The end of all "AntiMage" threads

[Anklebite]

well, its moot, because kord automatically wins initiative.

If only there were some sort of spell that lets you act without winning init.  Some sort of magical ability to increase your celerity.

you cant immediate action if you haven't acted yet.

with a cunning legacy weapon you can. or, hell, ye old dire turtle shapeshift.

[Tonymitsu]

well, its moot, because kord automatically wins initiative.

If only there were some sort of spell that lets you act without winning init.  Some sort of magical ability to increase your celerity.

you cant immediate action if you haven't acted yet.

Only time you can't take an immediate actions if you are flat-footed (Rules Compendium, pg 7).

Hence, Foresight.

You are never flat-footed.
Thus, you can cast Celerity at any point, even during the surprise round.

Thus, you never lose.

[juton]

For those of you new to 3.5 optimization I just want to point out something. Using Foresight+Celerity a Wizard can act whenever they want, or by being a Dire Tortoise or being a Minotaur and using Celerity. That's bad, but what's worse is the fact that the Wizard will probably pop off a maximized Timestop, maybe a maximized twinned Timestop if they are showing off. So they don't get 1 action before you, they get 5-10 and they are going to be immune to daze from Celerity.

So basically if you can't stop Celerity you have to give a Wizard 10 rounds to do whatever they want to you. Good luck surviving that.

[Solo]

Extended Time Stop is great too.

[Tonymitsu]

Extended Time Stop is great too.

Can't Extend Time Stop I thought?

Didn't they errata it to Duration: instantaneous?


After all, if you can extend it then why can't you persist it?

[Solo]

You know, I really don't know about the erratta issue. It might have been, I suppose...

[Brainpiercing]

Extended Time Stop is great too.

Can't Extend Time Stop I thought?

Didn't they errata it to Duration: instantaneous?


After all, if you can extend it then why can't you persist it?

It was never errata'd. It's always had a duration entry, and it was never changed. The only time they said something about that is in the 3.0 FAQ, which a) has never been RAW, and b) is overruled by the 3.5 actual rules, which still contains the Duration entry.

Now what really doesn't work by strict RAW is MAXIMISING Time stop, because it doesn't have an "Effect" entry, and only variable "Effects" are maximised.

[Hijax]

well, its moot, because kord automatically wins initiative.

If only there were some sort of spell that lets you act without winning init.  Some sort of magical ability to increase your celerity.

you cant immediate action if you haven't acted yet.

with a cunning legacy weapon you can. or, hell, ye old dire turtle shapeshift.

but kord knows this. a few days in advance. so he sends a proxy. or hell, he goes himself while you're prepping spells.

also, does dire turle get a surprise round, or initiative win? and remember, if kord surprises you, you have to see who goes first on the suprise round. with an initiative roll. which he wins.

also, kord doesn't need to actually encounter you. he can just use alter reality to do everything you can(admittedly barring metamagic, but he can make any effect permanent), and create a stupidly powerful minion that just goes f*ck your ass. and he can become a dire turtle too.
oh well, but that hardly makes a point, i guess. except that deities are overpowered and needs a nerf.

[SorO_Lost]

So basically if you can't stop Celerity you have to give a Wizard 10 rounds to do whatever they want to you. Good luck surviving that.

Belt of Battle.

Assuming it is your turn, your Belt of Battle can be triggered in response to a Celerity spell giving you a round's worth of actions to AMF them. In game wise you'll have to ID Celerity to know to use your belt and you'd have to win initiative so this is already outside of most people's abilities.

As for the Dire Turtle, just hide. The pre-surprise round while the would be attacker is still hidden and isn't known to be there just means the wizard just burns his actions on continuing to drink his herbal tea. Then it is the hidden guy's surprise round and he has a Belt...

The real problem is Craft Contingency and if the forum wizard ever actually cast that spell the would be attacker can probably use a divination spell or just diplomacy up the questions to the wizard so not only would the forum wizard's contingencies not be a "oh yeah, I have blah blah cus I never stat anything out so I can change it nyah" but they would also be known to the would be assassin. But there in lays the damn problem really. Any time someone mutters wizard on the forums it's like playing chess against someone who refuses to put his peaces on the chess board. Anytime you would check his King after finding it the player, not the piece, changes his mind and argues he never played that way so his King isn't there to be checked. The one thread is all BG's existence here that tried to stat out the wizard failed as posters quickly found out they could not fit every trick they like to brag about in at once and it's popularity quickly fell. It did make some head way though.

