Author Topic: The end of all "AntiMage" threads  (Read 83587 times)

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LargePrime

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #180 on: March 19, 2010, 01:43:09 PM »
Who said we're talking about two players?
<SNIP>
I'm just not fine with saying the DM is going to step in and mess with things just because he feels like it, especially in a hypothetical discussion like this.
This hypothetical discussion involved two characters in 'competition' with each other, right?  I thought of them as two players.  And I thought it rather arbitrary to say one player wins with an unblockable COP when it is not that hard for the other player to block it.  The DM should be a neutral arbitrator here, and not let the wizard win cause they are more wizardly.  So I think again we are agreed on most everything,

Now in a GAME (OFF TOPIC) I am with you on the DMing stuff.  I only add the group should have had a discussion about what type of game they want to play right around the time the player/DM was thinking about exploiting COP.  In this thread was talking about the DM in the context of this thread.

Hijax

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #181 on: March 19, 2010, 02:23:49 PM »
Which brings us right back to the problem of not being able to defeat casters without using magic ourselves.
And when was that a real factor?

Wizard spends some resources (spell slots) and learns an answer (god's opinion).
Other spends some resources (gold) and learns an answer (god's opinion told to him by a dancing naked women).

If you wanted the other side not to look for spellcaster resources maybe you're wizard shouldn't be looking at gods for resources hmm?

...

It was a real factor since it mean this: you need spells to beat spells. if you have to use spells to defeat a spellcaster, then you've only proved that spells beat everything else.
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Nachofan99

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #182 on: March 19, 2010, 03:11:00 PM »
I have to ask PhaedrusXY to tell me the cast time on COP and if he thinks the wizard is helpless while casting it.  Seems like that would be about the best time to attack them.

LargePrime

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #183 on: March 19, 2010, 03:13:11 PM »
Which brings us right back to the problem of not being able to defeat casters without using magic ourselves.
And when was that a real factor?

Wizard spends some resources (spell slots) and learns an answer (god's opinion).
Other spends some resources (gold) and learns an answer (god's opinion told to him by a dancing naked women).

If you wanted the other side not to look for spellcaster resources maybe you're wizard shouldn't be looking at gods for resources hmm?

...

It was a real factor since it mean this: you need spells to beat spells. if you have to use spells to defeat a spellcaster, then you've only proved that spells beat everything else.
What is the point here?  So a non caster cannot use enchanted weapons, shields, or items?  Did you read the OP?

PhaedrusXY

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #184 on: March 19, 2010, 03:16:33 PM »
I have to ask PhaedrusXY to tell me the cast time on COP and if he thinks the wizard is helpless while casting it.  Seems like that would be about the best time to attack them.
Didn't we go over this already? He'd know you were going to do it. He doesn't have to wait till the information the last casting runs out before he casts it again. Hell, he can cast it every day if he wants, and each casting can look into the future for up to a week.

I also don't see anything that says he's helpless while casting it, and if he knows you're going to attack him while he's casting it, he can just buff the holy hell out of himself and summon all kinds of crap and THEN start casting COP. Or he could go somewhere that you can't get to, and cast it.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

KellKheraptis

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #185 on: March 19, 2010, 03:22:59 PM »
This is also not mentioning the TO abilities of a wizard, excluding Pun-pun.  As in hi beatstick, meet my mythal.  Now if you'll excuse me, I need to fuck your wife while you kill yourself on my prevalent powers and vanguard abilities. :D
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Nachofan99

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #186 on: March 19, 2010, 03:42:00 PM »
I have to ask PhaedrusXY to tell me the cast time on COP and if he thinks the wizard is helpless while casting it.  Seems like that would be about the best time to attack them.
Didn't we go over this already? He'd know you were going to do it. He doesn't have to wait till the information the last casting runs out before he casts it again. Hell, he can cast it every day if he wants, and each casting can look into the future for up to a week.

I also don't see anything that says he's helpless while casting it, and if he knows you're going to attack him while he's casting it, he can just buff the holy hell out of himself and summon all kinds of crap and THEN start casting COP. Or he could go somewhere that you can't get to, and cast it.

