences to breaking it.
So I am yet to see why we need to bring in a whole slew of new house-rules (no matter how nice they are. I will give you this as Frank and K are brilliant writers).
-
This is just BS. I'm running one Tome game and about to start playing in another one. You know how many people are going fighter 20? None. (Although I admit that I am using a different version of fighter, but it does include the option to get the Foil ability. It just gets it a bit later, and doesn't get access to Combat bonus feats till 12th+ level.)
I can see why you might tone down the Tome Fighter a bit, but optimized casters are still more powerful. Even the Tome Fighter doesn't beat CodZilla, or an Incantatrix.
your version is a heavily nerfed one compared to the frank and K tome fighter. that explains why no one is playing fighter20. my comment was relevant to tome fighter, not your more balanced version.
a caster is pretty screwed in any straight up fight with the tome fighter. their only hope of winning is by abusing minions, long range battlefield control, and other absurdly complicated tactics. if the fighter gets close enough to use foil, the mage has lost.
I looked over a few tome combat feats. holy shit. hell, just standstill+murderous intent is insanely powerful, and if you add those two mage slayer feats on it gets way to silly.
fighter: "since I threaten you, you can't cast defensively."
wizard: ok. abrupt jau-
fighter: foiled.
wizard: .... five foot step out of your reach.
fighter: standstill.
wizard: good luck, I have mirror image and all my defensive buffs up!
fighter: they don't work. at all. oh, and I have tremorsense 120ft and blindsight 30ft. does a 37 hit your spelless AC?
wizard:.... yes, it does. *fails massive save DC against standstill*
fighter: ok, I hit you. that means no spellcasting for one round. also, since you failed the save, you are now dazed.
wizard: crap.
fighter: my turn? standard action CDG! I can use it on dazed/stunning people too!
wizard: that's it, I'm rolling a fighter.
if the fighter gets within reach of the wizard (which he gets lots of help to do so from abilities and combat feats), the wizard is dead.
-
wizard: .... five foot step out of your reach.
fighter: standstill.
Stand Still [General] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm)
You can prevent foes from fleeing or closing.
Prerequisite
Str 13.
Benefit
When a foes movement out of a square you threaten grants you an attack of opportunity, you can give up that attack and instead attempt to stop your foe in his tracks. Make your attack of opportunity normally. If you hit your foe, he must succeed on a Reflex save against a DC of 10 + your damage roll (the opponent does not actually take damage), or immediately halt as if he had used up his move actions for the round.
Since you use the Stand Still feat in place of your attack of opportunity, you can do so only a number of times per round equal to the number of times per round you could make an attack of opportunity (normally just one).
Normal
Attacks of opportunity cannot halt your foes in their tracks.
-
^Anklebite:
Actually, that's about what it takes. Since if the mage gets even 1 spell in, it's game over. (that spell being timestop or plane shift)
I would think that would be reasonable, save that the fighter would also need a way to track a fleeing wizard and cross planar boundaries. Give the wizard time to regroup (about three rounds or so?) and you're facing a gated minion + a thousand dmg orb to the face.
It's rocket tag either way, and yes, fighter getting in range for foil is hitting with said rocket.
-
wizard: .... five foot step out of your reach.
fighter: standstill.
Stand Still [General] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm)
You can prevent foes from fleeing or closing.
Prerequisite
Str 13.
Benefit
When a foes movement out of a square you threaten grants you an attack of opportunity, you can give up that attack and instead attempt to stop your foe in his tracks. Make your attack of opportunity normally. If you hit your foe, he must succeed on a Reflex save against a DC of 10 + your damage roll (the opponent does not actually take damage), or immediately halt as if he had used up his move actions for the round.
Since you use the Stand Still feat in place of your attack of opportunity, you can do so only a number of times per round equal to the number of times per round you could make an attack of opportunity (normally just one).
Normal
Attacks of opportunity cannot halt your foes in their tracks.
I am talking about the frank and K tome standstill. it's a bit different, and far more powerful.
-
Also, the Foil ability requires either a melee or ranged touch attack.
If the Fighter isn't within melee touch range, he learns the hard way why Ray Deflection is so good.
-
Also, the Foil ability requires either a melee or ranged touch attack.
If the Fighter isn't within melee touch range, he learns the hard way why Ray Deflection is so good.
huh, that might just work.
for those who want to check out these uber combat feats. (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Tome_Combat_Feats)
-
It is not accepted by RAW. You cannot ignore your own spell effects.
Mindblank makes you immune to mindaffecting. Mindblank on the bard prevents him from being affected by his own inspiration.
Similarly, you cannot ignore hitting yourself from detonating a fireball too close.
What...is this some kind of gotcha thing...?
Some would argue that you can ignore it for your own spell's effects. But...yeah, I thought that was already accepted by RAW...I went over that clause a long time ago with one of my players, but I let her ignore it since it was her own spell.
I clearly stated that I knew by RAW you couldn't and I allowed it as a houserule...
-
@Anklebite
High level Tome play is "abusing minions, long range battlefield control, and other absurdly complicated tactics."
-
@Anklebite
High level Tome play is "abusing minions, long range battlefield control, and other absurdly complicated tactics."
those tend to be fun for about 30 minutes, after which it becomes rather boring.
-
I clearly stated that I knew by RAW you couldn't and I allowed it as a houserule...
Thus by RAW, if you allow effects to carry the descriptor is to allow absurd situations like detect thoughts not working for mindblanked wizards and Vecna-blooded people unable to make use of any divination spell period (not to mention the fringe cases of [Cold] spell X and immunity to [Cold] spells). Or being immune to the mundane fire set alight by a fireball (while only being immune to magical fire)
Put it another way, descriptor and spell interactions apply to the targeting of a spell and not it's effect.
Therefore, since it's absurd, you cannot allow effects to carry the descriptor of the spell. Therefore Love's Pain works even if the loved one is not under mindblank.
-
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...
Thus by RAW (i.e. the houserule) I allow one's OWN spells (if harmless) to ignore it...It has nothing to do with an enemy's spell or even the game mechanic itself...stop twisting my words for your own purposes!
Bring another illogical, ill-thought-out argument to me and ill simply ignore it.
-
are you calling RAW a houserule?
-
No, that's what he did, I was just responding to his ridiculousness...
-
Let me head this off right here.
According to RAW (at least, as Azrael defines it), descriptors apply to all parts of a spell.
Azrael's houserule, insofar as I can tell, allows you to ignore this for your own (harmless) spells.
jseah is referring to the RAW before said houserule is applied.
Azrael mistook this to be the RAW with said houserule in place.
Does this clear things up?
-
Azrael is wrong and ugly.
-
Let me head this off right here.
According to RAW (at least, as Azrael defines it), descriptors apply to all parts of a spell.
Azrael's houserule, insofar as I can tell, allows you to ignore this for your own (harmless) spells.
jseah is referring to the RAW before said houserule is applied.
Azrael mistook this to be the RAW with said houserule in place.
Does this clear things up?
Yes, however, my house rule didn't really apply to descriptors it was more like allowing you to lower mind blank for your own spells (similar to lowering SR) if you chose to do so. I didn't really think it through as far as mechanics went at the time and I probably wouldn't house rule it again given the chance.
I suppose the real question is this (since it applied to persisted spells).
If you persist a spell on yourself which is mind-affecting then cast a mindblank afterward does that mean the spell no longer affects you, or since its affecting you? Mind Blank never has a clause in it which states (similar to protection from evil) it suppresses effects currently active.
Basically, I made the house rule because I wasn't quite sure how to adjudicate this.
Azrael is wrong and ugly.
Firstly, my argument is very logical
Secondly, I am a freelance model, so I am almost assuredly better looking than 99% of you (especially considering gamers are not known for their dashing looks); no offense to anyone else.
Thirdly, reported you :D
so hopefully you were being sarcastic or Lucy...you got some splanin to doooo
-
Azrael: That problem is can be generalized to a bigger question: "What happens when you, while under a spell, suddenly become an illegal target?"
eg. Priest casts geas on you. You try for a while and get bored, so you buy a PAO and turn yourself into a stone (for a while), making you an illegal target for geas. Is it ended, suppressed or something stranger?
IIRC, there isn't a RAW answer for that. In the case of your persistence, it has little to do with the RAW (before houserule), since gathering info from detect thoughts is an effect, not a targeting problem.
Also, for the record, yes, I am referring to RAW before your houserule. Your interpretation of RAW in that "Effects carry their spells' Descriptors" leads to nonsensical results without your houserule.
**********************
I found something that could support Azrael's argument. Area spells (eg. fireball) don't have a target line, only an area line. Nor does the Area portion of Spell Descriptions mention that spells target everything in the area, the wording only mentions "the area the spell effects". So yes, in this case, a very strong argument is made for spell effects to carry their descriptor (ie. nonsensical results occur if spell effects don't carry their descriptors).
Although this could easily be interpreted as "spells target everything in their area".
-
Or it could be handled as "when this leads to something nonsensical" use common sense.
I just think it makes less sense for a spell which clearly has the mind-affecting descriptor to affect someone (directly or indirectly) that's immune to mind affecting spells and effects.
-
Point taken, yes, I suppose it makes a sort of sense. It would be easier to resolve this by using your interpretation and defining "effect" (carries descriptor) and "consequence" (doesn't carry descriptor) strictly.
- eg. damage is an effect, receiving information is a consequence, etc...
Still, the mere threat of a Love's Pain nuke means any potential targets must be immune to mindaffecting 24/7 or die.
Actually, could this (interplanar targeted damage) be somehow substituted with a warped version of the Locate City bomb? IE. use the trick on Scrying. Then you force your opponent to be in scry-proof areas 24/7. How does it go again? Snowcasting, Flash Frost... er... that strange metamagic feat that gives 1 neg level to targets hit? Or just energy admixture, twin, repeat, enervate spell for massive multipliers to the flash frost damage and blow your target to pieces across planes.
Or perhaps some nasty trick using truenames...
Plus, the dying curse trick is easily replicated by the wizard. What were the conditions for a dying curse again? It sounds like something that moves at the speed of plot.
-
Thirdly, reported you :D
Fail.
-
Thirdly, reported you :D
Fail.
I concur.
-
Secondly, I am a freelance model, so I am almost assuredly better looking than 99% of you (especially considering gamers are not known for their dashing looks); no offense to anyone else.
Hey, beauty is subjective! :mad
-
Secondly, I am a freelance model, so I am almost assuredly better looking than 99% of you (especially considering gamers are not known for their dashing looks); no offense to anyone else.
Hey, beauty is subjective! :mad
not in your case it isn't.
....sorry, I've just always wanted to say that. :D
-
Secondly, I am a freelance model, so I am almost assuredly better looking than 99% of you (especially considering gamers are not known for their dashing looks); no offense to anyone else.
I'm sure your breasts and penis are all bigger than mine too, Azrael.
-
Secondly, I am a freelance model, so I am almost assuredly better looking than 99% of you (especially considering gamers are not known for their dashing looks); no offense to anyone else.
Hey, beauty is subjective! :mad
not in your case it isn't.
....sorry, I've just always wanted to say that. :D
No problem, dude. I applaud your humor :clap (and hey, its probably at least halfway true :D)
-
Secondly, I am a freelance model, so I am almost assuredly better looking than 99% of you (especially considering gamers are not known for their dashing looks); no offense to anyone else.