[PhaedrusXY]

So basically if you can't stop Celerity you have to give a Wizard 10 rounds to do whatever they want to you. Good luck surviving that.

Belt of Battle.

Assuming it is your turn, your Belt of Battle can be triggered in response to a Celerity spell giving you a round's worth of actions to AMF them.

You can't use a swift action in response to someone else's action. That's how immediate actions work, not swift actions.

As for the Dire Turtle, just hide. The pre-surprise round while the would be attacker is still hidden and isn't known to be there just means the wizard just burns his actions on continuing to drink his herbal tea. Then it is the hidden guy's surprise round and he has a Belt...

What are you talking about? At the point where the hidden guy decides to attack or whatever, the surprise round starts. The wizard gets to act during that, thanks to being a dire turtle. All the crap before that is out of combat, and so isn't even happening during a turn-based system.

The one thread is all BG's existence here that tried to stat out the wizard failed as posters quickly found out they could not fit every trick they like to brag about in at once and it's popularity quickly fell. It did make some head way though.

lol, wut? From what I remember from that thread, the non-casters basically gave up, except for a couple of specific combos which could probably work to beat most wizards, except the ones using really extreme cheese like locked demiplanes and Astral Projection. Go look at the thread. There are several specific wizard builds there for people to try their hand at. There were a couple of idiot posters that were being "non-committal" as you're claiming, but they were in the minority and weren't the ones actually contributing to the thread.

[Omen of Peace]

It was never errata'd. It's always had a duration entry, and it was never changed. The only time they said something about that is in the 3.0 FAQ, which a) has never been RAW, and b) is overruled by the 3.5 actual rules, which still contains the Duration entry.

Now what really doesn't work by strict RAW is MAXIMISING Time stop, because it doesn't have an "Effect" entry, and only variable "Effects" are maximised.

It's clear one can only either Maximize or Extend Timestop, but which is not clear.

Your assertion about strict RAW is however bogus, since "effects" is used in a ton of different places and does not always mean the "Effect" line. Look under Saving Throw in the Magic Overview section of the SRD for instance: does it mean saves are meaningless except for Effect spells ?
I wonder if your definition of Maximize lets it apply to even one spell...

[juton]

The one thread is all BG's existence here that tried to stat out the wizard failed as posters quickly found out they could not fit every trick they like to brag about in at once and it's popularity quickly fell. It did make some head way though.

If I recall correctly I posted a build and so did PhaedrusXY. Anyone can view the thread here. I think both of this where self limiting, but no one was able to beat them so we never went fully gorgonzola with a Wizard build. If you think you have a build that can beat either of our Wizards I'd love to see it.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Extremely good points. This is why I'm pretty sure that we would need to first think up something that would atleast counter (but not necessarily defeat) these tactics. The product would most definitely be homebrew or epic.

Ok, if we enter epic monsters, i sorta think i'll say this: deities.

Mmmm. Looking for Epic Monster abilities is fine to me Lets face it a lot of "epic" material can be done by non-epic characters. Deities are just the DM having fun with you. So yea, I draw a line.

For those of you new to 3.5 optimization I just want to point out something.

Let's suppose that we know the tricks. I don't want too much derailment. The last very useful post was about stopping spells before they were cast.... which was exactly like my initial homebrew ideas.

[SorO_Lost]

You can't use a swift action in response to someone else's action. That's how immediate actions work, not swift actions.

RC's entries for both Swift and Immediate actions do not sate either can interrupt anything merely that they can be used at any time, with one being limited to only your turn and the other works just like Swift but can be used when it's not your turn. The idea of interrupting seems to stem from the any time part (swift has) and stealing the rules of a ready action taking effect before the action that triggers under the validation that since the only two other examples (AoO for standing as the FAQ answers & contingency) of also behave the same way that create the idea of an undefined rule idea of how things work. There is nothing within the rule books that supports immidate actions interrupt an action taking place (other than the side note of 3E's swift/free are free actions, which hey use that example and its still the same outcome) and there is no magic line in swift action saying it don't provided it is your turn. Anything to add to that outside of personal opinion like a rules quote unlike every other time some one has arguing against this?

What are you talking about? At the point where the hidden guy decides to attack or whatever, the surprise round starts.

