Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin

[ninjarabbit]

Just for more proof how bad the monk is there's another NPC class that completely outshines the monk: the adept.


Here's what that adept brings to the table:

-SAD: the adept really only needs a 15+ wis to function so the adept can easily put points into int and con.
-Familiar: Interestingly enough the adept is the only divine class that gets a familiar as a class feature. A familiar is easily worth 2 feats (alertness plus whatever bonus it gives) and gives you a scout/stalker, +2 bonus to your skill checks via add another action, and more. Too bad by RAW that the adept doesn't qualify for the improved familiar feat since it requires arcane spellcasting levels.
-A decent set of class skills: all knowledge skills, handle animal, craft (poison among others), survival, and more. While the adept only gets 2 skill points/level since it is a SAD class it can easily put a 14 or more into int in any point buy.
-Spellcasting: Only 5th level spells but a pretty solid spell list with gems like mirror image, invisibility, animate dead, polymorph, heal, raise dead. minor and major creation (good for poison masters), and wall of stone. The adept can qualify for several reserve feats like touch of healing, firey burst, and minor shapeshift to help make up for a lack of spells per day. No need for UMD and partially charged wands here. In addition an Ebberon adept can add one's domain's spells to his spell list (though he doesn't get the domain ability nor the bonus domain spell slot).

Overall the adept is a solid tier 4 class that can be useful in any tier 3 and below parties, unlike the monk who generally is a waste of space.

[JaronK]

In all fairness, it's not just the Monk who gets outshone by the Adept. 

JaronK

[Mixster]

Wild monk.

[ninjarabbit]

The Snake Charmer

Human adept 12

25 point buy
str 9
dex 12
con 14
int 14
wis 22 (15 base + 3 from level ups + 4 enhancement)
cha 8

skills: craft (poison) 15 ranks, handle animal 15 ranks, concentration 15 ranks, knowledge (nature) 5 ranks, knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks, survival 5 ranks, heal 6 ranks, knowledge (religion) 1 rank, knowledge (the planes) 1 rank, knowledge (local) 1 rank, knowledge (dungeoneering) 1 rank, spellcraft (1 rank), ride 1 rank (2 skill points spent)

Skill trick: collector of stories

Feats:
1-master of poisons, track, wild cohort (if flaws are allowed), improved initative (if flaws are allowed)
3-zen archery
6-knowledge devotion
9-corpsecrafter
12-minor shapeshift

Key items:
periapt of wisdom +4:  16,000 gps
Pearl of power 4th level: 16,000 gps
Pearl of power 3rd level: 9,000 gps
peral of power 2nd level: 4,000 gps
pearl of power 1st level: 1,000 gps

Masterwork items of all my skills: 650 gps
Big bag of black onyx gems: variable

[Bauglir]

I think everyone realizes that spellcasting ties the Monk up in a corner and turkeyslaps it to death. I would wager that if you gave the Commoner Paladin casting, it still would be competitive with a Monk or other classes in the same tier. But I probably wouldn't argue about it for pages on end, I say immediately before that exact thing probably happens.

[dark_samuari]

The Snake Charmer

Human adept 12

25 point buy
str 9
dex 10
con 14
int 14
wis 19 (16 base + 3 from level ups)
cha 8

Maxed skills: craft (poison), handle animal, concentration, knowledge (nature), 5 ranks in survival, the rest in heal

Feats:
1-master of poisons, wild cohort
3-improved initative
6-reserve feat: either firey burst or touch of healing
9-improved familiar if a DM allows it, otherwise storm bolt or touch of healing
12-minor shapeshift

Instead of human it should be Extaminar from Champions of Ruin.

[X-Codes]

A Wild Monk is better than the Adept for exactly two levels: 6th and 7th.  At 8th, the Adept gets Animate Dead and goes all lord-of-darkness, creating undead minions that would squish the monk.  At 12th, the Adept gets Polymorph, and can potentially also get Divine Power, turning his Familiar into a war machine of even more fierce power.

