Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin

[snakeman830]

I tried using it myself, got a bunch of Dire enemies that have no "dire" version (including some vermin and a triceratops).  I know exactly which one it is because the encounters I got similarly made no sense.

[Bauglir]

True, classes are metagame concepts, which in turn means that wearing a Monk's Outfit is not a sign of weakness because there is no "monk" to be weak. You can get armorless, not good with weapons, maybe a few more characteristics that haven't yet come to mind. A Sorc 4 or whatever isn't actually going to be useful (so it's just a meatshield) and the dragon, in all likelihood, won't be able to tell the difference between it and the adept. Saying you effectively get a miss chance is fine; saying the dragon will avoid the Adept, specifically, is not. Though in a few levels, this will become dramatically less useful a strategy once the discerning dragon (IE anything but a white) can get arcane sight permanencied on itself, and quickly notice which of the creatures invading its home is the most blinged out. That is more of a high-level thing, though.

[The_Laughing_Man]

The mature adult white dragon needs for the permanent arcane sight two scrolls (and luck).

1 scroll of arcane sight (11 CL) 825 gp and 1 scroll of permanency (11 CL, up to 1500 xp) 8875 gp. The sum is 9700 gp.

The dragon has to beat two caster level checks of DC 12 in order to cast these arcane scrolls. The dragon has CL 3 from sorcerer levels so changes of success is (11/20)^2*100 = 30,25%. The changes get better with items and feats that increase its caster level.

[The_Laughing_Man]

One thing I noticed is that the mature adult white dragon can in fact affect the adept out of the box.

It could use its SLAs (3/day) Fog Cloud (130 ft) or Gust of Wind (60 ft, DC 13 fort) vs adepts 55 ft Scorhing Ray, FWIW.

Also if the dragon just flies overhead or snarls (range 30 ft*7 age categories=210 ft) the frightful presence (ex) kicks in. Failure on a DC 21 will save causes the target to be panicked (1-4 target's HD) or shaken (5-11 target's HD) for 4d6 rounds.

[oslecamo]

Blacks and Blues, though, with their long-range lines would probably kill both the Adept and the Monk with equal ease.

It's trivial for the white dragon to get a long range line breath weapon with a simple feat. It's actualy something expected of a dragon that still didn't get his spellcasting at full power. But of course the monster ecounters aren't allowed to use anything resembling decent tactics against the adept here. They aren't even allowed to use feats or skills.

[Mixster]

Blacks and Blues, though, with their long-range lines would probably kill both the Adept and the Monk with equal ease.

It's trivial for the white dragon to get a long range line breath weapon with a simple feat. It's actualy something expected of a dragon that still didn't get his spellcasting at full power. But of course the monster ecounters aren't allowed to use anything resembling decent tactics against the adept here. They aren't even allowed to use feats or skills.

I very much think they ARE allowed to use tactics against the adept and the monk. Just that the tactic of snatching up random humanoids from a group of zombies, isn't really a sound tactic.

[Sobolev]

Blacks and Blues, though, with their long-range lines would probably kill both the Adept and the Monk with equal ease.

It's trivial for the white dragon to get a long range line breath weapon with a simple feat. It's actualy something expected of a dragon that still didn't get his spellcasting at full power. But of course the monster ecounters aren't allowed to use anything resembling decent tactics against the adept here. They aren't even allowed to use feats or skills.

We've already decided that a White Dragon played above it's Int Score would wipe the floor with both, and a whole bunch of other classes besides.  Just let it go.

[Halinn]

Blacks and Blues, though, with their long-range lines would probably kill both the Adept and the Monk with equal ease.

It's trivial for the white dragon to get a long range line breath weapon with a simple feat. It's actualy something expected of a dragon that still didn't get his spellcasting at full power. But of course the monster ecounters aren't allowed to use anything resembling decent tactics against the adept here. They aren't even allowed to use feats or skills.

This has been mentioned before, on page 31, reply #617, back when Shinzen was building a dragon with spells and feats (such as entangling exhalation that totally killed the monk, and nerveskitter that meant the monk did not have an initiative advantage). Nobody contested that increasing the range of the breath weapon would defeat the adept easily, if the dragon did strafing tactics with that.

[Lo77o]

If range is an issue, the Adept could cast hammer of righteousness, that is 220 feet range, and 12d8, save for half. That should put a dent in the dragon as well.

