Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin

[The_Laughing_Man]

@Shiki, Lo77o: Ok, sanctified magic BoED p.83 kosher for adepts. Never paid attention that one before, thanks for pointing it out! Only limitation is to utterly devote to good. BoVD p.77 corrupt magic is for the evil ones. I suppose one must choose between sanctified and corrupt magic.

One require you to be non-evil, the other non-good. So any neutral char can cast both.

Sanctified magic requires to be non-evil and utterly devote to good. Corrupt magic does not seem to have a similar clause other than using evil powers is evil act in and of itself. I think one needs to choose between them. It is a bit contradictory to utterly devote to good by committing evil acts..

[Lycanthromancer]

<snip> Nevermind.

[Solo]

It is a bit contradictory to utterly devote to good by committing evil acts..

Some people go both ways.

[Lycanthromancer]

It is a bit contradictory to utterly devote to good by committing evil acts..

Some people go both ways.

Heil Tsukiko.

[Mixster]

Sometimes it helps to take a step back and look at what we do here:
The big question is whether the adept is really more powerful than the monk, as illustrated by and my monk build, both humans of 12th level; 25-pt-buy. (I listed the links to the builds again, because, strangely, for some reasons my build gets misquoted so often and confounded with a 7th level skill-focused monk build of mine that I think having the original links handy can only help the discussion ).

Firstly, the monk uses custom items that cast spells. 1st level spells at that. If this is allowed, I want a use activated sword of true-striking, and a use activated ring of divine insight.

It has been proven, multiple times. Why the dragon would fare badly against the adept without the lair. Attempting to snatch up the adept is close to impossible when he is in his army, also, the dragon would be using minutes to discern who is the threat through sense motive. The dragon probably don't have minutes unless it wants its' hoard stolen.

Well, I can use the White Dragon out of the box instead. However, the dragons that are described in MM are not complete builds. They do not have feats or spells selected for them. In which case I guess it will be allright to give them some? A mature adult white dragon should have 7 feats and 8 spells IIRC.

1a) Adept vs dragon
The adept very likely has no chance vs the dragon, even (and probably even because of!) his animal/zombie zoo.

Not backed up.

Exactly, the adept wont get the surprise round, the Dragon will use it's cave to deal with him. It will probably hide in a tunnel in the ceiling, due to it's permanent spiderclimb on icy floors. It's hoard will probably be frozen inside that same ceiling, like white dragons apparently prefer to.

Yes, the dragon now has 1.5 rounds to discern who is the threat. Something that by and large takes either 20 rounds for taking 20 on a spot check, or a minute for attempting a sense motive threat. It doesn't have the time for either, so it attacks randomly and have about 10% chance of hitting the adept.

Nope, but it does get the adept the ability to hide behind his zombies, or find some cover.

Even on a save the dragon is entangled by web:
And web works even better:
Each round devoted to moving allows the creature to make a new Strength check or Escape Artist check. The creature moves 5 feet for each full 5 points by which the check result exceeds 10.
The dragon will not be moving more than 5-10 ft in the web each round.
All rounds in which the adept and his friends can use to let loose an artillery barrage against the dragon. Also, Web offers no spell resistance.

Decent trick. I would probably just send in the Shadow and tell it to kill ANY dragon it finds inside instead of going in there with it. The dragon doesn't have much to deal with it except a few magic missiles, and if the polymorphed undead was a Hydra, it would have too many HP to kill with that. The adept could also have a Necropolitan under his control (who he could have commanded to become necropolitan when they had a cyst in their head). Who would be intelligent enough to search for the dragon.

The adept has, among his zombies multiple modes of movement. Getting them around might prove a small hurdle, but not that much. A clever dragon would use this in the fight though.

I think you misunderstand, the joker monk needs to spend those gold to keep being effective, he gets diminishing returns.
The adept, on the other hand, spends his money getting more and more zombies and followers. Increasing his power for every fight he does.

1b) Monk vs dragon

Even out of the box, the dragon can wreak that monk build. Even though it uses items that aren't allowed. Warning can't be put on an amulet, it is a weapon enhancement. You can't have items that can cast spells like that out of custom items. Custom items break the game in and on themselves.