I was just curious how you interpreted the very first sentence of the spell.  You know, the whole "You send your mind to another plane..." part.  It's just fluff.  But it does tell me your mindset.  The spell only works the way you think it does and there is no other room to interpret it any other way.  Fine with that.

You also don't seem to key off on the 10 minute casting time.  Seems like an exploitable liability, especially if you're chain casting them.  When did you start up the chain...at 9th level?  So every single day since 9th level you cast COP 2+ times to be "sure" you would be ready?  Just checking.

So COP often, multiple times.  Aren't you going to eventually get hit with an Int/Cha decrease on a 1 due to that?  Wouldn't that be the best time (you know, anytime up to or within 5 weeks) to attack said caster?

I must be missing something dramatic because a 1 on the Int/Cha decrease is basically instant win for the other guy.  That is most likely the strategy of the anti-mage; hang out waiting for paranoid spell casters who fail their check.  Go in while they can't cast arcane spells and hit them in the face with a rock. Win.

Swiss cheese.

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Negative Zero

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #187 on: March 19, 2010, 03:56:28 PM »
You can take ten on ability checks.

Havok4

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #188 on: March 19, 2010, 04:15:47 PM »
You can take ten on ability checks.

Exactly, which is one of the reasons the spell is so imbalanced, if they just put a rule in the spell saying that you cannot take 10 on the check the spell would be much less game breaking. But they did not so wizards have knowledge of all future dangers.

dark_samuari

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #189 on: March 19, 2010, 04:43:24 PM »
So, I'm failing to see how the wizard wins in any conventional sense. What you've been describing is a super powerful mage who has pulled himself away from the world into his invulnerable fortress of solitude guarded by his infinite guards and magical effects but you've yet to present any reason why he would ever be attacked. By making this character so isolated he's essentially closed himself off to any reason for attack. Why does the wizard ever leave his plane? Does he need to, it seems like he'd be pretty self-sufficient on his own.

DM: Alright, there's an almost omnipotent and omniscient wizard, guarded by impenetrable defenses on his own demiplane of terror and magical might.
Players: Okay, what has he done?
DM: Well nothing but he's really powerful so he could destroy the planes if he wanted!
Players: Well does he want to?
DM: Well no but...
Players: So than there's no really reason to go confront him?
 

Yeah, it's a COPout. It's a way for the DM to just say "It doesn't work" whenever he wants, but the specific in-game reason given is because a deity intervened. So yeah, I think that is just a load of crap. I absolutely think it is bad DMing to have deities intervening to block spells, or interfere with the PCs at all, unless it is heavily related to the plot of the campaign somehow. It sounds like some bullshit Gygax would have pulled in a game he were DMing, right after he killed half the party because they pushed the giant, candy-like, red button, which meant instant death with no saving throws to a randomly chosen half of the party.

The fact that it is written into the spell description doesn't make it any less BS.

So you're angry that within game a deity would block an ever-increasingly powerful wizard? I don't know any game, any game, where the DM wouldn't eventually stop the use of CoP (even in the manner as described above because hey, it's both a lot more flavorful than just banning it out right and can actually bring something into the plot) when confronted with a TO-wizard who spams CoP as much as possible. You may cite it as DM Fiat but that's exactly why it's there, to control the guy your presenting.

Havok4

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #190 on: March 19, 2010, 04:59:08 PM »
In a normal game it is perfectly reasonable and to prevent TO abuse of COP. But in this discussion we are having about how to defeat a wizard without a spell casting class you have to assume a DM that will use the rules presented and deal with character abilities in a neutral fashion. Causing one of the wizards spells to automatically fail because it is far to powerful and gamebreaking compared to his opponents, while understandable, is not neutral. When you have to bring in divine intervention to give the opposing character even a snowballs chance in the elemental plane of fire at winning something about this challenge needs to be reconsidered.

