Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin

[JaronK]

For once I'm going to agree with you. I know I posted a few blocks of text, but I assumed by now people would have at least skimmed them.

I was literally building the dragon to the best of my ability specifically to be able to counter PCs. Entangling Exhalation and Fly-By attack prevent any ground based opponent from doing much, Power Attack combined with a 21 BAB can account for a hell of a lot of damage, and Nerveskitter and Silent Image are really the only decent first level spells worth taking. Actually, JaronK, does your build have any flight? Because the Dragon could take Enlarge Breath or Shape Breath and get a 70 foot line that would outrange your ray.

No listed flight, but I imagined the misc animals might include a few fliers.  I just hadn't been sure what I'd be allowed so that was up in the air.  I was more counting on moving into positions where there was cover so it would have to get closer, and using Web to pull it out of the air (if it was near the cavern ceiling or something.

If I had money to spend on magic items for the dragon, both would lose easily. Ghost Touch natural attacks and Fire resistance. But, alas, that would be cheating.

Indeed, treasure on NPCs is generally supposed to be mostly random.  If this Dragon is running around with Candles of Invocation that would be a bit much.  Both characters would go down HARD if the dragon has decent magic item selection.  I'd recommend starting with a Hat of Disguise so we think it's a Red Dragon. 

And honestly, it sounds like this dragon was more optimized for the encounter than the Adept was, so I think the Adept's clearly putting up a good effort.

I hadn't noticed the dragon could beat the zombies in grappling.  I guess they just attack a lot then (bouncing a good bit off DR unless someone GMWs them, which the Adept isn't doing on his own without domains).  As for SR... I just have enough caster level to get through 2/3 of the time.  Like I said, this encounter was designed specifically to counter the Adept, not the other way around.  In a series of random fights, the Adept would do incredibly well.

JaronK

[veekie]

I have to say a properly equipped dragon, compared to one using the treasure as a nice comfy bed, is likely at least several CR higher than their already understated CR, and would kick the ass of any party that's not largely optimized T1-T2.

[JaronK]

I have to say a properly equipped dragon, compared to one using the treasure as a nice comfy bed, is likely at least several CR higher than their already understated CR, and would kick the ass of any party that's not largely optimized T1-T2.

Eh, likely going down fast and hard against a level 12 Factotum.  Darkstalker and Int to stealth skills on an Int and Dex class means he'll never see the guy coming, and being able to land Shivering Touch while ignoring SR and adding Int to the Dex damage means the dragon just falls over paralyzed before he knows what's happening.  In that situation, pre buffing won't help because the Factotum can completely surprise the dragon whenever he wants and thus control the fight.  Plus, he can use Cunning Surge to cast Spectral Hand + Shivering Touch in one round, thus allowing him to surprise attack from longer range (important with stealth).  Of course, this doesn't work on White Dragons, but it works on most of the rest of them.

But that's just because Factotums are nicely set up against Dragons. 

JaronK

[Shinzen]

I have to say a properly equipped dragon, compared to one using the treasure as a nice comfy bed, is likely at least several CR higher than their already understated CR, and would kick the ass of any party that's not largely optimized T1-T2.

Eh, likely going down fast and hard against a level 12 Factotum.  Darkstalker and Int to stealth skills on an Int and Dex class means he'll never see the guy coming, and being able to land Shivering Touch while ignoring SR and adding Int to the Dex damage means the dragon just falls over paralyzed before he knows what's happening.  In that situation, pre buffing won't help because the Factotum can completely surprise the dragon whenever he wants and thus control the fight.  Plus, he can use Cunning Surge to cast Spectral Hand + Shivering Touch in one round, thus allowing him to surprise attack from longer range (important with stealth).  Of course, this doesn't work on White Dragons, but it works on most of the rest of them.

But that's just because Factotums are nicely set up against Dragons. 

JaronK

It's funny, Silver Dragons were always my favorite even before I knew enough about Dragonslaying to know that Shivering Touch immunity alone makes them stronger than Golds.

Any Gold or Red Dragon with 7th level spells who doesn't have Energy Immunity: Cold on all the time however deserves what he gets.

[Sir Giacomo]

Will wonders never cease? I got a mobile internet connection...
Opportunity to help clarify some misperceptions.

People wondered (even though I think I already explained it several times) how my monk build can sneak up on the dragon.
Again: the monk can charge in the surprise round (partial charge) due to his high movement from outside the dragon's 60ft blindsense range. Beyond that range, the monk has either invisibility up or fairly good hide skill. His +33 spot skill makes him spotting even the hidden dragon quite likely.

