The end of all "AntiMage" threads

[DeusTerran]

Usually I don't have problems with casters in my campaigns, mainly because my regular players know that if they try any super min-maxing I bring out my home brew of pain.

But yeah the only true way to Anti-caster is Either another caster (tested, one round can take an HOUR or 3) A deity (you know that god/gods you keep COPing? yeah they got tired of you) or home brew mechanics ("what do you mean my spell-casting is 'null-and-void'?!)

[Azrael]

...Anyone call captain obvious yet?

Yes...actually I did lol. Not pertaining to the exact same thing but yes...

Also, I guess the point I was trying to make with COP is even if you do use it...

a.) (and Phaedrus said this as well) It can only give you as much information as the DM/Moderator knows, and since we are merely human and not omnipotent ourselves there's an inherent flaw in the amount of helpful info it can give you.

b.) It can give you all the correct information and you can still be beaten. You can be as prepared as you can possibly be and still come across another mage that is just stronger than you...period, there's just nothing you can do to defeat him...

[Brainpiercing]

Usually I don't have problems with casters in my campaigns, mainly because my regular players know that if they try any super min-maxing I bring out my home brew of pain.

But yeah the only true way to Anti-caster is Either another caster (tested, one round can take an HOUR or 3) A deity (you know that god/gods you keep COPing? yeah they got tired of you) or home brew mechanics ("what do you mean my spell-casting is 'null-and-void'?!)

Anything homebrew should be up to group consensus. Of course there can always be something stronger in the game than any given PC, but all the rules should be on the table. Making up stuff to screw people over isn't good GMing, it's smug control-freak GMing. Sorry to be blunt...

If you ever come across the situation that as a GM you can't beat one of the PCs in your game using the rules present, then either you throw the towel or ask the player politely (you don't have to be nice, but polite is necessary) to downgrade his PC.

[jseah]

a.) (and Phaedrus said this as well) It can only give you as much information as the DM/Moderator knows, and since we are merely human and not omnipotent ourselves there's an inherent flaw in the amount of helpful info it can give you.

Not true.  See my suggestion about retconning. 

The spell could allow the player to set up contingent decisions earlier that day dependent on answers.  Mostly, it will be a different spell list dependent on the answers to the questions. 
So when the answer finally becomes clear, the things that would have been affected get changed. 

That way, the spell works as written and the player gets full use of it.  It's insanely powerful that way of course, but if you can ask 10 specific questions about the future and get them answered, won't you be insanely powerful even without magic?  Like, surprise round every combat yeah?

[Azrael]

Yeah but your idea isn't RAW, its a variant way to handle COP.

With COP being as powerful as it is already do you really think anyone would try to improve upon it by adjudicating it in a manner not described in RAW? You would have to have one crazy DM (who's probably only doing it because it serves his interests more).

Anything homebrew should be up to group consensus. Of course there can always be something stronger in the game than any given PC, but all the rules should be on the table. Making up stuff to screw people over isn't good GMing, it's smug control-freak GMing. Sorry to be blunt...

If you ever come across the situation that as a GM you can't beat one of the PCs in your game using the rules present, then either you throw the towel or ask the player politely (you don't have to be nice, but polite is necessary) to downgrade his PC.

Wholeheartedly agree...I have been saying this for years. One DM in particular pulled this on me in the past, he kept changing the rules and making shit up mid battle just to suit him...he was the worst DM I ever met...He was just angry I knew the game better than he did. Most DMs I have met (although not as bad as the aforementioned) seem to have the mentality that they have to know the game better than me.

[SorO_Lost]

Admittedly I kinda half skipped the last 4(?) pages but...

Noooo. Atleast read my posts. Or, Hell, I'll just include them in the OP so that way we stay on task. I don't mind the usual back and forth, but most of the COP stuff was only a tangent.

Okay fine, I added quotes of myself in the OP so people know the correct thread direction.

Hey, I only half skipped them. Walls of text scare me
Current direction is house rules? Pfft.

I was predestined but then I argued [general]
Prerequisite: Must be willing to argue. A lot.
Benefit: Once per week immediately before fighting a spellcaster you may use COP to ask if you will lose. If he says no you win the fight no matter the actions spent and preparations taken it will happen as BG's char op says true answers come to pass no matter what. If he says yes then run away and you will be 100% successful becuase BG's char op also says changing the actions changes the outcome.

*cough* I mean.


