Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin

[weenog]

I'm still wondering how the monk is managing to charge 100' as a readied action.

Charge

Charging is a special full-round action

Does that monk have Cometary Collision or something that makes an exception for him, which I missed?

[snakeman830]

So, because I corrected your inaccuracies, I apparently need a clue.

Great job, Soro.  Great job.

Oh, and don't forget that, while the aura is shown, what is causing the aura (which spell exactly, in other words), is not.  A Necromancy aura?  Only clue that it's not False Life is that it's 4th-6th level.  What's to say it isn't Karmic Retribution instead?  For all the White knows without careful study, that's what's on any of the Dominated folks, which is both a strong deterrent (doesn't want to be stunned for atacking the thing) and an incentive (the spell is Personal range, so if they have it active, it means they're capable of decently high-level magic) to focus that target.

Net result with Arcane Sight: The Dragon knows they have magic stuff and spellcasters among them.  Now to go any further, it must test or study individuals, both of which take time.

Recall that Spellcraft requires the ability to "see or detect the effects of the spell" to identify it.  Knowing of the spell's presence (and school) are not enough.

[Lo77o]

Would advise against using a wand of it.... You loose a finger for every 1d4 damage you do. Unless you have a way to regrow or prevent it, you will quickly loose the use of your hands.

Your fingers reheal as the Corruption cost damage (1 point of str per 1d4 dealt) is healed I believe, the effect is independent of how you cast the spell.

That is what i am referring to. If say a rogue uses the wand without any means to heal the ability damage (other than sleeping), then he would quickly loose fingers as he burn charges off the wand.

[Halinn]

@Arcane Sight: it is too high level for the dragon to cast it himself, and if the dragon is allowed to spend wealth on equipment, there are quite a lot of options that would invalidate just about any on-CR group. Also, buying scrolls means that the dragon has less treasure to hoard

[The_Laughing_Man]

The dragon has no problems in casting from high level scrolls. The casting can fail of course. I calculated 30.25% chance of success for casting the needed scrolls for permanent arcane sight.

The dragon would greatly benefit from this expenditure so it would make sense to spend some treasure. Although I would agree 30.25% change is not good enough.

[JaronK]

Out of curiosity, would anyone else be pretty PO'd if they fought a dragon and the DM said "actually, you don't get as much treasure, because he spent some of it on permanancied scrolls"?

Seriously, let's not go completely overboard here.

JaronK

[Nachofan99]

Out of curiosity, would anyone else be pretty PO'd if they fought a dragon and the DM said "actually, you don't get as much treasure, because he spent some of it on permanancied scrolls"?

Seriously, let's not go completely overboard here.

JaronK

This is a red herring that is continuously brought up regarding NPCs using their treasure and, how I know not, also not following the WBL rules.

Somehow, many people just don't bother reading the most basic of rules and repeatedly spout the same garbage over and over again.

DMG. pg 51 talks explicitly about NPC creature being able to use their treasure in fights.  Also see DMG. pg 55 "NPCs with Treasure" where again it is explicit.

Next on WBL, if you somehow don't get enough treasure (sundered items, consumed potions/scrolls, shattered equipment - whatever) then *gasp* the rules say to make sure the party finds more treasure in the next encounter!  OH NOES, WE ARE *1 ENCOUNTER* BEHIND ON TREASURE!  DM SPLOITZ WTFBBQ!~!!112   DMG. pg 54.

This entire section says to make sure to give your players the correct amount of wealth and treasure and if you somehow do not - make sure you get there when you can.

EDIT: To directly answer JaronK, I would not be PO'd in the slightest at the DM for using RAW if I'm in a RAW environment, as we constantly appear to be in.  I also would not throw a temper tantrum if we found less treasure in a few particular encounters, so long as, by the end of the level we had found enough to balance our WBL, again, RAW.  The DM having NPCs with 100% consumble treasure such that you never get anything is not RAW.

[oslecamo]

Recall that Spellcraft requires the ability to "see or detect the effects of the spell" to identify it.  Knowing of the spell's presence (and school) are not enough.

Actually an excellent point for the dragon. From Spellcraft:


Considering that the effects of dominate are in plain view (bunch of dudes obeying the caster's orders), then you always get the spellcraft check. No action required,  and no chance of failure for the dragon's skill level. The dominated minions are automatically identified.

[X-Codes]

Recall that Spellcraft requires the ability to "see or detect the effects of the spell" to identify it.  Knowing of the spell's presence (and school) are not enough.

