Author Topic: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin  (Read 217761 times)

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snakeman830

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #640 on: July 20, 2011, 12:46:02 AM »
The Dragon's maximum effective range is shorter than the Adept's range
How did the Adapt get over 200ft flight in speed?
How did the Dragon get any form of attack that had more range than the Adept's spells?  The Adept can't catch up with the dragon, but the dragon can't harm the adept without putting itself within the Adept's range (and the Adept deals much more damage in a firefight between the two).  Dragon's breath weapon has a 50 ft range, but a level 12 Adept has 55ft range on Short range spells.  If the dragon can attack, so can the Adept.

Quote
Only difference is, the strafing dragon vs. Monk results in the dragon taking no damage and the melee vs. Adept taking some (possibly significant) damage.  Not to mention that the Adept can walk back and Web (since the dragon is almost assuredly in a place where he can be nabbed by it if he's in melee range).
See Web comments (helps to know the spell) and (again not talking of Gia's build) the Monk can charge after DDooring as a move action via Battle Jump,
Dimension Door ends your turn (helps to know the spell) and Web still holds the dragon down long enough for the Adept to easily leave melee range and fire off a Scorching Ray (which, conviniently, is not an area attack and is not targetted at the web, so the web doesn't start burning.  Helps to know the spell).
« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 12:52:17 AM by snakeman830 »
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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #641 on: July 20, 2011, 02:32:51 AM »
Quote
Only difference is, the strafing dragon vs. Monk results in the dragon taking no damage and the melee vs. Adept taking some (possibly significant) damage.  Not to mention that the Adept can walk back and Web (since the dragon is almost assuredly in a place where he can be nabbed by it if he's in melee range).
See Web comments (helps to know the spell) and (again not talking of Gia's build) the Monk can charge after DDooring as a move action via Battle Jump,
Dimension Door ends your turn (helps to know the spell) and Web still holds the dragon down long enough for the Adept to easily leave melee range and fire off a Scorching Ray (which, conviniently, is not an area attack and is not targetted at the web, so the web doesn't start burning.  Helps to know the spell).
He's talking about the absurd reading of Battle Jump where you get a free, non-action Charge attack if you drop 10' into an enemy's space, regardless of whether it's your turn or not.  I'm sure there's some kind of TO pogo stick build around somewhere that goes into more detail about that reading of the feat.  A more sensible (and common) reading is that if your action is to drop down from above and attack, then your attack is treated as a charge.

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #642 on: July 20, 2011, 04:23:35 AM »
How did the Dragon get any form of attack that had more range than the Adept's spells?
I think you are way off what I meant.

All this bashing about the Monk having 1/day Door is overlooking the fact the Adapt doesn't have DDoor, or Heart of Water, or Freedom of Movement, or hell even Grease, or anything other than items he stocks up on to escape Grapple. And so if the dragon lands his Bite attack, Snatch kicks in (Jaron and Gia both were talking about it a page or two ago) and the dragon has a virtually unbeatable Grapple check. So what prime offense does the Adapt have? He shoots a ray attack from 85ft out and presumably moves away. Unless he has a Speed of 115ft+, the dragon fracking eats him. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. After chewing for a bit (auto hit bite attack) on the now grappled-thus-no-somatic-spells, the dragon spits the Adapt's corpse into one of those traps that you guys were going on about the Monk being killed by.

Web still holds the dragon down long enough for the Adept to easily leave melee range and fire off a Scorching Ray (which, conveniently, is not an area attack and is not targeted at the web, so the web doesn't start burning.  Helps to know the spell).
Helps to know the spell, helps to know the spell. If you followed my advice, you wouldn't have just embarrassed your self further.