He has stealth abilities. He could try an ambush somewhere outside the lair after observing the dragon for a while (the monk has ring of sustenance, he can take his time). Also, his knowledge-arcane skill may be useful. Also, his high spot and listen modifiers will help him not to be surprised by the dragon.

He can fly for a total of 25 rounds each day with his winged vest. How is going to ambush the dragon who flies faster than him at all? If the dragon met the monk outside, it could simply breathe frost at him and move to always be outside his range. If he decided to come closer, if he didn't activate his torc, the dragon could simply eat him. Or it could sunder his vest making him fall. The monk can only move 90ft in a charge while he is flying.

So he gets to make one attack at the dragon with his AoO, then activates blink. Then he loses his next swift action, so next round he can't activate his torc, meaning he can't trip the dragon. The dragon can just keep attacking him, hitting with one attack can mean the end for the monk, because the dragon could just grapple him.

Where are you getting enlarge again? Your custom item? Fine, you don't have that. Torc of the Titans is a swift action activation. You can't do that on an AoO. you are now at +13 against +20. Pretty hard to trip the dragon now, isn't it?

Well, You can't activate both the Torc and Heartseeker amulet. You don't have any source of enlarge. Fanged ring doesn't stack with INA. I'm at most getting your size to Huge here. That's not 24d6 of damage. The dragon has +17 Fort save, meaning he makes the save on a 4 or better. That is 15% chance per attack of failing. Giving the dragon around 75% chance of not being stunned. Assuming you don't fail on your own miss chance. Heartseeking amulet only works on one attack. So you only hit with one of your two attacks.

Note that things will definitely go wrong for the monk.

FTFY

Why not? He is hiding behind miss chances, he probably doesn't have a good AC.

It's not likely to work against the Adept either. Which has been pointed out multiple times

As soon as the dragon somehow does not manage to kill the monk before the monk gets to act twice (=four attacks for each 40ish-100ish damage, plus four DC 21-23 stuns), he has a problem. Note again how the adept needs 4 rounds (= scorching rays) to kill the dragon even in the most favourable of circumstances.

But it can quite easily kill the monk ridicolously fast. And why would it ever allow the monk to make full attacks against it?

Why wouldn't the dragon be flying? Sometimes it might be climbing on slippery ice slopes (read ceiling) instead. But you can't charge there anyway.

The adept has spells. And quite a bit of them.

[SorO_Lost]

Also, I think SorO_Lost hinted that there are way more powerful monks possible than my build (involving things like battle jump)  -maybe he would wish to post it here?

You know, it turns out it is over on the Expert vs Monk thread not this troll feeding Adapt vs Monk thread.

Finally got around to finalizing my earlier Monk build today.

[spoiler]

