The end of all "AntiMage" threads

[PhaedrusXY]

Wholeheartedly agree...I have been saying this for years. One DM in particular pulled this on me in the past, he kept changing the rules and making shit up mid battle just to suit him...he was the worst DM I ever met...He was just angry I knew the game better than he did. Most DMs I have met (although not as bad as the aforementioned) seem to have the mentality that they have to know the game better than me.

I always present the home-brew stuff at the beginning of the game, I tell the group that if someone starts min-maxing too much, or worse attempting a pun-pun, they get a few warnings before the home-brew stuff starts into the game. Min-maxing can be fun when it's appropriate. I've only had to pull out home-brew on a couple players who needed to learn that having fun in a game doesn't mean wrecking the game for everyone else. Everyone has their own view of fun, but in games like these you also have to consider who your playing with as well.

So is this home-brew stuff monster only or something? What keeps the PCs from using it? Is it templates with huge level adjustments, or what?

[Brainpiercing]

There's a lot of precedent for NPC-only/Monster-only, etc., material in the books. As little as I like it, it's not unusual...

So I guess I can't entirely damn him for making stuff like that, too. HOWEVER, in MY book it has to be judged very carefully to be consistend with the game world. But then maybe I'm just a consistency freak.

[PhaedrusXY]

There's a lot of precedent for NPC-only/Monster-only, etc., material in the books. As little as I like it, it's not unusual...

So I guess I can't entirely damn him for making stuff like that, too. HOWEVER, in MY book it has to be judged very carefully to be consistend with the game world. But then maybe I'm just a consistency freak.

Yeah, I'm just curious. The easy way to make it "NPC only" is to slap a huge cost to it somehow, like a +8 level adjustment, and/or that they're permanently enslaved to some other not-PC-appropriate creature (like voidmind and dragonspawn are supposed to be).

[jseah]

Yeah but your idea isn't RAW, its a variant way to handle COP.

With COP being as powerful as it is already do you really think anyone would try to improve upon it by adjudicating it in a manner not described in RAW? You would have to have one crazy DM (who's probably only doing it because it serves his interests more).

Actually, I would think that my interpretation is RAW.  Since, by RAW, the answer IS correct, whether the DM can answer it at the moment is a metagame thing and isn't part of the equation.  

So, if metagame constraints prevent RAW from being carried out, then a workaround to enforce how the spell works by RAW would apply.  

In this case, I'm not saying that the character gets to retcon actions after the fact, the character would get to predefine two sets of actions based on a Yes or No answer and then play as if he took one set and retcon to the other set of actions if the answer indicates so.  It's not like the character gains any new abilities, it's just the best approximation of a perfectly accurate future prediction.  

EDIT:
For people implying that Vecna-Blooded or Mindblank can protect against COP... FYI, it can't protect against the more esoteric uses of COP.  
Simply because COP can ask ANY question and get it answered.  Direct questions against the character with divination immunity will fail.  Hypothetical questions about imaginary universes will not.  It's probably not something that will fly in a game though, unless your DM likes logic puzzles.  (like me XD)

EDIT2:
Furthermore, Vecna-Blooded and/or Mindblank will not prevent the caster from telling there is some divination-blocking going on.  Even in CO. 

Questions like,
"Is there any information about threats that I will get in 24 hours of which I have not received information of in the last 1 hour?"
 - If the divination immune character acts to do something involving you, then you will get information about him (if only that something attacked you)
 - Said attack is not revealed by COP questions because that character is immune
 - Thus, conditions set by the question is satisfied and it returns yes
 - Further questions about when you will get the information can narrow down the time of the attack

Theoretical: you can technically probe for the information you will get in the future and it will only concern you and thus bypass all divination immunity.  Just ask about things you will know in the future and poof. 
 - The answer, if true, but will "change" the future. 
   - If any other answer is given, the attacker will get to you, and thus you will know, making that answer false
   - If the correct answer is given, you now know the information, making this self-fulfilling (and the attacker might/might not get to you)

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

- Said attack is not revealed by COP questions because that character is immune
 - Thus, conditions set by the question is satisfied and it returns yes

The condition is satisfied. However the question still cannot return a yes: "Such divination [aka 'cast to learn information about it'] fails to reveal any information." Theoretical universes should fall under this category too. So no you can't get further questions about the time of the attack.