KellKheraptis

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #191 on: March 19, 2010, 05:02:50 PM »
In a normal game it is perfectly reasonable and to prevent TO abuse of COP. But in this discussion we are having about how to defeat a wizard without a spell casting class you have to assume a DM that will use the rules presented and deal with character abilities in a neutral fashion. Causing one of the wizards spells to automatically fail because it is far to powerful and gamebreaking compared to his opponents, while understandable, is not neutral. When you have to bring in divine intervention to give the opposing character even a snowballs chance in the elemental plane of fire at winning something about this challenge needs to be reconsidered.

Yes, yes it does.  The Wizard wins, end of discussion :)
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Hijax

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #192 on: March 19, 2010, 05:04:08 PM »
In a normal game it is perfectly reasonable and to prevent TO abuse of COP. But in this discussion we are having about how to defeat a wizard without a spell casting class you have to assume a DM that will use the rules presented and deal with character abilities in a neutral fashion. Causing one of the wizards spells to automatically fail because it is far to powerful and gamebreaking compared to his opponents, while understandable, is not neutral. When you have to bring in divine intervention to give the opposing character even a snowballs chance in the elemental plane of fire at winning something about this challenge needs to be reconsidered.

Yes, yes it does.  The kobold next door wins, end of discussion :)

fixed.
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KellKheraptis

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #193 on: March 19, 2010, 05:06:01 PM »
In a normal game it is perfectly reasonable and to prevent TO abuse of COP. But in this discussion we are having about how to defeat a wizard without a spell casting class you have to assume a DM that will use the rules presented and deal with character abilities in a neutral fashion. Causing one of the wizards spells to automatically fail because it is far to powerful and gamebreaking compared to his opponents, while understandable, is not neutral. When you have to bring in divine intervention to give the opposing character even a snowballs chance in the elemental plane of fire at winning something about this challenge needs to be reconsidered.

Yes, yes it does.  The kobold next door wins, end of discussion :)

fixed, assuming the SCM doesn't stalemate him because he was lazy and waited til the SCM got his mythal up.

Fixed the fix :P
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Hijax

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #194 on: March 19, 2010, 05:07:40 PM »
In a normal game it is perfectly reasonable and to prevent TO abuse of COP. But in this discussion we are having about how to defeat a wizard without a spell casting class you have to assume a DM that will use the rules presented and deal with character abilities in a neutral fashion. Causing one of the wizards spells to automatically fail because it is far to powerful and gamebreaking compared to his opponents, while understandable, is not neutral. When you have to bring in divine intervention to give the opposing character even a snowballs chance in the elemental plane of fire at winning something about this challenge needs to be reconsidered.

Yes, yes it does.  The kobold next door wins, end of discussion :)

fixed, assuming the SCM doesn't stalemate him because he was lazy and waited til the SCM got his mythal up.

Fixed the fix, assuming the kobold has any reason no not instantly know of this rules exploit and stop it.
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dark_samuari

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #195 on: March 19, 2010, 05:09:05 PM »
What if the non-caster sought and received the gift of a miracle or perhaps gained non-detection from a deity after performing some great challenge in their name?  

Havok4

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #196 on: March 19, 2010, 05:15:16 PM »

That is still divine intervention and DM Fiat, unless you can find the pricing for divine intervention and pay for it out of your WBL there is no way to block COP by RAW. You might be able to pull it off with a sufficiently liberal interpretation of the Miracle spell and purchasing a casting of that but that is not strictly RAW.

KellKheraptis

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #197 on: March 19, 2010, 05:16:49 PM »
What if the non-caster sought and received the gift of a miracle or perhaps gained non-detection from a deity after performing some great challenge in their name?  

Considering they can get Miracle at 17th from a single feat, it would do them no more good than another caster not properly prepared using Miracle or Nondetection.  And the real sticking point as stated before, is not "I wanna block your divination but I can't because nothing short of a fuckbag DM can do it!" but is in fact "No matter what divination or detection blocking I have, nothing prevents immunity to surprise, and as such, getting raped.  And also nothing prevents the wizard from preparing a suite of -Immune-To-Everything- spells each day when he's high level, because it's just plain a good investment."  This conundrum pretty well renders the conversation moot, even out of TO.  Knowing that people want you dead and that you have the means to prevent it is perfectly within the realms of reasonable CO, and as it just so happens, that means immunity to beatsticks.  And just about everything else, for that matter.
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Havok4

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #198 on: March 19, 2010, 05:18:55 PM »
nothing prevents immunity to surprise, and as such, getting raped.  

