The end of all "AntiMage" threads

[LargePrime]

Once from Planar Touchstone.

As I read COP, once it is blocked, it is blocked.  If somebody files the form, a block is in place and it will not matter how many times you ask about items covered by the form.  And there is no known way to remove the block.

And as I read it that's funny once.  You called your favor (assuming the god in question responds, which is, gee, DM FIAT), and the spell was blocked (again, DM FIAT), but there's nothing stopping a reiteration, let alone another being under said wizard's control (like I dunno, his army of sims of himself) from also using CoP.  Sorry Charlie, but any and all argument to prevent CoP fails in a neutral environment.

I just do not see how the divination being blocked by a deity would only work once.  If the Divination is blocked, it does not matter how many times you ask, its blocked.  Nothing further can be learned about these future events.

Honestly you are saying the god does MEATSTICK a favor and blocks inquiry into the killing of the wizard, and it only works the first time the wizard asks?  Gee slant toward the wizard much?

EDIT; Did not see the Godwin, so I leave this post for posterity.

[KellKheraptis]

I have to disagree, at least if you use your so called "infallible" questioning method.

What is the first name of the enemy that will be the biggest threat to me in the coming week? (Let's say the answer is Bob)
2) What is the last name of the enemy that will be the biggest threat to me in the coming week? (Let's say the answer is Smith)
3) What is Bob Smith's biggest vulnerability?
4) Which of Bob Smith's capabilities poses the biggest threat to me?
5) What is the best way to counter Bob Smith's biggest threat to me?
6) What day will I face Bob Smith on?
7-12) repeat 1-6 for the second biggest threat of the week.

I never even once claimed anything remotely close to that set of questions being infallible. In fact, I said I just came up with them in like 5 minutes off the top of my head, and that I was sure that a wizard with godlike (and even better than most D&D gods) intelligence could come up with a lot better questions. In fact, other posters have came up with MUCH more sophisticated questioning methods.

And the rest of your entire post is about wizard vs. wizard, which has nothing to do with the discussion going on here at all, or with the series of threads we are referring back to. So good job missing the whole point, and ranting about a tangent.

And I have seen few... I might go so far as to say no... builds that have no weaknesses at all. Care to post one?

My Warmage's come pretty damn close...  As did the Iot7V I PM-ed as the Twice-Betrayer Slayer that used only material available when it was built.  And honestly, if you'd really like, I can go ahead and take a couple days to craft up my mythal I keep mentioning on my TO SCM's, and I assure you, it will make JD's Crimson Veil look tame.  Now I'm curious if it can be done, short of actually going Super Saiyan/Pun-pun and destroying the world.  Like...in a cohesive manner that just might slip onto the table

LargePrime, that's how counteractions work.  You countered the wizard's spell with divine intervention.  Just so happens the wizard has several of them.  Not one shred of RAW supports continuous blocking of anything.

And wtf is a Godwin?

[Agita]

And wtf is a Godwin?

Godwin's Law: As an internet discussion goes on, the probability that a comparison involving Hitler or National Socialism will be made approaches one.
So making such a comparison (or calling someone a nazi etc.) constitutes a 'Godwin'.

[KellKheraptis]

And wtf is a Godwin?

Godwin's Law: As an internet discussion goes on, the probability that a comparison involving Hitler or national socialism will be made approaches one.

ROFL isn't that any conversation with a remotely heated discussion, though?

[Solo]

Aaand here's our mandatory Godwin. All right folks, we can all go home now.

I like to think that I am providing a service.

Godwined, eh?  

You know what you did.

[Hijax]

So your assumptions are slanted to getting the most out of the wizards abilities, not the non casters?  I see a little DM fiat BS right here.

No, I'm saying that it is impossible to actually use the spell to its fullest potential if the guy attacking the mage is a PC. I'm not even saying that we shouldn't run it that way, and in fact the original challenge was set up so that the wizard was basically an NPC. He was statted fully ahead of time, and the attacker could actually know basically all of his tricks. You can still use the spell to devastating potential, just not to the same potential that an actual PC wizard could in a real game against NPCs. The spell is even more powerful in the hands of a PC than an NPC, without DM fiat/intervention.

So your assumptions are slanted to getting the most out of the wizards abilities, not the non casters?  I see a little DM fiat BS right here.

If we are done with COP then we can move on.  I don't think all agree though.

Oh no, we are not dismissing it that easily.

Ya I was being funny

Every way that has been put forth so far to block it has involved either house rules or DM whim. As written, there is no way for a PC to guarantee that he can block it.  Only the DM (in the form of gods) has that power.

Gonna put this with this

Where do the rules say that a character can call down divine intervention to block it in the first place?