Hey, beauty is subjective! :mad
not in your case it isn't.
....sorry, I've just always wanted to say that. :D
No problem, dude. I applaud your humor :clap (and hey, its probably at least halfway true :D)
anyways, they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder; therefor, joke's on Azrael.
-
Secondly, I am a freelance model, so I am almost assuredly better looking than 99% of you (especially considering gamers are not known for their dashing looks); no offense to anyone else.
Hey, beauty is subjective! :mad
not in your case it isn't.
....sorry, I've just always wanted to say that. :D
No problem, dude. I applaud your humor :clap (and hey, its probably at least halfway true :D)
anyways, they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder; therefor, AMF's on Azrael.
ftfy
-
Secondly, I am a freelance model, so I am almost assuredly better looking than 99% of you (especially considering gamers are not known for their dashing looks); no offense to anyone else.
Hey, beauty is subjective! :mad
not in your case it isn't.
....sorry, I've just always wanted to say that. :D
No problem, dude. I applaud your humor :clap (and hey, its probably at least halfway true :D)
anyways, they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder; therefor, AMF's on Azrael.
ftfy
it never said which eye. I personally am rooting for disintegrate. fun stuff, that one.
-
hey, i would go with dominate. he's more useful to us alive than dead :evillaugh
-
where the hell is TML?
he should have been here by now. advocating the TK eye.
-
where the hell is TML?
he should have been here by now. advocating the TK eye.
:lmao
-
Sorry, I was busy getting a hacksaw and a graft expert.
What were you guys talking about?
-
anyways, they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder; therefor, joke's on Azrael.
Whatever...I was going to post something mean but honestly...you people are not worth my time.
PEACE!
-
While you (assuming you are one of those gamer sterotypes) sit on your ass all day, eat McDonalds, are forced to settle for other ugly people, and will end up dying 20 years younger than me.
Third, reported you :D
so hopefully you were being sarcastic or Lucy...you got some splanin to doooo
-
What were you guys talking about?
Is there anything they could say where TK wouldn't be applicable?
-
So.... How bout that AntiMage?
Eh?
EH???
-
Third, reported you :D
so hopefully you were being sarcastic or Lucy...you got some splanin to doooo
Awww, sorry...beat you to it...better luck next time!
and as childish of a thing this seems like to say (I mean, what are we...in elementary school?), remember, you started it.
...this is the part where the moderator comes in and says something like "AND I'M FINISHING IT!" *closes thread*
-
...this is the part where the moderator comes in and says something like "AND I'M FINISHING IT!" *closes thread*
Only if you guys keep this attitude up.
Now, How bout that AntiMage?
-
What about it? No one suggested how to on a word revision for the made up feats I posted (other than limiting range of the tide thing) and only one guy hated them and his points apply to Vecna-Blooded.
Block Gate and Abjutant Jaunt and call it day.
-
So.... How bout that AntiMage?
Eh?
EH???
believe me, we tried. it isn't working. fucking COP.
anyways, they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder; therefor, joke's on Azrael.
Whatever...I was going to post something mean but honestly...you people are not worth my time.
PEACE!
that's a bit contradictory with your later post(or should I say your later post contradicts this?); regardless, the "taking the moral high ground" thing only works if you then don't try and say "I'm taking the high ground" as a rebuttal.
-
The difference is between asking for information about you versus information about your plans.
That's a HUUUUUGE difference.
The way you have the feat worded, if ANYONE in the entire multiverse has taken the feat, nobody's divinations work at all. That's why I don't like it.
-
The difference is between asking for information about you versus information about your plans.
That's a HUUUUUGE difference.
The way you have the feat worded, if ANYONE in the entire multiverse has taken the feat, nobody's divinations work at all. That's why I don't like it.
Your plans are information about you.
How would you word it?
-
Let's work on a hypothetical situation. Say we have Pun-Pun, he's powered up but let's limit him to being slightly weaker than any resident god of magic. You have every tool and trick short of just turning off magic, how would you take out the TO Wizard?
-
Let's work on a hypothetical situation. Say we have Pun-Pun, he's powered up but let's limit him to being slightly weaker than any resident god of magic. You have every tool and trick short of just turning off magic, how would you take out the TO Wizard?
I assume you mean no divine SLAs.
Well, it's simple.
Finding the wizard:
Pun-Pun has more CoPs (NI) and Intelligence (NI) than the wizard has, thus he knows which plane the wizard is on.
Round 1 :
1) Pun-Pun has NI actions via Synchronicity loops
2) Pun-Pun has NI knowledge planes check, he knows about the Planar Obelisk (planar touchstone from planar handbook)
3) Planeshift to the Planar Obelisk, spend 8 hours worth of actions meditating at the obelisk to open a planar rift to the wizard's plane (note that this bypasses all planar travel protections)
4) Walk in and kill everything with your infinite actions. Track down all clones/backups and so on, using the obelisk if neccessary, and end it all in 1 round.
Note: infinite acitons is probably TO. But then again, we're talking about Pun-Pun here.
-
Let's work on a hypothetical situation. Say we have Pun-Pun, he's powered up but let's limit him to being slightly weaker than any resident god of magic. You have every tool and trick short of just turning off magic, how would you take out the TO Wizard?
I assume you mean no divine SLAs.
Well, it's simple.
Finding the wizard:
Pun-Pun has more CoPs (NI) and Intelligence (NI) than the wizard has, thus he knows which plane the wizard is on.
Round 1 :
1) Pun-Pun has NI actions via Synchronicity loops
2) Pun-Pun has NI knowledge planes check, he knows about the Planar Obelisk (planar touchstone from planar handbook)
3) Planeshift to the Planar Obelisk, spend 8 hours worth of actions meditating at the obelisk to open a planar rift to the wizard's plane (note that this bypasses all planar travel protections)
4) Walk in and kill everything with your infinite actions. Track down all clones/backups and so on, using the obelisk if neccessary, and end it all in 1 round.
Note: infinite acitons is probably TO. But then again, we're talking about Pun-Pun here.
Would the TO Wizard know Pun-Pun is coming at least? I'm not familiar with the Planar Obelisk but I would assume you need to spend 8 hours meditating, not 8 hours worth of actions. The TO Wizard would probably be able to deduce that Pun-Pun is going to go to the Planar Obelisk as well and be there for 8 hours. I don't know how the Wizard could ever beat Pun-Pun but I wouldn't be surprised if he could stalemate him indefinitely.
-
Pun Pun has Time Stop effectively at will. He can spend 8 hours.
-
You know what? I've been holding this in reserve for some time now, but I believe it is now at hand.
Behold the ultimate abuse of Contact Other Plane. Behold, the true power of divination!
Step 1: Use questions about questions to reduce the chance of a particular future answer being anything other than true to less than one in a googal. Toss on a third eye expose (The wearer of this kind of third eye always knows when someone lies directly to him) for good measure
Step 2: Ask the following question
"Defining a future of class A as one where the next statement I make after you answer me is "hello" and I easily succeed at anything I attempt,
a future of class B as one where the next statement I make after you answer me is not "hello" and I easily succeed at anything I attempt,
a future of class D as one where the next statement I make after you answer me is "hello" and I do not easily succeed at anything I attempt,
a future of class E as one where the next statement I make after you answer me is not "hello" and I do not easily succeed at anything I attempt,
Is my future in a class which is designated by a vowel?"
If the answer is yes, say "hello". If it isn't, say "goodbye".
Note that these four classes select from all possible futures.
Yeah, this is dropping off the edge of the world into far TO. Whatever.
-
@TML, exactly. CoP and silly high Int wizards leads to rather complex questioning systems which are near infallible.
-
Hear Ye, Hear Ye. All who post offtopic things (not homebrew abilities useful to an antimage class) or discussions about them will be mocked in amusing ways.
I AM SO FUCKING SICK OF THIS GOD DAMNED ARGUMENT!
It okay.... You're interpretation is one logical possibility.... have a prosac
That's sort of what this thread feels like to me.
I am trying to think of something to explain why after several pages and iterations from the OP, you don't understand the purpose of the thread. I can tell because your example didn't fit at all. For analogy, lets say you could give the hulk any specific power you wanted. We will call this creativity 'homebrew' for his warhulk 'class.' There that feels more in line with the thread. Can you still think of nothing useless to us?
the above two posts are also unnecessary because Azrael already mentioned that raw you can't ignore BLAH BLAH BLAH
More on-topic stuff. I don't really care about that interpretation of the rules. I'll note that I think it is the majority one among normal DnD players, however.
RAW: the wizard always wins. now, can we PLEASE get back to actually discussing charOp?
you want to beat the TO wizard? you are going to need even more TO characters. it is, generally, not worth the effort; after all, the wizard can have one of whatever it is you make on his side too.
RAW what? TO? Did you even read the post? This thread goes beyond RAW but well short of TO. Think outside the box you silly scottish mime; homebrew is allowed.
not just Fighters.
Not interested in fighters. I just want less than a gish (small list half casting is okay)
Also, to PlzBreakMyCampaign I'll repost for sincerity's sake:
Dungeons and Dragons, serious business...
When was I very serious in this thread? Did you miss the hear ye hear ye part? le sigh
So just allowing the Tome fighter is a hell of a lot less work than making up a specific "foil" for every spell in existence.
Oh yea. Specific is bad. General is good. I mentioned before that I already had a completed AM class that could serve this purpose. I just wanted to see if the boards came up with similar things. When I post very original things, its generally disliked. I'll note, PXY, though that my AM build had no action economy shenanigans :)
So I am yet to see why we need to bring in a whole slew of new house-rules
Yeah I'm not that into Frank and K's stuff. I'm just after homebrewing abilities for 1 class with a specific goal (don't die to mages, not hunt them all)
Secondly, I am a freelance model, so I am almost assuredly better looking than 99% of you
O baby, O baby.
Thirdly, reported you :D
Fail.
I concur.
Poor Azrael. Its like amsterdam here. You could go over to GitP but its more like a gulag...
Is there anything they could say where TK wouldn't be applicable?
TK?
So.... How bout that AntiMage?
Eh?
EH???
Exactly
-
The ability to find the Wizard.
The ability to get to the Wizard.
The ability to hit the Wizard.
The ability to damage the Wizard.
The ability to ignore or otherwise deal with minions of the Wizard.
And the ability to do this in an Anti-Magic Feild. Or even better, a Dead Magic Zone. Because less things get through that.
This needs to be in the form of class abilities in late levels, or with feats that lower caster level. Otherwise the Wizard gets them too and then we're back at square one.
The big things to stop;
Divinations - Vecna Blooded is the best you can get short of homebrew.
Contingencies - No idea how to do this one.
Celerity - Only answer to this is to have a similar effect.
Misc;
Mettle and Evasion can be useful but aren't amazing. If you're getting hit you've already lost.
Multi-Pouncing is amazing. Does Wizard 1 count as 'caster beating caster' still? Because Abjurt Jaunt fueling shadowpounce is just amazing. And lets you answer to Celeity.
Complaint;
Killing a hypothetical build concept is difficult. You can only have so many Contingencies and Spell slots and such. And it's really hard to kill the build when everything is responded with "We have a contingency for that." But I guess this just falls back to complaining about how fucking stupid CoP is....