Writhe

Desecrated Crafted Necropoliton Fire Elf Monk 9 (undead)
HD: 9d12+36 (100 HP)
Initiative: +4 = +0 (dex) + 4 (nimble bones)
Speed: 70ft. (50ft. while Blinking) = 30 (base) + 30 (enhancement) + 10 (nimble bones)
AC: 15 (+3 wis, +2 natural) Touch: 13, Flat-Footed: 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+12
Attack: +16(+21) = +6 (bab) + 6 (str) + 1 (enhancement) + 1 (marital aptitude) + +2* (flanking) + 3* (martial aptitude) + 2 (hidden). *using distracting ember.
Charge Damage: +93 = +6 (str) + 3 (thf) * 2 (power lunge) + 12 (pa) + 1 (enhancement) * 3 (valorous + battle jump)
Attack Options:
   Unarmed Strike +14 melee (1d10+6, +1d6 cold, +1d6 good/evil), Full Attack +14/+9, Flurry of Blows +14/+14/+9.
   Butterfly Sword +16 melee (1d6+7, +1d6 good/evil), Full Attack +14/+9, Flurry of Blows +16/+16/+11.
   Waithstrike Fukimi-Bari +4/+4/+4 ranged touch (1 + black lotus poison), Full Attack +4/+4/+4/-1/-1/-1 ranged touch (1 + black lotus poison).
   Heedless Charge +21 melee (3d6+93, +1d6 good/evil)
Space/Reach: 5ft./5ft.
Special Attacks: Flurry of Blows, Holy Strike, Unarmed Strike.
Special Qualities: Fast Movement, Prayerful Meditation, Wall Walker, Purity of Body, Dark Moon Disciple(shadow blend), Invisible Fist, Undead Traits, Turn Resistance +6.
Saves: Fort +6, Refl +6, Will +9.
Abilities (pb 28):
   Str: 22 (+6) = 16 (base) + 2 (level) + 4 (enhancement)
   Dex: 10 (+0) =  8 (base) + 2 (racial)
   Con: -- (+0) =  8 (base) - 2 (racial)
   Int: 16 (+3) = 14 (base) + 2 (racial)
   Wis: 16 (+3) = 14 (base) + 2 (enhancement)
   Cha: 12 (+1) = 14 (base) - 2 (racial)
Feats: Skill Prodigy^F, Hidden Talent(psionic minor creation)^F, Battle Jump^1st, Power Attack^B, Improved Bull Rush^B, Martial Study(distracting ember)^3rd, Power Lunge^6th, Track^B, Shock Trooper^9th.
Skills (ranks only, 4+3*9=63): Balance 5, Diplomacy 5, Move Silently 12, Survival 7, Tumble 12, Use Magic Device* 12, Lucid Dreaming* 10.
Equipment (WBL 36,000gp, 28,651 spent): Fukimi-Bari x 50 (50gp), Wand-Waithstrike x20 (1,800gp), Marbles x 10 (1gp), Wand-Guidance of the Avatar x20 (1,800gp), +1 Valorous Desert Wind Butterfly Sword (18,300gp), Periapt of Wisdom +2 (2,000gp), Masterwork Tool x6 (300gp), Catspaws (6,200gp). Anything else needed and useful.
Languages: Common, Elven + 3 others.
Environment: Urban Areas.
Organization: Any
CR: 9
Treasure: See Equipment.
Alignment: Always lawful.
Advancement: By Class.
Level Adjustment: +0

Writhe is an assassin for hire. Typically he stalks his opponent learning his target's patterns and weaknesses before making his move. His signature is impaling the target's corpse on the ceiling after they have been killed. The method various from blunt force trauma & deep incisions to poisoning with needles. However, recently it became known that Writhe kills by ingested poison. An accurate kill count is unknown.

Tactics
Writhe's Shadow Blend ability grants him total concealment in areas without full sun light. The ability isn't invisiblity and doesn't require a hide check. Effects such as See Invisibility, True Seeing and Glitterdust cannot reveal the target as none of them negate concealment. However, effects such as Blindsight ignore this effect.

To complement that trait Writhe has the ability to cast Blink as an immediate action spell-like ability with a duration of 3 rounds. Writhe can use this once once per 3 rounds and thus by spending the immediate action every three rounds can remain in a perpetual Blinking state for stalking. While Blinking, Writhe has at least a 20% concealment against creatures with Blindsight-like effects, can fly with perfect maneuverability, and may walk though walls and such. However Writhe's speed drops to 3/4, his range of vision is 60ft and he suffers a 20% miss chance against other creatures. Normally Writhe will drop this prior to an assassination attempt.

Using his Shadow Blend & Blink Writhe can sneak into almost anywhere and by using of his Tracking abilities locate and dispatch targets as needed.

In direct combat. Writhe sticks to flanking his opponent only attacking when he has the upper hand. Frequently, if fighting in a building, using Blink or Wall Walker to fall from above he will use Battle Jump then use a free action to drop prone and though Blink continue to fall though the floor preventing retribution. If movement is prevented another well used tactic is using his Wand of Wraithstrike prior to spitting poisoned darts out of his mouth. And he is no stranger to fleeing from out right stronger opponents.

Benchmarks
[spoiler]Melee
Half-Orc Barbarbian 9
Str: 34 (+12) = 18 (base) + 2 (racial) + 2 (level) + 4 (enhancement) + 6 (greater rage)
Hit: 23 = 9 (bab) + 12 (str) + 2 (enhancement).
Damage: +112 = 12 (str) + 6 (thf) + 2 (enhancement) + 36 (pa + leap) * 2 (valorous)
Difference: -2 to attack (mindful Writhe's targets also lost Dex to AC) & -19 to damage.