Great Destiny [general]
You have a great destiny to fulfill.
Prerequisite: Be a player character.
Benefit: The gods fighting each other trying to get you to work for them and no deity is clear on your fate due to other divine influence attempting to alter your fate. Divinations and such effects (including remote sensing) cannot reveal anything related about you, your where abouts, plans, or equipment you are carrying. This effect also prevents other characters and creatures from using insight based bonuses against you.

Ride the Tide of Time [Spelltouched]
Do spelltouched feats even have flavor?
Prerequisite: Exposure to a wizard casting time stop or celerity like effects.
Benefit: Once per encounter when a magical effect that grants extra actions is cast that doesn't affect you, you immediately gain an the same action granted by the effect the spell or effect grants. You cannot take more than a full-round action this way. If the spell is Time Stop your full-round action takes place within the suspended time after the spell is cast, thus allowing you to effect the caster and after the full-round action you slip back into normal time. This feat cannot be triggered by nonmagical effects that grant additional actions such as a Sharn's multiple heads or spells that do not directly grant additional actions such as Schism.

FAQ (cus my intent overrules in misdirection my poor typing skills created)
[spoiler]Q: Does Great Destiny block COP from knowing your actions?
A: Partially, no deity knows about your future so they cannot provide true answers about what you will be doing (see COP's true answer). However if the contact in question personally knows about your past or present (mindful they could not have used remote sensing) they may reveal information they remember from rumors and past experiences with you.

Q: Can a character with Great Destiny get a surprise round against someone with Foresight? What about Cunning?
A: Yes, all divination effects do not work against the player, foresight cannot foretell the player's attack to properly warn the caster and also foresight's bonuses to AC do not apply to attacks made by the character as they are insight bonuses. And no, Great Destiny cannot prevent Cunning from having it's effect as Cunning is not a divination based effect.

Q: Does Ride the Tide of Time work if a Swiftblade casts Haste to gain extra actions?
A: No. Haste is an Ex effect when cast by a swiftblade thus nonmagical. Haste cast by others would grant an attack action allowing you to make a single attack that you could normally use within a full-attack action at the time of casting though.[/spoiler]

If you are lazy you could do feats for dimensional anchor, true seeing and rod of absorption effects rather than buying the items for it. Maybe even make up an anti-summoning effect for the wizards that admit to not being enough to do anything them selves but meh. I'm too lazy to do those, besides I kinda like the idea of simply running away after the wizard burns 5,000XP and in debts him self to an epic creature.

[juton]

@SorO_Lost

The problem with making feats for true seeing, dimensional anchor etc is that they are a lot more powerful than any other feats a mundane character can take. I'm not opposed to that but a lot of people might be.

[Hijax]

Admittedly I kinda half skipped the last 4(?) pages but...

Noooo. Atleast read my posts. Or, Hell, I'll just include them in the OP so that way we stay on task. I don't mind the usual back and forth, but most of the COP stuff was only a tangent.

Okay fine, I added quotes of myself in the OP so people know the correct thread direction.

Hey, I only half skipped them. Walls of text scare me
Current direction is house rules? Pfft.

I was predestined but then I argued [general]
Prerequisite: Must be willing to argue. A lot.
Benefit: Once per week immediately before fighting a spellcaster you may use COP to ask if you will lose. If he says no you win the fight no matter the actions spent and preparations taken it will happen as BG's char op says true answers come to pass no matter what. If he says yes then run away and you will be 100% successful becuase BG's char op also says changing the actions changes the outcome.

*cough* I mean.


Great Destiny [general]
You have a great destiny to fulfill.
Prerequisite: Be a player character.
Benefit: The gods fighting each other trying to get you to work for them and no deity is clear on your fate due to other divine influence attempting to alter your fate. Divinations and such effects (including remote sensing) cannot reveal anything related about you, your where abouts, plans, or equipment you are carrying. This effect also prevents other characters and creatures from using insight based bonuses against you.

Ride the Tide of Time [Spelltouched]
Do spelltouched feats even have flavor?
Prerequisite: Exposure to a wizard casting time stop or celerity like effects.
Benefit: Once per encounter when a magical effect that grants extra actions is cast that doesn't affect you, you immediately gain an the same action granted by the effect the spell or effect grants. You cannot take more than a full-round action this way. If the spell is Time Stop your full-round action takes place within the suspended time after the spell is cast, thus allowing you to effect the caster and after the full-round action you slip back into normal time. This feat cannot be triggered by nonmagical effects that grant additional actions such as a Sharn's multiple heads or spells that do not directly grant additional actions such as Schism.

