Author Topic: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin  (Read 217767 times)

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LordBlades

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #300 on: June 30, 2011, 04:06:34 AM »

Interpreting it the other way gives you just as much nonsense, though.  Mindless creatures can make DC 10 Knowledge checks and basically have perfect common sense.  Even if you're cool with that, there's still the "Untrained workers make 1 sp a day" bit.

It doesn't provide common sense, but rather common knowledge, which IMHO is implied in the fact that they can obey 'simple instructions'. You can't obey a command such as 'close the door' unless you know what a door is and what the actions of opening and closing imply.




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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #301 on: June 30, 2011, 05:06:35 AM »
And what is this constant deal with the salary of workers?  I can't figure out why you keep bringing it up.
In order to make something you have to use either a spell or the craft skill.  Skeletons obviously can't cast spells, and the limit of what they can do with the craft skill is earn 1 sp a day because they're untrained.

Interpreting it the other way gives you just as much nonsense, though.  Mindless creatures can make DC 10 Knowledge checks and basically have perfect common sense.  Even if you're cool with that, there's still the "Untrained workers make 1 sp a day" bit.

It doesn't provide common sense, but rather common knowledge, which IMHO is implied in the fact that they can obey 'simple instructions'. You can't obey a command such as 'close the door' unless you know what a door is and what the actions of opening and closing imply.
They don't close the door because they understand the concept of closing a door, but rather because you communicate the concept of what you want them to do.  A nasty side-effect of being mindless is that you don't understand language.

Hell if I know, the uses of undead labor is mainly to eliminate the need for unskilled labor. So any task that requires no judgement or decision ability is saved. Transportation costs are greatly reduced, overland shipping times go down, etc. You could program one to clean the streets, quarry stone, etc etc, but  when used to power manufactories, they're just the mechanism to reset a non-magical crafting trap.
This might actually be something.  If you make a one-shot trap with a manual reset, it's a lot cheaper than anything with an automatic reset.  While it might not be worthwhile with low-end traps, if you do it with something that casts Wall of Iron then you're saving significantly more money than it cost you to raise a 1 HD skeleton in the first place.

That said, such a trap is still expensive, and mindless undead are still incapable of producing the trap in the first place.  As such, I still don't believe this rises to the level of "industrial revolution."  Fact is, there are more than enough commoners to saturate your typical 3.5e economy doing this sort of thing, even if you need to get 3 of them to work in shifts instead of a single skeleton.  This sort of stunt belongs more in the "Reducing costs of items" guide than anything else.

LordBlades

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #302 on: June 30, 2011, 05:52:41 AM »
And what is this constant deal with the salary of workers?  I can't figure out why you keep bringing it up.
In order to make something you have to use either a spell or the craft skill.  Skeletons obviously can't cast spells, and the limit of what they can do with the craft skill is earn 1 sp a day because they're untrained.

I believe that statement merely refers to the wage of the average untrained helper and it has no bearing on the actual amount of stuff an untrained crafter can craft in a given amount of time (the detailed rules for that are a bit lower in the same section).

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #303 on: June 30, 2011, 06:15:02 AM »
Even if that's true, the best these skeletons could do is use Aid Another to boost the check of a Real craftsman, at which point they really just marginally accelerate someone else's work.  On their own, they can only create random, crappy items, and not even net a 1 sp a day profit.

LordBlades

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #304 on: June 30, 2011, 06:22:22 AM »
Even if that's true, the best these skeletons could do is use Aid Another to boost the check of a Real craftsman, at which point they really just marginally accelerate someone else's work.  On their own, they can only create random, crappy items, and not even net a 1 sp a day profit.

It's still debatable whether they can (or can't use the craft skill). If they can(which I believe they do given the clear distinction that appears in most texts between 'ability checks' and 'ability based skill checks'), by the rules they can create just as good items as any living craftsman

veekie

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #305 on: June 30, 2011, 10:16:54 AM »
Well, imagine a DIFFERENT revolution. The Industrial Revolution altered manufacturing, but these undead would be working in resource collection and transportation. If anything it'd increase the number of craftsmen, given that less unskilled labor is needed to support society.
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[spoiler]
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JaronK

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #306 on: June 30, 2011, 02:08:02 PM »
As to whether they can build stuff: note that Stronghold Builder's Guide specifically mentions zombie labor.  It says they're not as good, but they do get the job done.

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #307 on: June 30, 2011, 04:49:05 PM »
Quote from: Strongholdbuilder's guide
but they require constant supervision from expensive evil clerics.
Is it really the Zombies building things, or the hired Clerics using really large and organic tools?
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

JaronK

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #308 on: June 30, 2011, 05:21:44 PM »
It's the zombies.  The Clerics are just supervising (but evidently need to be there the whole time to keep an eye on things).  It says so right there in your quote.  Of course, if they have Awaken Undead I imagine the supervision issue is solved.

