Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin

[Sobolev]

Actually an excellent point for the dragon. From Spellcraft:


Considering that the effects of dominate are in plain view (bunch of dudes obeying the caster's orders), then you always get the spellcraft check. No action required,  and no chance of failure for the dragon's skill level. The dominated minions are automatically identified.

Or possibly that guy is just the boss, or possibly that guy is just smart, etc.

Well, no, that's what he'd probably assume on a failed check, but provided that the quote from Spellcraft's rules is accurate, it seems pretty clear that the dragon could do this. It's stupid, because it allows you to bypass the Sense Motive rules, and therefore probably is against RAI, but if you can see the people being dominated, you clearly see the effects of the spell (even if, because you can't make the Sense Motive check, you don't understand the implications of the effects; RAW, Spellcraft doesn't require that).

I'm pretty skeptical that seeing a dominated person counts as seeing or detecting the spell in effect.  Without some physical manifestation, it should follow the same rules as trying to spellcraft a stilled, silent spell, which is to say, ridiculously hard if not impossible.

Yeah, I have to agree there. There's no obvious sign that the minions are being controlled; Necrotic Domination functions like Dominate Person, so the commands are telepathic. Now if you have Arcane Sight/Detect Magic up, it's a different matter entirely, but as I understand it, the chance of the dragon getting a Permanent Arcane Sight via scrolls is slim if it doesn't spend additional money to increase its caster level.

And even those give you school, and strength, not an effect.  Just because Dominate Person is OOC a common spell, doesn't mean in D&D everyone IC should immediately know that an Enchantment spell of that level or what have you, is that one spell.

[Lo77o]

First off, thanks for looking over my Adept build

And i am aware that i wont be able to spot a dragon who is hiding, but what i was hoping was that if the dragon cant see me, he might not know what to hide from, and i might get around cover or concealment, in which case he cant hide from me any more, unless he has hide in plain sight.

I know its a long shot.. But if the dragon stays hidden ill just nick all his treasure and leave him alone

The Ring of Vanishing is just a backup item in case i need some silent casting, or once i notice the dragon and i want to stay hidden. I will be counting on my invisibility to darkvision (Ring of the Darkhidden) + darkstalker + Hide to keep the dragon from finding me. Unless the dragon gets very close to me, he wont know what square i am in, and by that time i would hopefully be able to see the damn bugger

Ahh.. here you got me. If the dragon is anywhere near the entrance he will most likely know that a spellcaster is at his door. There is not much i can do about that unless i want to burn a use of my ring, as you pointed out. But detect magic should reveal any magical traps, and a unseen servant should trigger any non-magical traps.

Otherwise ill have to wait outside for the damn dragon, and that is hardly any fun :S

-   The ready action can only be used during combat, not before combat has started. So once the dragon surprises your character and/or wins initiative, the boots will be no help (as I guess is likely, its initiative mod beats yours by a big margin). It is therefore likely, that the dragon will charge/move, snatch, grapple, kill the adept (the boots will not help out of the grapple imo due to the move activation). In case that the dragon remains hidden for a while, the ring of vanishing effect will go away. As soon as that happens, the dragon with listen skill can pinpoint the adept fumbling around the cave (move silently +2) easily. So the surprise round likely goes to the dragon as well.

Bugger, i hate when i make RAW mistakes. I am sorry, i should know better.

But the dragon still needs to find me, then locate the square i am in, and then hit me while i am invisible. This is not impossible, but it is unlikely. And once the dragon has shown its self he will be down in less then 6 seconds. And if not, ill be 100% undetectable and legging it

Thanks for the praise I think i might be blushing i little  . But in all seriousness, i find it unlikely for anyone to use this spell in a wand unless they already are build for taking ability damage (binders/incarnum chars and so on). But yes it is possible to do safely for anyone with UMD and a 3 feat investment.

All in all i think you have some valid points, but personally i think i would have a greater then even chance of either taking out the dragon, stealing his treasure or neither but still survive.

- Lo77o

[Halinn]

What are you arguing?  To what ends are you making that argument?

Jaronk claims that his adept somehow blends perfectly in the background while his minions and zombies automatically draw aggro from any monsters MMO style for unphatomable reasons (that dude has a book and a wooden staff! He's clearly a mighty archmage!). I just present the several ways on how the enemy can see the adept is clearly the target to take down as he's the one pulling the strings of all the group and is the key link to take down.

Actually, I claimed that there is a significant chance that the adept won't be immediately identified as the primary threat, given some disguises. You can get pretty varied with the stuff, so at first impression, there will be several enemies that each look like potential threats, oh, and some dude in light armor trying to look scared in the middle of the crowd.

