If that does not explain it well enough for you, then I must not understand the way you are thinking about it well enough. Could you please explain your thought process of how you came to this conclusion about Initiative and Dexterity checks, because all I can see in what you've wrote is an argument missing a step somewhere.
Yeah, the second post was as close as I can get to a meh while still using more than one word.
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The idea is something I stumbled upon no where near initiative. In fact comes from the Defending enchantment and a recent thread of a high AC/Saves core-only duelist where I wondered where I could scrape more bonuses to AC.
[spoiler]
The defending enhancement directly adds a bonus to your armor class, it isn't a subsidiarity addon enhancement to armor, enhancement to shield, enhancement to natural armor. It's just an unnamed bonus directly granting a bonus to AC. In the same token, why could you not add an enhancement bonus to AC it's self and it stack? There is already three cases doing so and allowed to do so by operating at different levels. Somewhere along the line it got me to think of initiative.
Initiative Checks are Dexterity Checks (rules directly state so). Improved Initiative, and many others, offer direct bonuses to the initiative score and not it's subsidiarities, which according to Garryl and Mr Under-21 is the Dexterity Check. blah blah blah I can't give a good rebuttal so I say one is AC the other is Initiative it's a fallacy to compare bullshit aside. Defending is the same as Improved Initiative. Both grant an unnamed bonus to what represents a combined total. But what if those bonuses were named?
In the case of AC and the presented example of enhancement backed by rules, presentations, examples, etc. Applying to different entities allows stacking. This is an established fact and does not change on your whims or opinions. For the example of initiative I picked luck since it was the first named bonus I could think of that could overlap. Now if initiative can be proven to be a separate entity from a dexterity check then the bonuses must stack.
But is it a separate entity?Well it initiative truly is a dexterity check then therefor all initiative bonuses apply to dexterity checks for they are one and the same. On the same token, your trip check is a strength/dexterity check and those bonuses can intermingle. Obviously this seems wrong and goes against intent. Therefor Initiative is a separate entity, though I am all for people saying it is the same due to the other mentioned repercussions.
Now the last step, outside the box.
The box in this case is if initiative is the same as a dexterity check in all regards or a separate thing. Outside the box would be something else.
Initiative is a dexterity check and it is it's own separate thing. As such all dexterity boosts are applied on the same level as initiative boosts. And as it's own thing it's boosts cannot be applied inveterately.Is a prime example of a 3rd option. It is also the one you are all readily jumping on as well. Problem is, it is a
conclusion. Based on
opinion with no
method supporting it.
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As some of you know from seeing me argue. I tend to talk about methods, in order to validate your conclusion you must present a method of obtaining it, and that method of obtaining it bears your entire point and how valid it is. This is both my bias and my antibias. For instance, since I get accused of kobold insertion I know a good example, if you were to claim kobolds are true dragons because their ancestors were TD the correct return is not to jabber on about how yellow makes you sad. But to ID the method and argue against it. In said case the method is biological linage as proof, a point against would be Half-Dragon since a much more direct heritage and being a HD doesn't make you a TD. Now say you moved to a different thing, such as white dragons are not longer than 100ft therefor MM/Draco is wrong ignore it. I've coined that method specific replaces general and link the DMG or RCs rules that explicitly handle invalidating that. Arguments will then touch on other areas then degenerate into a fallacy. kobold is TD cus fluff says so, fluff says so cus specific says so, specific says so cus fluff says so for example. What you have there is a method called opinion and nothing else. your opinion on what to read and ignore is the only way you've reached the conclusion you already choose.
snakeman830 & Garryl present no validation for their conclusion. They present no method, no points. Just a conclusion based on how they think it should be. This lack of a method, a reason, a validation, of the conclusion will lead to you to saying contradictions. Example:
The enhancement bonuses are effectively being laundered into armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses. ... However, adding multiple luck bonuses to initiative and to Dex won't make them stack, because it's still a luck bonus being applied to the final check.. He says you can apply it to different things within the final check and it works then moment later disagrees with him self. His personal bias that his conclusion must be right without any substance to prove it creates mistakes like that.
[/tanget]
I could not come up with a method to validate the 3rd option. Oh I thought it worked like the 3rd option and I'm currently poking your brains to present one to me. But at this time, it's still not there. Garryl improved and tried to come up with something to validate his side using skill checks. I commend his advancement in such a short time and not turning things into bonfire.
*end spoiler*, not like you're reading it anyway.
[/spoiler]
how in D&D a Diplomacy check (or whatever skill you prefer) is a skill check, but a skill check is not a Diplomacy check.AKA: how in D&D an initiative check (or whatever skill you prefer) is a dexterity check, but a dexterity check is not an initiative check.
Where is the validation? Not only do I see none but I now have a new question.
Skill Checks are not ability checks though they use the ability score bonus. However, Hide check is a skill check and would benefit from a pale green ioun stone which grants all skills a +1 competence bonus. How would granting Hide it's self a competence bonus work out?
Same bonus, applied in different areas, same exact case as initiative. Again, tripping, initiative, and now skill checks come to mind on how to handle this. The only rules on this subject I know of and mentioned so far are stacking rules and presented interaction of enhancements to armor class. Saying initiative checks are not dexterity checks agrees with my 1st post on this debate. Saying initiative bonuses do not apply to dexterity checks certain agrees with rule's intent. But you need more than your opinion to say the bonuses applied on different teirs do not apply with armor class is say it does work. I think Mr something-about-never-drinking for bringing up Thicken Skin too, it is a direct bonus to that end total (rather than though another value) in the same regard as Improved Initiative and helps reinforce the concept.