You missed the point completed and utterly. Every time I bring this up it happens too.

Wizard: ahh such a nice day outside, I can't see anyone near me right now.
Hidden guy attacking: I shoot my bow!
DM: K, you got the surprise round since he doesn't know you're there. your attack unhides you and roll some dice to see if you hit.
Wizard: I'm a turtle I go before him! It's my turn!
DM: Ok, well you're going before he attacks so he is still hidden, still out of sight, and you still didn't know he was there.
PhaedrusXY: I don't care, steal his soul.
Me: Again the wizard doesn't know he is there as the action that revealed him never took place yet.
PhaedrusXY: It's my turn I kill him!


[too lazy to nab the quote]
Also glad you linked to the thread. Plainly I see in Juton & PhaedrusXY's posts the only contingency is to shift back when they become unable to act. Any comments of other contingency, such as loved comments like contingency vs AMF or some one getting close or a spell trigger by free action speech which happen virtually every thread.

Actually, PhaedrusXY's build makes no mention of dealing with AMF other than abusing celerity/direturtle (see above) making smearing some glue on an antimagic torc a rather effective tactic as if it wasn't the second thing on your list following you moving close and beating them with a sharp stick. Anyone going to jump in and change unable to act to unable to cast spells to prevent such a cheap tactic as tossing a rock some where near the target before falling onto them in a battle jump or less useful roof-jumper now? Please.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

"Oh, so I just randomly entered combat.  According to my horoscope for today, the next time I'd be attacked by somebody they'd be 97.5 degrees to my left, at elevation 3.5 feat, and between thirty and twenty five feet away.  Forcecage."

[Anklebite]

"Oh, so I just randomly entered combat.  According to my horoscope for today, the next time I'd be attacked by somebody they'd be 97.5 degrees to my left, at elevation 3.5 feat, and between thirty and twenty five feet away.  Forcecage."

ah, contact other plane. is there any argument you CAN'T win? 

[Brainpiercing]

It's clear one can only either Maximize or Extend Timestop, but which is not clear.

Your assertion about strict RAW is however bogus, since "effects" is used in a ton of different places and does not always mean the "Effect" line. Look under Saving Throw in the Magic Overview section of the SRD for instance: does it mean saves are meaningless except for Effect spells ?
I wonder if your definition of Maximize lets it apply to even one spell...

Well... WoTC writers don't know shit about strict RAW, as in, a strict and consistent definition of terms. So... yeah. But the duration thing is pretty clear, nonetheless. But... different discussion, I'm sure .

[juton]

It's all Contact other Plane, well mostly. You can't surprise someone who abuses Contact other Plane period. Until you can find a counter for it then these AntiCaster threads are useless.

[PhaedrusXY]

What are you talking about? At the point where the hidden guy decides to attack or whatever, the surprise round starts.

You missed the point completed and utterly. Every time I bring this up it happens too.

Wizard: ahh such a nice day outside, I can't see anyone near me right now.
Hidden guy attacking: I shoot my bow!
DM: K, you got the surprise round since he doesn't know you're there. your attack unhides you and roll some dice to see if you hit.
Wizard: I'm a turtle I go before him! It's my turn!
DM: Ok, well you're going before he attacks so he is still hidden, still out of sight, and you still didn't know he was there.
PhaedrusXY: I don't care, steal his soul.
Me: Again the wizard doesn't know he is there as the action that revealed him never took place yet.
PhaedrusXY: It's my turn I kill him!

No, I am not missing anything. Immediate actions can interrupt other actions. The second the "hiding guy" starts to do anything, the wizard gets to go and interrupt his action. That's how immediate actions work. You can interrupt other people's actions with them.

I used the dire turtle crap because everyone else seems to think it matters. In reality, it doesn't. You don't need to be a dire turtle, and in fact if the only way to prevent yourself from being flatfooted is to be a minotaur, you're better off being one of those. All that matters is 1) You're not flat-footed, and 2) You can cast Celerity.

And if the first guy has already fired his bow, he is given away. If the wizard has a way to go before the arrow hits, but after it has been fired (i.e. interrupt the first guy's action, as with Celerity), your argument does not work.

Actually, PhaedrusXY's build makes no mention of dealing with AMF other than abusing celerity/direturtle (see above) making smearing some glue on an antimagic torc a rather effective tactic as if it wasn't the second thing on your list following you moving close and beating them with a sharp stick. Anyone going to jump in and change unable to act to unable to cast spells to prevent such a cheap tactic as tossing a rock some where near the target before falling onto them in a battle jump or less useful roof-jumper now? Please.