[Bauglir]

You're right, effect does have a defined in-game meaning. My bad. For future reference, though, that's the only functioning objection. You don't require a wizard to have to know that the wall of glittering light has a chance to petrify you or shift you to another plane of existence before allowing a Spellcraft check to figure out that it's Prismatic Wall; you don't require a wizard to know that the glyph carved on the wall will kill you before allowing Spellcraft to figure out that it's a Symbol of Death. It doesn't matter whether the effect is obvious, or whether or not the Wizard actually understands what's going on about it. They get to make the Spellcraft check because they can observe the effect, not because they can understand it (whether or not they understand it is what Spellcraft is for). The effect that I thought existed was the creatures obeying orders, but the spell doesn't have an Effect line and so that isn't actually an effect that can be observed.

Notably, Iron Heart Surge is rather less broken than we tend to treat it, although it's still far from balanced.

[Nachofan99]

I find a lot of contradictory RAW stuff in PHB regarding the whole "Effect" argument, although I do not think it is invalid.  I do not particularly care one way or the other and I also do not care to argue about that because it's not a crucial part of this challenge IMO.

If you want to just cherry pick one passage go to PHB  pg. 176 and look at "Subjects, Effects, and Areas".  It indicates there that "Charm" is a  "Result" not an "Effect".

[ImperatorK]

but the spell doesn't have an Effect line and so that isn't actually an effect that can be observed.

Can't "charm/dominate" effects be observed via Sense Motive? Why would a spell not identify another spell, if it's its function?

[snakeman830]

but the spell doesn't have an Effect line and so that isn't actually an effect that can be observed.

Can't "charm/dominate" effects be observed via Sense Motive? Why would a spell not identify another spell, if it's its function?

There's no spell under discussion here, it's Spellcraft (a skill).

There are no observable effects for Charm/Dominate, so Spellcraft can't identify them specifically.  It can be used, in conjunction with Arcane Sight or Detect Magic, to determine there's an Enchantment spell of level X-Y on a target, but not identify the spell itself unless its effects are observed.

[ImperatorK]

but the spell doesn't have an Effect line and so that isn't actually an effect that can be observed.

Can't "charm/dominate" effects be observed via Sense Motive? Why would a spell not identify another spell, if it's its function?

There's no spell under discussion here, it's Spellcraft (a skill).

There are no observable effects for Charm/Dominate, so Spellcraft can't identify them specifically.  It can be used, in conjunction with Arcane Sight or Detect Magic, to determine there's an Enchantment spell of level X-Y on a target, but not identify the spell itself unless its effects are observed.

Ah, I see.

[weenog]

So the monk is using a surprise round only exception to broaden his options to react to the dragon which is already acting, because the surprise round is over and gone?  I'm still wondering how the monk is charging as a standard action, he's not doing it that way.

[SorO_Lost]

-   Where is the butterfly sword from and why did you not need to spend a proficiency feat on it?

OA, free proficiency with it. Way the Rules are written, you could do something silly like TWF & Snap Kick while subbing the sword into each and every attack (it uses your more favorable number of attacks per round).

A. I'm less attached to presenting my Monk as fighting the idiots here than you are.
B. It was posted when things finally took a positive turn about trying to post a decent Monk
C. The wand is meant to UMD stuff (ironic huh?) but could be used for that if you'd like.
D. Much like Lo77o's Adapt, we both built bigger and badder characters than you and JaronK did. However, in order for the trolling to continue, you must stick to builds that have easily arguably tactics and unable to fight their way out of a paper bag. And as such, everyone just glazes over them, maybe noting a few things for their next game, then jump back into the last argument posted.

Blink calls out you only fall at half the speed and is nice enough to throw in a reminder that ethereal creatures can fly. Pretty sure you can fly, after all 50% of the time you are moving up, and 50% of the time you lose your upward momentum and float. Given these Blinks happen at plot rate; if attacked 30 times in a round you could have blinked in and out 30~60 times, if you stop moving in a wall in a given round you blinked once and remain ethereal until you move out. It's feasible and more logical than how Blink works to begin with.

You cannot AOO people with Total Concealment, which the Monk has in every situation where direct sunlight isn't there to muck things up (like being in an ice covered dragon lair).

-   I see no way your character can avoid the dragon attacking first/gaining the surprise round since your monk has no spot ranks.

The Monk isn't dedicated towards dragonslaying and instead relies on the fact He always has Total Concealment preventing everyone else from spotting him even if it means being a night owl to do so. Blindsense poses a challenge, but then again what are the chances you would stumble into a dragon's lair without ever knowing a dragon lived in the region? Also without Hide ranks it's 1d20-8 vs 1d20+3. And frankly, forget Spot, drop Power Lunge for Lifesense if you really really really need super sight.

