Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin

[PhaedrusXY]

I think the only flaw with creating undead is controlling them. Do Adepts get Control/Command Undead?

You automatically control the ones you create with Animate Undead, up to a (pretty high) limit. So they don't really need those spells.

[JaronK]

inb4 pointless bitching about how the undead are 'extraneous to the class and don't show the power of the adept, they show the power of the undead'

Considering the Adept class uses its class features to get the undead, I don't see why you'd get that objection.  If we were talking about a Monk using cross class UMD ranks to get a wand of Animate Dead, then you'd get that, because that would have nothing to do with Monks.

JaronK

[Sir Giacomo]

Considering the Adept class uses its class features to get the undead, I don't see why you'd get that objection.  If we were talking about a Monk using cross class UMD ranks to get a wand of Animate Dead, then you'd get that, because that would have nothing to do with Monks.

JaronK

Oh, considering that using continuously animate dead is a losing strategy in the long run, sure the monk will not do that. Using UMD (cross-class or getting it as class ability via a feat even though you do not think it possible) is only there to get spells that synergise with monk abilities, remember? Animate dead is not on that list.

Well... before I go on, I'd like to make certain a thing ... is the adept (not the dread necromancer, even mentioning this class has absolutely no use here) able to somehow overcome the problem with undead domain or feats that his nice 250 hp hydra zombie can only take a single action per round?

- Giacomo

[Solo]

Hydras can attack with all their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round.

You're welcome.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hydras can attack with all their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round.

You're welcome, too.

- Giacomo

[Solo]

Look at the Hyra entry. Look under "Special Attacks". What do you see?
Look at the Hyra entry. Look under "Special Qualities". What do you see?

[Sir Giacomo]

Hm. No special attacks, and special qualities: darkvision, low-light vision, scent and fast-healing.

- Giacomo

[Flay Crimsonwind]

except as noted here.

All that says is that the zombie is otherwise exactly like the base creature, assuming the zombie rules don't override them. In this case, the zombie can only move or attack, but it can move and attack if it makes a charge, as per the entry. The hydra, if it charges, can attack with all its heads, as part of its entry. This is not a special attack, so the zombie template does not overrule it. So even as a zombie, the hydra can charge, using each head in an attack at no penalty. Whether this is the same attack or separate attacks in the same attack action is not made clear, though either way would work. The hydra is not getting extra attack actions, it is striking multiple times in the same action.

If a DM wanted to block that, and say that the zombie hydra doesn't get that, he could, but it would be a result of rule 0 and not a result of the two not mixing by rules. RAI or RAW.

[JaronK]

Indeed, if you notice, the hydra attacks with all heads as an attack action.  This is not a Special Attack... it's just what its attack action is.  As such, a zombie hydra does get all its attacks as a standard action attack.  They're very handy that way.

But I love how you think such creatures are not survivable, when a Monk of the appropriate level is usually far less durable (he can run faster, though).

JaronK

[Mixster]

Indeed, if you notice, the hydra attacks with all heads as an attack action.  This is not a Special Attack... it's just what its attack action is.  As such, a zombie hydra does get all its attacks as a standard action attack.  They're very handy that way.

But I love how you think such creatures are not survivable, when a Monk of the appropriate level is usually far less durable (he can run faster, though).

JaronK

Well, a skeleton genie has 60ft of perfect flight, more with nimble bones. So pretty sure he's not that much faster. And you can ride it. If you sit inside a zombie Bulette, it can burrow for you.

Animate dead single-handedly makes the adept better. As long as you can keep the monsters with you, which should be relatively simple, just add a template to your mobs that gives them a burrow or a fly speed so they can hover over your heads somewhere.
Half Dragon zombie Hydras can for example fly.

[ninjarabbit]

A 12 headed zombie hydra created in a desecrated area with an alter is going to have 24d12 + 48hps +3 from toughness feat (195 hps), +19 attack bonus (+12 BAB, +2 profane, +7 str, -2 size) for 2d8 +9 (+7 str, +2 profane) damage per attack with 12 attacks/round, and a base AC of 25 (-2 size, +17 natural) with DR 5/slashing at a cost of 600 gps (24HD X 25 gp) which is less than 1% of a level 12 character's wealth and that's just core with no corpsecrafter feats or special items like black sand so those numbers can easily go up with a little effort.