-
I had an idea, it's a little but far fetched. I was hoping I could make the Wizard stave off Pun-Pun indefinitely. This would prove two things, one that no PC can beat the TO Wizard, and that if the TO Wizard is (kinda) equal to Pun-Pun then he is also as invalid for consideration as Pun-Pun, because no one ever tries to make a Fighter that can take out Pun-Pun.
I don't know enough tricks to make this convincing, so I'm going to open a topic in You Break It You Buy It.
-
I had an idea, it's a little but far fetched. I was hoping I could make the Wizard stave off Pun-Pun indefinitely.
It's almost impossible.
Wizard's weapon of choice.
Pun-Pun has immunity to magic from a Demilich thus the best SR checking spell you can use against it is a Shatter spell and not only is the damage halved, but Pun-Pun gets a fort save to halve it again. Also Pun-Pun is immune to damage and regenerates 40+ HP per round. If, and only If, the wizard has save or alternative death (immune to death effects means you have to use trap effects) DC of NI that doesn't check SR can it be compared to Pun-Pun's NI save bonus. Though that may very based on other forms of immunity Pun-Pun has.
Actions and who is firster.
Pun-Pun not only has Celerity, Abjurant Jaunt & Shadow Pounce, Island in Time, and even Anticipatory Strike for overkill. But also the _IForgotTheNameOf_ ability from the MMII that lets him make two standard actions per round and he stole the abilities to caste Haste as a free action and gain a 3rd standard action though it. Also he does this while maintaining the Dire Turtle's ability to have a presurpise round. He also has an NI initiative check as well and infinite actions per round as a true overkill.
The weakness of Pun-Pun is he starts out as a 1st level kobold. Kill him before he ascends to power. Problem is, the time it takes the wizard to gain even 10XP Pun-Pun has already completed his ascension. so either the Wizard comes first or he can travel back in time and kill the kobold. The dirty trick for going back in time to kill doesn't work if you have the SpC due to the flavor text being revised to say you are seeing a vision of the past rather than the online version saying you see the past. Not aware of any other trick like it as dragonlance's carries the same limit.
-
Pun Pun has Mettle. Save for Half means nothing. You cannot kill him unless you have infinity in one of your stats. PunPun is approaching infinity. That's why Omnificer is smarter then Pun Pun. But this is getting way to TO....
ANYWAYS
If this thread is going to go anywhere useful we need a line. What exactly is the Wizard? What do we assume the Wizard is capable of? We know a wizard is capable of anything, but only in a TO world. And once we cross that line... we've crossed the line.
-
The weakness of Pun-Pun is he starts out as a 1st level kobold. Kill him before he ascends to power. Problem is, the time it takes the wizard to gain even 10XP Pun-Pun has already completed his ascension. so either the Wizard comes first or he can travel back in time and kill the kobold. The dirty trick for going back in time to kill doesn't work if you have the SpC due to the flavor text being revised to say you are seeing a vision of the past rather than the online version saying you see the past. Not aware of any other trick like it as dragonlance's carries the same limit.
This (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b) works, if your DM is insane enough to allow it. ;)
-
@TML, exactly. CoP and silly high Int wizards leads to rather complex questioning systems which are near infallible.
I don't think you quite appreciate what I have just done.
I have found a way to guarantee any outcome I want to using only a fifth level spell.
-
@TML, exactly. CoP and silly high Int wizards leads to rather complex questioning systems which are near infallible.
I don't think you quite appreciate what I have just done.
I have found a way to guarantee any outcome I want to using only a fifth level spell.
As some one who's studied logic, you've crafted quite a question. I think it's TO only because most DMs wouldn't understand it, but it is still a neat trick.
-
@TML, exactly. CoP and silly high Int wizards leads to rather complex questioning systems which are near infallible.
I don't think you quite appreciate what I have just done.
I have found a way to guarantee any outcome I want to using only a fifth level spell.
Can you explain it? ..for the audience, of course, I understand it 120%. I'm just not good at explaining things. Definitely that. :D
-
@TML, exactly. CoP and silly high Int wizards leads to rather complex questioning systems which are near infallible.
I don't think you quite appreciate what I have just done.
I have found a way to guarantee any outcome I want to using only a fifth level spell.
Can you explain it? ..for the audience, of course, I understand it 120%. I'm just not good at explaining things. Definitely that. :D
There are two possible outcomes for the question, "Yes" and "No." Either answer indicates two possible futures (two for vowels and two for non-vowels), one in which the wizard succeeds easily in anything he tries and one in which he does not. In either case, what the wizard says after this answer determines which future he winds up in. No matter what the deity's response, the wizard can say something to ensure he winds up in a beneficial future. Thus, immediately after the deity's response, the wizard simply says whatever he needs to say to lock in his future, and he wins the game with a fifth level spell.
I assume that more or less captures the essence of the tactic, TML?
-
the only problem is that is, if I'm not mistaken, COP has a specific clause about the deity in question being able to answer "inconclusive".
-
the only problem is that is, if I'm not mistaken, COP has a specific clause about the deity in question being able to answer "inconclusive".
What future would be inconclusive?
There is no possible future which does not fit into one of those categories.
-
the only problem is that is, if I'm not mistaken, COP has a specific clause about the deity in question being able to answer "inconclusive".
What future would be inconclusive?
There is no possible future which does not fit into one of those categories.
...yes. there totally is a possible future where the wizard says hello and easily succeed at SOME of the things he attempt.
The weakness of Pun-Pun is he starts out as a 1st level kobold. Kill him before he ascends to power. Problem is, the time it takes the wizard to gain even 10XP Pun-Pun has already completed his ascension. so either the Wizard comes first or he can travel back in time and kill the kobold. The dirty trick for going back in time to kill doesn't work if you have the SpC due to the flavor text being revised to say you are seeing a vision of the past rather than the online version saying you see the past. Not aware of any other trick like it as dragonlance's carries the same limit.
This (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b) works, if your DM is insane enough to allow it. ;)
Pun-pun uses this too.
Hey, reverse terminator! The 'resistance' is sending an agent back in time to stop pun-pun on the rise, while he is sending back agents to stop them.
too bad pun-pun's agents will be a team of NI pun-pun clones with all his powers. crap.
-
the only problem is that is, if I'm not mistaken, COP has a specific clause about the deity in question being able to answer "inconclusive".
What future would be inconclusive?
There is no possible future which does not fit into one of those categories.
Wouldn't you hearing the answer change the outcome, either rendering the answer wrong or 'inconclusive'?
In a similar situation, couldn't you ask "Will I say 'sandwich' within five seconds of receiving your answer?" and then say 'sandwich' if he says 'no', or don't if he says 'yes'?
-
TML: I'm still not getting it. How can you manipulate probability with contact other plane?
-
Wouldn't you hearing the answer change the outcome, either rendering the answer wrong or 'inconclusive'?
Hey leave it alone.
COP fails in game for in game reasons.
COP fails in metagame reasons due to sloppy GMs.
COP fails on the forums since true answers are predestined thus countermands the point of COPing to prepare for the future.
Don't go screwing things up now and let the argument die.
-
the only problem is that is, if I'm not mistaken, COP has a specific clause about the deity in question being able to answer "inconclusive".
What future would be inconclusive?
There is no possible future which does not fit into one of those categories.
Wouldn't you hearing the answer change the outcome, either rendering the answer wrong or 'inconclusive'
In a similar situation, couldn't you ask "Will I say 'sandwich' within five seconds of receiving your answer?" and then say 'sandwich' if he says 'no', or don't if he says 'yes'?
yeah. COP can only predict the future that would have been independently of that particular casting of COP.
So, you cast COP with TML's parameters, (and the future is one where you dont say hello, and dont easily succeed at whatever you attempt). You say hello(because this part of your action was affected by the information brought into the world by COP, and changed), but that information fail to affect the result of your actions, and so, you only succed easily at whatever you attempt if you're willing to work on it. Hey, you're a wizard, if you really want, you totally can do whatever you want.
Another possible 'inconclusive' future is one where you don't say anything for the rest of your life because pun-pun pops out of a hole and kills you. Boom.
-
Contact Other Plane only answers truthfully. As SorO_Lost put it:
It predicts the future. If that doesn't come to pass, then it isn't giving the right answer.
Then by your own words COP cannot be used like this entire thread says it does. If COP reveals you die after casting Gate, you cannot do anything but cast Gate at that moment then will die afterwards and you cannot change as it.
Anyway
...yes. there totally is a possible future where the wizard says hello and easily succeed at SOME of the things he attempt.
That's a possible future where you do not succeed at everything.
-
Contact Other Plane only answers truthfully. As SorO_Lost put it:
if that is the case, then there's no reason the spell would force the future to be that everything you tried succeeded, rather than forcing the future to be that the next thing you say doesn't yield a successful future.
as negative_zero said:
In a similar situation, couldn't you ask "Will I say 'sandwich' within five seconds of receiving your answer?" and then say 'sandwich' if he says 'no', or don't if he says 'yes'?
If we assume that COP only possibly answers truthfully, and that it therefore can force the future, it seems much more viable to me that it forces your own action to comply with the predictions, rather than the rest of the universe.
-
Uh, since CoP giving a correct future-answer causes a whole bunch of paradox, wouldn't you pretty much just get the "maybe" answer when trying to probe the future? Where are you getting this absolutely correct yes-or-no answer on questions pertaining the future, bit?
I mean, sure, deities can see some time to the future, but either they answer as per unaltered timeline, or they will answer 'maybe'.
-
I think there are rules on what happens if you force a Pime Taradox, which doing that would count as.
Honestly, the spell is a teensie bit less useful if you aren't bound by the futures (essentially adding on a If I X, then what? to all the questions), but it's safer and less paradox-invoking.
-
I think there are rules on what happens if you force a Pime Taradox, which doing that would count as.
Honestly, the spell is a teensie bit less useful if you aren't bound by the futures (essentially adding on a If I X, then what? to all the questions), but it's safer and less paradox-invoking.
Making the spell less powerful is not a bad thing.
-
"with my current timeline path, unaltered by the casting of this spell, what is the answer to question x?"
now stop arguing that COP invalidates itself or doesn't do anything.
-
"with my current timeline path, unaltered by the casting of this spell, what is the answer to question x?"
now stop arguing that COP invalidates itself or doesn't do anything.
yeah. you get the answer that WOULD HAVE BEEN true if you hadn't cast COP. This works wonders for predicting your own death and preventing it, not so hot for forcing the future.
-
the only problem is that is, if I'm not mistaken, COP has a specific clause about the deity in question being able to answer "inconclusive".
What future would be inconclusive?
There is no possible future which does not fit into one of those categories.
There is the future where u get no answer. Probably due to the below
So, you cast COP with TML's parameters
because the spell isn't suppose to take into effect its own asking. Remember, COP only answers (or doesn't answer) truthfully if it works.
If not tho, TML, that would have been a good way to force time paradoxes.
COP fails in game for in game reasons.
COP fails in metagame reasons due to sloppy GMs.
COP fails on the forums since true answers are predestined thus countermands the point of COPing to prepare for the future.
Don't go screwing things up now and let the argument die.
Thank you soro. For the 5th time. I'm not interested in COP. That said there are homebrew abilties that we can make to beat it. I already have one. I want more.
-
Here's the thing:
88% of the time (assuming a greater deity), the deity gives you the correct answer. 2% of the time, the deity tells you that it doesn't know. Explicitly. 9% of the time, you get a lie, and 1% of the time, you get a random answer (probably falling under "yes," "no," or "unknown").