So you both agree there are no rules for unblocking, right?  So now all we have to figure out what it takes for a player to exploit "On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked by an act of certain deities or forces."  It is not as if the cost of such a block is high.  Some have suggested Miracle.  Perhaps a Gate to trade with a "force" that can file the paperwork.  Winning a service from an serviceable entity.  An assassination of said Wizard might be viewed favorably by the god of such an act.  Have you no suggestions for what would be a fair price?
There are plenty of cases and builds where favors are assumed done.  But just not for the "Not A Wizard"?

If PunPun is assumed to find what is needed can we not assume others can to?

because there is actually a statement that Pazuzu will come when you say his name and give you crap when you change your alignment. Nothing like that exists for gods in general.

[PhaedrusXY]

So your assumptions are slanted to getting the most out of the wizards abilities, not the non casters?  I see a little DM fiat BS right here.

No, I'm saying that it is impossible to actually use the spell to its fullest potential if the guy attacking the mage is a PC. I'm not even saying that we shouldn't run it that way, and in fact the original challenge was set up so that the wizard was basically an NPC. He was statted fully ahead of time, and the attacker could actually know basically all of his tricks. You can still use the spell to devastating potential, just not to the same potential that an actual PC wizard could in a real game against NPCs. The spell is even more powerful in the hands of a PC than an NPC, without DM fiat/intervention.

So your assumptions are slanted to getting the most out of the wizards abilities, not the non casters?  I see a little DM fiat BS right here.

Dude... what are you even talking about? Are you even actually responding to what I've written, or just posting stuff that you feel like saying? The wizard in the earlier thread was being handled as an NPC, and the PC challenger gets to look at his character sheet ahead of time. How could that possibly be me being biased, or the DM being biased? If anything, we're deliberately hamstringing the wizard here, just to give the other guy a chance. So yeah... I guess we're biased... in favor of the anti-mage.

So now all we have to figure out what it takes for a player to exploit "On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked by an act of certain deities or forces."  It is not as if the cost of such a block is high.  Some have suggested Miracle.  Perhaps a Gate to trade with a "force" that can file the paperwork.  Winning a service from an serviceable entity.  An assassination of said Wizard might be viewed favorably by the god of such an act.  Have you no suggestions for what would be a fair price?
There are plenty of cases and builds where favors are assumed done.  But just not for the "Not A Wizard"?

If PunPun is assumed to find what is needed can we not assume others can to?

The steps to become pun pun are explicitly following the rules as written. There is no guestimation, or leaps of logic, or DM whim involved. You can become Pun Pun by just using the rules exactly as they are written. (With the possible exception of the crap that lets you do it at first level, but that's not necessary at all. It just lets you do it earlier.)

What you're talking about is working things out via roleplaying that have nothing to do with the actual game mechanics. There is no mechanism laid out in the game mechanics that allows you to block COP. How COP works is explicitly laid out in the game mechanics, but the method of blocking it is not. So the only way to use it in a completely "sterile" fashion that does not involve individual DM whims is to just allow it to work as written.

In a real game, I'd have no problem at all if the PCs petitioned some god to block the divinations of the BBEG wizard, or vice versa, saying that an NPC who wants to assault the PC wizard had done the same. I wouldn't do that regularly, unless a main theme of the plot involved the PCs trying to thwart the machinations of a god, but I don't see anything wrong with doing it occasionally. It would be something entirely driven by the "plot", though, and not the game mechanics. There is a big difference when you're talking about hypothetical comparisons about the relative power of a given class. Those kinds of "plot devices" should never enter into the discussion, as they have no basis in the game mechanics at all, and hypothetical discussions are pretty much by definition about the game mechanics.




Wow... this thread is nuts. By the time I can type up a response, there have already been like 7 replies. Nothing like a "wizard vs. fighter" thread to rile everyone up. Anyone else remember how many of these fuckers there were on 339? And I think all of them wound up getting locked, except Meyer's "Overpowered Casters" gauntlet. 

[Azrael]

And the rest of your entire post is about wizard vs. wizard, which has nothing to do with the discussion going on here at all, or with the series of threads we are referring back to. So good job missing the whole point, and ranting about a tangent.

And I have seen few... I might go so far as to say no... builds that have no weaknesses at all. Care to post one?

Actually, I got that, but since I saw others making W vs W posts I figured the topic changed; like so many of them tend to do. I mean, why even bother bringing up COP against non-casters...you don't even need it.