Divine oracle is a deceptively powerful Prc.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #199 on: March 19, 2010, 05:35:00 PM »
So, I'm failing to see how the wizard wins in any conventional sense. What you've been describing is a super powerful mage who has pulled himself away from the world into his invulnerable fortress of solitude guarded by his infinite guards and magical effects but you've yet to present any reason why he would ever be attacked. By making this character so isolated he's essentially closed himself off to any reason for attack. Why does the wizard ever leave his plane? Does he need to, it seems like he'd be pretty self-sufficient on his own.

DM: Alright, there's an almost omnipotent and omniscient wizard, guarded by impenetrable defenses on his own demiplane of terror and magical might.
Players: Okay, what has he done?
DM: Well nothing but he's really powerful so he could destroy the planes if he wanted!
Players: Well does he want to?
DM: Well no but...
Players: So than there's no really reason to go confront him?
It doesn't matter. The hypothetical situation is there is a mage, and a non-mage who wants to kill him. It doesn't matter why. If we don't go on that assumption, we have nothing to discuss.

Also, as I outlined before, the mage has plenty of ways to influence the world without actually physically leaving his demiplane. He can summon/call/create/permanently enslave powerful minions, and send them out into the world to do his bidding, or he can travel himself in the relative safety of an Astral Projection.
  
Quote
So you're angry that within game a deity would block an ever-increasingly powerful wizard? I don't know any game, any game, where the DM wouldn't eventually stop the use of CoP (even in the manner as described above because hey, it's both a lot more flavorful than just banning it out right and can actually bring something into the plot) when confronted with a TO-wizard who spams CoP as much as possible. You may cite it as DM Fiat but that's exactly why it's there, to control the guy your presenting.
I don't disagree with that at all. Of course the spell is fucking broken. That's the whole point of bringing it up all the time. The spell is so fucking broken that if you use it as written, the goddamned wizard is untouchable.

It's not the only one, either. It is one of the most powerful spells he has access to, but there are a crapton of ricockulously overpowered spells right there in the core books, and it only gets worse if you allow more sources. So if we're talking about "is there any way, within the actual RAW, for a non-caster to beat a paranoid wizard who uses combinations of the most powerful spells in the books in the most optimal way", the answer is "no, because his spells are way too fucking overpowered to ever actually get used in a game like that".

What angers me is when people say "Eh, wizards aren't that tough", and then every example they try to use to prove it involves them ignoring/nerfing the rules somehow, or relies on the DM limiting the wizard's spells in some way that isn't explicitly spelled out in the books*. You know what that means? You lost the fucking argument, and just can't admit it. Wizards are stupidly overpowered when played to the maximum of their capacity, and unless you houserule them or their players restrain themselves, non-casters have zero chance of ever taking one down, except in extremely rare exceptions (and even those can probably beaten by the wizard with enough cheese).

That was the entire premise behind the long, three-thread series on discussing, building, and then trying to take down powerful wizard builds. There were a few ideas that could certainly take down many wizards, and I think even one or two ways people came up with that might take on the most insane wizard. (Using the Breaching Obelisk to crash into his demiplane, and something else... I forget.) No one ever actually put up a build and said "Ok, that's it. Let's throw down", though. There are several wizard builds there. You can go look at their stats, and build your guy specifically to take them down. There is no wishy-washy TO changing the wizards abilities around to fit the new challenger. They'll be ran exactly as is. Go for it. I'd love to see someone succeed. No one has even tried yet.


*the rules don't tell you under what circumstances COP doesn't work, and so it is totally up to DM whim, which should be excluded in these kinds of arguments
« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 05:38:00 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]