Scouting
Dark Whispergnome Rogue 8
Speed: 40ft. = 30 (base) + 10 (dark)
Hide: +37 = 11 (ranks) + 4 (racial: gnome) + 8 (racial: dark) + 2 (unnamed: shadowweave) + 4 (size) + 6 (dex) + 2 (circumstantial)
Move: +32 = 11 (ranks) + 4 (racial: gnome) + 6 (racial: dark) + 2 (unnamed: shadowweave) + 6 (dex) + 2 (circumstantial)
Difference: Superior Speed, Hide uncompairable, -10 Move Silently, able to Track.
***[/spoiler]

***[/spoiler]
Hope you like it, and if not, I got some spare gold

The ranged touch triple attacking poison part not working like that was already mentioned, I am just to lazy to update the build


CR 12 White Dragon right?
Stats: 241HP, AC 28 (T9, FL28), +27/+22/+22/+22 melee (2d8+8, 2d6+4, 1d8+4), 7d6 [Cold] Breath Weapon and 1st level spells.

My Monk
Stats: 100hP, AC who the hell cares (AC sucks), +21 melee (3d6+93, +1d6 good/evil), immunity to [Cold], and has a 50% chance to ignore spells/breath/grapple and maintains full-concealment against the dragon.

...Said Monk is ECL 9, spent less than half it's WBL, no Distance/Throwing enhancement shenanigans, can UMD/Freddy up some death and could kill the dragon 100% of the time within a single charge if I forget exact details and end up adding either Snap Kick or the Life-Drinker enhancement (mindful, if it were lv12 it would in fact have both). Plus, if it were level 12 it would have DDoor, suppose I'll just settle for making some snide and condescending remark of like OMG I HAZ ANKLET ITEMS POOR MONK UZING ABILITIES < MY ITEMS. I HAZ PROVES MY WORTH! and hope someone takes it as the smack to the face they deserve. Srsly, I brought up this monk to showcase the differences in how optimization can massively affect things.

***

Btw, I missed the whole disguise thing. Is it too late badger the concept since someone threw up Detect Magic (which auto sees magical auras, something zombies lack)? Because zombie, zombie, zombie, human, zombie hey spot the odd ball or a more detailed: no skill zombie with 1 in charisma and a -2 (or more) penalty to disguising him self as a living breathing Human Adapt (1d20-7) vs the 21 HD monster noted as always putting ranks in Spot/Listen (1d20+24) is like making an Expert vs Monk thread, it's just begging for loads and loads of condescending mockery.

***

In other news. I go both ways too. Forward and backward.  

[Halinn]

@Halinn: the Centaurs aren't an issue because after the White Dragon fight the Adept got a Zombie Mature Adult White Dragon, which has enough speed to just run up and Crush any one enemy, allowing the others in the group to take that enemy out... then he can repeat.  Can't kite away from that flight speed.

Oh, yes. It's not a problem if you let the dragon do that. Your previously stated tactics were to let the dragon pin the sorcerer instead of having it go after the centaurs, though.

@SorO: The zombies are not the things being disguised. That would be the dominated humanoids. And with taking 20, someone probably having a few ranks in disguise, and range penalties, you end up with the dragon likely not seeing through any disguises. Not that disguises are needed. The adept wears whatever he normally would wear, and the probably lower level humanoids wear what they would. Perhaps toss a holy symbol on a dominated fighter, give a staff and a book to a commoner and such. All in all there is a fairly good chance that the dragon will consider someone who isn't the adept to be the primary threat.
If the dragon wants to use detect magic, that's three rounds of concentration spent with at most 60 ft range.

[oslecamo]

And with taking 20, someone probably having a few ranks in disguise, and range penalties, you end up with the dragon likely not seeing through any disguises. Not that disguises are needed. The adept wears whatever he normally would wear, and the probably lower level humanoids wear what they would. Perhaps toss a holy symbol on a dominated fighter, give a staff and a book to a commoner and such. All in all there is a fairly good chance that the dragon will consider someone who isn't the adept to be the primary threat.

Pure condescending that I would expect Giacomo to try to pull out. You cannot take 20 with disguise because the check is made in secret by the DM. You never know how good it is until is put to test by an oponent. Claiming giving books to someone will make other think they're wizards is pure idiocy because no self-respecting wizard will ever carry his books in the open.

This of course completely ignoring the fact that the dominated humanoids surely don't have in their nature to play dress up and serve as meat fodder for a necromancer, so they'll be geting new saves to break out all the time.