By using COP multiple times and asking questions about questions about questions (in other words, questions pertaining to the accuracy of questions pertaining to the accuracy of...etcetera), you can reduce the chance of getting an incorrect, unknown, or random answer to a very small number based on your patience, your DM's patience, and your free time. Thus, barring extremely improbable circumstances, you are assured of getting a correct, definitive answer, and those four categories define all possible futures for the wizard based on those two parameters.
That said, PBMC, we need to hash out exactly what COP is capable of before we devise a method of beating it.
-
Also, third eye (whatevertheheck) makes it impossible to lie to you. So the probability of failure goes down to 0%.
-
Also, third eye (whatevertheheck) makes it impossible to lie to you. So the probability of failure goes down to 0%.
Well, apart from the possibilities of unknown answers and maybe random answers. (Does a random answer count as a lie all the time, even if it's true, or only if the deity picks an incorrect answer, or not at all?)
-
Also, third eye (whatevertheheck) makes it impossible to lie to you. So the probability of failure goes down to 0%.
Third eye Expose, the XPH version as the MIC version only gives a +5 to sense motive.
-
By using COP multiple times and asking questions about questions about questions (in other words, questions pertaining to the accuracy of questions pertaining to the accuracy of...etcetera), you can reduce the chance of getting an incorrect, unknown, or random answer to a very small number based on your patience, your DM's patience, and your free time. Thus, barring extremely improbable circumstances, you are assured of getting a correct, definitive answer, and those four categories define all possible futures for the wizard based on those two parameters.
Uh...
Are you using a different version of Contact Other Plane? The one I'm reading says,
All questions are answered with yes, no, maybe, never, irrelevant, or some other one-word answer.
In addition to the fact that the contactee RESENTS the contact.
So, presume always 100% correct answer to your questions, pertaining to future. What answers do you get if you're being tricky?
"maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe" and "maybe".
...as well as a lightning bolt from clear sky, most likely.
Admittedly, it's a very definitive maybe.
-
We went over that. Divine Wrath and grudges and vengeance are all DM fiat only options.
-
By using COP multiple times and asking questions about questions about questions (in other words, questions pertaining to the accuracy of questions pertaining to the accuracy of...etcetera), you can reduce the chance of getting an incorrect, unknown, or random answer to a very small number based on your patience, your DM's patience, and your free time. Thus, barring extremely improbable circumstances, you are assured of getting a correct, definitive answer, and those four categories define all possible futures for the wizard based on those two parameters.
Uh...
Are you using a different version of Contact Other Plane? The one I'm reading says,
All questions are answered with yes, no, maybe, never, irrelevant, or some other one-word answer.
In addition to the fact that the contactee RESENTS the contact.
So, presume always 100% correct answer to your questions, pertaining to future. What answers do you get if you're being tricky?
"maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe" and "maybe".
...as well as a lightning bolt from clear sky, most likely.
Admittedly, it's a very definitive maybe.
You also don't have to ask the same dude all the time. And yeah, this is all the DM being bitchy, which has nothing to do with actual game mechanics.
-
By using COP multiple times and asking questions about questions about questions (in other words, questions pertaining to the accuracy of questions pertaining to the accuracy of...etcetera), you can reduce the chance of getting an incorrect, unknown, or random answer to a very small number based on your patience, your DM's patience, and your free time. Thus, barring extremely improbable circumstances, you are assured of getting a correct, definitive answer, and those four categories define all possible futures for the wizard based on those two parameters.
Uh...
Are you using a different version of Contact Other Plane? The one I'm reading says,
All questions are answered with yes, no, maybe, never, irrelevant, or some other one-word answer.
In addition to the fact that the contactee RESENTS the contact.
So, presume always 100% correct answer to your questions, pertaining to future. What answers do you get if you're being tricky?
"maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe" and "maybe".
...as well as a lightning bolt from clear sky, most likely.
Admittedly, it's a very definitive maybe.
Some other one word answer
-
We went over that. Divine Wrath and grudges and vengeance are all DM fiat only options.
Not the point. Besides, upsetting deities IS in fact in the spell description.
The point is, there is absolutely nothing that forces a yes or no answer out of the deity called.
-
"If I had a perfect machine that predicted the future accurately, only returning true steaments, and gave me a 1 if the answer to my question was yes, and a 0 if the answer was no, what number would it give me if I asked it X"
-
"If I had a perfect machine that predicted the future accurately, only returning true steaments, and gave me a 1 if the answer to my question was yes, and a 0 if the answer was no, what number would it give me if I asked it X"
that's better.
-
"If I had a perfect machine that predicted the future accurately, only returning true steaments, and gave me a 1 if the answer to my question was yes, and a 0 if the answer was no, what number would it give me if I asked it X"
well, depending on your question, this might be an issue, but i still like it:
inconclusive
-
"If I had a perfect machine that predicted the future accurately, only returning true steaments, and gave me a 1 if the answer to my question was yes, and a 0 if the answer was no, what number would it give me if I asked it X"
the answer is always 42. Now time to build a machine to find the question. :P
-
"If I had a perfect machine that predicted the future accurately, only returning true steaments, and gave me a 1 if the answer to my question was yes, and a 0 if the answer was no, what number would it give me if I asked it X"
Well, seeing as how you don't have one, the answer is "irrelevant"
-
"If I had a perfect machine that predicted the future accurately, only returning true steaments, and gave me a 1 if the answer to my question was yes, and a 0 if the answer was no, what number would it give me if I asked it X"
Well, seeing as how you don't have one, the answer is "irrelevant"
Irrelevant to what? You asked a question. The answer to a question is relevant to the question by being an answer. The fact that the question is hypothetical doesn't make the answer somehow irrelevant. Inconclusive, maybe, but don't forget that the deities in question can literally see weeks into the future.
-
Uh...
Are you using a different version of Contact Other Plane? The one I'm reading says,
All questions are answered with yes, no, maybe, never, irrelevant, or some other one-word answer.
In addition to the fact that the contactee RESENTS the contact.
So, presume always 100% correct answer to your questions, pertaining to future. What answers do you get if you're being tricky?
"maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe" and "maybe".
...as well as a lightning bolt from clear sky, most likely.
Admittedly, it's a very definitive maybe.
That's DM fiat. Yes, the answer "Maybe" to the question "Are my car keys at work?" is technically a correct answer, but there's absolutely no reason, outside of "quit casting COP, it's pissing off the DM" that you shouldn't receive a helpful answer. If you eliminate the statistical chance of failure for the spell, then the only valid reason your true, one-word answer is completely unhelpful is because the DM doesn't want it to be helpful. Likewise, the only reason it's helpful is because the DM allows it to be helpful.
-
"If I had a perfect machine that predicted the future accurately, only returning true steaments, and gave me a 1 if the answer to my question was yes, and a 0 if the answer was no, what number would it give me if I asked it X"
Well, seeing as how you don't have one, the answer is "irrelevant"
I'm sorry, the hypothetical machine doesn't have an irrelevant output.
-
"maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe", "maybe" and "maybe".
Some other one word answer
Possibly, perchance, perhaps, mayhap, peradventure.
Edit
Or better yet. Some other being defined as not being yes, now, could be, and that's a dumb question and instead some off the wall answer.
"I", "Like", "Pie."
-
none of which are possible outputs for my hypothetical machine.
-
none of which are possible outputs for my hypothetical machine.
your error is that you are not using said machine, but asking a deity what the hypothetical answer is. the deity can still give you silly answers.
-
Which wouldn't be correct answers.
-
Which wouldn't be correct answers.
integer.
there's your answer.
-
Which wouldn't be correct answers.
integer.
there's your answer.
But the machine won't say 'integer'. It would say an integer, sure, but that isn't a possible answer.
-
Which wouldn't be correct answers.
integer.
there's your answer.
But the machine won't say 'integer'. It would say an integer, sure, but that isn't a possible answer.
you asked the deity what the machine would say, and the deity tells you the machine gives you an integer. remember, all your answers get filtered through the asshole god. it is important to remember that you are hearing the machine's answer second hand, and he may screw you over.
-
none of which are possible outputs for my hypothetical machine.
You know I had no idea what would ever prompt a return answer of irrelevant. Even the most crazy questions are relevant for their desired answers and no topic is ever established to try saying question #2 has no bearing based on what you were asking about with question #1.
But then I remembered what I said.
Hypothetical questions about theoretical worlds receive abstract answers of speculations. It is foolish to think of them as fact.
And I'm going to go with that.
-
also, inconclusive is just as viable here as it is with normal COP.
If you ask your machine a question that, for whatever reason, would come out incoclusive from normal COP, then inserting a hypothetical machine doesn't empower the deity to give you an answer. Like Anklebite said, you're getting the answer secondhand. The deity is using its uberpowerz to figure out what the machine would say. If you ask it a question that the deity couldn't answer truthfully for whatever reason, then it wont be able to figure out what the machine might say.
but against non-inconclusive answers, you're shielded.
-
Yes, and there are questions it could answer something outside of the scope for.
Like "which of the two is the sun made of: cheese, or kittens"
-neither
Or
"which lucky rabbit's foot will make my chances to win the lottery the greatest?" (when the lottery is rigged to be won by the mayor's son)
-Irrelevant
Or
"If I pick one of chocolate, nuts, free movie passes, a children's card game, or fifteen cans of sprite X-treme to give as a gift, will Vecna make out with me?"
-Maybe
As is, the deity isn't trying to lie to you, so that isn't the case.
And if you really want to cover all the cases, just map "any other word" to something.
-
The thing is, the deity does not know what the hypothetical machine would answer, unless they presume to know the answer themselves. If there truly is only one timeline that may happen, the PCS cannot oppose it. If there isn't, the answer is always uncertain.
In fact, I would presume a machine which forces the answer to yes-or-no format would be more likely to give the WRONG answer as an artifact of it's processing.
It seems similar to the old question, "If I give the machine the wrong input will I still get the correct answer?" and we all know how that goes.
-
They know the correct answer if you roll low. That's how the spell works.
-
Only if it's a question that can be answered. If the deity you're contacting is actually CAPABLE of answering the question.
*sigh*
This spell... combine with "What is the truename of X?" questions...
-
They know the correct answer if you roll low. That's how the spell works.
Right. Which is why all this other stuff people have been spewing is bullshit. You roll the dice. If they say you get a correct answer, then you get a fucking correct answer, unless your DM is a cowardly douchebage who fudges the rules and dice rolls just to screw you over, instead of house ruling the fucking spell. And we're going to ignore that kind of shit, because we're talking about hypothetical "What-if's" according to the goddamned rules. So the spell works as written.
I can't believe what a fucking derail this has been. The OP has repeatedly told you guys to knock it off about COP, and yet here this stupid argument is still going on for pages and pages.
-
The OP has repeatedly told you guys to knock it off about COP, and yet here this stupid argument is still going on for pages and pages.
Probably because the spell seems to invite house rules and DM modifications due to its overpowered nature and its flavor of interacting with gods. This makes it hard for people to have a consistent understanding of what the spell actually does as the spell basically has an invitation for DM fiat written into the spell with the whole "answers may be blocked when the gods or cosmic forces say so" line.
-
my solution in games I run:
-you can't take 10.
-certain gods will troll the shit out of you.
-remember the gentlemen's agreement and cut this shit out.
there's your house rules.
trying to play 3.5 purely by RAW and no gentlemen's agreement is a poor idea if your players have half a brain.
