Author Topic: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin  (Read 217749 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #100 on: June 17, 2011, 11:30:41 PM »
I'd allow it personally, with no basis in the rules, on the grounds of "It won't break the game, it's just an adept."

And now you've found the one really powerful class feature of the Commoner.  If your class says Commoner, you can get away with darn near anything!

JaronK

Midnight_v

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2660
  • Dulce et decorum est pro alea mori.
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #101 on: June 18, 2011, 12:43:55 AM »
I'd allow it personally, with no basis in the rules, on the grounds of "It won't break the game, it's just an adept."

And now you've found the one really powerful class feature of the Commoner.  If your class says Commoner, you can get away with darn near anything!

JaronK
LOL Hidden class features.
This is funny because a lot of the pro monk crowd really summed it up: Hidden Class feature: I don't have to be a monk, I gotz pc monay!  :p
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

Sir Giacomo

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 259
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #102 on: June 23, 2011, 04:06:56 PM »
The Snake Charmer

Human adept 12

25 point buy
str 9
dex 10
con 14
int 14
wis 19 (16 base + 3 from level ups)
cha 8

Maxed skills: craft (poison), handle animal, concentration, knowledge (nature), 5 ranks in survival, the rest in heal

Feats:
1-master of poisons, wild cohort
3-improved initative
6-reserve feat: either firey burst or touch of healing
9-improved familiar if a DM allows it, otherwise storm bolt or touch of healing
12-minor shapeshift
level 12 monk build I did elsewhere, although that build was made for comparison vs a pschic warrior, not an adept.

What do you say?

- Giacomo
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 04:15:40 PM by Sir Giacomo »

Sobolev

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 742
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #103 on: June 23, 2011, 04:19:37 PM »
Sha'ir Handbook
Binder Handbook


Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #104 on: June 23, 2011, 04:24:48 PM »
Uh...Giacomo...

Polymorph surpasses most 8th level spells...
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2355
  • I'll kill you before you're born.
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #105 on: June 23, 2011, 05:01:37 PM »
Uh...Giacomo...

Polymorph surpasses most 8th level spells...
Also, Animate Dead creates dozens of Fighter replacements.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Sir Giacomo

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 259
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #106 on: June 23, 2011, 05:34:48 PM »
Uh...Giacomo...

Polymorph surpasses most 8th level spells...
Also, Animate Dead creates dozens of Fighter replacements.

Also, animate dead costs 25 gp per smashed HD (whoever believes that skeletons and zombies -edit: including the bigger HD ones .edit end- last long in level 12 combat better should check out the CR 12 creatures... ;)).
And, well, polymorph...let us say that the adept's ability to use polymorph 1/day is outclassed by the monk's ability to use dimension door 1/day AND every 3 rounds at will an improved invisibility effect for 1 round.

- Giacomo
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 05:41:08 PM by Sir Giacomo »

Sinfire Titan

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5697
  • You've got one round to give a rat's ass.
    • Email
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #107 on: June 23, 2011, 05:54:26 PM »
Also, animate dead costs 25 gp per smashed HD (whoever believes that skeletons and zombies -edit: including the bigger HD ones .edit end- last long in level 12 combat better should check out the CR 12 creatures... ;)).
And, well, polymorph...let us say that the adept's ability to use polymorph 1/day is outclassed by the monk's ability to use dimension door 1/day AND every 3 rounds at will an improved invisibility effect for 1 round.

DDoor and Polymorph are completely different effects that cannot be compared to each other as equals. One is a form of movement (that in the Monk's case works 1/day) and the other is one of the 5 most complicated sets of rules ever printed. One is instantaneous, the other lasts for 10 minutes/CL.

And Invisible Fist isn't Improved Invisibility. It's normal Invisibility.


The fact that you consider DDoor 1/day and Invisibility 1/3 rounds equal to Polymorph is proof that you have no idea what you are talking about.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

ninjarabbit

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1442
    • Email
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #108 on: June 23, 2011, 05:59:34 PM »
Uh...Giacomo...

Polymorph surpasses most 8th level spells...
Also, Animate Dead creates dozens of Fighter replacements.

Also, animate dead costs 25 gp per smashed HD (whoever believes that skeletons and zombies -edit: including the bigger HD ones .edit end- last long in level 12 combat better should check out the CR 12 creatures... ;)).
And, well, polymorph...let us say that the adept's ability to use polymorph 1/day is outclassed by the monk's ability to use dimension door 1/day AND every 3 rounds at will an improved invisibility effect for 1 round.

- Giacomo

Animated undead are cheaper in the long run than partially charged wands and scrolls

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #109 on: June 23, 2011, 06:01:59 PM »
Uh...Giacomo...

Polymorph surpasses most 8th level spells...
Also, Animate Dead creates dozens of Fighter replacements.

Also, animate dead costs 25 gp per smashed HD (whoever believes that skeletons and zombies -edit: including the bigger HD ones .edit end- last long in level 12 combat better should check out the CR 12 creatures... ;)).
And, well, polymorph...let us say that the adept's ability to use polymorph 1/day is outclassed by the monk's ability to use dimension door 1/day AND every 3 rounds at will an improved invisibility effect for 1 round.

- Giacomo

Animated undead are cheaper in the long run than partially charged wands and scrolls
Especially since you can then proceed to buff the heck out of them with AoE buffs.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Sobolev

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 742
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #110 on: June 23, 2011, 06:08:27 PM »
Uh...Giacomo...