By the way (again) I'm not assuming an antimage would be stupid enough to hunt full casters. Its more like not dying from any. Therefore the questions about the full caster don't turn up anything:
[spoiler]

Theoretical: you can technically probe for the information you will get in the future and it will only concern you and thus bypass all divination immunity.  Just ask about things you will know in the future and poof.

[/spoiler]

[jseah]

- Said attack is not revealed by COP questions because that character is immune
 - Thus, conditions set by the question is satisfied and it returns yes

The condition is satisfied. However the question still cannot return a yes: "Such divination [aka 'cast to learn information about it'] fails to reveal any information." Theoretical universes should fall under this category too. So no you can't get further questions about the time of the attack.

Yes, it can return a yes.  To clarify, I meant said attack is not revealed by normal COP questions.  This question doesn't concern the divination immune subject, all it concerns is you, the caster.  It reveals no (direct) information about the divination immune target, only about the caster.  Information about the divination immune target is deduced using logic from these indirect methods. 

Theoretical universes are a hypothetical construct not concerning anything about the target in the real universe and is completely out of the scope of anything at all, making them able to answer any and all questions. 
Since the parameters of the theoretical universes are set by you, you can "turn off" divination immunity at the specific point in time you are looking at. 
"Hypothetically, what would the answer be to question (X) in a universe identical to our own except for (Y) change.  "
 - Where (Y) is "Contact Other Plane is not a divination effect", or "Divination immunity fails to operate at current point in time"
 - (X) is whatever you want to ask about the target

If you want to get even more TO, you can ask, "According to X's algorithm of questions and parameters, what is the answer to Y question," where X is a published book of divination algorithms.  Publish it yourself if you want to.  At least you get somthing named after you. 

By the way (again) I'm not assuming an antimage would be stupid enough to hunt full casters. Its more like not dying from any. Therefore the questions about the full caster don't turn up anything:
[spoiler]

Theoretical: you can technically probe for the information you will get in the future and it will only concern you and thus bypass all divination immunity.  Just ask about things you will know in the future and poof.

[/spoiler]

If I am going to attack someone, or doing anything to someone, it is highly unlikely that I will not know about it. (unless as part of some strange complex Xanathos Gambit)

[SorO_Lost]

Theoretical universes are a hypothetical construct not concerning anything about the target in the real universe and is completely out of the scope of anything at all

Exactly.

Hypothetical questions about theoretical worlds receive abstract answers of speculations. It is foolish to think of them as fact.

***

Can you beat an uber COP using wizard using nothing more than a trap finding rogue and the leadership feat? I can!

BoVD is all you need to beat a wizard.
[spoiler]Any 5th level+ evil creature in the game issue a dying curse, they don't even have to fight the wizard or die by his hand to issue the curse.
And thus the legion of Power Stoppers is born. All PS initiates and cohorts are LE and required to die and issue a dying curse. When the target wizard is captured and thrown into an antimagic cell controled by the PS and all his toys and plane is destroyed the initiate is True Resed (ending the curse) and becomes a full member. Cohorts are not so lucky but know what they are getting into and believe those nasty wizards should pay for whatever reason.

Trifling with a full member is most wizards would not dare do as curses from them cannot be removed by contingencies and always have a way of turning their would be geased allies in much of the same way they them selves are targeted. The more or less clever ones, the ones who use their 36 int instead of being dependent on COP, try to frame other wizards only to find out members are not above COPing them selves thus learning exactly who messed with the group.

When a typical ECL 17+ member is killed the following is a standard list of curses issued.
1: Int is reduced to 1. No more spells.
2: Con is reduced to 1. -5HP off a 1d4HD? Guess who has 20HP now...
3: Wis is reduced to 1. So retarded at this point you think you're normal.
4: Cha is reduced to 1. Good luck convincing anyone not to kill you.
5: Str is reduced to 1. Pretty sure your buckler at this point means you cannot move and you're too dumb/weak to unfasten it like a cat with it's head stuck in a jar.
6: Each turn, the subject has a 25% chance to act normally; otherwise, he takes no action. For the lolz.Loss from abilities means your at -13 total.Even your familiar hates you now, suck it.
9: The target cannot cast spells, use spell-like abilities, or activate spell completion or spell trigger items. Well, you never know.
10: Target is struck blind and deaf. It's on the lower level list and since it's not more powerful it's fair game.
Additionally the hated by 50% of all people met is normally employed by another initiate or the cohort in an attempt to ensure no one is willing to help the wizard end his problem while geased allies are also cursed into being unable to help. All curses are ended by the same requirements in which the cursers are waiting before their TR.