And even in the case of JaronK's dragon designer cave (a good idea, without irony  ) the monk can buff before entering the cave (blink, invisibility, enlarge), enter it and due to combat reflexes can try to trip the dragon attacking him (spiked chain has 20ft reach) even when being flat-footed. Meanwhile, blink halves any breath weapon attack. In case of entangle breath attack, just dimension door out, try again (if it really hampers performance that much...after all in the now smaller cave even the monk's halved movement and some STR penalties would not matter that much.

Bye for now.

- Giacomo

[Bauglir]

I support no wealth. Not because it's the most representative of a Dragon's actual circumstances, but because I don't think you need it and because someone will always complain about it being the item's power rather than the Dragon's.

[JaronK]

And even in the case of JaronK's dragon designer cave (a good idea, without irony  )

I can't imagine why the dragon wouldn't do that.  I mean, it's his house.  He built it.  And White Dragons like that sort of thing... their caverns are supposed to be covered in slippery ice and designed for climbing around in.

the monk can buff before entering the cave (blink, invisibility, enlarge), enter it and due to combat reflexes can try to trip the dragon attacking him (spiked chain has 20ft reach) even when being flat-footed.

And how, precisely, does he know which cavern the dragon is in?  He can't see him, after all, and you've already established this is a stealthy dragon (which does fit for a White Dragon).  So I really don't see how he's buffing before entering the room, at least with buffs that cost money (as opposed to ones he can keep using over and over).

If you look at White Dragon tactics, they like to ambush enemies and hit them hard and fast.  So I'd expect the dragon to be alerted to the presence of intruders by traps (neither of us can bypass them well, unless the Adept managed to dominate a Rogue type, but we can't guarantee that).  As such, he'd be waiting in a random part of the cavern that he knows about and has designed for this purpose.  Probably hanging on the icy wall above the entrance to a room that's fully covered by blindsense, ready to pounce on whoever comes in and likely full attack it.  Since the Monk was relying on pre buffing, he's hosed... the Dragon will likely just use his Crush attack to instant pin him, ending the fight before it starts.  He'll never even know to buff.

In the case of the Adept, it's just a question of what minion walks in first... if it's a small one, the Dragon might wait to see what else comes in.  If it's a big one, he might attack it immediately (White Dragons like to kill the biggest threat first).  I imagine he's going to hit hard, but it's not obvious that the Adept is the primary threat, so there's a very good chance that he's not the one hit first and thus can open fire.  After all, his zombies can take a HUGE amount of damage before going down, so it's fine if they get hit in the surprise round.

JaronK

[Shinzen]

Will wonders never cease? I got a mobile internet connection...
Opportunity to help clarify some misperceptions.

People wondered (even though I think I already explained it several times) how my monk build can sneak up on the dragon.
Again: the monk can charge in the surprise round (partial charge) due to his high movement from outside the dragon's 60ft blindsense range. Beyond that range, the monk has either invisibility up or fairly good hide skill. His +33 spot skill makes him spotting even the hidden dragon quite likely.

And even in the case of JaronK's dragon designer cave (a good idea, without irony  ) the monk can buff before entering the cave (blink, invisibility, enlarge), enter it and due to combat reflexes can try to trip the dragon attacking him (spiked chain has 20ft reach) even when being flat-footed. Meanwhile, blink halves any breath weapon attack. In case of entangle breath attack, just dimension door out, try again (if it really hampers performance that much...after all in the now smaller cave even the monk's halved movement and some STR penalties would not matter that much.

Bye for now.

- Giacomo

A: You cannot trip a flying opponent.

B: You seem to be assuming you automatically know exactly where the dragon is before entering the cave and not vica versa. I didn't read X-ray specs or scrying on your sheet. As you don't have Detect Magic, and he likely has, y'know, a basic "don't get your throat cut in your sleep" ward up at the only entrance to his cave at the very least, I'm not seeing where you're getting any of this. You are still assuming a best-case-scenario for you against an opponent who, if he was this dumb, would not have made it to this age category.

C: You don't have hide in plain sight. Even assuming the basic dragon is chilling in a huge, well lit cave without any pillars, you have nothing to hide behind. More likely, he has made use of the terrain, staying within 60 feet of a corner, providing instant detection as soon as you poke your head out. Alternatively he could just be sleeping on the ceiling.

D: Ok, you Dimension Door out... giving the dragon plenty of time to move, heal, reset traps or leave.

