Author Topic: The end of all "AntiMage" threads  (Read 83714 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

PlzBreakMyCampaign

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1373
  • Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« on: March 09, 2010, 08:31:00 PM »
Yes this qualifies as one, meaning I fail (like I just did at The Game).

But no, this isn't the mild retardation of GitP spam threads. I'm curious what the board thinks would be required mechanically for such a thing to work in DnD. Don't point me to the homebrew section; I need mechanics balance.

The point of this thread is to create a homebrewed antimage class that could take on all but a TO full caster.

I have a good guess what would be required: Unaffected/Insta-Dispel to most of caster's tricks (meaning spells). The problem is that many spells (conjuration, I'm looking at you) do not do anything to the enemy but none the less are 'win' buttons.

The mechanics of non-casting generally satisfy people (attacks, movement, AoO, AC, etc) when spells are not involved, so by no means am I asking for invulnerability. I interested to see how far homebrew would need to go to create a character that would need a whole party of wizards to kill it, but would be quite vulnerable to most gishes and any lockdown fighter or Barbarian charger.

Yes I have a few homebrew ideas of my own, but I need not share since this isn't the homebrew section (which I have gone through completely with nothing like this coming close to succeeding). Boards?

Further Explanation for those who had trouble understanding the above:[spoiler]
there ARE ways to beat COP, mainly by seeing to it that it isn't cast.

Without banning/mega-nerfing [x powerful spell] I'd say preventing it from being cast is only of the few or only ways to make it fair for a non-caster. Right?

Literally, there is no "I might win" for Mr. Beatstick and his buddies Melee McFighterblade and Blasty McNukebig.
Agreed. I'm only interested in drawing/not dying to reasonable, not too TO wizard power (genesis is fine but ice clones of epic gods isn't)

DnD is way too fargone to have an antimage actually hunt wizards. I'll settle for stopping him/allies from being demolished like everything else. I invited custom abilities into the scope to see what was the minimal amount of extra 'umph' needed to matter.

I'd like us to think outside the box and see what sort of abilities would be needed to make this not the case.

So, I'm failing to see how the wizard wins in any conventional sense.
Ug. I'm not interested. Follow the other similar lovely threads on that. I want this to be the end of them by saying: 'we made up this ability/abilities that, though they don't exist in 3.5, would allow a not full caster to atleast stand up to a full-caster. It's in the min/max forum because I want to know how far we have to go to get to that balancing point.

I'm interested in non-TO RAW, but with whatever custom abilities are deemed necessary by the boards.

I hoping more of a "how creative to we have to homebrew abilities to not die a horrible Wizard-filled death?" thread...
[/spoiler]

Those who have done a good job with homebrew abilities to add to an antimage class:[spoiler]
Ride the Tide of Time [Spelltouched]
Do spelltouched feats even have flavor?
Prerequisite: Exposure to a wizard casting time stop or celerity like effects.
Benefit: Once per encounter when a magical effect that grants extra actions is cast that doesn't affect you, you immediately gain an the same action granted by the effect the spell or effect grants. You cannot take more than a full-round action this way. If the spell is Time Stop your full-round action takes place within the suspended time after the spell is cast, thus allowing you to effect the caster and after the full-round action you slip back into normal time. This feat cannot be triggered by nonmagical effects that grant additional actions such as a Sharn's multiple heads or spells that do not directly grant additional actions such as Schism.

Q: Does Ride the Tide of Time work if a Swiftblade casts Haste to gain extra actions?
A: No. Haste is an Ex effect when cast by a swiftblade thus nonmagical. Haste cast by others would grant an attack action allowing you to make a single attack that you could normally use within a full-attack action at the time of casting though.

How 'Bout this for sum hulk-style homebrew feats:

Limitless Rage[general]:
Prerequisites: The ability to rage or a similar class feature
Effect: whenever you are the target of any effect(including attacks) that would cause damage to you, kill you, or otherwise directly harm you, you enter a rage. if you are already raging, you effectively rage again, doubling the effects of the rage. There is no limit to the total amount of rages you can have stacked using this feat. All the rages' durations are renewed when you enter a new one. This effect takes place whether or not you succeed on your saving throw.

Numb Anger[general]
Prerequisites: The ability to rage or a similar class feature, Limitless Anger
Effect: while raging, the amount of negative hit point you need to die is increased by 10 for each rage you have going. for example, if you are raging 4 times, you die at -50.

Voluntary Berserk[general]
Prerequisites: The ability to rage or a similar class feature, Limitless Anger
effect: you can use up normal uses of rage per day to enter a stacked rage as per limited anger. You do not need to take damage to enter stacked rages. For example, a barbarian with this feat could use up two of his rages/day to enter a double rage, as per Limitless rage.