FAQ (cus my intent overrules in misdirection my poor typing skills created)
[spoiler]Q: Does Great Destiny block COP from knowing your actions?
A: Partially, no deity knows about your future so they cannot provide true answers about what you will be doing (see COP's true answer). However if the contact in question personally knows about your past or present (mindful they could not have used remote sensing) they may reveal information they remember from rumors and past experiences with you.

Q: Can a character with Great Destiny get a surprise round against someone with Foresight? What about Cunning?
A: Yes, all divination effects do not work against the player, foresight cannot foretell the player's attack to properly warn the caster and also foresight's bonuses to AC do not apply to attacks made by the character as they are insight bonuses. And no, Great Destiny cannot prevent Cunning from having it's effect as Cunning is not a divination based effect.

Q: Does Ride the Tide of Time work if a Swiftblade casts Haste to gain extra actions?
A: No. Haste is an Ex effect when cast by a swiftblade thus nonmagical. Haste cast by others would grant an attack action allowing you to make a single attack that you could normally use within a full-attack action at the time of casting though.[/spoiler]

If you are lazy you could do feats for dimensional anchor, true seeing and rod of absorption effects rather than buying the items for it. Maybe even make up an anti-summoning effect for the wizards that admit to not being enough to do anything them selves but meh. I'm too lazy to do those, besides I kinda like the idea of simply running away after the wizard burns 5,000XP and in debts him self to an epic creature.

nice.

one thing: there should be a range limitation(or something) on Ride the Tides of Time. The definitions on what constitutes an encounter are kinda vague, so it could  be argued to include stuff like a caster you spotted with your incredible spot check, casting celerity to attack someone else.

otherwise, those feats are probably the most necessary effects. dimensional anchor/true seeing/etc are not the Mage Hunter's main problem.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Taking Great destiny wil lresult in every diviner on the planet setting out to kill you.  All their spells worked before, and now you're screwing them up.

[SorO_Lost]

Taking Great destiny wil lresult in every diviner on the planet setting out to kill you.  All their spells worked before, and now you're screwing them up.

It's ok. The world decided COP is a forbidden spell and is currently burning all the remaining spellbooks that contain it and murdering wizards while they still can.

COP using wizards have become a boogyman story to scare little kids.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Well, any divination related effects.  Augury?  Not working anymore, thanks to the butterfly effect. 

If nothing else, you've got the entire congregation of any deity devoted to fate out for your blood.

[Bozwevial]

Well, any divination related effects.  Augury?  Not working anymore, thanks to the butterfly effect. 

If nothing else, you've got the entire congregation of any deity devoted to fate out for your blood.

Eh, you're a PC. People are always out for your blood.

[SorO_Lost]

Well, any divination related effects.  Augury?  Not working anymore, thanks to the butterfly effect. 

If nothing else, you've got the entire congregation of any deity devoted to fate out for your blood.

Nothing in the god blooded template says the world is after Vecna Blooded creatures and they are immune to divination spells including COP and by extension most insight bonuses against them as nearly every spell/power that grants insight bonuses are divination based.

Funny you didn't complain about that The_Mad_Linguist. Is it becuase it requires two levels of spellcasting thus it's "wizard only" so it won't raise a single objection out of you?

[Bozwevial]

Well, any divination related effects.  Augury?  Not working anymore, thanks to the butterfly effect. 

If nothing else, you've got the entire congregation of any deity devoted to fate out for your blood.

Nothing in the god blooded template says the world is after Vecna Blooded creatures and they are immune to divination spells including COP and by extension most insight bonuses against them as nearly every spell/power that grants insight bonuses are divination based.

Funny you didn't complain about that The_Mad_Linguist. Is it becuase it requires two levels of spellcasting thus it's "wizard only" so it won't raise a single objection out of you?

Or maybe it's because the text of that feat is far broader and more encompassing than the standard immunity to divination spells?

[The_Mad_Linguist]

No, it's because it targets indirect things as well.

Let's say I cast augury.  It doesn't care at all if there's a vecna-blooded creature around.

However, given that feat, it would be more like "well, it's entirely possible that this one guy will teleport in and kill you in the next round, so I'm giving a mixed result for everything."

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Anything homebrew should be up to group consensus.

The boards is that group

Current direction is house rules? Pfft.

This is the original one too. I just let the COP discussion continue because I thought we would get to mindblank blocking + vecna blooded blocking it like in the last few threads.

The first parody is meh but I believe I have seen something like that third ability somewhere... an epic monster or maybe a web enhancement about a certain diety ability?