Ill post my sig later, as I said, I'm in graduate school, I don't have the time to work on his psi ref fixes right now. Even so, its pretty easy...extended veil of undeath and shapechange into a troll with both energy immunity spells on you...that pretty much covers everything...I'm sure there's a few holes but it can be easily rectified with a couple of other spells and items...so there you have it...immune to everything except dispel, disjunction, antimagic...easy (which can be accounted for with craft contingent spell, rod of absorbtion, spellblades, etc).

[Havok4]

So you both agree there are no rules for unblocking, right?  So now all we have to figure out what it takes for a player to exploit "On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked by an act of certain deities or forces."  It is not as if the cost of such a block is high.  Some have suggested Miracle.  Perhaps a Gate to trade with a "force" that can file the paperwork.  Winning a service from an serviceable entity.  An assassination of said Wizard might be viewed favorably by the god of such an act.  Have you no suggestions for what would be a fair price?
There are plenty of cases and builds where favors are assumed done.  But just not for the "Not A Wizard"?

There are no rules for getting COP blocked without DM fiat that I know of and you have not given us a rules quote or location of one. There are no rules for blocking COP so we assume by RAW that it is not blocked. If you can supply a unambiguous method of blocking COP without requiring the DM to make something up or requires you to gain the favor of a god something might be made of this discussion but you have not done this.  If you assume that you can trade for services with divine entities then the wizard has more to trade, in the form of amazing spells and effectively infinite resources, than your non caster does so he will win out in your conflict for divine favor. The wizard does not need in game favors or DM fiat to be invincible while your idea requires both to even have the smallest chance of success.

[Hijax]

And the rest of your entire post is about wizard vs. wizard, which has nothing to do with the discussion going on here at all, or with the series of threads we are referring back to. So good job missing the whole point, and ranting about a tangent.

And I have seen few... I might go so far as to say no... builds that have no weaknesses at all. Care to post one?

Actually, I got that, but since I saw others making W vs W posts I figured the topic changed; like so many of them tend to do. I mean, why even bother bringing up COP against non-casters...you don't even need it.

Ill post my sig later, as I said, I'm in graduate school, I don't have the time to work on his psi ref fixes right now. Even so, its pretty easy...extended veil of undeath and shapechange into a troll with both energy immunity spells on you...that pretty much covers everything...I'm sure there's a few holes but it can be easily rectified with a couple of other spells and items...so there you have it...immune to everything except dispel, disjunction, antimagic...easy (which can be accounted for with craft contingent spell, rod of absorbtion, spellblades, etc).

major hole: hellfire/other shit that bypasses immunity.

[Azrael]

I knew someone was going to say this...

hellfire is its own type...its not fire damage. Trolls are vulnerable to normal fire and acid only...energy immunity covers that. Hellfire or anything that would "bypass immunity" infact doesn't since it would be included in the plethora of things it regenerates against.

There's a difference between being immune to fire and hellfire still effecting you and being vulnerable to normal fire and hellfire effecting you since it declares it is not normal fire.

[PhaedrusXY]

The wizard does not need in game favors or DM fiat to be invincible while your idea requires both to even have the smallest chance of success.

"You have no chance to survive make your time."

It's been fun guys. Gotta run for a bit. I look forward to seeing the 20 replies that pile up before I get back on here. 

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

hmm I can't finish reading before posting. Consider this current page unread.

Literally, there is no "I might win" for Mr. Beatstick and his buddies Melee McFighterblade and Blasty McNukebig.

Agreed. I'm only interested in drawing/not dying to reasonable, not too TO wizard power (genesis is fine but ice clones of epic gods isn't)

On the COP interpretations for non-answers: I'm not sure it matters. The wizard won't need protection from any non-casters any time soon. DnD is way too fargone to have an antimage actually hunt wizards. I'll settle for stopping him/allies from being demolished like everything else. I invited custom abilities into the scope to see what was the minimal amount of extra 'umph' needed to matter.

if you have to use spells to defeat a spellcaster, then you've only proved that spells beat everything else.

I'd like us to think outside the box and see what sort of abilities would be needed to make this not the case.

So, I'm failing to see how the wizard wins in any conventional sense.

Ug. I'm not interested. Follow the other similar lovely threads on that. I want this to be the end of them by saying: 'we made up this ability/abilities that, though they don't exist in 3.5, would allow a not full caster to atleast stand up to a full-caster. It's in the min/max forum because I want to know how far we have to go to get to that balancing point.

So if we're talking about "is there any way, within the actual RAW, for a non-caster to beat a paranoid wizard who uses combinations of the most powerful spells in the books in the most optimal way", the answer is "no, because his spells are way too fucking overpowered to ever actually get used in a game like that".

Yup, this is where the thread started. I'm interested in non-TO RAW, but with whatever custom abilities are deemed necessary by the boards.

edit:

Nothing like a "wizard vs. fighter" thread to rile everyone up.