Actually an excellent point for the dragon. From Spellcraft:


Considering that the effects of dominate are in plain view (bunch of dudes obeying the caster's orders), then you always get the spellcraft check. No action required,  and no chance of failure for the dragon's skill level. The dominated minions are automatically identified.

Ok, I'm going to ask this, because I just don't know anymore.

What are you arguing?  To what ends are you making that argument?

[Sobolev]

Recall that Spellcraft requires the ability to "see or detect the effects of the spell" to identify it.  Knowing of the spell's presence (and school) are not enough.

Actually an excellent point for the dragon. From Spellcraft:


Considering that the effects of dominate are in plain view (bunch of dudes obeying the caster's orders), then you always get the spellcraft check. No action required,  and no chance of failure for the dragon's skill level. The dominated minions are automatically identified.

Or possibly that guy is just the boss, or possibly that guy is just smart, etc.

[oslecamo]

What are you arguing?  To what ends are you making that argument?

Jaronk claims that his adept somehow blends perfectly in the background while his minions and zombies automatically draw aggro from any monsters MMO style for unphatomable reasons (that dude has a book and a wooden staff! He's clearly a mighty archmage!). I just present the several ways on how the enemy can see the adept is clearly the target to take down as he's the one pulling the strings of all the group and is the key link to take down.

[Sir Giacomo]

[X-Codes]

What are you arguing?  To what ends are you making that argument?

Jaronk claims that his adept somehow blends perfectly in the background while his minions and zombies automatically draw aggro from any monsters MMO style for unphatomable reasons (that dude has a book and a wooden staff! He's clearly a mighty archmage!). I just present the several ways on how the enemy can see the adept is clearly the target to take down as he's the one pulling the strings of all the group and is the key link to take down.

Why does this matter?

[Bauglir]

Actually an excellent point for the dragon. From Spellcraft:


Considering that the effects of dominate are in plain view (bunch of dudes obeying the caster's orders), then you always get the spellcraft check. No action required,  and no chance of failure for the dragon's skill level. The dominated minions are automatically identified.

Or possibly that guy is just the boss, or possibly that guy is just smart, etc.

Well, no, that's what he'd probably assume on a failed check, but provided that the quote from Spellcraft's rules is accurate, it seems pretty clear that the dragon could do this. It's stupid, because it allows you to bypass the Sense Motive rules, and therefore probably is against RAI, but if you can see the people being dominated, you clearly see the effects of the spell (even if, because you can't make the Sense Motive check, you don't understand the implications of the effects; RAW, Spellcraft doesn't require that).

[Nachofan99]

I believe it matters because it *appears* that the dragon could pretty easily single out and kill a pokemon master type adept fairly quickly, and then retreat safely from the rest of his entourage.

Regardless of "blending in" or not, after the first Scorching Ray or *effective* Web, the Adept is definitely singling himself out as the target.  The question seems to be, that the dragon has a pretty decent chance of Listen checks giving the Adept *party* away - who cares about Spot?  Once the dragon knows something is coming the dragon should have a few rounds to execute a *simple* strategy like:

1) Climb/Fly/Swim to an ambush spot
2) Cast 1-2 Buffs
3) Briefly examine party to determine who to attack
4) Execute attack pattern Alpha

The adept definitely has a fine chance but I don't see it being an easy win - and I don't think anyone claimed that.  I'm seeing 30-60%ish claims of Adept victory?  That seems sort of reasonable, although, on the high side.  White dragons are not brilliant tactical masters HOWEVER their write-up says they ambush - then single out a target.  What target?  Adept probably.  Ambush, breathe - who has an active spell effect that prevents my breath weapon from hurting them? Spellcraft.  Oh that guy over there?  And everything else seems to be immune to my breath weapon?  And these other guys? Spellcraft. Dominated? Well, the guy with the magical defense against my breath weapon is the target.  Surprise round over, roll initiative, nerve skitter because I have acted - probably win initiative - go eat the Adept.  Seems reasonable to me.

The proposed monk actually has better flat-footed defenses and more stealth; the other adept with more stealth also is similar in that it will have an easier time avoiding the suprise round.  Take of that as you will; I am not proposing the Monk wins against a dragon either.