Proportional Provocation[general]
Prerequisites: The ability to rage or a similar class feature, Limitless Anger
Effect: You enter an extra rage for each 20 points of damage you would take, instead of just one as per Limitless Anger. If it is a death effect, treat it as dealing as much damage as you have maximum hitpoints.
[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 07:04:07 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

Solo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2684
  • Solo the Sorcelator, at your service
Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2010, 08:34:48 PM »
Mithral Golem is a bit tough, but I'm confident that enough Telekinesis will kill it.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Anklebite

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2009
  • I shall play you the song of my people.
Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2010, 08:48:44 PM »
one of the gaint gollems from epic level handbook might work. they have a 100ft radius AMF on them at all times.
I do not suffer from paranoia; I enjoy every second of it.
Pioneer of the Ultimate Magus + Sublime Chord + Ultimate Magus combo

ninjarabbit

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1442
    • Email
Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2010, 09:27:43 PM »
one of the gaint gollems from epic level handbook might work. they have a 100ft radius AMF on them at all times.

Enough giant boulders + shrink item should handle that

PlzBreakMyCampaign

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1373
  • Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2010, 10:42:05 PM »
one of the gaint gollems from epic level handbook might work. they have a 100ft radius AMF on them at all times.
Enough giant boulders + shrink item should handle that
My thoughts exactly. AMFs are nasty, but I'm pretty more would be needed. The Mithral Golem's magic immunity = getting warmer
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

Negative Zero

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1532
    • Email
Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2010, 10:51:50 PM »
one of the gaint gollems from epic level handbook might work. they have a 100ft radius AMF on them at all times.
Enough giant boulders + shrink item should handle that
My thoughts exactly. AMFs are nasty, but I'm pretty more would be needed. The Mithral Golem's magic immunity = getting warmer

The Colossi are immune to magic, too.

Bastian

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 540
Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2010, 11:31:44 PM »
4th edition? :D

In all seriousness I'm not sure there is anything that a melee oriented character could beat that a wizard couldn't especially since as a last resort a wizard could use his familiar as a melee combatant.

Anklebite

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2009
  • I shall play you the song of my people.
Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2010, 11:46:26 PM »
I do not suffer from paranoia; I enjoy every second of it.
Pioneer of the Ultimate Magus + Sublime Chord + Ultimate Magus combo

Tohron

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 50
Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2010, 11:46:48 PM »
Perhaps it could be based around making mages lose control of their spells - since using spellcasters optimally requires careful preparation (and sometimes the application of heavy focused damage), a class that could take control of spells cast by a nearby mage, or simply make their spells fire off randomly, could screw up a prepared caster.  They would also need a good deal of anti-detection abilities, to prevent scry & die and/or Foresight abuse.  A third necessity would be the ability to identify all active spells (i.e. simulacrums, astral projections, summons) so that the caster can't lure them out with disposable minions and then pound them from afar once they're revealed.

Since the primary feature is controlling enemy spells, gishes would have less difficulty, and pure combat classes would have an easy time.

jojolagger

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 951
Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2010, 11:59:21 PM »
a trallherd with DFA meta-breath abuse minions?
I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of my disposable minions are taking the hits on me while you take force damage every turn.
Countdown to Zombie Apocalypse 97
When you see this, copy it into your sig and -1
:lovefirefox
Quotes [spoiler]
In other words, he thinks there's a "correct" way to play D&D.  *sigh*
There is: Kill shit and loot the corpse!
When you use a tool the way it was designed for -- its intended function -- then it will work very well for you.

But it's not the tool's fault if you use it for something else and you fail utterly, such as trying to eat cereal with a butterknife, pounding nails with a screwdriver, blogging to voice your political opinions, and brushing your teeth with a hammer.
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2010, 12:13:42 AM »
a trallherd with DFA meta-breath abuse minions?
I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of my disposable minions are taking the hits on me while you take force damage every turn.
I'm sorry, I can't hear you over my immunity to force damage
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

Negative Zero

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1532
    • Email
Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2010, 12:26:37 AM »
If you're going DFA, you need to just blanket every plane in fire. It's bound to help somehow.

Praef

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 101
Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2010, 12:48:31 AM »
Perhaps it could be based around making mages lose control of their spells - since using spellcasters optimally requires careful preparation (and sometimes the application of heavy focused damage), a class that could take control of spells cast by a nearby mage, or simply make their spells fire off randomly, could screw up a prepared caster.  They would also need a good deal of anti-detection abilities, to prevent scry & die and/or Foresight abuse.  A third necessity would be the ability to identify all active spells (i.e. simulacrums, astral projections, summons) so that the caster can't lure them out with disposable minions and then pound them from afar once they're revealed.

Since the primary feature is controlling enemy spells, gishes would have less difficulty, and pure combat classes would have an easy time.