A. DDoor doesn't end your turn and X-Codes already answered this for me. Even if you used X-Code's interpretation, Flashing Sun (or w/e)'s free attack can still be considered a charge if you do it right. Have you even clicked on The Hood link Endaire posts daily?
B. Web isn't super awesome. The dragon has a 12+Items vs DC 11 + the Adapt's WisMod (yeah, it probably needs a 2 to beat it), upon making the save the dragon can move 10ft though the Web with yet another 2 on it's check arguably freeing it. Should it fail, the lame AC bonus aside (your talking 6+dex vs 14+items and hitting 3 attacks per round), Web notes it's self as instantly burned away upon fire passing though it (like a burning ray of [Fire] damage) so your own spell frees it. Further, Web is only a 20x20 area and must be anchored by two opposing points and I'm not talking two points on the ground creates a 20ft tall area. Unless the dragon backs into a corner it can never really be hit by the Web while in flight. All these hindrances aside, the dragon may very well use Web on the Adapt while walking out of the first Web just to make the Adapt waste time (and unlike the dragon, won't be making a useful str check). In short, the sheer execution of a Standard Action for this spell is worse than anything other than pouring Salt & Pepper on you.
C. Scorching Ray doesn't have enough of a range to bring up silly points like the Adapt stays out of melee range while the Monk can't. They both remain in chew toy range. But, at least the Monk gets a 1/day get out of jail free card, which also can give him free attacks...
D. Also, spell checker. Because this post needs more puns.

Next time you want to come off with a whiny repeating return, at least follow the original advice. As I mentioned, the only real offense the Adapt has is his pokemon and if you read in between the glowing lines of pet hate and Diplomacy is better, I already mentioned shinies can be better (combat wise) than a Monk. ...Of course, tiers aren't really be based on what your pets can do, or how being super optimized such my generalist Monk at level 9 can take the dragon means a lot, even if picking the weakest dragon whose energy type is worthless against Undead is still fully capable of butt-raping the Adapt with pets. One fight isn't enough to reach any conclusion so you're doing great so far.
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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #643 on: July 20, 2011, 07:52:21 AM »
A. DDoor doesn't end your turn

Quote from: SRD
Dimension Door

Any other action would even mean free actions, in fact.

X-Codes

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #644 on: July 20, 2011, 08:21:56 AM »
How did the Dragon get any form of attack that had more range than the Adept's spells?
I think you are way off what I meant.

All this bashing about the Monk having 1/day Door is overlooking the fact the Adapt doesn't have DDoor, or Heart of Water, or Freedom of Movement, or hell even Grease, or anything other than items he stocks up on to escape Grapple. And so if the dragon lands his Bite attack, Snatch kicks in (Jaron and Gia both were talking about it a page or two ago) and the dragon has a virtually unbeatable Grapple check. So what prime offense does the Adapt have? He shoots a ray attack from 85ft out and presumably moves away. Unless he has a Speed of 115ft+, the dragon fracking eats him. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. After chewing for a bit (auto hit bite attack) on the now grappled-thus-no-somatic-spells, the dragon spits the Adapt's corpse into one of those traps that you guys were going on about the Monk being killed by.
I believe the presented Adept had ~2kgp left.

Anklet of Translocation.

Web still holds the dragon down long enough for the Adept to easily leave melee range and fire off a Scorching Ray (which, conveniently, is not an area attack and is not targeted at the web, so the web doesn't start burning.  Helps to know the spell).
Helps to know the spell, helps to know the spell. If you followed my advice, you wouldn't have just embarrassed your self further.

A. DDoor doesn't end your turn and X-Codes already answered this for me. Even if you used X-Code's interpretation, Flashing Sun (or w/e)'s free attack can still be considered a charge if you do it right. Have you even clicked on The Hood link Endaire posts daily?
B. Web isn't super awesome. The dragon has a 12+Items vs DC 11 + the Adapt's WisMod (yeah, it probably needs a 2 to beat it), upon making the save the dragon can move 10ft though the Web with yet another 2 on it's check arguably freeing it. Should it fail, the lame AC bonus aside (your talking 6+dex vs 14+items and hitting 3 attacks per round), Web notes it's self as instantly burned away upon fire passing though it (like a burning ray of [Fire] damage) so your own spell frees it. Further, Web is only a 20x20 area and must be anchored by two opposing points and I'm not talking two points on the ground creates a 20ft tall area. Unless the dragon backs into a corner it can never really be hit by the Web while in flight. All these hindrances aside, the dragon may very well use Web on the Adapt while walking out of the first Web just to make the Adapt waste time (and unlike the dragon, won't be making a useful str check). In short, the sheer execution of a Standard Action for this spell is worse than anything other than pouring Salt & Pepper on you.
C. Scorching Ray doesn't have enough of a range to bring up silly points like the Adapt stays out of melee range while the Monk can't. They both remain in chew toy range. But, at least the Monk gets a 1/day get out of jail free card, which also can give him free attacks...
D. Also, spell checker. Because this post needs more puns.