Can you beat a blind deaf man with no mental stats unable to act 75% of the time with only 20hp whom everyone hates? I can![/spoiler]

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Technically you can't do that, since the wizard hasn't "wronged" you.

[SorO_Lost]

Technically you can't do that, since the wizard hasn't "wronged" you.

1. As an organization of people that feel is it wrong to amass so much power and to demand a god's attention it isn't that far of a stretch.

2. In the dirty trick thread I mention using Mind Rape, so they believe they were wronged. Though that is direct spellcasting powers there and may not work within the confines of this thread.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

I don't think mind rape actually works for things like love's pain or death curses.  Just because you're forced to believe something to be true doesn't mean it actually is.

[jseah]

Since the curses can't actually kill you, and that you, in using Mind Rape + Dying Curse, have established that precedent, the wizard can sit in his plane and use Mind Rape + Love's Pain to nuke all of you. 

He'll suffer the curse yes, in the safety of his own demiplane.  The entire operation is carried out by his own simulacrums / Ice Assassins / Mind Raped creatures.  Which may well be as powerful as him.  And he can have more of them than you have people. 

[Anklebite]

no one thought of doing the deathcursing with psicrystals? for shame.

how low a level can you be and have a 17HD psicrystal?

[Azrael]

the wizard can sit in his plane and use Mind Rape + Love's Pain to nuke all of you. 

Unless they -for some reason- happen to be immune to mind affecting...cause that never happens at high levels.

[dark_samuari]

I don't think mind rape actually works for things like love's pain or death curses.  Just because you're forced to believe something to be true doesn't mean it actually is.

I think the issue here is if the individual has to have actually been wronged or only feel they have been wronged. This is the biggest issue because if not we can have individual's disguised as the all-mighty wizard and wronging dozens of would-be curse givers.

[SorO_Lost]

He'll suffer the curse yes, in the safety of his own demiplane.  The entire operation is carried out by his own simulacrums / Ice Assassins / Mind Raped creatures. Which may well be as powerful as him.  And he can have more of them than you have people. 

Thats the cool part of it.

The mind raped creatures are allies thus turn on the wizard and try to kill him (or at least escape). It's a bad day when all your followers, cohorts, lovers, and pets turn on you and you cannot see or hear them creeping up for revenge or boredom.

Simulacrum: No special telepathic link exists, so command must be exercised in some other manner., the wizard is blind/deaf and has 1 int/wis. Does he even remember how to find his simulacrum, further self simulacrum's are half level and thus no shapechange/celerity or even planesshift for that matter. An easy fight for a 20th level character as gear worn alone is enough to win. Simulacrum of 40hd creatures are more problematic and you kinda have to relive on the poor flinging wizard to forget.

Ice Assassins depend on who but are also irrelevant at the same time. Long ago another wizard, member of the Power Stoppers created an Ice Assassin designed to kill all other Ice Assassins before they are created and they used Pun-Pun's toe nail. It takes one caster in the history of all time to do this and it screws over everyone for all times.

What's that leave?
Golems? Golems are problems for spellcasters. Even in core brutes ignore their DR and slice/bash them to death easy enough.
Undead? Everything lacking an int score is bypassed by a Shirt of Wraith Staking & everything with an int score is trying to feast on the wizard's brain.
Dominated minions?  All weaklings, or with an item of magic circle against evil (or w/e) frees them long enough for them to either cast their own PoE or IHS away the problem anyway.
Geas'ed people? Probably the hardest, and the cheapest to acquire too. Probably have to issue curses to them.