[Sobolev]

Actually an excellent point for the dragon. From Spellcraft:


Considering that the effects of dominate are in plain view (bunch of dudes obeying the caster's orders), then you always get the spellcraft check. No action required,  and no chance of failure for the dragon's skill level. The dominated minions are automatically identified.

Or possibly that guy is just the boss, or possibly that guy is just smart, etc.

Well, no, that's what he'd probably assume on a failed check, but provided that the quote from Spellcraft's rules is accurate, it seems pretty clear that the dragon could do this. It's stupid, because it allows you to bypass the Sense Motive rules, and therefore probably is against RAI, but if you can see the people being dominated, you clearly see the effects of the spell (even if, because you can't make the Sense Motive check, you don't understand the implications of the effects; RAW, Spellcraft doesn't require that).

I'm pretty skeptical that seeing a dominated person counts as seeing or detecting the spell in effect.  Without some physical manifestation, it should follow the same rules as trying to spellcraft a stilled, silent spell, which is to say, ridiculously hard if not impossible.

[Nachofan99]

I'm pretty skeptical that seeing a dominated person counts as seeing or detecting the spell in effect.  Without some physical manifestation, it should follow the same rules as trying to spellcraft a stilled, silent spell, which is to say, ridiculously hard if not impossible.

I can agree with you on this Sobolev.  RAW you can do this (Use Spellcraft to see Dominate). RAI it *seems* that "Sense Motive" is what *should* be used to determine if someone is under the effects of a Dominate spell/effect.  It's pretty obvious that was the intention Sense Motive (not Spellcraft) is directly written into the text of the spell.  Obviously, RAI varies widely.

Common sense is uncommon and not all gaming group use the same set of interpretations so we're always left wading in the murky waters of *strict* RAW and that's just the way it is.

I'm totally up for more "reasonable" interpretations and agreements but, of course, what's "reasonable" to one group is "heresy" to another.

[PhaedrusXY]

Effect = obviously magical effect, like a shimmering Wall of Force, explosive Fireball, etc. There is no effect visible for Charm/Dominate. Even if you want to go by "strict RAW", I don't think you can use Spellcraft to identify a Dominate spell that's in place, unless you use Detect Magic to first even discern that it is there. Effect is a game term, with a definition, not just a descriptive word.

[Bozwevial]

Actually an excellent point for the dragon. From Spellcraft:


Considering that the effects of dominate are in plain view (bunch of dudes obeying the caster's orders), then you always get the spellcraft check. No action required,  and no chance of failure for the dragon's skill level. The dominated minions are automatically identified.

Or possibly that guy is just the boss, or possibly that guy is just smart, etc.

Well, no, that's what he'd probably assume on a failed check, but provided that the quote from Spellcraft's rules is accurate, it seems pretty clear that the dragon could do this. It's stupid, because it allows you to bypass the Sense Motive rules, and therefore probably is against RAI, but if you can see the people being dominated, you clearly see the effects of the spell (even if, because you can't make the Sense Motive check, you don't understand the implications of the effects; RAW, Spellcraft doesn't require that).

I'm pretty skeptical that seeing a dominated person counts as seeing or detecting the spell in effect.  Without some physical manifestation, it should follow the same rules as trying to spellcraft a stilled, silent spell, which is to say, ridiculously hard if not impossible.

Yeah, I have to agree there. There's no obvious sign that the minions are being controlled; Necrotic Domination functions like Dominate Person, so the commands are telepathic. Now if you have Arcane Sight/Detect Magic up, it's a different matter entirely, but as I understand it, the chance of the dragon getting a Permanent Arcane Sight via scrolls is slim if it doesn't spend additional money to increase its caster level.

[ImperatorK]

I can agree with you on this Sobolev.  RAW you can do this (Use Spellcraft to see Dominate). RAI it *seems* that "Sense Motive" is what *should* be used to determine if someone is under the effects of a Dominate spell/effect.  It's pretty obvious that was the intention Sense Motive (not Spellcraft) is directly written into the text of the spell.  Obviously, RAI varies widely.

Magic obsoletes certain skills. That's nothing new or surprising. You have Spider Climb > Climbing, you have Fly/Levitate > Jump, you have Charm Person/Monster > Diplomacy, etc.

I'm pretty skeptical that seeing a dominated person counts as seeing or detecting the spell in effect.  Without some physical manifestation, it should follow the same rules as trying to spellcraft a stilled, silent spell, which is to say, ridiculously hard if not impossible.

You're talking about Detect Magic/Arcane Sight or Sense Motive?