I hoping more of a "how creative to we have to homebrew an ability to not die a horrible Wizard-filled death?" thread...

since I saw others making W vs W posts I figured the topic changed; like so many of them tend to do. I mean, why even bother bringing up COP against non-casters...you don't even need it.

Because by homebrewing abilities that are powerful enough, a wizard might actually need COP.

oh and noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo (W v homebrewed non-caster instead plz)

[PhaedrusXY]

OK.... that's a LOT more interesting. /cracks knuckles.

Frank and K's Fighter is a decent start, particularly it's Foil ability. With multiple immediate actions per round, and the ability to disrupt any ability with them with a range of 60 feet as a touch attack, they can actually put the fear in most "normal" mages. No time to post more now, but looking through the Tomes I think we can probably put something together using their "house rules".

[Littha]

my homebrew feats that might help:

Beyond the eyes of the gods [General]
Prerequisite: No Divine spellcasting ability
A creature with this feat cannot be perceived in any way but the physical, divinations return no result when used to gain information about this character and other effects that allow would allow this creature to be percieved in any way other than physically looking at it fail. This includes the portfolio sense of gods though effects that reveal hidden objects such as see invisible and true seeing work normally.

Slice through deception [General]
Prerequisite: BAB 6+, no Arcane spellcasting ability
Attacks made by a character with this feat ignore all magical effects on the target that would make it harder to hit or damage them. This includes Shapechanging abilities
*May be taken as a fighter bonus feat

Eyes that pierce the veil [General]
Prerequisite: Slice through Deception
A character with this feat is treated as always being under the effect of True Seeing, This is an extrodinary ability.

Magical Anathema [General]
Prerequisite: Eyes that pierce the veil, Beyond the eyes of the gods, Sacred Vow
A character with this feat gains spell resistance equal to 20+ her HD from class levels, the abilities she gains from Sacred Vow are now Extraordinary and she suffers no penalty for breaking her vow. However a character with this feat cannot use any magical items of any kind, items in her possession are treated as though they were in an antimagic field.  

[Azrael]

Magical Anathema [General]
Prerequisite: Eyes that pierce the veil, Beyond the eyes of the gods, Sacred Vow
A character with this feat gains spell resistance equal to 20+ her HD from class levels, the abilities she gains from Sacred Vow are now Extraordinary and she suffers no penalty for breaking her vow. However a character with this feat cannot use any magical items of any kind, items in her possession are treated as though they were in an antimagic field.  

Yeah because having SR 28 at level 8 is totally fair...

[Littha]

having spent 6 feats, given up all magic item use and all spellcasting?

[Bozwevial]

having spent 6 feats, given up all magic item use and all spellcasting?

Indeed. Also:

a) That only includes class Hit Dice, so any LA or racial Hit Dice don't count towards the SR.

b) It is entirely possible to increase AC to the point where only a natural 20 can successfully hit a character, so why should spells be exempt from being blocked in a similar manner? Especially, I must reiterate, at the expense of many feats, magic item use (which practically necessitates Vow of Poverty as well just to try and regain some of your usefulness), and any spellcasting ability.

c)  Assay Spell Resistance, Spell Vulnerability, [Greater] Spell Penetration, etcetera.

d) There are plenty of spells that won't even notice SR on their way to kick someone's ass.

[Azrael]

Yeah...I get that but why not just go the extra feat and take vow of poverty...I mean, you already gave up all your magic items and took sacred vow...you might as well get all of the other VoP bonuses...among which DO NOT include SR, let alone the most powerful SR progression in the game.

You're not balancing this at all. You wanted it to be an obvious choice to take VoP which is why you included sacred vow (an exalted feat that has nothing to do with any of the others since they are neither holy in nature or exalted).

And its not even like you took 6 worthless feats to get it...I mean slice through deception...yeah ooookay, how about I just create the super ultra mega anti-caster cannon that kills mages in one hit no matter what protections they have up (not that a decent caster still wouldn't beat you). Usually in order to get a significant class or feat you take a bunch of useless ones in order to justify the balance, as is the case with the initiate of the seven fold veil.

This is why homebrew is pointless...people have no skill in balancing things and always have some sort of hidden agenda they try to sneak in there and hope no one notices.

[PhaedrusXY]

This is why homebrew is pointless...people have no skill in balancing things and always have some sort of hidden agenda they try to sneak in there and hope no one notices.

Bah, that's a load of crap. Frank and K's stuff is quite good, as is a lot of other homebrew. Yeah, you have to be selective, but don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. It's not like standard D&D is the paragon of balance, anyway. You can't get much more broken than the core spells...