[X-Codes]

Blacks and Blues, though, with their long-range lines would probably kill both the Adept and the Monk with equal ease.

It's trivial for the white dragon to get a long range line breath weapon with a simple feat. It's actualy something expected of a dragon that still didn't get his spellcasting at full power. But of course the monster ecounters aren't allowed to use anything resembling decent tactics against the adept here. They aren't even allowed to use feats or skills.

...and you are using some sort of homebrew spell that compels me to place the palm of my hand upon my face.

[Bozwevial]

Firstly, the monk uses custom items that cast spells. 1st level spells at that. If this is allowed, I want a use activated sword of true-striking, and a use activated ring of divine insight.

Yeah, it's worth noting that the magic item pricing guidelines are exactly that: Guidelines. They can give a general idea of how much items should cost, but sometimes they fail spectacularly at it.

What logical reason is there to restrict the dragon to the core rulebooks when the monk is not similarly restrained? If additional options increase the dragon's overall power and the same holds true for the monk, then you're giving the monk an advantage in this fight (after all, the Monster Manual labels a creature's CR a subjective judgment and not an exact science), which rather defeats the purpose. Swapping feats, skills, and spells is a common practice, and what's available to the monk is available to the dragon, since the latter is run by the DM. As a side note, the sample dragons in the Draconomicon have Challenge Ratings consistent with their age categories but do have non-standard feats.

[Sir Giacomo]

Firstly, the monk uses custom items that cast spells. 1st level spells at that. If this is allowed, I want a use activated sword of true-striking, and a use activated ring of divine insight.

See: compare both classes without any items at all. Adept sucks massively.
When vilest acts are allowed to create armies of undead, I see no problems for a DM allowing custom items for 1st-3rd level spells.

It has been proven, multiple times. Why the dragon would fare badly against the adept without the lair. Attempting to snatch up the adept is close to impossible when he is in his army, also, the dragon would be using minutes to discern who is the threat through sense motive. The dragon probably don't have minutes unless it wants its' hoard stolen.

Proven? Funny. Since you did not provide any links, I cannot only try to make out what you mean from what you wrote. And what you wrote is that the army surrounding the adept will be able somehow to stop a dragon snatching up the adept. And sense motive is only taking a minute for information-gathering (like finding out the dominated people). But it is taking the same amount of time when the adept uses bluff to pass off as something different thatwhat he is.

Well, I can use the White Dragon out of the box instead. However, the dragons that are described in MM are not complete builds. They do not have feats or spells selected for them. In which case I guess it will be allright to give them some? A mature adult white dragon should have 7 feats and 8 spells IIRC.

Exactly, the adept wont get the surprise round, the Dragon will use it's cave to deal with him. It will probably hide in a tunnel in the ceiling, due to it's permanent spiderclimb on icy floors. It's hoard will probably be frozen inside that same ceiling, like white dragons apparently prefer to.

Yes, the dragon now has 1.5 rounds to discern who is the threat. Something that by and large takes either 20 rounds for taking 20 on a spot check, or a minute for attempting a sense motive threat. It doesn't have the time for either, so it attacks randomly and have about 10% chance of hitting the adept.

Nope, but it does get the adept the ability to hide behind his zombies, or find some cover.

Even on a save the dragon is entangled by web:
And web works even better:
Each round devoted to moving allows the creature to make a new Strength check or Escape Artist check. The creature moves 5 feet for each full 5 points by which the check result exceeds 10.
The dragon will not be moving more than 5-10 ft in the web each round.
All rounds in which the adept and his friends can use to let loose an artillery barrage against the dragon. Also, Web offers no spell resistance.

Decent trick. I would probably just send in the Shadow and tell it to kill ANY dragon it finds inside instead of going in there with it. The dragon doesn't have much to deal with it except a few magic missiles, and if the polymorphed undead was a Hydra, it would have too many HP to kill with that.

The adept could also have a Necropolitan under his control (who he could have commanded to become necropolitan when they had a cyst in their head). Who would be intelligent enough to search for the dragon.

The adept has, among his zombies multiple modes of movement. Getting them around might prove a small hurdle, but not that much. A clever dragon would use this in the fight though.

Yeah, the swimming speed of the zombie hydras is OK. But no use for the icy mountain high-up-lair-entrance. And the non-flying adept army without much brains will fail against the most simple of barriers (pits, walls, chasms etc).