The (shrunken) big metal hat is there to block AMF, if someone tries to walk up to you with one. As stated below, Contact Other Plane takes care of any unforeseen threats.

[SorO_Lost]

That's how immediate actions work. You can interrupt other people's actions with them.

Anything to add to that outside of personal opinion like a rules quote unlike every other time some one has arguing against this?

**

As stated below, Contact Other Plane takes care of any unforeseen threats.

COP-out? >.>

A. The god of magic Bob doesn't know the answer.
Your true answer will be what Bob knows and chances he has already seen even one of your spells within a 20 week area where billions of spellcasters cast a hundred spells per day is just as large of a chance as the attention you warrant from him.

B. The god Bob is willing to stop weaving the ability for mortals to cast spells to answer you.
Bob doesn't know the true answer unless he researches it which requires a standard action on his part and contact other plane says the answer is provided within the same round. Obviously this means that the god has to stop everything and all godly duties in order to stop and research an answer for a stupid mortal unwilling to answer it's own questions.

C. Bob doesn't have an automated machine and listens to everything.
High level devoted worshipers still get spells though an automatic spell granting system. Why? Do you think it has to do with thousands of spell requests provided daily are too insignificant to pay any real attention to? What about those pesky wizards? also, just how many wizards are trying to abuse the system like this anyway? Two incoming calls means someone is getting a call back later in the form of untruthful answers.

D. Bob doesn't know the outcome of the spell.
So the god knows you cast magic missile Saturday the 14th at 9:03am at monster Joe. Did SR block it? did the monster make it's save? Did you even ask those quests? anyway, Bob can only guess that since you didn't cast a second magic missile one of you died and pick that you win based off nothing more than betting odds.

E. Bob knows death, but can he see why kids love nonlethal damage?
Give bob the Death portfolio and you still don't know if the creature you cast MM at didn't just bonk you upside the head and tossed you into a bag of holding for later abuse. Are we seeing a pattern yet?

F. Is Bob willing to nurture the helpless baby?
To sit around all day answering your questions as noted above. One wonders why he doesn't just tell you to figure things out your self and live your life without being cuddled in his arms all the damn time. In more extreme cases, such as lacking the word "good" in his alignment you probably get told off in a way that you probably get the point after the 7th 35 headed winged awakened half-golem terrasqua killed you.

G. Bob is awesome, hey hes a god right?
Bob still has to deal with the red tape of deityhood. The same unheard by mortal ears laws that prevent Bob from strolling around on Earth simply beating people up for you is keeping his direct influence of all future events being told to you all the time. Bob also isn't the only god in existence and after you beat up Tim's favorite wizard theres going to be some holy wars going on. Now Bob is too busy in a war to listen to you.

H. Bob killed the other gods, thus no one is going to pop in and distract him from paying attention to you.
Bob is a house rule and never existed anyway. Where is your god now? We're talking in game flavor here and the official Grayhawk, Dragonlance, FR, & Ebberron material supersede your made up version of FR and none of the gods there get away with crap like this so even if you renamed Bob to Mystria it's still the same thing.

I. Joe, the guy that cast MM at you, also is assumed to have free control of the world to mass dozens of things within his scope of abilities.
Hes a bard. Talking to someone for one minute is a thousand times more viable the COP-out. His legion of everything you wished you had costs less, is more reliable, and by RAW this tactic is a hell of a lot more powerful too. Problem is when you start assuming you have infinite time to do what ever you want, such as building a plane, cloning, COPing, etc. without being stopped and assuming everything falls in your favor you also freely wave all complaints against someone else doing the same. Diplomacy is the only thing greater than Pun-Pun and well within the realm of anyone and when placed in the favorable world the Bard just talks to people in their spare time and created world peace among all civilized nations within a weekend.

J. Stop talking, I'm not listening to yyyyooooouuuuu.
It's ok, I'm done too. Stake everything you have as a pro argument on COP-out we both know it will never happen in a real game and I'm happy with that. Mindful for many of the same reasons above and the ones I missed you'll never, ever, be standing in an acceptable position for anyone to ever accept your so called end all thread riddled with holes and points to contest even in the most basic of functionality.