Really, no wizard gains this much power as the club of Power Stoppers would have responded long, long ago so theres that to consider. They are like the assassins in that movie with Angelina Jolie, only at least half the members are allowing to see the source and no one can tweak it in their favor. PS is a non DM solution for everything and would make for a possible campaign hook as they could be hiring out adventurers to distract wizards.

[Azrael]

I don't think mind rape actually works for things like love's pain or death curses.  Just because you're forced to believe something to be true doesn't mean it actually is.

I think the issue here is if the individual has to have actually been wronged or only feel they have been wronged. This is the biggest issue because if not we can have individual's disguised as the all-mighty wizard and wronging dozens of would-be curse givers.

Not what I'm talking about...love's pain has the mind affecting descriptor, therefore, any time you try to use the excuse "my high level wizard kills yours because hes on another plane using mind rape/love's pain" you have to remember that if the defending wizard is immune to mind affecting it wont harm him. Honestly, as common as having that immunity is I'm surprised at the amount of attention mind rape/love's pain gets. Every single one of my high level characters is immune to mind affecting (and so should just about anyone), so I never feel threatened by that.

[Tonymitsu]

I don't think mind rape actually works for things like love's pain or death curses.  Just because you're forced to believe something to be true doesn't mean it actually is.

I think the issue here is if the individual has to have actually been wronged or only feel they have been wronged. This is the biggest issue because if not we can have individual's disguised as the all-mighty wizard and wronging dozens of would-be curse givers.

Not what I'm talking about...love's pain has the mind affecting descriptor, therefore, any time you try to use the excuse "my high level wizard kills yours because hes on another plane using mind rape/love's pain" you have to remember that if the defending wizard is immune to mind affecting it wont harm him. Honestly, as common as having that immunity is I'm surprised at the amount of attention mind rape/love's pain gets. Every single one of my high level characters is immune to mind affecting (and so should just about anyone), so I never feel threatened by that.

Re-read Love's Pain again...

You aren't targeting the wizard, you are targeting the level 1 Commoner you just Mindraped to think that the wizard is his closest friend and/or dearest loved one.

The only way listed for you, the wizard, to avoid the effects of this is if you are in an antimagic field at the time.

...Unless of course you want to have your wizard go around giving every level 1 Commoner mind blank as well...

[Azrael]

I AM SO FUCKING SICK OF THIS GOD DAMNED ARGUMENT!

First of all, It doesn't say "the only way" It merely states it as a clause.

Like this.

A fires a gun at B

B can avoid the bullet if he has C

there is nothing stating C is the only clause for avoiding the bullet, just that it is merely one of them.


SECONDLY...

The god damn spell carries the mind affecting descriptor...it doesn't matter who is targeted with the spell. ANYTHING that the spell accomplishes (direct damage or otherwise) will ADDITIONALLY carry the mind affecting descriptor! If it states somewhere in the spell that it is no longer mind affecting (as some spells will; i.e. "is no longer fire damage"...etc) when it affects the secondary target then fine. However, it does not state this. Thus, BY RAW, ANYTHING...let me repeat ANYTHING the spell accomplishes will additionally carry the mind affecting descriptor...there is no other way to see this...

I'm so sick of arguing this shit with people. You people don't even realize the illogical process you are using to justify your argument! I am merely stating how all spells operate by RAW and you are trying to argue that somehow the spell somehow loses its descriptor (inherent in almost every spell) for absolutely no reason! If you need more proof that a spell needs to specify in order to exclude clauses inherent within the original description then look at how love's pain specifies that the secondary target doesn't get a save or SR, something which the spell allows in the description.

Therefore, I submit to you this...If the damage to the secondary target was not to be mind affecting in nature it should have specified, just as it did with save and SR, that it is no longer mind affecting.


If the spell inflicts damage, direct or otherwise, the damage (unless otherwise specified) will carry any of the attributes of said spell. The damage isn't coming from nowhere, the SPELL is causing the damage, thus, the damage is mind affecting.

I don't know how many fucking times I need to repeat this before you people understand!


*Napoleon Dynamite* GOD!

[dark_samuari]

Dungeons and Dragons, serious business...

[Azrael]

It is!

I'm just so sick of repeating this over and over and over...its basically common sense, but since people like JaronK argue otherwise (cause its his baby) my arguments are overlooked.


Next person gets post 300!