I think you misunderstand, the joker monk needs to spend those gold to keep being effective, he gets diminishing returns.
The adept, on the other hand, spends his money getting more and more zombies and followers. Increasing his power for every fight he does.

Even out of the box, the dragon can wreak that monk build. Even though it uses items that aren't allowed. Warning can't be put on an amulet, it is a weapon enhancement. You can't have items that can cast spells like that out of custom items. Custom items break the game in and on themselves.

Yes, you can have items that cast spells out of custom items (see: DMG, core rules). Custom items break the game only when you use the most silly of modifications to them. And out of the box, the dragon does not have much against the monk, as I showed.

can fly for a total of 25 rounds each day with his winged vest. How is going to ambush the dragon who flies faster than him at all? If the dragon met the monk outside, it could simply breathe frost at him and move to always be outside his range. If he decided to come closer, if he didn't activate his torc, the dragon could simply eat him. Or it could sunder his vest making him fall. The monk can only move 90ft in a charge while he is flying.

So he gets to make one attack at the dragon with his AoO, then activates blink. Then he loses his next swift action, so next round he can't activate his torc, meaning he can't trip the dragon. The dragon can just keep attacking him, hitting with one attack can mean the end for the monk, because the dragon could just grapple him.

In case tripping is not an option, the monk can attack outright with quite massive damage. Blinking makes grapple a non-issue (and iirc his WIS mod of +3 means the monk can have blink up all the time).

Where are you getting enlarge again? Your custom item? Fine, you don't have that. Torc of the Titans is a swift action activation. You can't do that on an AoO. you are now at +13 against +20. Pretty hard to trip the dragon now, isn't it?

Drink a potion. Get that enlarge belt from the MiC. Really. Enlarge is not so special. It is a FIRST LEVEL spell.  But again: in case tripping is not an option due to the situation (say, the torc cannot be activated, the mighty throw maneuver cannot be used), then just attack with touch attacks for high damage.

Well, You can't activate both the Torc and Heartseeker amulet. You don't have any source of enlarge. Fanged ring doesn't stack with INA. I'm at most getting your size to Huge here. That's not 24d6 of damage. The dragon has +17 Fort save, meaning he makes the save on a 4 or better. That is 15% chance per attack of failing. Giving the dragon around 75% chance of not being stunned. Assuming you don't fail on your own miss chance. Heartseeking amulet only works on one attack. So you only hit with one of your two attacks.

It is alternative tactics. Either trip for better attack bonus, or use touch attack for hitting. Not both.
DC 23 is stunning fist attack when using decisive strike in a full-round attack.
The unarmed damage is increased to colossal with greater mighty wallop (12th level) and INA (from ring, there is no stacking with the feat since I did not choose it). Enlarge increases it to colossal+ size. Meaning 2d6 are now 12d6. Doubled by decisive strike ACF to 24d6.
And the attack bonus of +21 means that you hit with the touch attack, and 50%  of the times vs a mage armour dragon with the regularattack.

Why not? He is hiding behind miss chances, he probably doesn't have a good AC.

But the dragon has no way of knowing that. When he reduces his attack bonus too much vs an obviously magic-enhanced foe, he risks missing with a lot of his attacks. And even IF he gets to use power attack optimally, the monk likely survives due to his miss chances.

It's not likely to work against the Adept either. Which has been pointed out multiple times

Snatch attacks with flyby etc. work just fine vs the adept. So far I have seen no valid argument against this. Meanwhile, the monk escapes all grapples with his blink ability.

But it can quite easily kill the monk ridicolously fast. And why would it ever allow the monk to make full attacks against it?

Why wouldn't the dragon be flying? Sometimes it might be climbing on slippery ice slopes (read ceiling) instead. But you can't charge there anyway.

The adept has spells. And quite a bit of them.

[X-Codes]

See: compare both classes without any items at all. Adept sucks massively.
When vilest acts are allowed to create armies of undead, I see no problems for a DM allowing custom items for 1st-3rd level spells.

Challenge Accepted.

Don't worry, I'm not going to put up some lame meme poster.

Seriously, though.  Let's compare an ungeared Adept to an ungeared Monk.  PLEASE!