-
The OP has repeatedly told you guys to knock it off about COP, and yet here this stupid argument is still going on for pages and pages.
And it will always continue as it is the trump card of a poster to claim he is always right. That's all there is to it.
Tangent rant about the double standard.
[spoiler]This makes it hard for people to have a consistent understanding of what the spell actually does as the spell basically has an invitation for DM fiat written into the spell,
90% of the wizards so call uber powers is based on acting within a campaign. Genesis, COP, Binding, Simulacrum, etc. are all the same thing and are used in the same way on the forums. They all toss any and all possibility of resistance out the window and presume the "campaign" is favored able to them.
Example (at the 3rd level)
1. You buy a cow and a scroll of Flesh To Salt and cast the spell on the cow.
2. You find someone selling a bunch of high level scrolls and pick them up.
3. You cast a Magic Circle Against Evil, an Extended Dimensional Anchor, then Greater Planar Binding.
4. You then steal a toenail from it and send it back.
5. You spend the next 12 hours casting Simulacrum.
6. Behold, you are uber!
There is a lot of assumptions made there.
1A. You find the scroll, the world isn't in your control and that is the DM realm.
1B. You sell the salt, again both the seller's existence and desire to buy the salt is up to the DM.
2. Again, the world has maggy mart or a vendor willing to take orders from you.
3. How are you extending the anchor anyway?
3A. How did you beat the SR check?
3B. And it failed it's save?
4A. As a wizard, your charisma probably sucks like hell yet you compelled it to let you close enough to trim it's claws?
4B. Why doesn't the creature summon you? GPB's point out aside theres always a chance of retaliation that got ignored.
5. And theres plenty of time to do it.
6A. You're not uber, your creature is. It has 9HD (GPB limit is 18, then halved) but may be of a higher CR and/or have LA attached.
6B. The DM continues pitting you against CR 3 monsters rather than CR 5+ that you should be, some of which capable of TPKing the party normally aka the end result kills you rather than makes you more powerful.
Every bit of that above is "Player Fiat". Everyone one of them is ignored with some lame excuse like; someone(s) will buy the salt, someone(s) will craft my scrolls for money, I'll recast the spells until they roll a 1 on their save, I'll summon a nice creature for a manicure, no one wants to harm me, RAW my summons don't count (and they don't but minions do, see any villain encounter) and so on. The moment someone says COP fails due to any one of butt loads of in game reasons such as an NPC using the same assumptions convinced a deity to block COPs about him someone yells stfu it's DM fiat.
Well :fo too, Player Fiat can goto hell.[/spoiler]
***
Srsly though.
Hypothetical questions about theoretical worlds receive abstract answers of speculations. It is foolish to think of them as fact. Says everything.
The topic of COP has slowly out of relying on gods to see the future as "True Answer" being able to force whatever you contact into providing the correct answer. Well answers are dependent on the source you contact and that is something you cannot argue against and the spell also states there can be no true answer if they don't know which again is unarguable. You can ask if "Bob were to know you used a Dire Turtle is he going to sneak up on you" all you want in any form. The contacted deity cannot foresee the nonexistent future on this made up world and is therefor guessing on the motives and ideas of people involved to create an answer it has no idea on.
Specifically at TML, there are hypothetical questions asked in a binary way that creates solution. All pretenses you have done with your so called questions are built on ignoring the fact the source must know the answer and concentrating on "True Answer" in all your current arguments.
-
Ok, here is the COPless wizard, that doesn't need a demiplane to kick your ass.
He has:
1) Uncanny Forethought. He leaves most of his high level spell slots open to use with this. So he can basically cast any spell in his book spontaneously.
2) Celerity
3) Several Belts of Battle and Chronocharms of the Uncaring Archmage that he swaps out when needed.
4) Foresight, Shapechange -> Minotaur, or a Legacy item that lets him act while flatfooted
5) He has the giant shrunken hat to block most AMFs.
6) He always preps one Invoke Magic, just in case.
7) He has a Contingency that goes off if he is ever unable to act for any reason. This Plane Shifts him to the Astral Plane. He has ranks in Use Magic Device and uses a cleric scroll to cast Plane Shift as a 5th level spell to use it on. This is shared with his familiar, which can use wands to remove whatever stasis effects are on him.
8) He has Dragonsight on him 24/7 for continuous Blindsense out to a long range.
9) His pseudodragon familiar has Mindsight.
His tactics are:
1) Go first via Celerity
2) Cast Time Stop (maximized via a MM Rod)
3) Shapechange into a Chronotryn for duel actions
4) He has 9 spells to cast, not counting Quickened ones, before Timestop ends. They can be any spells in his spellbook, which contains every spell that matters in D&D.
His hat and Invoke Magic should get him out of any AMFs that he finds himself in. His Contingency takes care of any case where someone catches him with his pants down.
-
Ok, here is the COPless wizard, that doesn't need a demiplane to kick your ass.
1) Uncanny Forethought. He leaves most of his high level spell slots open to use with this. So he can basically cast any spell in his book spontaneously.
2) Celerity
3) Several Belts of Battle and Chronocharms of the Uncaring Archmage that he swaps out when needed.
4) Foresight, Shapechange -> Minotaur, or a Legacy item that lets him act while flatfooted
5) He has the giant shrunken hat to block most AMFs.
6) He always preps one Invoke Magic, just in case.
7) He has a Contingency that goes off if he is ever unable to act for any reason. This Plane Shifts him to the Astral Plane. He has ranks in Use Magic Device and uses a cleric scroll to cast Plane Shift as a 5th level spell to use it on. This is shared with his familiar, which can use wands to remove whatever stasis effects are on him.
8) He has Dragonsight on him 24/7 for continuous Blindsense out to a long range.
9) His pseudodragon familiar has Mindsight.
That is where the attention should be. How to beat a wizard using those rather than pages apon pages of arguing about TO material.
2/3) Belt of Battle buys you one counter, however you must win initiative since you can only use it on your turn.
Wizzs have nerveskitter for a +10 advantage, anyone way to make this up?
4) Dire Turtle is more problematic due to requiring the jump on someone.
Cunning only makes it easier and comes down to simple initiative.
5) Can be broken in one move action assuming pounce/battle jump.
Even in an AMF too.
6) Dunno what that spell does, is that the AMF bypasser?
7) Contingency without COP breaks into a generic use defense rather than trump card.
I like the one you had your your wizard though unable to act covers a lot of things. Any other good suggestions that it would be used for?
9) Mindsight is problematic.
Chances of people agreeing it relies on telepathy or creating a 12 page argument it doesn't?
-
5) Can be broken in one move action assuming pounce/battle jump.
Even in an AMF too.
6) Dunno what that spell does, is that the AMF bypasser?
5. A trick there is you could have several of them in layers like those Russian nesting dolls, that cannot be broken through with a single round of actions without magic.
6. Yes, it allows you to cast one spell of 4th level or lower in an AMF.
-
I'm sick of this "breaking the hat" bullshit. from now on, our wizard wears a riverine hairnet underneath his adamantine tinfoil hat.
break that.
-
Having Invoke Magic doesn't necessarily mean you will get out of an antimagic field.
If the offensive wizard was able to get you within one in the first place there's a good chance he has a few extra actions available to him so when you try to cast invoke magic hell simply use one of his extra actions to interrupt your spellcasting. Which, of course, means that you are still screwed.
That's why I always say its not necessarily about what you can do to prevent certain situations its merely how many actions you have available to you. Usually, the only way the offensive wizard will get the defensive wizard in the AMF in the first place is by out meta-managing him. Since the offensive wizard was able to get the defending wizard into the AMF (assumed for the sake of argument here) he will easily be able to out meta-manage him on actions since the defending wizard is now deprived of his action-generating capabilities.
Likewise, foresight will not always save you. If the offensive wizard has foresight as well it becomes a battle of initiative because the defending wizard can attempt to celerity/time stop but if the offensive wizard responds with a celerity to prevent this then all that really matters is who goes first; in other words, the offensive wizard should always win in this situation (barring uses of contingency/craft contingent spell madness).
So I think you need to add craft contingent spell onto your list because its really the only conceivable thing that can break the action economy enough to out meta-manage the offensive wizard, and this is assuming the offensive wizard wasn't prepared to counter your crafted contingencies with his own crafted contingencies.
To sum this all up...there is no "beat-all" strategy. It all comes down to theoretical preparedness involving crafted contingencies.
-
6) Dunno what that spell does, is that the AMF bypasser?
Yes.
I should also give the familiar a wand of Celerity, just to be safe, and share whatever it is that keeps him from being flat-footed. ;)
offensive wizard
There is no offensive wizard. You keep bringing this up, but the entire point is to try beating a "wizard" with a non-wizard, and preferably non-caster even.
And I omitted Craft Contingent Spell because it is stupendously broken, and so fucking complicated when you have two people with 20 each that I don't even want to think about it.
-
Well :fo too, Player Fiat can goto hell.
This is pretty true. I am pretty darn close to that neutral DM who lets players do what they want to do. I have never, ever had a player accuse me of railroading. But I also ask that players actually play the game and warn them that my campaigns aren't a cakewalk. All my house rules are either specific to a campaign or they are generic fixes. Players know like begets like (if they start throwing disjunctions, I will too).
I can't believe what a fucking derail this has been. The OP has repeatedly told you guys to knock it off about COP, and yet here this stupid argument is still going on for pages and pages.
TY PXY. So basically if I say COP shouldn't be an issue its because my player will not want to use it. Can you imagine a BBEG that uses COP against you? Who thinks that's fair?
Ok, here is the COPless wizard, that doesn't need a demiplane to kick your ass.
GJ. Clearly high tier but no cheese. These are the wizards an antimage might actually meet around in a campaign world rather than sit in a demiplane COPing themselves to brain-death.
There is no offensive wizard. You keep bringing this up, but the entire point is to try beating a "wizard" with a non-wizard, and preferably non-caster even.
And I omitted Craft Contingent Spell because it is stupendously broken, and so fucking complicated when you have two people with 20 each that I don't even want to think about it.
+1
I'd like everyone else to chant this to yourself as you post. Consider it a thread mantra: Homebrew Non-Casting Class Survives Casters. I don't care about hunting. I don't care about killing. I'd say with the combined intellect of this board we can at least fight to a draw any mildly optimized non-TO wizard.
Homebrew Non-Casting Class Survives Casters. Homebrew Non-Casting Class Survives Casters. Homebrew Non-Casting Class Survives Casters.
What I was going to say:[spoiler]
If the offensive wizard...
That's why I always say its not necessarily about what you can do to prevent certain situations its merely how many actions you have available to you. Usually, the only way the offensive wizard will get
I think you need to add craft contingent spell onto your list...
Its harder and its easier. No full casting but whatever homebrew abilities for the antimage class we deem necessary.
Even the last thread didn't worry about those. I would prefer we consider it a far edge thing to worry about last. Perhaps the homebrew we create for other things will work for this too. Mine did.[/spoiler]
-
Anyway, as a downside for anticaster feats (to discourage casters from taking them), how about a stacking reality loss for magic cast on/by you.
Like each feat gives a -5% or something.
-
I'm sick of this "breaking the hat" bullshit. from now on, our wizard wears a riverine hairnet underneath his adamantine tinfoil hat.
break that.