Polymorph surpasses most 8th level spells...
Also, Animate Dead creates dozens of Fighter replacements.

Also, animate dead costs 25 gp per smashed HD (whoever believes that skeletons and zombies -edit: including the bigger HD ones .edit end- last long in level 12 combat better should check out the CR 12 creatures... ;)).
And, well, polymorph...let us say that the adept's ability to use polymorph 1/day is outclassed by the monk's ability to use dimension door 1/day AND every 3 rounds at will an improved invisibility effect for 1 round.

- Giacomo

Animated undead are cheaper in the long run than partially charged wands and scrolls
Especially since you can then proceed to buff the heck out of them with AoE buffs.

Chain Spell Greater Magic Weapon to give them all +5 Weapons!
Sha'ir Handbook
Binder Handbook


Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

lans

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 886
    • Email
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #111 on: June 23, 2011, 06:46:44 PM »
Also, animate dead costs 25 gp per smashed HD (whoever believes that skeletons and zombies -edit: including the bigger HD ones .edit end- last long in level 12 combat better should check out the CR 12 creatures... ;)).
And, well, polymorph...let us say that the adept's ability to use polymorph 1/day is outclassed by the monk's ability to use dimension door 1/day AND every 3 rounds at will an improved invisibility effect for 1 round.

DDoor and Polymorph are completely different effects that cannot be compared to each other as equals. One is a form of movement (that in the Monk's case works 1/day) and the other is one of the 5 most complicated sets of rules ever printed. One is instantaneous, the other lasts for 10 minutes/CL.

And Invisible Fist isn't Improved Invisibility. It's normal Invisibility.

Its you are invisible for 1 round which is more in line with G.invisibility for 1/3 rounds
Skill prodigy from Kingdoms of Kalamar

ninjarabbit

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1442
    • Email
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #112 on: June 23, 2011, 08:45:47 PM »
An adept can easily increase his spells per day by buying pearls of power and a periapt of wisdom. Again cheaper than partially charged wands and scrolls.

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #113 on: June 23, 2011, 10:43:16 PM »
Also, animate dead costs 25 gp per smashed HD (whoever believes that skeletons and zombies -edit: including the bigger HD ones .edit end- last long in level 12 combat better should check out the CR 12 creatures... ;)).

I take it you've never played a necromancer then?  I have.  Let me explain.

When I used a Dread Necromancer most recently (at level 12, in fact) I had Corpse Crafter in addition to Undead Mastery, and always raised my undead in desecrated areas (there's a ring that provides this).  As such, my undead always had D12+6 HD.  A really solid undead would be a 10 Headed Pyrohydra zombie... 250 hitpoints, 10 attacks, reasonable enough AC (not amazing, but reasonable).  In fact, all my zombies had 250 hitpoints (all my skeletons had 125), except for Zombie and Skeleton Dragons, which don't have the usual hp cap (thanks, Draconomicon!).  And as undead they of course had a horde of immunities that really helped.  Additionally, I used Black Sand and had some on each of the undead, so they all effectively had Fast Healing 1d6, in addition to support from Necrosis Carnexes (MMV) which auto heal nearby undead.  And to be clear... the only difference between an Adept doing that and a Dread Necromancer is that the Adept's undead have 40 less HP (for Zombies) and 20 less HP (for Skeletons).

Now compare that to the Monks you've build and shown us in various threads.  How many hitpoints do they have?  How much do they self heal?  How many save or die effects are they immune to?  How many save or suck effects are they immune to?

It's funny that you think Monks can survive that level of play, and then turn around and claim undead can't.

JaronK

ninjarabbit

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1442
    • Email
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #114 on: June 23, 2011, 11:15:51 PM »
And to add one minor point to JanonK's post even if you can't get a ring of desecrate an Ebberon adept can add the Evil or Undeath domain spells to his spell list if he wanted to do it completely within his class abilities.

Talore

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 295
  • Viking Skald
    • Email
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #115 on: June 24, 2011, 12:09:57 AM »
inb4 pointless bitching about how the undead are 'extraneous to the class and don't show the power of the adept, they show the power of the undead'
Backseat moderator (voice) -_-

Sinfire Titan

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5697
  • You've got one round to give a rat's ass.
    • Email
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #116 on: June 24, 2011, 12:38:40 AM »
I think the only flaw with creating undead is controlling them. Do Adepts get Control/Command Undead?


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #117 on: June 24, 2011, 12:39:56 AM »
I think the only flaw with creating undead is controlling them. Do Adepts get Control/Command Undead?
You don't have to run faster than the undead once you create them.

You just have to run faster than the party dwarf.

This is why every party should contain at least one.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Sobolev

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 742
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #118 on: June 24, 2011, 01:09:27 AM »
I think the only flaw with creating undead is controlling them. Do Adepts get Control/Command Undead?

There's a feat that makes you invisible to undead.  They treat you as one of their own.
Sha'ir Handbook
Binder Handbook


Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

Talore

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 295
  • Viking Skald
    • Email
Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #119 on: June 24, 2011, 01:19:50 AM »
I think the only flaw with creating undead is controlling them. Do Adepts get Control/Command Undead?
You don't have to run faster than the undead once you create them.

You just have to run faster than the party dwarf.

This is why every party should contain at least one.
I almost never take Dwarf without boosting my speed somehow. Because outmaneuvering a human in light armour when I'm in plate armour is just awesome. Quick Trait + Boots of Sprining and Striding/Tiger Mask.
Backseat moderator (voice) -_-