[Lo77o]

Ok, it seems like our good Sir Giacomo his some issues with a player character running around with a small army, especially one comprised primarily of undead. Now i don't fully agree with him, but for completeness sake i will include a "sneaky" Adept that would work in a party.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amrabhep the Emir of Night, Azurin Adept 12
25 Point Buy
Medium Humanoid (Human, Incarnum)
Hit Dice: 12d6+24 (69 hp)
Initiative:+4
Speed: 30 ft.
Armor Class:17, touch 17, flat-footed 15 (+5 Deflection, +2 Dex)
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+6
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Spells
Special Qualities: Spells
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +12
Abilities: Str 10 (+1 from level up), Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 18 (+2 from level up, +2 from necklace), Cha 8
Skills: Concentration +17, Hide +23, Knowledge Arcana +17, Knowledge Religion +17
Feats: Initiate of Shar, Darkstalker, Shape Soulmeld (Strongheart Vest), Bonus Essentia, Night Haunt, Arcane Mastery
Treasure: Periapt of Wisdom +2 (4.000 gp), Cloak of Elven Kind (2.500 gp), Belt of Battle (12.000 gp), Boots of Swift Passage (5.000 gp), Ring of the Darkhidden (2.000 gp), Ring of Vanishing (30.000 gp), Scouts Headband (3.400 gp), Pearl of Power (Second Level Spells) x 7 (28.000 gp), Mundane Equipment (1.100 gp)
Alignment: Lawful Evil

SpellsSpell-Like AbilitiesAssumptions: Amrabhep is a part of a group, and the group knows where the White Dragon's lair is. But Amrabhep is evil and wants all the treasure for him self, so he will go to the lair him self at night.

Tactics

[SorO_Lost]

That would be the dominated humanoids. And with taking 20.
If the dragon wants to use detect magic, that's three rounds of concentration spent with at most 60 ft range.

A. No Dominate on the Adapt's spell list, using Mother Cyst? Blah Monk uses Diplomacy this proxy talk is getting old. I'm best friends with Pelor, look at how great I, not them, me, memememememe, and ONLY me, am! Whoop whoop!
B. Can't do that.
C. Arcane Sight, my bad. Auto sees magical auras without any action spent. Spellcasters them selves produce a magical aura where as nonspellcasters don't. So what, going to claim you dominated Bards and Wizards? Pics or it didn't happen.

If I spent half as much effort claiming to have an army I'm way to lazy to look up and detail as you people, my 1/4 HD Chicken build would be kicking dragon ass.

***

Lahms Finger Darts? I forgot and therefor had to google thus, after getting several dozen hits for posts about how over powered it is, are it dawned on me you can put it in Wand form and UMD it. Guess who has a new thing to remember jpg file ^_^

Serious. I can respect it. It isn't by proxy, it doesn't forget half the rules in D&D, it doesn't assume the White Dragon is a moron, and given my low level Monk relies on Battle Jump, relying on Finger Darts isn't something I could argue against. Best Adapt build so far.

[Lo77o]

That would be the dominated humanoids. And with taking 20.
If the dragon wants to use detect magic, that's three rounds of concentration spent with at most 60 ft range.

A. No Dominate on the Adapt's spell list, using Mother Cyst? Blah Monk uses Diplomacy this proxy talk is getting old. I'm best friends with Pelor, look at how great I, not them, me, memememememe, and ONLY me, am! Whoop whoop!
B. Can't do that.
C. Arcane Sight, my bad. Auto sees magical auras without any action spent. Spellcasters them selves produce a magical aura where as nonspellcasters don't. So what, going to claim you dominated Bards and Wizards? Pics or it didn't happen.

If I spent half as much effort claiming to have an army I'm way to lazy to look up and detail as you people, my 1/4 HD Chicken build would be kicking dragon ass.

***

Lahms Finger Darts? I forgot and therefor had to google thus, after getting several dozen hits for posts about how over powered it is, are it dawned on me you can put it in Wand form and UMD it. Guess who has a new thing to remember jpg file ^_^

Serious. I can respect it. It isn't by proxy, it doesn't forget half the rules in D&D, it doesn't assume the White Dragon is a moron, and given my low level Monk relies on Battle Jump, relying on Finger Darts isn't something I could argue against. Best Adapt build so far.