By comparison a level 12 human monk with 18 str, 18 dex, 18 con, and 18 wis (being extremely generous) is going to have 12d8 + 48 hps (96 hps), +13 (+9 BAB, +4 str) unarmed attack bonus for 2d6 +4 damage with 4 attacks/round on a full attack, and a base AC of 20 (+4 dex, +4 wis, +2 monk bonus). Granted the monk can improve those numbers with feats and items but it's going to cost a lot more than 600 gps to do that.

[Lycanthromancer]

A 12 headed zombie hydra created in a desecrated area with an alter is going to have 24d12 + 48hps (192 hps), +21 attack bonus (+12 BAB, +2 profane, +7 str) for 2d8 +9 (+7 str, +2 profane) damage per attack with 12 attacks/round, and a base AC of 25 (-2 size, +17 natural) at a cost of 600 gps (24HD X 25 gp) which is less than 1% of a level 12 character's wealth and that's just core with no corpsecrafter feats or special items like black sand so those numbers can easily go up with a little effort.

By comparison a level 12 human monk with 18 str, 18 dex, 18 con, and 18 wis (being extremely generous) is going to have 12d8 + 48 hps (96 hps), +13 (+9 BAB, +4 str) unarmed attack bonus for 2d6 +4 damage with 4 attacks/round on a full attack, and a base AC of 20 (+4 dex, +4 wis, +2 monk bonus). Granted the monk can improve those numbers with feats and items but it's going to cost a lot more than 600 gps to do that.

*Scoffs* The monk is CLEARLY better. It can Use Magic Device as a class skill!

[SorO_Lost]

I think the only flaw with creating undead is controlling them. Do Adepts get Control/Command Undead?

You don't have to run faster than the undead once you create them.

You just have to run faster than the party dwarf.

This is why every party should contain at least one.

I almost never take Dwarf without boosting my speed somehow. Because outmaneuvering a human in light armour when I'm in plate armour is just awesome. Quick Trait + Boots of Sprining and Striding/Tiger Mask.

Tangent. For 2,000gp and the flavor of "I don't like taking my armor off" you ignore speed penalties of armor. Including Heavy Loads and such. See Tome of Magic's Magical Teeth for details.

[Sobolev]

I think the only flaw with creating undead is controlling them. Do Adepts get Control/Command Undead?

You don't have to run faster than the undead once you create them.

You just have to run faster than the party dwarf.

This is why every party should contain at least one.

I almost never take Dwarf without boosting my speed somehow. Because outmaneuvering a human in light armour when I'm in plate armour is just awesome. Quick Trait + Boots of Sprining and Striding/Tiger Mask.

Tangent. For 2,000gp and the flavor of "I don't like taking my armor off" you ignore speed penalties of armor. Including Heavy Loads and such. See Tome of Magic's Magical Teeth for details.

Tangent, the items are called out in their description as being unique items of which there is only one each.  That being said, that item is amazing.

Edit: This post is in no way to undermine SorO's post, I just wanted to warn people about the whole uniqueness.  He is spot on about how useful it is, and how undercosted.

[SorO_Lost]

I think the only flaw with creating undead is controlling them. Do Adepts get Control/Command Undead?

You don't have to run faster than the undead once you create them.

You just have to run faster than the party dwarf.

This is why every party should contain at least one.

I almost never take Dwarf without boosting my speed somehow. Because outmaneuvering a human in light armour when I'm in plate armour is just awesome. Quick Trait + Boots of Sprining and Striding/Tiger Mask.

Tangent. For 2,000gp and the flavor of "I don't like taking my armor off" you ignore speed penalties of armor. Including Heavy Loads and such. See Tome of Magic's Magical Teeth for details.

Tangent, the items are called out in their description as being unique items of which there is only one each.  That being said, that item is amazing.

Tangent turning Hijacking, if you Ice Assassin, Mirror Clone, or otherwise pull some create-a-copy move. Does the MTG judge remove the new Legendary Permanent, bury both, or realize he is in the wrong game and someone or something is out there cloning teeth for money? idk, but it sounds like something to remember to bring up in your next session...

[lans]

A 12 headed zombie hydra created in a desecrated area with an alter is going to have 24d12 + 48hps +3 from toughness feat (195 hps), +21 attack bonus (+12 BAB, +2 profane, +7 str) for 2d8 +9 (+7 str, +2 profane) damage per attack with 12 attacks/round, and a base AC of 25 (-2 size, +17 natural) at a cost of 600 gps (24HD X 25 gp) which is less than 1% of a level 12 character's wealth and that's just core with no corpsecrafter feats or special items like black sand so those numbers can easily go up with a little effort.