-   Where did you get track as a bonus feat from? As far as I can see you took the overwhelming assault ACF for level 1 and 2. But for the 6th level?

Broken One^CoV, 6th sub, lose bonus feat for Track, this sub has Survival as a class skill and you don't get the 6th level ability from the UA Monk Variants unless you meet the prerequisites. Since Bullrush/Overrun sucks, I wasn't going to waste four skill points in dancing.

-   Probably combining our build ideas to use battle jump/shock trooper with my unarmed-damage-augmenting effects would end in a monk at 12th level doing about 300 dmg or more per round (killing the dragon in just one round).

Why would I combine with yours? As mentioned if that build picked up Lifedrinker (DMG, specific weapons) which it can afford (and more) with a lv12 WBL limit, and Snap Kick as it's 12th level feat. Without any further augmentation such as more BAB into Power Attack or Str changes it deals 254* damage on average and the dragon has 241 HP. Mine does the job and does it without focusing on a certain monster, or even focusing entirely on combat.

*Build's 3d6+93, +1d6 good + -20 HP loss for 2 negative levels * 2 for attacking twice via Snap Kick.

***

So the monk is using a surprise round only exception to broaden his options to react to the dragon which is already acting, because the surprise round is over and gone?  I'm still wondering how the monk is charging as a standard action, he's not doing it that way.

A. means you can charge in a Surprise Round (you are denied your Move Action).
B. Battle Jump's initial statement is Benefit: You can execute a charge by simply dropping from a height of at least 5 feet above your opponent. and none of the following rules contradict or even further explains what that is supposed to mean. Further Normal: Anybody can try to jump down on an enemy, but it is not considered a charge, and they do not gain double damage or the size bonus for the ensuing attack. pretty says "yep, this feat is intended to be fracking broken and allow charging by jumping around".

[snakeman830]

(Negative Levels are only -5hp if you didn't take the one feat in Libris Mortis that specifically increases it)

[JaronK]

What are you arguing?  To what ends are you making that argument?

Jaronk claims that his adept somehow blends perfectly in the background while his minions and zombies automatically draw aggro from any monsters MMO style for unphatomable reasons (that dude has a book and a wooden staff! He's clearly a mighty archmage!). I just present the several ways on how the enemy can see the adept is clearly the target to take down as he's the one pulling the strings of all the group and is the key link to take down.

Go ahead, try to find one quote of me saying anything like that.  You can't.  Why?  Because you only argue with strawmen.

What I have said is that there's a lot of targets out there (Necrotic Dominated PC class guys, undead minions, animals) so the chances of the dragon singling out the Adept in the first attack are pretty low, especially since he knows nothing about the encounter.  If he uses magical detection, it actually gets worse... the only people without a Necromancy effect on them (Necrotic Dominate is Necromancy, btw) are the Adept, the undead minions, and the animals.  The Necromancy effect is on PC class characters... it looks like they have some kind of buff on the important people.

By the way, he has neither a book nor a wooden staff.

But seriously, it's good to know that everyone always attacks Adepts first over PC class characters.  In my next group, I'll be sure to hire a low level Adept to travel with us, since that guarantees that all ambushes will target him.  Think that'll work?

JaronK

[Sir Giacomo]

Hm. Thanks for the information, SorO_Lost, although I do not share your conviction that your build is so much superior to mine :
The blink does not grant fly. The spell doesn't mention it, and when you fall half of the time, you cannot really move up (whenever the monk is in the material plane he falls and does not float). Total concealment does not negate listen for pinpointing, nor does lifesense allow you to pinpoint a hidden opponent as far as I understand the feat.
Finally, about the damage of your monk build I am not so sure.
snakeman830 already pointed out the hp damage from level loss meaning - just as my build - you'll not be able to kill the dragon in one round on average. Then, the lifedrinker is a specific weapon and I thus do not think it can be combined easily with a monk weapon and/or the other enhancements that you already assumed in your build (like valorous). Well, I guess you can (given that I also use custom items), but I guess calculating the total cost is tricky. Is the butterfly sword a light weapon? If yes, I think it cannot be wielded two-handed (you could use a quarterstaff though - why use the butterfly sword? For fluff?)
The base damage of the sword you indicate is 1d6. How do you then get 3d6 (extra damage dice are not multiplied)?