Why? It's immune to shrink item and too small to care about.
Also, if you want to go with it's not immune to shrink item then I'll go with it's not immune to antimagic and it spills on the floor anyway.
Also, still not convinced on the hat at all.
Say the cone hat is a circle, becuase cone's are too hard for my simple brain to deal with, at five feet tall and wide and one foot thick the entire thing is 1924 pounds (http://www.jindalstainless.com/toolkit/weight-calculator.html) if it were steel and adamantine's weight isn't mentioned. @30str a medium creature can pick up 1,600lbs over their head, pick up and hold 3,200lbs as "overloaded" and push/pull 8,000lbs. of mass.
I really don't care if it was immune to damage or not as I'm too busy thinking of weather or not smashing the wizard to pulp with a large cylinder of adamantine dropped on his head would make me look bad assed or not.
-
I'm sick of this "breaking the hat" bullshit. from now on, our wizard wears a riverine hairnet underneath his adamantine tinfoil hat.
break that.
Why? It's immune to shrink item and too small to care about.
Also, if you want to go with it's not immune to shrink item then I'll go with it's not immune to antimagic and it spills on the floor anyway.
Also, still not convinced on the hat at all.
Say the cone hat is a circle, becuase cone's are too hard for my simple brain to deal with, at five feet tall and wide and one foot thick the entire thing is 1924 pounds (http://www.jindalstainless.com/toolkit/weight-calculator.html) if it were steel and adamantine's weight isn't mentioned. @30str a medium creature can pick up 1,600lbs over their head, pick up and hold 3,200lbs as "overloaded" and push/pull 8,000lbs. of mass.
I really don't care if it was immune to damage or not as I'm too busy thinking of weather or not smashing the wizard to pulp with a large cylinder of adamantine dropped on his head would make me look bad assed or not.
wall of force functions in an antimagic field. therefor, the riverine does not explode(it's water from the depths of the ocean, it has a pretty high amount of pressure).
-
I'm sick of this "breaking the hat" bullshit. from now on, our wizard wears a riverine hairnet underneath his adamantine tinfoil hat.
break that.
Why? It's immune to shrink item and too small to care about.
Also, if you want to go with it's not immune to shrink item then I'll go with it's not immune to antimagic and it spills on the floor anyway.
Also, still not convinced on the hat at all.
Say the cone hat is a circle, becuase cone's are too hard for my simple brain to deal with, at five feet tall and wide and one foot thick the entire thing is 1924 pounds (http://www.jindalstainless.com/toolkit/weight-calculator.html) if it were steel and adamantine's weight isn't mentioned. @30str a medium creature can pick up 1,600lbs over their head, pick up and hold 3,200lbs as "overloaded" and push/pull 8,000lbs. of mass.
I really don't care if it was immune to damage or not as I'm too busy thinking of weather or not smashing the wizard to pulp with a large cylinder of adamantine dropped on his head would make me look bad assed or not.
Jesus Christ you guys get caught up on some stupid, irrelevant shit. Dont' make it a fucking hat, then. Make it a big tower shield. Or a Wall of Iron that he wears as a fucking necktie, and its tied on a non-magical piece of string that breaks when it starts to grow. Or a fucking burka. It doesn't matter, as long as it blocks Line of Effect when he gets hit with an AMF.
And it doesn't fucking matter if you sunder it, either, because in the split second after it deploys, before you get a chance to hit it, the wizard casts Celerity and Time Stop, and then fucking kills you.
-
I think the adamantine hat is silly, but it is a valid strategy. Like was mentioned up thread AMF waterballons will work. You could shrink item another adamantie cone hat, tape it to an AMF arrow and fire that at the Wizard. Arrow hits, two cones appear and squeeze the Wizard between them. You could shrink item oversized adamantine clogs into normal shoes, get close to the Wizard, AMF the hat drops but your shoes grow leaving a gap for the AMF to get through.
So there are options.
One thing that comes to my mind is there are different classes of TO Wizard. The most abusive can basically become Pun-Pun, become immune to everything and is not worth talking about. The next being the standard TO Wizard, we don't even know if this guy is even beatable by another player character. Then there is some Wizard, lets say W that only a Wizard has a chance at beating, there are Wizards C and Ps that a Cheater of Mystra and a Planar Shepard might beat, respectively. Does W = C = Ps, do any of those equal TO? We have no idea.
What the OP wanted I think was a set of constraints such that any Wizard is constrained to F, such that some Fighter has a non-zero chance of beating the Wizard. We can be pretty sure that F<min(W,C,Ps) because it Fighters can't replicate the abilities of any one of those classes.
We should ban COP-out and craft contingent spell, because there are no explicit RAW ways for a Fighter to counter them, thus they exist in some class greater than F. I think we need to ask if we need to ban Celerity+Foresight or the Dire Tortoise shenanigans because they seem unbeatable by nearly anyone.
-
As was mentioned earlier readied actions seem to be the way to go in this area. And it is key to remember that the wizard only has one immediate action per round. If we can find some way to keep the wizard from killing the opponent with an instants thought we might have somewhere to go. But we are still sending someone who can hit people really hard against someone who can make it so you never existed in effectively less time than it takes a warrior to swing his sword.
Also for the antimagic hat (or any other garment that surrounds him) issues the wizard could were several of them so even if the warrior can do enough damage without magic to break the obdurium (which assuming the shield thing is 5 inches thick would require a total of 300 points of damage after a hardness of 30), they would not be able to do this for more than 5 of these items because warriors cannot get more attacks than that and get the necessary damage to punch through in a non-magical environment.
-
Can't we debunk "Foresight" as a buff with a reminder that an item of Mindblank defeats it?
I understand it's an uphill battle "both ways" with a "non-full caster" against a full caster but a lot of stuff being mentioned simply does not apply outside of TO or even in the simplest of games.
Also I love the clogs>hat.
-
As was mentioned earlier readied actions seem to be the way to go in this area. And it is key to remember that the wizard only has one immediate action per round. If we can find some way to keep the wizard from killing the opponent with an instants thought we might have somewhere to go. But we are still sending someone who can hit people really hard against someone who can make it so you never existed in effectively less time than it takes a warrior to swing his sword.
Also for the antimagic hat (or any other garment that surrounds him) issues the wizard could were several of them so even if the warrior can do enough damage without magic to break the obdurium (which assuming the shield thing is 5 inches thick would require a total of 300 points of damage after a hardness of 30), they would not be able to do this for more than 5 of these items because warriors cannot get more attacks than that and get the necessary damage to punch through in a non-magical environment.
Is Time stands still supernatural? away from my books atm
-
As was mentioned earlier readied actions seem to be the way to go in this area. And it is key to remember that the wizard only has one immediate action per round. If we can find some way to keep the wizard from killing the opponent with an instants thought we might have somewhere to go. But we are still sending someone who can hit people really hard against someone who can make it so you never existed in effectively less time than it takes a warrior to swing his sword.
Also for the antimagic hat (or any other garment that surrounds him) issues the wizard could were several of them so even if the warrior can do enough damage without magic to break the obdurium (which assuming the shield thing is 5 inches thick would require a total of 300 points of damage after a hardness of 30), they would not be able to do this for more than 5 of these items because warriors cannot get more attacks than that and get the necessary damage to punch through in a non-magical environment.
Is Time stands still supernatural? away from my books atm
can't really trigger battle jump with time stands still.
-
Can't we debunk "Foresight" as a buff with a reminder that an item of Mindblank defeats it?
I understand it's an uphill battle "both ways" with a "non-full caster" against a full caster but a lot of stuff being mentioned simply does not apply outside of TO or even in the simplest of games.
You still shouldn't be flat-footed, even if your attacker has Mindblank. The spell can still tell you you're going to be attacked, just not who is doing it.
Also I love the clogs>hat.
Me too. I thought that was ingenious the first time I saw it. I forgot who posted that build. It was hilarious, though.
-
I'm sick of this "breaking the hat" bullshit. from now on, our wizard wears a riverine hairnet underneath his adamantine tinfoil hat.
break that.
@30str a medium creature can pick up 1,600lbs over their head, pick up and hold 3,200lbs as "overloaded" and push/pull 8,000lbs. of mass.
1. Jesus Christ you guys get caught up on some stupid, irrelevant shit. Dont' make it a fucking hat, then. Make it a big tower shield. Or a Wall of Iron that he wears as a fucking necktie, and its tied on a non-magical piece of string that breaks when it starts to grow. Or a fucking burka. It doesn't matter, as long as it blocks Line of Effect when he gets hit with an AMF.
2. And it doesn't fucking matter if you sunder it, either, because in the split second after it deploys, before you get a chance to hit it, the wizard casts Celerity and Time Stop, and then fucking kills you.
1. Someone thinks a shrunken hat anything solves their problems so it is relevant. Also make it whatever you want, anything less than 8,000lbs gets shoved out of the way and anything not fully enveloping the wizard gets walked around (or dug under for yet another glaring weakness in the hat).
2. It does matter. The ideal scenario the wizard already cast celerity thus has no immediate actions after you try to AMF him. Again relevant.
Also for the antimagic hat (or any other garment that surrounds him) issues the wizard could were several of them so even if the warrior can do enough damage without magic to break the obdurium (which assuming the shield thing is 5 inches thick would require a total of 300 points of damage after a hardness of 30), they would not be able to do this for more than 5 of these items because warriors cannot get more attacks than that and get the necessary damage to punch through in a non-magical environment.
I posted a weak consideration that has room for improvement for a charger in an AMF that deals 400 damage after hardness using a move action. Didn't care to improve on that since it takes a foot thick slab of adamantine to have 400hp. Layers is something I'm going to ignore, you don't shave off the metal strips in an enforced stone wall, you don't attack each brick, you don't attack the window pane or shutters or door frame. Total thickness is enough.
Now admitably Hardened Obdurium is a problem, I knew that when I crunched numbers, and it's taken this long for someone to think outside of the box on the wizard's side rather taking their crummy tactic for granted so cudos to you. But I'm still not done, I've mentioned breaking it, picking it up /pushing it over, walking/flying/digging under it etc., and an unmentioned part that an activated antimagic torc glued to an arrow clears the 10ft faster than gravity can pull the wall down so theres still a bit to go. Assuming people want to continue on the hat portion of the topic of course.
-
There is also that maneuver that ignores hardness. Or having a Burrow Speed.
-
There is also that maneuver that ignores hardness. Or having a Burrow Speed.
Or being a ghost. :P
-
Incorporeal Undead wink out in an AMF. Probably not a good idea here.
-
chupoclops or phase mantle?
-
chupoclops or phase mantle?
They are supernatural so they do not work in an AMF.
Layers is something I'm going to ignore, you don't shave off the metal strips in an enforced stone wall, you don't attack each brick, you don't attack the window pane or shutters or door frame. Total thickness is enough.
and an unmentioned part that an activated antimagic torc glued to an arrow clears the 10ft faster than gravity can pull the wall down so theres still a bit to go.
You misunderstood the part about layers. The wizard would be wearing multiple shrunken items to block AMFs, so even if you managed to pry one off him of smash it an new one would just pop up and cover the wizard again. Given that a fighter type has extremely limited actions per round in an antimagic field that would render most tactics to getting rid of the hat null and void. But things like the shrunken clogs would work still. Although it would make it very hard to get at the wizard even him being in an AMF.