Plus you get one "Get out of Jail Free" card, and then he just Entangles you again. His breath will have recharged by then.

[Solo]

Shinzen, why does your dragon not have Mage Armor?

[Bozwevial]

You can trip a flying opponent, so long as he has less than perfect maneuverability and is using wings to fly. 

[PhaedrusXY]

E: You should really read the rules before trying to abuse them.

Flat-Footed

You should read the rules before chastising people to read the rules.

Combat Reflexes [General]
Benefit

You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus.

With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.

[Shinzen]

E: You should really read the rules before trying to abuse them.

Flat-Footed

You should read the rules before chastising people to read the rules.

Combat Reflexes [General]
Benefit

You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus.

With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.

My bad.

Shinzen, why does your dragon not have Mage Armor?

In this case, there would be better choices. He could take it though. He has only used 1 first level spell.

You can trip a flying opponent, so long as he has less than perfect maneuverability and is using wings to fly. 

What if it's a Dragon with the Hover feat? Then it doesn't need forward movement.

[Bozwevial]

I don't think it's a function of forward movement. It's clarified in a Rules of the Game article somewhere, and probably the Rules Compendium.

[Shinzen]

I don't think it's a function of forward movement. It's clarified in a Rules of the Game article somewhere, and probably the Rules Compendium.

Yeah, I read the rules of the game argument, and it said that it causes the flying creature to "stall", which is what happens when you do not move forward with a fly speed < perfect maneuverability. I'm not sure how that interacts with the Hover feat.

[lans]

If the dragon has 2 feats availble Martial Study(burning blade) and Martial Stance(Flame's Blessing) would be good choices

[Mixster]

I don't think it's a function of forward movement. It's clarified in a Rules of the Game article somewhere, and probably the Rules Compendium.

Yeah, I read the rules of the game argument, and it said that it causes the flying creature to "stall", which is what happens when you do not move forward with a fly speed < perfect maneuverability. I'm not sure how that interacts with the Hover feat.

Stalling in flight is the technical term for falling in flight.

What monk build is Giacomo using again? The one with +3 touch attacks and only like +16 on his trip attempts against the dragon that has, what? +25 or something to it's trip attacks? If so, why are we even discussing trip as anything near viable?

If this is a fight of Monk vs. Mature adult White Dragon or Adept vs. Mature adult white Dragon. My money is on the dragon in both cases, if only for the fact that it has a ridiculous amount of HP, casts like a level 5 (7 with optimization) sorcerer and can generally use a variety of tactics.

Against the monk, it can pretty much just land on him, and then eat him. Against the adept, well it could cast Command Undead on the first Hydra to enter the room, and have it start eating stuff. Then continue by moving back a bit, as the adept scrambles to re-order his zombies to attack eachother before the hydra eats him (a hydra that is quite hard to kill, especially if filled with black sand), attack again under the guise of an invisibility spell and freeze the adept who seem to be shouting the commands.

My usual way of using white dragons is to have them have caves in glacier walls/caverns. This is a remarkably hard place to do battle, as the dragon can run and fly all over the place. While adventurers usually find it too slippery to do much.

Against regular CR 12 opponents, my money is probably on the adept, but dragons are pretty powerful if played right.

[snakeman830]

Mature Adult Whites only cast as a 3rd level Sorcerer, so they're stuck with 1st level spells.  No Command Undead or Invisibility for the dragon.

[Mixster]

Mature Adult Whites only cast as a 3rd level Sorcerer, so they're stuck with 1st level spells.  No Command Undead or Invisibility for the dragon.

Oh, yeah you are right. He needs loredrake for that.

Well. If both of them succeed or fail against the white dragon. I'm up for DM'ing a fight against a brass dragon. Adult, since it is CR 12. Which is IMO the strongest CR 12 Dragon in the core book.

[X-Codes]

As for the magic items issue, I say they should get standard wealth invested into usable equipment for a 12th-level NPC.  A Dragon's Hoard is predominantly coinage, but includes the odd suit of armor, sword, wand, spellbook, etc.  Anything of value can potentially be found in a Dragon's Hoard, and while a Dragon will never willingly part with their hoard, they'll still use anything found within that hoard to defend themselves from interlopers.  Afterall, foolish adventurers are bound to contribute greatly to the Hoard after being slain by the Dragon, and anything that's been displaced can be recollected by the Dragon's pet kobolds after the fight.

