Author Topic: Fun Finds!  (Read 163384 times)

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Epimetheus

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Re: Fun Finds!
« Reply #200 on: January 12, 2011, 04:17:36 AM »
The question becomes if you get the +2 LA for being celestial/fiendish/axiomatic/anarchic if you cast this on yourself. You probably would, which makes this only nice for perma-boosting familiars/companions. This is probably best to protect the familiar of those who take Obtain Familiar and have high UMD.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Fun Finds!
« Reply #201 on: January 12, 2011, 05:45:01 AM »
I was thinking followers/thralls, or as an end-of-campaign powerup.
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Brainpiercing

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Re: Fun Finds!
« Reply #202 on: January 12, 2011, 10:57:09 AM »

Flavorwise or mechanically? Flavorwise, you're sending your mini-genie off to the elemental planes to grab you a packet of magical energy that he charges you up with so you can cast the spell. If that doesn't work for you, well, not much to be done about that I suppose.

Mechanically, you tell your genie what spell you want (any sorc/wiz spell you know or have seen and made a successful Spellcraft check to identify), he disappears for a few rounds or a few minutes respectively, and if you pass an easy Diplomacy check he comes back with a spell. That spell is now considered retrieved, which is like being prepared except slightly different and not technically the same. A retrieved spell can be cast once, at which point it is no longer retrieved. If you don't cast it within an hour per class level it dissipates.

What's important is that the sha'ir has a limit on spells cast per day, not spells retrieved per day, which leads to a lot of confusion and misled naysaying. When the spell dissipates, you can just send your genie for it again if you still want it, or retrieve a different one (and if wizards were offered the option to trade out their spells prepared every few hours, you know they would need a new pair of underpants before they could respond.) Preparing a full load of spells is faster than a wizard if you stick to spells on your known list and about the same length of time if you mix it up with spells that you don't know, plus if you need one of those weird little niche spells like Analyze Portal or that one that makes a bridge it's only a couple of minutes to grab it out.

So, yeah. Mechanically, it works fine. Flavorwise, that's a question of taste. There are a couple of downsides (you get new spell levels at the sorcerer rate rather than the wizard rate, and you arguably can't have multiple copies of the same spell retrieved at once) but it's quite functional.
Hmm, ok, for those spells that take a few minutes to retrieve, maybe it works fine. But wasn't there something about some spells taking hours? And that means your genie is gone for all that time.

Cannotthink

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Re: Fun Finds!
« Reply #203 on: January 12, 2011, 01:52:57 PM »
The only spells that take hours to retrieve are their little set of divine spells. In most cases, not practical to get. However, there is that lovely time where you do have plenty of hours free called 'sleep'.

Benly

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Re: Fun Finds!
« Reply #204 on: January 12, 2011, 11:05:44 PM »
Hmm, ok, for those spells that take a few minutes to retrieve, maybe it works fine. But wasn't there something about some spells taking hours? And that means your genie is gone for all that time.

The only spells that take hours are divine spells that are available through your domains but not on the sorc/wiz list. Any spell on the sorc/wiz list is minutes to retrieve; if you make it a spell known, it's rounds to retrieve. My recommendation is to generally ignore the divine casting except as a method of prestige class qualification and plan on using the sorc/wiz list almost exclusively (or, if you go Skypledged, fetch cleric and druid spells through Divine Spellpool instead.) Most of the domain spells a sha'ir has access to are either duplicated on the sorc/wiz list, inferior to a spell that's on the sorc/wiz list, or just not terribly interesting, so it's no great loss, but if you really want to take a few hours casting Find The Path you have that option.

There's also, of course, the option of sending your gen out before you go to bed and waking up with a Miracle in your pocket, which isn't bad.

Gods_Trick

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Re: Fun Finds!
« Reply #205 on: January 12, 2011, 11:15:37 PM »
Hmm, ok, for those spells that take a few minutes to retrieve, maybe it works fine. But wasn't there something about some spells taking hours? And that means your genie is gone for all that time.

The only spells that take hours are divine spells that are available through your domains but not on the sorc/wiz list. Any spell on the sorc/wiz list is minutes to retrieve; if you make it a spell known, it's rounds to retrieve. My recommendation is to generally ignore the divine casting except as a method of prestige class qualification and plan on using the sorc/wiz list almost exclusively (or, if you go Skypledged, fetch cleric and druid spells through Divine Spellpool instead.) Most of the domain spells a sha'ir has access to are either duplicated on the sorc/wiz list, inferior to a spell that's on the sorc/wiz list, or just not terribly interesting, so it's no great loss, but if you really want to take a few hours casting Find The Path you have that option.

There's also, of course, the option of sending your gen out before you go to bed and waking up with a Miracle in your pocket, which isn't bad.

Is there a way to get another gen so you can double up on spells retrieved? Maybe PaA a familiar gained by feat?

Benly

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Re: Fun Finds!
« Reply #206 on: January 12, 2011, 11:20:05 PM »
Is there a way to get another gen so you can double up on spells retrieved? Maybe PaA a familiar gained by feat?