About the arrow bit, would that not be subject to the 50% chance of arrow breakage, if so you would need multiple ones, which might be a good idea anyway? And even if it was wouldn't it just activate the hats so the wizard is protected and he can take a bit of time just turning the torc off.
A good idea to give the fighter type a slight advantage would be the boots of temporal acceleration, which would give him two rounds of time stop. He could then get right next to the wizard and activate the AMF so he would be inside the cone with the wizard.
-
Incorporeal Undead wink out in an AMF. Probably not a good idea here.
Interesting. Nice for the wizard. AMF? i guess i'll just disappear until it goes away. :D
-
Incorporeal Undead wink out in an AMF. Probably not a good idea here.
Interesting. Nice for the wizard. AMF? i guess i'll just disappear until it goes away. :D
Dangerous because of the ability to "set up"
-
Incorporeal Undead wink out in an AMF. Probably not a good idea here.
Interesting. Nice for the wizard. AMF? i guess i'll just disappear until it goes away. :D
Dangerous because of the ability to "set up"
But the contingent teleport for when you re-appear takes you back to your fortress where your have some form of scrying readily available. Your back 2 turns later and they can't set you up.
-
Incorporeal Undead wink out in an AMF. Probably not a good idea here.
Interesting. Nice for the wizard. AMF? i guess i'll just disappear until it goes away. :D
Dangerous because of the ability to "set up"
But the contingent teleport for when you re-appear takes you back to your fortress where your have some form of scrying readily available. Your back 2 turns later and they can't set you up.
The antimage has a readied action for this. his buddy has one for when you reappear, he has one for when you contingency goes off.
The Antimage has a readied action for this. His buddy has one to attack you when you reappear, he has one to attack you when the contingecy
-
Incorporeal Undead wink out in an AMF. Probably not a good idea here.
Interesting. Nice for the wizard. AMF? i guess i'll just disappear until it goes away. :D
Dangerous because of the ability to "set up"
But the contingent teleport for when you re-appear takes you back to your fortress where your have some form of scrying readily available. Your back 2 turns later and they can't set you up.
The antimage has a readied action for this. his buddy has one for when you reappear, he has one for when you contingency goes off.
The Antimage has a readied action for this. His buddy has one to attack you when you reappear, he has one to attack you when the contingecy
But the contingency goes of the instant I reappear, so He can't hit me.
-
you fail to see that the antimage could permanently defeat the wizard by leaving a rock of permanent AMF at your location.
game? over.
-
you fail to see that the antimage could permanently defeat the wizard by leaving a rock of permanent AMF at your location.
game? over.
you fail to see that the antimage could permanently defeat the wizard by leaving a rock of permanent AMF at your location.
game? over.
unfortunately, at some point, even if it takes a million years, the rock will be moved by something.
and we will be back.
-
you fail to see that the antimage could permanently defeat the wizard by leaving a rock of permanent AMF at your location.
game? over.
you fail to see that the antimage could permanently defeat the wizard by leaving a rock of permanent AMF at your location.
game? over.
unfortunately, at some point, even if it takes a million years, the rock will be moved by something.
and we will be back.
yeah, but the antimage doesn't care. for his purposes, you are no longer a problem.
and in the case of a warforged or elan antimage, he could maintain the eternal prison between the millennia. yes, it will end some time after the antimage dies somehow; but why should he care?
-
you fail to see that the antimage could permanently defeat the wizard by leaving a rock of permanent AMF at your location.
game? over.
you fail to see that the antimage could permanently defeat the wizard by leaving a rock of permanent AMF at your location.
game? over.
unfortunately, at some point, even if it takes a million years, the rock will be moved by something.
and we will be back.
yeah, but the antimage doesn't care. for his purposes, you are no longer a problem.
and in the case of a warforged or elan antimage, he could maintain the eternal prison between the millennia. yes, it will end some time after the antimage dies somehow; but why should he care?
How do you get a rock of AMF?
-
you fail to see that the antimage could permanently defeat the wizard by leaving a rock of permanent AMF at your location.
game? over.
you fail to see that the antimage could permanently defeat the wizard by leaving a rock of permanent AMF at your location.
game? over.
unfortunately, at some point, even if it takes a million years, the rock will be moved by something.
and we will be back.
yeah, but the antimage doesn't care. for his purposes, you are no longer a problem.
and in the case of a warforged or elan antimage, he could maintain the eternal prison between the millennia. yes, it will end some time after the antimage dies somehow; but why should he care?
Because the wizard will remember who did this. and he will have revenge. Warforged might not ORDINARILY feel pain, but incarnate construct can make them feel it.
-
"rock of AMF" really just means "continuous item of AMF" that looks like a rock or something. doesn't really matter.
the point is, the warforged doesn't care anymore once he is dead and gone. until then, he keeps the prison working. once the warforged is ready to move on to the afterlife, the wizard is going to have a really hard time trying to punish him.
-
"rock of AMF" really just means "continuous item of AMF" that looks like a rock or something. doesn't really matter.
:looloo
Your forgetting magic items don't work in an AMF.
-
"rock of AMF" really just means "continuous item of AMF" that looks like a rock or something. doesn't really matter.
:looloo
Your forgetting magic items don't work in an AMF.
There is already a magic item of AMF in print.
-
"rock of AMF" really just means "continuous item of AMF" that looks like a rock or something. doesn't really matter.
:looloo
Your forgetting magic items don't work in an AMF.
by that logic, casting AMF is recursive.
-
"rock of AMF" really just means "continuous item of AMF" that looks like a rock or something. doesn't really matter.
the point is, the warforged doesn't care anymore once he is dead and gone. until then, he keeps the prison working. once the warforged is ready to move on to the afterlife, the wizard is going to have a really hard time trying to punish him.
True. If they were living we could just plane shift to whatever plane they have gone to, but warforged probably don't go anywhere.
Wait. we use Teleport Through Time to go back in time to when they were living, and make them pay.
-
"rock of AMF" really just means "continuous item of AMF" that looks like a rock or something. doesn't really matter.
:looloo
Your forgetting magic items don't work in an AMF.
by that logic, casting AMF is recursive.
No because It appears just after you finish the spell, and is not affected by AMF for the same reason the golems aren't. However the item would not work, as magic item fail in an AMF.
-
No because It appears just after you finish the spell, and is not affected by AMF for the same reason the golems aren't. However the item would not work, as magic item fail in an AMF.
The Anti-Magic Torc is already this item. Do you think this printed item that costs 90k gold is useless?
-
The Anti-Magic Torc is already this item. Do you think this printed item that costs 90k gold is useless?
There might be precedent for a printed item being useless as written, actually. I'll let you know if I remember an example.
-
"rock of AMF" really just means "continuous item of AMF" that looks like a rock or something. doesn't really matter.
:looloo
Your forgetting magic items don't work in an AMF.
by that logic, casting AMF is recursive.
No because It appears just after you finish the spell, and is not affected by AMF for the same reason the golems aren't. However the item would not work, as magic item fail in an AMF.
EDIT: saw a silly flaw in the argument I put here. removed.
-
The Anti-Magic Torc is already this item. Do you think this printed item that costs 90k gold is useless?
There might be precedent for a printed item being useless as written, actually. I'll let you know if I remember an example.
The errata makes it better by Simply having It cast the AMF X times /day
-
such that some Fighter
Forgetting the fact that I don't like fighters...:Homebrew Non-Casting Class Survives Casters. Homebrew Non-Casting Class Survives Casters. Homebrew Non-Casting Class Survives Casters.
you fail to see that the antimage could permanently defeat the wizard by leaving a rock of permanent AMF at your location.
game? over.
unfortunately, at some point, even if it takes a million years, the rock will be moved by something.
and we will be back.
yeah, but the antimage doesn't care. for his purposes, you are no longer a problem.
and in the case of a warforged or elan antimage, he could maintain the eternal prison between the millennia. yes, it will end some time after the antimage dies somehow; but why should he care?
Even though it doesn't concern homebrew class abilities, this is great out-side the box thinking.
Wait. we use Teleport Through Time to go back in time to when they were living, and make them pay.
Oh dear Lord, please tell me he wasn't serious.
-
The errata makes it better by Simply having It cast the AMF X times /day
Ah, wasn't aware of that. Sorry!
-
you fail to see that the antimage could permanently defeat the wizard by leaving a rock of permanent AMF at your location.
game? over.
This is freakin' hilarious. I am definitely going to use this at some point now. :D
-
you fail to see that the antimage could permanently defeat the wizard by leaving a rock of permanent AMF at your location.
game? over.
This is freakin' hilarious. I am definitely going to use this at some point now. :D
If you could somehow get a perminancied wall of force to surround the item they couldn't even move it (could you hire an incantantrix to spell shape the AMF after the wall is up?) is there any way to destroy a wall of force inside an AMF?
-
you fail to see that the antimage could permanently defeat the wizard by leaving a rock of permanent AMF at your location.
game? over.
This is freakin' hilarious. I am definitely going to use this at some point now. :D
If you could somehow get a perminancied wall of force to surround the item they couldn't even move it (could you hire an incantantrix to spell shape the AMF after the wall is up?) is there any way to destroy a wall of force inside an AMF?
Tome material?
-
you fail to see that the antimage could permanently defeat the wizard by leaving a rock of permanent AMF at your location.
game? over.
This is freakin' hilarious. I am definitely going to use this at some point now. :D
If you could somehow get a perminancied wall of force to surround the item they couldn't even move it (could you hire an incantantrix to spell shape the AMF after the wall is up?) is there any way to destroy a wall of force inside an AMF?
Tome material?
A really high escape artist check and a very literal reading of the WoF spell description which can be interpreted to be destroyed if anything passes through it.
-
you fail to see that the antimage could permanently defeat the wizard by leaving a rock of permanent AMF at your location.
game? over.
This is freakin' hilarious. I am definitely going to use this at some point now. :D
If you could somehow get a perminancied wall of force to surround the item they couldn't even move it (could you hire an incantantrix to spell shape the AMF after the wall is up?) is there any way to destroy a wall of force inside an AMF?
A force dragon could remove/destroy the rock.
-
you fail to see that the antimage could permanently defeat the wizard by leaving a rock of permanent AMF at your location.
game? over.
This is freakin' hilarious. I am definitely going to use this at some point now. :D
If you could somehow get a perminancied wall of force to surround the item they couldn't even move it (could you hire an incantantrix to spell shape the AMF after the wall is up?) is there any way to destroy a wall of force inside an AMF?
A force dragon could remove/destroy the rock.
how would a forceward interact with this?
-
Wait. we use Teleport Through Time to go back in time to when they were living, and make them pay.
Oh dear Lord, please tell me he wasn't serious.
Of course not. If that were an option, they would NOT get that AMF in place.
-
you fail to see that the antimage could permanently defeat the wizard by leaving a rock of permanent AMF at your location.
game? over.
This is freakin' hilarious. I am definitely going to use this at some point now. :D
If you could somehow get a perminancied wall of force to surround the item they couldn't even move it (could you hire an incantantrix to spell shape the AMF after the wall is up?) is there any way to destroy a wall of force inside an AMF?
A force dragon could remove/destroy the rock.
The rock wouldn't work because the AMF it creates would deactivate itself.
-
I beleve this was already discussed... besides if the item isn't in an AMF then it can be used and activate AMF and then deactivate and then activate and then deactivate....
-
It might work if the rock contained an extraordinary spell aimed or sculpted AMF with the rock it self being excluded from the AMF.