[SorO_Lost]

If the Adept is crap without those two spells, why aren't those the spells he's using to beat this Dragon?  I went with Web and Scorching Ray... Animate Dead was mostly giving me nasty stuff to distract the dragon with (and make it harder to just run in and snatch).

I mean yeah, they're really strong spells, but Web and Scorching Ray are really solid too.  And the Imp is quite potent, with his stealth and social skills and divination abilities.

Your saying Web + Scorching Ray because you think that does something, and as you pointed out you're dependent on Animate Dead to distract him and which in every post you remark as towards controlling a Hydra level of creature.

A. If you have at least 5 feet of web between you and an opponent, it provides cover. If you have at least 20 feet of web between you, it provides total cover.
B. The strands of a web spell are flammable. A magic flaming sword can slash them away as easily as a hand brushes away cobwebs. Any fire can set the webs alight and burn away 5 square feet in 1 round. All creatures within flaming webs take 2d4 points of fire damage from the flames.

You're 7 damage on your second turn and around 63ish the next puts you three turns in and it at 75% HP. Poking it with a stick is more effective than your plan outside of pokemon.

An adept can survive levels 1-7 with handle animal optimization, poison optimization, his decent selection of 1st and 2nd level spells, and his familiar.

Sorry, I haven't played pokemon since Gold/Silver. I do think you're point of Pet/Item abuse to prove your Adapt isn't proving anything other than how useful those things that everyone (including the dragon) can and probably should have.

The Dragon's maximum effective range is shorter than the Adept's range

How did the Adapt get over 200ft flight in speed?

Only difference is, the strafing dragon vs. Monk results in the dragon taking no damage and the melee vs. Adept taking some (possibly significant) damage.  Not to mention that the Adept can walk back and Web (since the dragon is almost assuredly in a place where he can be nabbed by it if he's in melee range).

See Web comments (helps to know the spell) and (again not talking of Gia's build) the Monk can charge after DDooring as a move action via Battle Jump, possible killing it outright right then and there. Barring Battle Jump abuse, the Necropoliton/Soul Drinker combo means being ate is a great thing since you can deal two (or four with snap kick) negative levels per round. Branching from items & races, the Monk sports Evasion or Blink and probably Total Concealment meaning Breath is the only thing that can really bother the Monk, coupled with superior damage (no 50% miss chance) in combat the so call Monk sports three alternatives to fight a dragon without cowering in the corner and relying on Handle Animal (which he can use, just as he can UMD Animate Dead). The Adapt has what again? Wasted actions by the current plan of action. But I blame player skill there.

We're not talking about a Wizard, or hell even a Sorcerer. The Adapt's spell list sucks and is fixed. He has 4th level spells not 6th. The Adapt's most offensive option really is pets and he doesn't really have Crowd Control either. Diplomacy is the greatest proxy ability in D&D, not Animate Dead or even Dominate Monster.

Why is the poor dragon forced to fight featless, spellless, equipmentless and skilless against the pimped up adept again?

Not me. I voted for a Steel Dragon Gish. You know, a JPM/AC mix.

I'm not sure why Giacomo thinks the Monk's just going to sneak up on the dragon.

Did he take Darkstalker?

Ok, so wait, I can invest in magic then?

Yes
But Dragon's to love their gold piles, Whites them selves have a fondness for Diamonds and coat their piles of coins with ice (per MMI), so they won't actually be wearing all of it. A single set of WBL and the rest for the lair is a very modest amount. Mindful, the White is Evil and may not have any qualms of creating his own undead legion, and said minions may still be wearing their scarred armor...

Any Gold or Red Dragon with 7th level spells who doesn't have Energy Immunity: Cold on all the time however deserves what he gets.

Mantle Of The Icy Soul (10,450gp to pay someone else to cast it, Frostburn) gives you the [Cold] subtype making you immune to Shivering Touch while ditching that weakness.

I support no wealth. Not because it's the most representative of a Dragon's actual circumstances, but because I don't think you need it and because someone will always complain about it being the item's power rather than the Dragon's.

To note, I'm only on board with the pokemon bashing as a counter to bitching about an ACF being too powerful and it's not the Monk (a big wtf there since it's the Monk's ACF).

Ok, I always pokemon bash. But hey, I didn't start up until then

A: You cannot trip a flying opponent.

A. You can, it stalls them in midair (see FAQ) which can in fact make them fall (which in turn sets up moar Battle Jump abuse). Srsly, I've had Battle Jump banned from most games after I use it (not the entire book its in, the feat, see also intelligent DM)

Anyway,