Spellthief could be the answer to this.  let's see...some way to boost sneak attack damage would be necessary, at least 18 levels of the class (or bloodlines etc) to be able to steal 9th level spells, and initiative and hide boosts.  

edit: I guess if we're just looking to steal spells and thereby preventing casters from using them, master spellthief is all it needs.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 01:16:03 AM by Praef »

Dragonamedrake

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 135
Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2010, 01:02:25 AM »
This http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030418a

Void Presence + Empty Form = win

Phoenix00

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 275
Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2010, 01:27:36 AM »
It isn't enough to walk around with an antimagic field up or to be immune to magic.  Telekinesis and throwing things, polymorph, and summoning/gating can easily allow the mage to do the beatdown.

Now something that prevents the wizard from casting.  (My logic is taken from Dr_Rocktopus and his War Weaver Handbook.)

A monster that readies actions against spells, attacking whenever a wizard tries to cast a spell if you do enough damage than the target won't make his concentration check of 10 + damage dealt.
Something that lowers the target skill check on concentration, similar to an aura of sadness
Something that doesn't allow a mage to cast a spell defensively (though defensive casting does not stop readied attacks)
Mage slayer line of feats
Something that teleports near a mage whenever he tries to cast a spell

Endarire

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2171
    • Email
Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2010, 01:34:21 AM »
Let's look at the resources available to a level 9 Wizard.

-Animate Dead.  Clerics can do better, but a Wizard has this option.  He can pay a Cleric to desecrate the area first or get desecrate on an item.

-Lesser Planar Binding: Sure, it only affects creatures of 6HD or less, but you can steal some of heaven or hell for long-term purposes.

-Contact Other Plane: A Wizard worth his INT casts this regularly.  He knows what to prepare and how to survive.

-Teleport: Relocate quickly.  Bring things back to base with multiple castings.

-Telekinesis: Throw things into other things.  Grapple even incorporeal creatures!

-Shrink Item: Is that a miniature city you have in your Bag of Holding?

-Wall of Force: Unless you have some funky ability like the Void Incarnate or can teleport/etc. around the wall, you're stuck.

He probably also has enough expected wealth to blow some on a one-shot item of simulacrum.  He only needs CL11 to bring a sim Solar and the default minimum CL for simulacrum is 13, able to cast L9 Cleric spells.  It can heal itself with vigor, miracle, etc.  It can gate in real Solars to serve you by proxy.  So yeah, awesome.

The stakes become higher the higher your Wizard level.  I'm still only dealing with core material.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Akalsaris

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1143
    • Email
Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2010, 02:02:51 AM »
Somebody who can threaten casters but die easily to a lockdown melee?  That's pretty hard to imagine :P

To kill a caster:
1. Immune to divinations - maybe God-blooded of vecna
2. High SR.  SR doesn't block everything, but it never hurts.  Immunity to magic (aka golems) is even nicer.
3. Immunity to ability damage, fear, mind-control, the like.  I'm thinking undead or construct by this point.  But an insanely high SR also deals with most of this.
4. Permanent or easily raised protection from evil to deal with summoned creatures. 
5. Can easily prevent teleportation.  This one's tricky, and maybe impossible to pull off without spells.
6. High energy resistances.
7. Mobile - flying and freedom of action are probably the minimum here.
8. Has a means of dispelling magical buffs (Pierce magical concealment or warlock/DFA?)
9. Ideally, can stop spells while threatening (
10. Cannot be detected (Mundane hide + darkstalker, etc)
11. High saving throws

To die to a melee:
1. Low AC
2. Low HPs
3. Low strength score (to fail against trip, grapple, etc)
4. Few magic items

I think an undead or warforged swordsage with the right feats and 1-2 templates probably fits the bill best: lots of tricks against casters, but if built to fight casters, it won't have so many against direct melee damage.

bearsarebrown

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2010, 02:05:58 AM »
The Mage Slayer line goes a long way.

Anklebite

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2009
  • I shall play you the song of my people.
Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2010, 02:23:30 AM »
It isn't enough to walk around with an antimagic field up or to be immune to magic.  Telekinesis and throwing things, polymorph, and summoning/gating can easily allow the mage to do the beatdown.

Now something that prevents the wizard from casting.  (My logic is taken from Dr_Rocktopus and his War Weaver Handbook.)

A monster that readies actions against spells, attacking whenever a wizard tries to cast a spell if you do enough damage than the target won't make his concentration check of 10 + damage dealt.
Something that lowers the target skill check on concentration, similar to an aura of sadness
Something that doesn't allow a mage to cast a spell defensively (though defensive casting does not stop readied attacks)
Mage slayer line of feats
Something that teleports near a mage whenever he tries to cast a spell

sadly, none of that stops swift action spells. so, if they have a quickened "fuck you" spell(if core only), or have something like greater mirror image ready, you are still kinda screwed.
I do not suffer from paranoia; I enjoy every second of it.
Pioneer of the Ultimate Magus + Sublime Chord + Ultimate Magus combo

bearsarebrown

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2010, 02:32:10 AM »
Occult Slayer from... somewhere... it's on Crystal Keep... that makes Quickened Spells provoke and dismissing and some other things.