[The_Laughing_Man]

If range is an issue, the Adept could cast hammer of righteousness, that is 220 feet range, and 12d8, save for half. That should put a dent in the dragon as well.

I think that spell is not adept's spell list.

[Shiki]

If range is an issue, the Adept could cast hammer of righteousness, that is 220 feet range, and 12d8, save for half. That should put a dent in the dragon as well.

I think that spell is not adept's spell list.

Sanctified spell. Check out BoED.

[Lo77o]

If range is an issue, the Adept could cast hammer of righteousness, that is 220 feet range, and 12d8, save for half. That should put a dent in the dragon as well.

I think that spell is not adept's spell list.

Its on all non-evil, preparing spellcasters list. So the Adept JaronK made could cast it.. he could also cast every other level 4 and below exalted and vile spell out there.

[JaronK]

It's already been established a while ago that an optimized White Dragon ought to crush both players.  However, we DID have a White Dragon with feats and tactics, and the Adept had a decent shot against it while the Monk couldn't do anything.  I think the fact that we have to optimize the White Dragon a bit before it can take down the Adept easily, but we barely have to do anything more than base logic against the Monk, clearly shows which class is better in this fight.

And Oslo: find one instance of anyone saying the dragon can't use feats and tactics.  Try not to find anything by the guy who was "DMing" this encounter where he mentioned the feats and tactics he wanted to use, because that would kill your case.

@Halinn: the Centaurs aren't an issue because after the White Dragon fight the Adept got a Zombie Mature Adult White Dragon, which has enough speed to just run up and Crush any one enemy, allowing the others in the group to take that enemy out... then he can repeat.  Can't kite away from that flight speed.

@Lo77o: Clever.  Hadn't remembered that fact about Sanctified Spells.  God, that gives a lot of extra options I hadn't even considered!

JaronK

[The_Laughing_Man]

@Shiki, Lo77o: Ok, sanctified magic BoED p.83 kosher for adepts. Never paid attention that one before, thanks for pointing it out! Only limitation is to utterly devote to good. BoVD p.77 corrupt magic is for the evil ones. I suppose one must choose between sanctified and corrupt magic.

[Solo]

I think the fact that we have to optimize the White Dragon a bit before it can take down the Adept easily, but we barely have to do anything more than base logic against the Monk, clearly shows which class is better in this fight.

Not necessarily. It could just mean that "Giacomo" sucks at proving his position.

[JaronK]

Possibly, though his last Monk was using a heck of a lot of potent ACFs.  Maybe someone else should make one?  But try to make it similar in optimization level to the Adept being compared, if possible.

JaronK

[Lo77o]

@Shiki, Lo77o: Ok, sanctified magic BoED p.83 kosher for adepts. Never paid attention that one before, thanks for pointing it out! Only limitation is to utterly devote to good. BoVD p.77 corrupt magic is for the evil ones. I suppose one must choose between sanctified and corrupt magic.

One require you to be non-evil, the other non-good. So any neutral char can cast both.

[Lycanthromancer]

Possibly, though his last Monk was using a heck of a lot of potent ACFs.  Maybe someone else should make one?  But try to make it similar in optimization level to the Adept being compared, if possible.

JaronK

Does the monk that I helped Snakeman830 make count? I'm pretty sure it has a chance of taking out the dragon on its own.

[JaronK]

Sure, why not?  How would you expect the fight to go with the dragon?  I notice you have Darkstalker, so while the dragon might be alerted to the presence of a threat by traps being sprung or by the rest of a party, you actually could get a surprise round on the dragon with that guy (is the hide/move silently modifier high enough?).

JaronK

[Sir Giacomo]

and my monk build1a) Adept vs dragon
[spoiler]
The adept very likely has no chance vs the dragon, even (and probably even because of!) his animal/zombie zoo.

[/spoiler]

1b) Monk vs dragon

• He has stealth abilities. He could try an ambush somewhere outside the lair after observing the dragon for a while (the monk has ring of sustenance, he can take his time). Also, his knowledge-arcane skill may be useful. Also, his high spot and listen modifiers will help him not to be surprised by the dragon.

• First of all, the technical comparison above when dealing with challenges like the white dragon illustrates that the monk will provide more power to the group.