[Solo]

An Adept can use a partially charged wand of Polymorph long before level 12.

[SorO_Lost]

Oooh, this is like those naked women posters on 4chan where you comment on the background right?
Because if this is meant as a joke, it's not even that funny. And if not, I hate you all.

Also, Adapt vs His animated zombie, Eer I mean Awakened Spell-Stitched Pryodra. Who would win?

[X-Codes]

Oooh, this is like those naked women posters on 4chan where you comment on the background right?
Because if this is meant as a joke, it's not even that funny. And if not, I hate you all.

Also, Adapt vs His animated zombie, Eer I mean Awakened Spell-Stitched Pryodra. Who would win?

Adepts don't have Awaken Undead, which honestly is a shitty spell, anyway, and Zombies make terrible spell-sticthing targets.  Also, it doesn't matter that an Adept might die to his own Zombified Hydra, the Zombified Hydra is under the complete control of the Adept.  It's little more than a puppet.

...and no, it's not a joke.  Monks suck.  Even the Wild Monk is a pathetic whelp compared to an Adept.

[Summerstorm]

Hm? Well to be honest these threads (The Expert vs. Monk too) totally confuse me.

I know of the weird weaknesses of the monk, but Expert and Adept, REALLY? Of course anybody can construct a specific build and situation where one class (even the weakest) can get a inherently better one down. If you want to measure effectiveness between two classes you have to look on ALL possible challenges and outcomes.

The Expert with a few maximized obscure skills CAN have a peak output on some level... but in no way can make up for raw power for all the stuff of player classes. And i would rate Adept even lower... sure he got his spells... but seriously his list is pretty weak, and everything not on his list is free for all anyway.

So, to compare classes you need to have multiple challenges, as i said. If you just say: The Exper/Adept knows where the monk is (and when he sleeps), of COURSE they can buff up and go and kill him. EVERY attacker can.

We need this for example (And most of these have to be re-evaluated for different levels... and HELL: PRESTIGE-CLASSES):
The monk and the XXX are old enemies. By chance they meet each other unprepared. They are 60 ft. apart. Who wins?
The monk and the XXX are both in a dangerous, dark place. They are both prepared for trouble and will attack anything on sight. Who wins?
The monk and the XXX are both at home in a city. The other dude is a thorn in their side. They need to discredit and shame the other, before seizing their assets and have them drive off. Who wins?
The monk and the XXX both have a fortress with guards and security-wizards. How do they enter the respective other fortress and kill the master?
The monk and the XXX are in a footrace with obstacles (walls, spinning dull blades, balls shot at them, etc. while some japanese dudes laugh) who wins the money?

And much, much more. And seriously... i see the monk win in MOST, but of course not all challenges. Anything outside their classes is pretty much limited free for all anyway, so we can and should only rate in-class abilities. Expert DOES have obscure skills - and more skillpoints, (but seriously... wrestling a monk in his dreams? That is insanely circumstancial) and the Adepts has a few low-level spells. NO way that catapults him on the scale ahead, and if the monks abilities are weakish. (Yeah the freefall ability should provide movements in higher levels - spiderclimb, gliding - and yeah his self-healing should be a tick better... and yeah Abundent Step and Quivering hands should be usable more often, and he should have a DR/Chaotic growing through the levels... but STILL: Evasion, broad saves, immunities, ground mobility, combat feats... it is not THAT bad)

[X-Codes]

And much, much more. And seriously... i see the monk win in MOST, but of course not all challenges. Anything outside their classes is pretty much limited free for all anyway, so we can and should only rate in-class abilities. Expert DOES have obscure skills - and more skillpoints, (but seriously... wrestling a monk in his dreams? That is insanely circumstancial) and the Adepts has a few low-level spells. NO way that catapults him on the scale ahead, and if the monks abilities are weakish. (Yeah the freefall ability should provide movements in higher levels - spiderclimb, gliding - and yeah his self-healing should be a tick better... and yeah Abundent Step and Quivering hands should be usable more often, and he should have a DR/Chaotic growing through the levels... but STILL: Evasion, broad saves, immunities, ground mobility, combat feats... it is not THAT bad)

Really?  Most?  What the Monk has are crap, garbage, shit, and Evasion.  Ground mobility is an oxymoron in D&D, you're not mobile if you're not flying or tunneling.  Let's do a breakdown of how this all happens:

We need this for example (And most of these have to be re-evaluated for different levels... and HELL: PRESTIGE-CLASSES):
The monk and the XXX are old enemies. By chance they meet each other unprepared. They are 60 ft. apart. Who wins?