Would advise against using a wand of it.... You loose a finger for every 1d4 damage you do. Unless you have a way to regrow or prevent it, you will quickly loose the use of your hands.

[ImperatorK]

C. Arcane Sight, my bad. Auto sees magical auras without any action spent. Spellcasters them selves produce a magical aura where as nonspellcasters don't. So what, going to claim you dominated Bards and Wizards? Pics or it didn't happen.

Seriously? That's a new one. Quotes and pages, please?

[snakeman830]

C. Arcane Sight, my bad. Auto sees magical auras without any action spent. Spellcasters them selves produce a magical aura where as nonspellcasters don't. So what, going to claim you dominated Bards and Wizards? Pics or it didn't happen.

Seriously? That's a new one. Quotes and pages, please?

Agreed.  I have never heard of this either.  Sure, it usually will pick them up because they have some sort of buff/magic item on them, but I've never heard of it picking them up by default.

Quotes or admit that you're making stuff up again.

EDIT: Arcane Sight DOES allow one to determine some things about a creature; if they have spells/spell-likes, wether those spells are arcane or divine (spell-likes always show up as arcane here), and the highest level one has currently available to use.  Of course, this does require a standard action, so once again, Soro is making stuff up.

[Bauglir]

I don't know if this was addressed, but I'm pretty sure you need better than Polymorph to make something incorporeal, so I don't think you can actually do the transform a hydra into a shadow thing. This actually hurts the adept, but whatever, we want to be fair about this right? I am still pretty sure the monk is gonna end up getting curbstomped, especially if you want to try naked builds.

[SorO_Lost]

C. Arcane Sight, my bad. Auto sees magical auras without any action spent. Spellcasters them selves produce a magical aura where as nonspellcasters don't. So what, going to claim you dominated Bards and Wizards? Pics or it didn't happen.

Seriously? That's a new one. Quotes and pages, please?

Ever read the SRD?

C. Arcane Sight, my bad. Auto sees magical auras without any action spent. Spellcasters them selves produce a magical aura where as nonspellcasters don't. So what, going to claim you dominated Bards and Wizards? Pics or it didn't happen.

Seriously? That's a new one. Quotes and pages, please?

Agreed.  I have never heard of this either.  Sure, it usually will pick them up because they have some sort of buff/magic item on them, but I've never heard of it picking them up by default.

Quotes or admit that you're making stuff up again.

EDIT: Arcane Sight DOES allow one to determine some things about a creature; if they have spells/spell-likes, wether those spells are arcane or divine (spell-likes always show up as arcane here), and the highest level one has currently available to use.  Of course, this does require a standard action, so once again, Soro is making stuff up.

Guess not, but at least you googled after you posted. Also it's a standard action to cast and can be made permanent for 7,950gp (and most of that is xp to gp costs).

This spell makes your eyes glow blue and allows you to see magical auras within 120 feet of you. The effect is similar to that of a detect magic spell, but arcane sight does not require concentration and discerns aura location and power more quickly.

If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Spellcraft skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura; DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + one-half caster level for a nonspell effect.)

The spell you both never read (you should play D&D some time) already validated everything I meant by the fact all builds in this thread are carrying a magical item. And apparently, thanks to Spellcraft, the dragon can even readily ID which creatures are under the effects of an enchantment spell (such as domination-effects), Necromancy (such as the nectoic spell in question) or Transmutation (like Polymorph) which makes things even better on my end.

Now, as for spellcasters have a magical aura. Well that one I got mixed up on, guess it's a Standard Action to ID spellcasting, but it's a Free Action to ID the type of magic, I recalled it backwards. Most stuff I post by memory, bitch about it it's inaccuracies all you want, because in the long run it doesn't matter if I look it up or not. Take this for example, despite being SRD material and listed under Permanency, two people snapped off rude comments about their ignorance and one of them, even after taking the time to google it after they posted, still needs to get hit with a cluebat. Why waste the time if I'm going to have to reexplain things again and again to children?

[SorO_Lost]

Would advise against using a wand of it.... You loose a finger for every 1d4 damage you do. Unless you have a way to regrow or prevent it, you will quickly loose the use of your hands.

Your fingers reheal as the Corruption cost damage (1 point of str per 1d4 dealt) is healed I believe, the effect is independent of how you cast the spell.