What I meant with combining our build ideas is to somehow get your charge multipliers with my high base unarmed damage together. For instance, by getting a pounce effect or ways to charge and full attack, because then a decisive strike monk doing colossal+ size damage at level 12 would be doing snap kicked 12d6*4*2 damage=96d6=336 damage (not counting the bonuses from STR etc).
That is what I meant with "better than our two builds alone"

- Giacomo

PS @JaronK:  Please accept that your army tactics will not work... the dragon is able to find the adept easily. He cannot bluff, he cannot hide, he cannot disguise well enough for the dragon not to notice him. And at teh very latest  the moment the first web or scorching ray is out, the dragon will know. And that single attack will not equal the counterattack that the dragon does.

[Halinn]

PS @JaronK:  Please accept that your army tactics will not work... the dragon is able to find the adept easily. He cannot bluff, he cannot hide, he cannot disguise well enough for the dragon not to notice him. And at teh very latest  the moment the first web or scorching ray is out, the dragon will know. And that single attack will not equal the counterattack that the dragon does.

@Giacomo: please accept that the point of the 'army' is to allow the adept time to begin getting those rays cast, in the relative safety of a mob. We're talking about a group maybe 10-15 men/zombies strong. Are you seriously claiming that the dragon would fly down in the middle of a regular PC group if a wizard starting casting scorching rays, submitting itself to, say, a monk's attacks of opportunities. For all the dragon knows, that is what's coming after it.
The adept is not hiding, he is trying to present others as a larger threat than himself, hopefully a large enough threat to either scare the dragon away or give him time to take out the dragon.

[JaronK]

PS @JaronK:  Please accept that your army tactics will not work... the dragon is able to find the adept easily. He cannot bluff, he cannot hide, he cannot disguise well enough for the dragon not to notice him. And at teh very latest  the moment the first web or scorching ray is out, the dragon will know. And that single attack will not equal the counterattack that the dragon does.

You did after all pick this scenario specifically to make the army useless, after all.  But he's not disguising, he's not bluffing.  He just has a bunch of other people.  Perhaps some are Monks.  Perhaps your Monk, in fact.  By claiming the army of PCs tactic doesn't work, you're saying a bunch of PCs can't defeat a dragon.

And yes, the dragon will notice it's being shot with a Scorching Ray that really hurts.  You say that means he'll definitely only attack the Adept.  Well, there's a bunch of other PCs too, all dominated.  Are you saying that single Scorching Ray makes the Adept more powerful than all other PC classes, and thus more of a threat?

For example, if his dominated minions are a Monk, a Rogue, a Warblade, and a Fighter, are you saying an Adept is clearly a bigger threat than all of them if he shoots a single ray?

JaronK

[Kajhera]

As a white dragon, I'd have to say yes, personally, the guy with the fire spells is priority to neutralize. The rest will be hampered more by my defenses at that level, and dealing with them can be delayed. Also, they may take longer to destroy.

[X-Codes]

As a white dragon, I'd have to say yes, personally, the guy with the fire spells is priority to neutralize. The rest will be hampered more by my defenses at that level, and dealing with them can be delayed. Also, they may take longer to destroy.

Given a dragon not vulnerable to fire, though, I'd say the Adept would be a nuisance at best.  The Warblade could probably match or exceed the damage output of those scorching rays, and the Fighter might also be able to.

[Solo]

For example, if his dominated minions are a Monk, a Rogue, a Warblade, and a Fighter, are you saying an Adept is clearly a bigger threat than all of them if he shoots a single ray?

Impossible; adepts are way underpowered compared to even the worst built monk, as Giacomo has proven.

[JaronK]

As a white dragon, I'd have to say yes, personally, the guy with the fire spells is priority to neutralize. The rest will be hampered more by my defenses at that level, and dealing with them can be delayed. Also, they may take longer to destroy.

And what if there's a Swordsage or Warmage among the group?  What if that Rogue is having fun with Alchemist's Fire?  What if that Fighter was archery focused?  

By saying the Adept is automatically the priority target, we're saying Adepts are far more of a threat than anything else there.  And that kind of defeats the purpose here...

JaronK

[Lycanthromancer]

As a white dragon, I'd have to say yes, personally, the guy with the fire spells is priority to neutralize. The rest will be hampered more by my defenses at that level, and dealing with them can be delayed. Also, they may take longer to destroy.

And what if there's a Swordsage or Warmage among the group?  What if that Rogue is having fun with Alchemist's Fire?  What if that Fighter was archery focused? 

By saying the Adept is automatically the priority target, we're saying Adepts are far more of a threat than anything else there.  And that kind of defeats the purpose here...

JaronK

Or maybe it gives us an insight as to where spellcasters (even NPCs) should be in his mind.

Obviously the adept is better than the monk and the fighter and the rogue if he's the #1 priority to take out over all of those classes.

He obviously means that the adept should be in Tier 3.

Obviously.