Monk vs. Expert - At low levels, the Expert can pull out a Wands/Scrolls of Entangle, Ray of Clumsiness, or Ray of Enfeeblement.  If any of the above hits the Monk, the Monk is basically incapacitated while the Expert pings him to death with a crossbow.

At each progressive level, the Expert can use higher-level scrolls than the monk and can reliably use wands from an earlier level.  He might also have a powerful mount or pet bear (let's see a Monk grapple THAT), or be absolutely deadly with a sickle.

Adept vs. Expert - Obscuring Mist, Sleep, CDG.  The Monk can't find the Expert, and the Expert can use a wand of Sleep, if need be, to just force the Monk to keep rolling until he gets a 1 on his Will save.

The monk and the XXX are both in a dangerous, dark place. They are both prepared for trouble and will attack anything on sight. Who wins?

The Monk is, essentially, blind, unless he has Darkvision or a light source (which will bring attention to himself).  The Expert can train animals with scent and blindsense and use them to guide him through the dungeon, even without light, and to alert him to danger.  If he's feeling extravagant, he can burn a scroll of Darkvision.  What's more, a Monk can't kill a Troll.  At all.  Or anything with decent DR he can't overcome, or anything incorporeal

The Adept is even better prepared for this than the Expert.  He's got an animal companion that can carry a light spell ahead of the Adept and scout around without endangering the Adept.  Obscuring Mist makes for a good defensive/obfuscation spell while the familiar directs the Adept's attacks.

The monk and the XXX are both at home in a city. The other dude is a thorn in their side. They need to discredit and shame the other, before seizing their assets and have them drive off. Who wins?

Expert, EASY.  He has a substantially higher Diplomacy mod because Charisma is a secondary score and he has all three synergy skills as class skills.  Monk has only one synergy skill and is basically forced to dump Charisma or fail at being a monk.

The Adept might lose here, because he doesn't even have Diplomacy as a class skill.  That said, he can use spells like Cause Fear, Dancing Lights, and Ghost Sound to make the Monk's mansion seem haunted.

The monk and the XXX both have a fortress with guards and security-wizards. How do they enter the respective other fortress and kill the master?

The Expert has a chance if he burns ridiculous amounts of resources, but not the monk.  The Adept can play the CoP game since he has Commune and enough spellcasting ability to screw over an unprepared mage, but if there's a security wizard, there's really no realistic chance that any of the three classes mentioned will ever succeed at this task (nevermind actually be able to hire security-wizards).

The monk and the XXX are in a footrace with obstacles (walls, spinning dull blades, balls shot at them, etc. while some japanese dudes laugh) who wins the money?

Nothing even remotely like this happens in D&D.  Prince of Persia doesn't translate to D&D because there's a certain something lost when the success of gravity-defying acrobatics is determined by lady luck.

[Summerstorm]

HOLY......

This is exactly what i mean. You have just totally perverted my clean, simple "imaginary scenarios" with ridiculous assumptions. You just only assumed in all scenarios that the monk will lose out and built from there.

Why would he lose initiative in the 60 ft. apart example? Why does the Expert have exactly the spells needed, why does the monk fail a save? Why is a PREPARED monk blind and has no light with him? Why can't he find an enemy in an obscuring mist... and how can your expert cast through that no problem?