I suspect that such a familiar would not be a gen familiar but rather an ordinary familiar who happens to be a gen, as it was not obtained via the Summon Gen Familiar class feature and that feature appears to be what gives the sha'ir the ability to receive spells the familiar obtains.

LunaticsLament

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Re: Fun Finds!
« Reply #207 on: January 13, 2011, 01:17:37 AM »
Is there a way to get another gen so you can double up on spells retrieved? Maybe PaA a familiar gained by feat?

I suspect that such a familiar would not be a gen familiar but rather an ordinary familiar who happens to be a gen, as it was not obtained via the Summon Gen Familiar class feature and that feature appears to be what gives the sha'ir the ability to receive spells the familiar obtains.

At this point I think that it would definitely depend on the DM.  Depending on the Player I might allow such in exchange for Obtain Familiar, Improved Familiar and a rather nasty quest.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Fun Finds!
« Reply #208 on: January 13, 2011, 01:22:38 AM »
Well, you might be able to kill your gen, get a new one, then use the raise outsider spell to resurrect your old one?
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Bauglir

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Re: Fun Finds!
« Reply #209 on: January 13, 2011, 01:40:56 AM »
According to Sage Advice in Dragon #33 (apparently), elves and half-orcs do not have souls and thus cannot be resurrected. I know it's not from 3.5, but I propose this rule be considered for addition to the game.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Gods_Trick

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Re: Fun Finds!
« Reply #210 on: January 13, 2011, 01:43:23 AM »

A gen is a gen is a gen. What if we made a simulcram of it?

Benly

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Re: Fun Finds!
« Reply #211 on: January 13, 2011, 01:47:39 AM »
Well, you might be able to kill your gen, get a new one, then use the raise outsider spell to resurrect your old one?

The Summon Gen Familiar class feature states that the gen familiar cannot be raised from the dead "since it is an outsider". Of course, specific overrides general, so now you get to decide whether the specific spell overrides the general rule that it can't be resurrected, or the specific statement in the class feature that it can't be resurrected overrides the spell that resurrects it.


A gen is a gen is a gen. What if we made a simulcram of it?

Then you would have a creature that has the Fetch Spells ability but you would not have the class feature which allows you to receive the spells that specific creature retrieves.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Fun Finds!
« Reply #212 on: January 13, 2011, 01:50:47 AM »
Well, normally outsiders can't be resurrected with raise dead. 

Even so, you could just animate dead familiar.
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bearsarebrown

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Re: Fun Finds!
« Reply #213 on: January 13, 2011, 01:58:49 AM »
According to Sage Advice in Dragon #33 (apparently), elves and half-orcs do not have souls and thus cannot be resurrected. I know it's not from 3.5, but I propose this rule be considered for addition to the game.
:clap Oh god that's great.

Gods_Trick

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Re: Fun Finds!
« Reply #214 on: January 13, 2011, 02:00:14 AM »


A gen is a gen is a gen. What if we made a simulcram of it?

Then you would have a creature that has the Fetch Spells ability but you would not have the class feature which allows you to receive the spells that specific creature retrieves.

Do you have a quotation if the rules for that? I don't have anything but a stub of the class, but I don't recall anything limiting what you can receive spells from other that your Gen familiar. By an odd twist of spells you have 2 gen familiars, I'd be more concerned that the rules read out that both would go to fectch the same spell.

But thats speculation on my part without the rules in front of me.

Benly

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Re: Fun Finds!
« Reply #215 on: January 13, 2011, 02:13:08 AM »
Do you have a quotation if the rules for that? I don't have anything but a stub of the class, but I don't recall anything limiting what you can receive spells from other that your Gen familiar. By an odd twist of spells you have 2 gen familiars, I'd be more concerned that the rules read out that both would go to fectch the same spell.

But thats speculation on my part without the rules in front of me.

The spellcasting feature includes "To do this, the sha'ir must summon his gen", which would be sufficiently vague except that you have a Summon Gen Familiar class feature, thus implying that you have to use this feature at least once to get the familiar to fetch you spells.

Kind of weirdly literal, but shockingly the weirdly literal reading of the abilities seems to actually line up with the probable RAI. Animate Dead Familiar seems like it might work, though you might argue that the creature is no longer your familiar when a new one is summoned, the summoning implicitly dismissing it.

bearsarebrown

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Re: Fun Finds!
« Reply #216 on: January 15, 2011, 08:38:45 PM »
According to this this, you can add a template more than once to the same creature as long as it continues to qualify.

 :o

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Fun Finds!
« Reply #217 on: January 15, 2011, 09:04:39 PM »
According to this this, you can add a template more than once to the same creature as long as it continues to qualify.

 :o
Where?
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bearsarebrown

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Re: Fun Finds!
« Reply #218 on: January 15, 2011, 09:18:31 PM »
Chimeric Chimera writeup.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Fun Finds!
« Reply #219 on: January 15, 2011, 09:23:36 PM »
Ah, nice.  That's been my (against the consensus) stance.  At least now I have a quote to back it up.
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