Next time you want to come off with a whiny repeating return, at least follow the original advice. As I mentioned, the only real offense the Adapt has is his pokemon and if you read in between the glowing lines of pet hate and Diplomacy is better, I already mentioned shinies can be better (combat wise) than a Monk. ...Of course, tiers aren't really be based on what your pets can do, or how being super optimized such my generalist Monk at level 9 can take the dragon means a lot, even if picking the weakest dragon whose energy type is worthless against Undead is still fully capable of butt-raping the Adapt with pets. One fight isn't enough to reach any conclusion so you're doing great so far.
You are really bad at this.  A and B are both 90% wrong (you even got my name wrong).  C is out of context, Scorching Ray doesn't invalidate the Dragon's ability to melee (and absolutely nobody is suggesting it does), but rather it invalidates his ranged options.  What's more, you're also wrong in thinking that anyone is really saying the Adept will win a 1v1 fight.  The Adept has potential to win, and since he has potential to win, he will definitely contribute to the concerted efforts of a group to kill this dragon.  The Monk, on the other hand, is pretty much just a melee-range beatstick, and it's not that great of one vs. the Dragon.  Even a properly-built Monk likely won't hit the Dragon more than once or twice a round, and is almost guaranteed to get eviscerated by the Dragon with a single full attack.

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #645 on: July 20, 2011, 08:29:33 AM »
How did the Dragon get any form of attack that had more range than the Adept's spells?
I think you are way off what I meant.

All this bashing about the Monk having 1/day Door is overlooking the fact the Adapt doesn't have DDoor, or Heart of Water, or Freedom of Movement, or hell even Grease, or anything other than items he stocks up on to escape Grapple. And so if the dragon lands his Bite attack, Snatch kicks in (Jaron and Gia both were talking about it a page or two ago) and the dragon has a virtually unbeatable Grapple check. So what prime offense does the Adapt have? He shoots a ray attack from 85ft out and presumably moves away. Unless he has a Speed of 115ft+, the dragon fracking eats him. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. After chewing for a bit (auto hit bite attack) on the now grappled-thus-no-somatic-spells, the dragon spits the Adapt's corpse into one of those traps that you guys were going on about the Monk being killed by.
I believe the presented Adept had ~2kgp left.

Anklet of Translocation.

The dragon's bite has 15 feet reach. Anklet of translocation teleports you 10 feet. You're not geting away from its teeths.

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #646 on: July 20, 2011, 08:36:17 AM »
The dragon's bite has 15 feet reach. Anklet of translocation teleports you 10 feet. You're not geting away from its teeths.
It is if you're teleporting behind a Zombie.

oslecamo

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #647 on: July 20, 2011, 08:46:26 AM »
You aren't. With snatch and flyby attack, the dragon can pick the adept up and lift him in the air before he can activate the anklet. So you teleport in mid-air whitout any zombie to hide behind.

Not to mention you can't teleport into the space of other creatures, and it seems awfully convenient to me you surrounded yourself with-medium sized zombies and then left empty spaces all around. Actualy the last build had huge-sized hydra zombies, aka you can't anklet behind them at all (they fill 15 feet sided boxes).

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #648 on: July 20, 2011, 09:19:41 AM »
You aren't. With snatch and flyby attack, the dragon can pick the adept up and lift him in the air before he can activate the anklet. So you teleport in mid-air whitout any zombie to hide behind.