By comparison a level 12 human monk with 18 str, 18 dex, 18 con, and 18 wis (being extremely generous) is going to have 12d8 + 48 hps (96 hps), +13 (+9 BAB, +4 str) unarmed attack bonus for 2d6 +4 damage with 4 attacks/round on a full attack, and a base AC of 20 (+4 dex, +4 wis, +2 monk bonus). Granted the monk can improve those numbers with feats and items but it's going to cost a lot more than 600 gps to do that.

The attack bonus is actually only 19, due to it being huge. Also its freaking huge, some people have concerns about a horse not being able to enter some locations.

[ninjarabbit]

A 12 headed zombie hydra created in a desecrated area with an alter is going to have 24d12 + 48hps +3 from toughness feat (195 hps), +21 attack bonus (+12 BAB, +2 profane, +7 str) for 2d8 +9 (+7 str, +2 profane) damage per attack with 12 attacks/round, and a base AC of 25 (-2 size, +17 natural) at a cost of 600 gps (24HD X 25 gp) which is less than 1% of a level 12 character's wealth and that's just core with no corpsecrafter feats or special items like black sand so those numbers can easily go up with a little effort.

By comparison a level 12 human monk with 18 str, 18 dex, 18 con, and 18 wis (being extremely generous) is going to have 12d8 + 48 hps (96 hps), +13 (+9 BAB, +4 str) unarmed attack bonus for 2d6 +4 damage with 4 attacks/round on a full attack, and a base AC of 20 (+4 dex, +4 wis, +2 monk bonus). Granted the monk can improve those numbers with feats and items but it's going to cost a lot more than 600 gps to do that.

The attack bonus is actually only 19, due to it being huge. Also its freaking huge, some people have concerns about a horse not being able to enter some locations.

Corrected

[Sir Giacomo]

Guys, I am sorry to interrupt the party. But the zombie template only grants what is explicitly mentioned. No mention is made of anything beyond the statistics block and the special abilities.
So no move and full attack for the zombie hydra.

Other fun things of note:
-The zombie hydra has a land (and swim) speed of 20ft. It is not going to matter at all in these levels. Neither vs the typical CR 12 creatures, nor vs a level 12 monk. Plus, it slows down any party stupid enough to tolerate someone using such a useless, disgusting and expensive minion amonst their midst (not counting any alignment or religioin or npc problems here).
- The zombie hydra caps at 20 HD (check out the template  spell description)
- Its huge form without skills (hide or move silently ,for instance) draws attention of all opponents around the necromancer adept
- It does a whopping 1d10+6 damage at +14 to hit (add a couple of bonuses from desecrating and carrying an altar around if your group is OK with that, it hardly changes a thing). Yeah, that is going to count much at CR 12. If it can get an attack in at all.
- Its initiative stinks. So with its noisy presence, most opponents will have surprise round AND initiative round against it.
- and...by the way, where did you get that hydra corpse from again? Is there now an "undead mart" just next to the alleged "magic mart" or what? ) (and how much would the -recently dead- corpse cost?)

- Giacomo

PS: @ninjarabbit: it is ...cute that you think a monk at level 12 does 2d6+4 damage per hit....

[Talore]

- and...by the way, where did you get that hydra corpse from again? Is there now an "undead mart" just next to the alleged "magic mart" or what? ) (and how much would the -recently dead- corpse cost?)

- Giacomo

>Implying that hydras are completely unfindable
>Implying that the party couldn`t have hunted down and slain hydras for use as zombies
>Implying that a character should have completely random gear if they start above level 1
allofmyrage.jpg

[Sir Giacomo]

>Implying that hydras are completely unfindable
>Implying that the party couldn`t have hunted down and slain hydras for use as zombies
>Implying that a character should have completely random gear if they start above level 1
allofmyrage.jpg
[/quote]

implying that hydras are just as they are described in the monster manual, and vastly different from zombie hydras....
implying that a party may have at some point or another killed a hydra during level 1-12 but likely never preserved several corpses to do the necromancer adept's bidding...
implying that a character should have gear that they can buy and make if they start above level 1...

Guys...just read the rules. It helps sometimes.

- Giacomo