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Littha

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #309 on: June 30, 2011, 05:36:46 PM »
Clerics are just supervising (but evidently need to be there the whole time to keep an eye on things)

Anyone seen fantasia and is reminded of the broomsticks?

ImperatorK

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #310 on: June 30, 2011, 06:47:39 PM »
It's the zombies.  The Clerics are just supervising (but evidently need to be there the whole time to keep an eye on things).  It says so right there in your quote.  Of course, if they have Awaken Undead I imagine the supervision issue is solved.

JaronK
SorOs point was that you don't have to pay the zombies, but you have to pay the Clerics, and they're expensive, it says so right there in SorOs quote.
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[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

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Shiki

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #311 on: June 30, 2011, 07:29:45 PM »
Clerics are just supervising (but evidently need to be there the whole time to keep an eye on things)

Anyone seen fantasia and is reminded of the broomsticks?

Yes and yes, although that's more along the lines of Animate Objects. ;)
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #312 on: June 30, 2011, 07:30:16 PM »
It's the zombies.  The Clerics are just supervising (but evidently need to be there the whole time to keep an eye on things).  It says so right there in your quote.  Of course, if they have Awaken Undead I imagine the supervision issue is solved.

JaronK
SorOs point was that you don't have to pay the zombies, but you have to pay the Clerics, and they're expensive, it says so right there in SorOs quote.
See also: or the hired Clerics using really large and organic tools?
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

ninjarabbit

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #313 on: June 30, 2011, 08:43:24 PM »
It's the zombies.  The Clerics are just supervising (but evidently need to be there the whole time to keep an eye on things).  It says so right there in your quote.  Of course, if they have Awaken Undead I imagine the supervision issue is solved.

JaronK
SorOs point was that you don't have to pay the zombies, but you have to pay the Clerics, and they're expensive, it says so right there in SorOs quote.

Or maybe they're evil clerics trying to destroy society via economics by undercutting the competition

SorO_Lost

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #314 on: June 30, 2011, 09:23:11 PM »
It's the zombies.  The Clerics are just supervising (but evidently need to be there the whole time to keep an eye on things).  It says so right there in your quote.  Of course, if they have Awaken Undead I imagine the supervision issue is solved.

JaronK
SorOs point was that you don't have to pay the zombies, but you have to pay the Clerics, and they're expensive, it says so right there in SorOs quote.

Or maybe they're evil clerics trying to destroy society via economics by undercutting the competition
It would seem a Cleric that cast several Simulacrum spells (UMD a runestaff/scroll) has the cheapest option of them all.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Bauglir

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #315 on: June 30, 2011, 10:07:18 PM »
Can a skeleton be instructed to pull a lever under some set of circumstances?

Any responses? At all? Because if a skeleton can do this, it can supply mechanical power to a machine. End of story.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #316 on: June 30, 2011, 10:10:04 PM »
Just put them on a treadmill and order them to advance.

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veekie

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #317 on: June 30, 2011, 11:33:12 PM »
Just put them on a treadmillhamster ball and order them to advance.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Talore

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #318 on: July 01, 2011, 12:00:53 AM »
Just put them on a treadmillhamster ball and order them to advance.
Make a balance check.
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #319 on: July 01, 2011, 12:02:18 AM »
Can a skeleton be instructed to pull a lever under some set of circumstances?

Any responses? At all? Because if a skeleton can do this, it can supply mechanical power to a machine. End of story.
I'm not against order undead to walk in a hamster ball. However, I did post the correction to someone's misquote. Stronghold Builder's guide requires Clerics (arguably anyone capable of commanding them) to be present the entire time as a descriptive rule.

Likewise, intent of Craft is explained: "" so really Mindless creatures should never be able to make a Craft check.

What I will say is zombies are tools (supported by descriptive rules in stronghold) followed with the explanation like: Telling a Zombie to walk on a treadmill, walk back and forth carrying a bucket, or even hammering anything that passes under them is nothing more than per say an electrical motor doing the same repetitive task over and over again. The "machine" isn't making a craft check, you made it. When you made the machine its self. And just like an electrical motor, the machine has no concept of dimensions and is unable to judge if the log is debarked or not, or if the board is lined up prior to cutting, where to nail should the board not be lined up exactly to where it is assumed to be, etc. The thousands of possible fail points that would take an omnificer's Craft Check to correct. And that is where the supervisor comes in, either a computer in this day and age, or a Cleric yelling at his animations.

Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]