Not to mention you can't teleport into the space of other creatures, and it seems awfully convenient to me you surrounded yourself with-medium sized zombies and then left empty spaces all around. Actualy the last build had huge-sized hydra zombies, aka you can't anklet behind them at all (they fill 15 feet sided boxes).


You could anklet 10 ft up and activate combat jump with your scorching ray. Then the dragon dies on average rolls.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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Sobolev

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #650 on: July 20, 2011, 12:52:40 PM »
All that we've realized in the last 10 pages is that Dragons played to their full potential are borderline un-killable by normal play in a sub Tier 3 party.
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Mixster

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #651 on: July 20, 2011, 02:53:57 PM »
1-You can't anklet 10 feet up because the huge dragon is just above you.

Erm. How can the dragon be 10 ft above you when you are snatched between his jaws? Does a huge creature have that big an upper lip?

Quote
2-Combat jump only works with charges. Firing a scorching ray isn't a valid charge attack.
Yeah, but then with reach you could hurt him hard with some weapon. The monk is better at this though.

Quote
3-Even if somehow the two points above were ignored out of pity for the Adept, he still provokes an Aoo for dropping 5 feet and is grappled again.
Dropping provokes AoOs? Where does it say that?

Quote
You aren't. With snatch and flyby attack, the dragon can pick the adept up and lift him in the air before he can activate the anklet. So you teleport in mid-air whitout any zombie to hide behind.
Some Zombies can fly, some skeletons have perfect flight. You could just order a skeletal genie to stay 10 ft above me at all times. And anklet up to ride him away.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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oslecamo

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #652 on: July 20, 2011, 03:17:39 PM »
1-You can't anklet 10 feet up because the huge dragon is just above you.

Erm. How can the dragon be 10 ft above you when you are snatched between his jaws? Does a huge creature have that big an upper lip?
It fills a 15 feet wide box. It has a long neck. It can fit the medium/small adept where it wants.

Quote
2-Combat jump only works with charges. Firing a scorching ray isn't a valid charge attack.
Yeah, but then with reach you could hurt him hard with some weapon. The monk is better at this though.
Oh for Bahamut's sake, you're saying the adept whitout melee buffs whatsoever stands a realistic chance of hiting the dragon's AC ?

Quote
3-Even if somehow the two points above were ignored out of pity for the Adept, he still provokes an Aoo for dropping 5 feet and is grappled again.
Dropping provokes AoOs? Where does it say that?
Teleporting whitin reach of your oponent gets you out of grapples? Where does it say that? ;)

Movement provokes Aoos unless otherwise specified. Nowhere it says it has to be voluntary movement. If you want to go uber RAW, then first find me the rule that says that the Adept teleporting whitin reach of the dragon's jaws gets him out of the grapple.

Quote
You aren't. With snatch and flyby attack, the dragon can pick the adept up and lift him in the air before he can activate the anklet. So you teleport in mid-air whitout any zombie to hide behind.
Some Zombies can fly, some skeletons have perfect flight. You could just order a skeletal genie to stay 10 ft above me at all times. And anklet up to ride him away.

It can't. The Adept's still under the dragon, so at best the mindless undead bumps against the dragon's back, unable to fulfill the condition.

Plus genie would definetely fit whitin specialized undeads that you're not very likely to find. Zombies have no hope of keeping up with the dragon's flight unless you were really lucky and got something with insane fly speed.

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #653 on: July 20, 2011, 03:18:37 PM »
Some Zombies can fly, some skeletons have perfect flight. You could just order a skeletal genie to stay 10 ft above me at all times. And anklet up to ride him away.

Note: this does not mean that pro-adept people are arguing that every adept necromancer has found and defeated a genie. This is merely an example of a concept.