If you are lazy you could do feats for dimensional anchor, true seeing and rod of absorption effects rather than buying the items for it. Maybe even make up an anti-summoning effect for the wizards that admit to not being enough to do anything them selves but meh. I'm too lazy to do those, besides I kinda like the idea of simply running away after the wizard burns 5,000XP and in debts him self to an epic creature.

Also I'm not interested in homebrewing effects that magic items can already provide. I'm not sadistic enough to demand an antimage take VOP.  

it requires two levels of spellcasting thus it's "wizard only"

The vecna-blooded one? Eh a pure-classed antimage could get around that.

[SorO_Lost]

No, it's because it targets indirect things as well.
Let's say I cast augury.  It doesn't care at all if there's a vecna-blooded creature around.
However, given that feat, it would be more like "well, it's entirely possible that this one guy will teleport in and kill you in the next round, so I'm giving a mixed result for everything."

Actually, by your own twisted example Vecna-blooded not only render that spell immune too but now they know enough to Scry and ambush you.

A Vecna-blooded creature gains immunity to all divinations cast against it or cast to learn anything about it. such Divinations fails to reveal any information. The Vecna-blooded creature immediately learns the name, appearance, and location of the caster who attempted the divination.
So I limited it to only your plans, your location, your equipment, and added a meant to as a catch all snag for direct info about you-yourself-and-I. Vecna-blooded blocks everything without regard, example Innkeeper Droolsspit has met the VB well now he is completely immune to Detect Thoughts as probing Drools mind could offer a clue that VB likes his eggs over easy.

Problem is you are not saying the feat needs to be reworded to work better. You started out complaining about it saying the world hates you die!. After Vecna already does that gets pointed out to you you run off on an extreme tangent corrupting intent to rant again despite yet again the more general coverage of VB already does worse. I at this point see you as doing nothing more than arguing to arguments sake. Please suggest what alterations should be done and come across as more than someone with their head stuck in the sand whining about how it's a rule that noncasters don't get nice things.

***

Also as I tried to grasp what Plz meant in his last post I found that interesting enough the Cloak of Mystery is kept even if you are no longer Vecna blooded. In a chain of events that sounds like I'm trying to chain more events together than JaronK's cl 40 hardened obdurium skeleton body trick: A Helm of Opposite Alignment to Necropolition to Evolved (for free spellcasting) to Vecna Blooded to Raise Dead to Helm Fixer-upper is a lengthy but possible tactic to net the cloak even as an LG Barbarian and you'll have +0 LA. A sadistic party member can even geas you into doing all of that completely guilt free so you can party it up with Herousnous in the after life. Its something worth throwing into the dirty trick handbook.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

I'm syaying there's a massive difference between asking about bob and bob's plans.

The mere inabality to find out anything about bob's plans render any possibility of anyone else in the entire world knowing anything about the future null.  Otherwise tehy'd be learning about bob's plans, even by default/

[DeusTerran]

Wholeheartedly agree...I have been saying this for years. One DM in particular pulled this on me in the past, he kept changing the rules and making shit up mid battle just to suit him...he was the worst DM I ever met...He was just angry I knew the game better than he did. Most DMs I have met (although not as bad as the aforementioned) seem to have the mentality that they have to know the game better than me.

I always present the home-brew stuff at the beginning of the game, I tell the group that if someone starts min-maxing too much, or worse attempting a pun-pun, they get a few warnings before the home-brew stuff starts into the game. Min-maxing can be fun when it's appropriate. I've only had to pull out home-brew on a couple players who needed to learn that having fun in a game doesn't mean wrecking the game for everyone else. Everyone has their own view of fun, but in games like these you also have to consider who your playing with as well.

[Brainpiercing]

Wholeheartedly agree...I have been saying this for years. One DM in particular pulled this on me in the past, he kept changing the rules and making shit up mid battle just to suit him...he was the worst DM I ever met...He was just angry I knew the game better than he did. Most DMs I have met (although not as bad as the aforementioned) seem to have the mentality that they have to know the game better than me.

I always present the home-brew stuff at the beginning of the game, I tell the group that if someone starts min-maxing too much, or worse attempting a pun-pun, they get a few warnings before the home-brew stuff starts into the game. Min-maxing can be fun when it's appropriate. I've only had to pull out home-brew on a couple players who needed to learn that having fun in a game doesn't mean wrecking the game for everyone else. Everyone has their own view of fun, but in games like these you also have to consider who your playing with as well.

Then I apologize. If you're up-front about it and everyone agrees then it's perfectly fine.