-
Now that we have had a little break, I'll give the request again. Does anyone have the creativity to homebrew a set of abilities useful for surviving a non-TO full caster?
-
Now that we have had a little break, I'll give the request again. Does anyone have the creativity to homebrew a set of abilities useful for surviving a non-TO full caster?
Well do you prefer a set of feats/spells/equipment that could be integrated into another build, or do you prefer a homebrew class with anti-caster abilities?
-
Maybe if you were a character with infinite spell resistance, the ability to auto-pass every save, immunity to divinations and Mindsight, you had Mettle and Improved Evasion, and an army of similarly statted creatures, you could survive.
-
You don't need half of that.
Rod of Absorption = immune to all SR checking targeted spells, assuming you don't pump your AC to reflect rays back.
Evasion* + Mettle = make your save (see below) and ignore what the rod misses or can't handle, like distinction.
FoM* = immune to nonsavable battle field control spells.
Mind Blank* = immune to everything else.
Immunity to Death Effects & Energy Drain* = Why not?
*all on a legacy tooth for less than 80,000 gold
Now what options are left for the wizard to play offensively assuming people will stop talking about how gate/binding to get someone else to fight for you to make up for your total lack of usefulness fixes their problems? Orb of Force (see below)?
Saving
DC = 10 + at best 9 + 13 (36 int) + what?
2 for icemail armor?
4 for draconic aura?
1 for draconic power?
2 for both cold focus and it's greater?
It's only DC 41.
Saves 1d20+34 = 6 (base) + 5 (resistance) + 1 (luck: luckstone) + 1 (insight: parry) + 6 (sacred: bracers of empyreal armor +6) + 5 (unnamed: spellstrike) + 5 (20 in whatever ability) + 10 (d20 avg) + 5 (unnamed: +5 resilient __ armor, takes an immediate action to use).
35% fail chance factoring nothing but items and a horrid base of 6. Srsly, if you picked up mettle though hexblade the bases will probably be higher and you'll have at least another +5 from charisma. Unless the wizard whips out some down right insanely broken stuff to pump their DC even higher, and I guarantee along that road theres stuff to boost saves too, the wizard's offensive isn't exactly all powerful and barely useful in the save or die suck area.
Orb of ___ spells?
To Hit 30 = 10 (bab) + 10 (30 dex) + 10 (d20 avg)
AC 31 = 10 (base) + 5 (20 dex) + 5 (deflection) + 5 (crystal) + 6 (shield: parrying shield a fighter bonus feat)
Ok, not as good as you might expect. Brain fart on the armor bonus to touch AC enchantment or feat for another +13 from armor so the wizard can only hit with a roll of 24, I mean natural 20 even if they think seeking ray would help. *shurgs* Really, you could drop the rod and pray they use rays since you can pick up an ACF for ray reflection if they miss and let them kill them selves.
Edit
For kicks, pay to be planeshifted to the ethereal plane or maybe consider dipping into the old classic Planar Champion. Complete Psionic's Ethereal Reaver allows you to attack the material plane without error. Free 50% chance to ignore anything the wizard does on top of built in flight. If Nab a strike or two with a dip and with Spring Attack you can even have total cover by hiding in the ground or in the hardened obdurium hat without any offense loss.
-
^Ethereal reaver is only useful against things that can't go ethereal. Which the wizard decidedly can and will.
Your tactics are good ideas though.
True strike / Moment of Prescience could get an orb past your AC though. Which the wizard would use if the first missed. (since orb blasters tend to want to use orb blasting)
If you wanted to homebrew stuff, a few feats/items that got the AC and saves and special abilities (like FoM and Mindblank) where you needed them instead of sourcebook hunting could cut down on alot of needed optimization (and by extension increase the base power of martial classes).
-
1. ^Ethereal reaver is only useful against things that can't go ethereal. Which the wizard decidedly can and will.
Your tactics are good ideas though.
2. True strike / Moment of Prescience could get an orb past your AC though. Which the wizard would use if the first missed. (since orb blasters tend to want to use orb blasting)
3. If you wanted to homebrew stuff, a few feats/items that got the AC and saves and special abilities (like FoM and Mindblank) where you needed them instead of sourcebook hunting could cut down on alot of needed optimization (and by extension increase the base power of martial classes).
1. It attacks both ethereal and material so a planesshifted wizard merely removes the miss chance. However, and see below.
2. If he missed the first time he could have just blasted him self. Also AC cranking is relatively easy, you could obtain 90+ by the 20th level while still wearing all the gear mentioned if you set your mind to it. I am avoiding bringing in class abilities though.
3. Never homebrew what you can already do, you lose the officialness of it. However, a howbrew 9th level version of One With Shadow that turns you ethereal instead of incorporeal sounds cool. Trigger it to go ethereal and maintain full offensive abilities, if the wizard planesshifts next round then you're effect will end prompting 100% immunity until they planesshift yet again. It's a good waste of their actions and spell slots just to debuff a single defense.
-
Well do you prefer a set of feats/spells/equipment that could be integrated into another build, or do you prefer a homebrew class with anti-caster abilities?
A homebrew class.
Maybe if you were a character with infinite spell resistance, the ability to auto-pass every save, immunity to divinations and Mindsight, you had Mettle and Improved Evasion, and an army of similarly statted creatures, you could survive.
You don't need half of that.
True. But its not without precedent, especially for homebrew:
Spell immunity isn't that far fetched
grab hellbreaker's telepathic static or just mind blank
mettle and evasion seem reasonable
something similar to the thrallherd ability?
3. Never homebrew what you can already do, you lose the officialness of it. However, a howbrew 9th level version of One With Shadow that turns you ethereal instead of incorporeal sounds cool. Trigger it to go ethereal and maintain full offensive abilities, if the wizard planesshifts next round then you're effect will end prompting 100% immunity until they planesshift yet again. It's a good waste of their actions and spell slots just to debuff a single defense.
True. This thread starts with the assumption that homebrew is needed for an effective antimage character. The trick as I see it is to defend against all but the TO-ish wizards without breaking the game. What is One With Shadow? Its not in the mango index, so I presume its a class ability.
-
Well do you prefer a set of feats/spells/equipment that could be integrated into another build, or do you prefer a homebrew class with anti-caster abilities?
A homebrew class.
I made something up along these lines a few years ago that might help.
If I can manage to dig it out and polish it a little I'll post it.
-
I made something up along these lines a few years ago that might help.
If I can manage to dig it out and polish it a little I'll post it.
I'd love that
In the meantime, here's mine. Its pretty simple and withstands to a reasonable degree (but doesn't defeat) even the worst TO wizards:
Bab=full, Good saves=fort,refl. There is an SLA progression every other level starting at 2 (Cure light, auto empower, Scry, Revivify, True Seeing, Heal, Word of Recall, Mind Blank, auto maximize, auto quicken) Its a "tanking" idea with mostly party-friend fluff. Its mainly based off the warlock, but has lesser forms of levels from other classes. You will see that the first seven class levels look like degenerate versions (slower progressions, etc) of the shaman, monk, shaman, scout, paladin, hexblade, and again paladin classes. It then gets a delayed version of the silly monk's greater flurry at 12th level.
Specials:
[spoiler]Animal Companion, Unarmed Strike
Bonus feat, evasion
Turn or Rebuke Undead
Skirmish (+1d6, +1 AC)
Divine Grace
Mettle
Special Mount
Increased Weapon Damage
Pseudo-Magical Detection
AC bonus (heavy armor)
Magical Detection
Greater Flurry
Cover
Sacrificial Ability Completion
Saves Boost
Soul Corruption
Magical Detection, Greater
Stat Gain
HD increase (d20s)
Deny Magic[/spoiler]
Notes on Special abilities:
[spoiler]Domains: At level one, choose two domains. You gain their granted powers, but not their spells.
At 8th level for one weapon of your choice any boosts to unarmed damage instead boost your weapon damage. Precision damage is likewise no longer such and now adds to your weapon damage directly.
At 9th level you gain the ability to know whenever a non-spell ability would trigger an effect that emulates a spell if its action takes place within 10' per class level.
Any abilities that directly reproduce the effects of a spell count for your Pseudo-Magical Detection, including effects that function 'as' a certain spell.
Most all spell-like abilities will fall under this class ability - though a few like a paladin calling his mount do not count, since it doesn't have a specific spell that it emulates.
Most (Ex) abilities will not emulate a spell directly enough to count for this, since they rarely reference a spell. (Su) abilities vary.
At 10th level as long as you are wearing heavy armor each different piece of masterwork or above armor or shield adds a stacking bonus to your AC equal to your Wisdom modifier but doubles armor check penalties.
At 11th level you gain the ability to know what every spell cast (including through items) within a 100' radius is and its affect as if you had succeeded on a spellcraft check. This includes activating contingencies.
You also know the location and identity of the caster. This is a passive, non-divination ability and requires no action. This is not limited to arcane and divine magic (applies to psionics, shadow casting, etc)
At 12th level you may greater flurry as a monk with your previously damage-boosted chosen weapon or while unarmed
At 13th level your Cover ability works like the Share Pain power except your target must be willing and within your reach at the time of damage to work, and you take 100% damage, not 50%.
Taking damage for your target is a free action as is designating your cover target, though it does require an opposed wisdom check with the enemy damage-dealer if attempted in a surprise round or while you are flat-footed.
At 14th level any spell or ability within 1000' x you HD that would trigger your Pseduo-Magical Detection or Magical detection abilities but fails to take effect for any reason (arcane spell failure, counter-spelling, etc)
may be completed under your control if you spend the spell's level x its caster level (the the cast spell or emulated spell) in HP damage. The effect still originates from the failing caster, not you.
This damage cannot be redirected, lessened, or negated. If reduced to 0 or less hp by this damage, you are dying and cannot reuse this ability again until healed.
At 15th level each of your HD is given a “Good” base saves progression, over a “Poor” one.
At 16th level whenever you defeat (via lethal or non-lethal damage) a creature you may attempt to rend the magic from its body. A successful magic rend precludes any form of resurrection, even by a wish spell.
Your percentage chance to succeed is the sum all spell levels the creature possesses for both used and unused spells or spell emulating abilities including open spell slots
If you succeed by more than 100%, you may 'store' this for the immediately following use of this ability only. If it is not used then, it is lost, nor does it roll-over to future uses.
If this ability is used on a member of the same base class, the SLAs are counted as being of minimal level. Note this may be used to protect the innocent as well as punish the guilty.
At 17th level your Pseudo-Magic Detection and Magical Detection abilities work at any range and across planes.
At 18th level you gain 1 * your class level as an unnamed bonus in the physical stat of your choice. Gaining the next two levels continue to add stats meaning you would have +25 in the stat of your choice at class level 20
At 20th level you may choose as a free action to negate any spell or replicated spell known from the your Greater Magical Detection by taking the spell's level x its caster level in HP damage.
This damage cannot be redirected, lessened, or negated. If reduced to 0 or less hp by this damage, you are dying and cannot reuse this ability again until healed.
Creatures that may sharespells are considered spell-countered when the original caster is thwarted.
Code of Conduct: If you break any part of the following restrictions you lose all class abilities. Alignment LG.
You may never act before any enemy in an encounter; you must delay until all enemies have had a chance to act.[/spoiler]
Everything has, I hope, a logical order to the capstone.