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #654 on: July 20, 2011, 03:29:11 PM »
It can't. The Adept's still under the dragon, so at best the mindless undead bumps against the dragon's back, unable to fulfill the condition.
Oh for Christ's sake. Are you serious? So it doesn't know how to move around an obstacle to fulfill orders? I could understand if you said it would be too stupid to tumble/withdraw/etc to avoid attacks of opportunities, but this is just absurd. Yes, it is mindless, but it can still obey simple commands. Stay within 10 feet of me is certainly a simple command, and moving around an obvious obstacle would be well within its means of achieving that. It's not like it has to solve an algebra problem. How does that work if it is mindless? I don't know. It's magic.
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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #655 on: July 20, 2011, 03:31:30 PM »
All that we've realized in the last 10 pages is that Dragons played to their full potential are borderline un-killable by normal play in a sub Tier 3 party.
Well yeah, didn't a designer once mention that dragons were intentionally strong for their CR?
That was before optimization and straight out of SRD.
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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #656 on: July 20, 2011, 03:41:17 PM »
All that we've realized in the last 10 pages is that Dragons played to their full potential are borderline un-killable by normal play in a sub Tier 3 party.
Well yeah, didn't a designer once mention that dragons were intentionally strong for their CR?
That was before optimization and straight out of SRD.

Yes, and they justify it by giving triple treasure.  I guess I'm saying is that even I've lost interest in the turn this thread has taken, because the whole thing is mindnumbing.  How does teleporting out of someone's mouth make you not in their mouth anymore?  I DONT KNOW IT JUST SEEMS SO LOGICAL IT CANT WORK.  How would a zombie know how to go AROUND an object?  I DONT KNOW PERHAPS WITH MAGIC BECAUSE THE BOOK SAYS THEY FOLLOW SIMPLE COMMANDS. 

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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #657 on: July 20, 2011, 03:49:06 PM »
It can't. The Adept's still under the dragon, so at best the mindless undead bumps against the dragon's back, unable to fulfill the condition.
Oh for Christ's sake. Are you serious? So it doesn't know how to move around an obstacle to fulfill orders? I could understand if you said it would be too stupid to tumble/withdraw/etc to avoid attacks of opportunities, but this is just absurd. Yes, it is mindless, but it can still obey simple commands. Stay within 10 feet of me is certainly a simple command, and moving around an obvious obstacle would be well within its means of achieving that. It's not like it has to solve an algebra problem. How does that work if it is mindless? I don't know. It's magic.

Because the order was for the undead to remain 10 feet ABOVE the adept, not 10 feet near the adept. And the closest spot is still bumping against the dragon's back.

Also, it's simply unfair that the adept gets to use real-world logic instead of the rules when and only when it is convenient for him. If he can escape the grapple by teleporting, he'll also be causing aoos by being moved by gravity.

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #658 on: July 20, 2011, 03:50:26 PM »
Err...Oslecamo is arguing this stuff, not Giacomo.

I know it's easy to confuse them, but that doesn't mean we can get the wrong person banned. Even if they are the same person.
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Sobolev

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Re: Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin
« Reply #659 on: July 20, 2011, 03:59:50 PM »
It can't. The Adept's still under the dragon, so at best the mindless undead bumps against the dragon's back, unable to fulfill the condition.
Oh for Christ's sake. Are you serious? So it doesn't know how to move around an obstacle to fulfill orders? I could understand if you said it would be too stupid to tumble/withdraw/etc to avoid attacks of opportunities, but this is just absurd. Yes, it is mindless, but it can still obey simple commands. Stay within 10 feet of me is certainly a simple command, and moving around an obvious obstacle would be well within its means of achieving that. It's not like it has to solve an algebra problem. How does that work if it is mindless? I don't know. It's magic.

Because the order was for the undead to remain 10 feet ABOVE the adept, not 10 feet near the adept. And the closest spot is still bumping against the dragon's back.

Also, it's simply unfair that the adept gets to use real-world logic instead of the rules when and only when it is convenient for him. If he can escape the grapple by teleporting, he'll also be causing aoos by being moved by gravity.

I'm reasonably sure you already provoke AoO's by gravity.  I don't argue with that point.
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.