And in the social challenge: Why does ONE roll or skill determine the outcome. Just having a probably higher diplomancy check doesn't make you a wizard in a city. The monk has other options (Maybe he is a great scout/ good at shadowing people. Maybe he can outfight people in a brawl better, maybe he can build a reputaion faster and more relaible, because of his powerful background. And even IF it is all one check, in all situations. Why does a +4 over another mean you have a 100% perfect chance to be always better?

The whole thing with using wands and magical items and such is: Defeating problems by throwing money at it. EVERYBODY (who has UMD) can do that.

Oh and also with flying: Come on. I know flying is powerful and all... but not EVERYBODY flies (all the time), well... at least nobody who paid the 55k? for flying boots. And of course prepared wizards and sorcerers etc. on mid-high levels.

So yeah... i would say: Experts, Adepts and monks have roughly the same ability to fly.

[Midnight_v]

Wild monk.

doesn't exist. . .

[X-Codes]

Why would he lose initiative in the 60 ft. apart example?

He might not, but what is he going to do?  Charge?  An expert can take 1d6+2.  Seriously, Monks do shit for damage.

Why does the Expert have exactly the spells needed, why does the monk fail a save?

Entangle is a brutal spell at low levels, and the Monk will have to make multiple saves if the Expert places it appropriately.  The others have no saving throw, they're touch attacks.

Why is a PREPARED monk blind and has no light with him?

  He can have light with him.  Expert doesn't need it.

Why can't he find an enemy in an obscuring mist... and how can your expert cast through that no problem?

Actually, it was the Adept casting through it no problem, because the Adept has a familiar that can spot for him.  Plus, Sleep has an AoE.  If the Adept kinda sorta knows where the monk is, then he can hit the monk with sleep.  Also, the monk would have to get lucky to find the Adept in the mist.

And in the social challenge: Why does ONE roll or skill determine the outcome. Just having a probably higher diplomancy check doesn't make you a wizard in a city.

  Have you read the Diplomacy skill?  It allows for some pretty obscene stuff.  If you prefer, I could have the Expert blow a scroll of Glibness and say that the Monk was a retarded mind flayer that had it's tentacles amputated, but was somehow still a threat to society and would have to be killed by drilling a hole in his his head and replacing his brain with salt, and the people would believe it.  Also, I suggested non-Diplomacy options with my Adept since Adepts don't get it as a class skill.  That said, the monk can't do shit aside from roll a shitty diplomacy check or punch people for 1d6+2.

The monk has other options (Maybe he is a great scout/ good at shadowing people. Maybe he can outfight people in a brawl better, maybe he can build a reputaion faster and more relaible, because of his powerful background.

See previous sentence.  The monk's options suck ass.  You can shadow people to the end of the world, and that makes you a half-decent nameless crony, but even that can be done better by an Adept casting Commune.  As for combat, a Monk can't fight it's way out of a paper bag.  It's sole purpose was supposed to be damage output when it was designed, which is not only the shittiest thing you can do in D&D, but the Monk is absolutely terrible at it.

And even IF it is all one check, in all situations. Why does a +4 over another mean you have a 100% perfect chance to be always better?

It's not +4.  A decently optimized Expert will have at least a 16 in Charisma.  A Monk *might* have an 8.  That basically means the Expert is reliably making those Diplomacy checks eight levels before the Monk is.  In reality, he's doing it even faster than that.

The whole thing with using wands and magical items and such is: Defeating problems by throwing money at it. EVERYBODY (who has UMD) can do that.

It's a common myth that low-level Monks have UMD.  They're not even capable of reliably using a Wand until almost 10th level.

Oh and also with flying: Come on. I know flying is powerful and all... but not EVERYBODY flies (all the time), well... at least nobody who paid the 55k? for flying boots. And of course prepared wizards and sorcerers etc. on mid-high levels.

So yeah... i would say: Experts, Adepts and monks have roughly the same ability to fly.

Well, Dire Bat mounts are pretty popular, and accessible at low levels with Handle Animal optimization.  That's a skill both Adepts and Experts have, but Monks don't.  I'm something of a fan of the Phantom Steed spell; the move rate on those things is downright obscene.  There's also the Overland Flight spell, but you'd really want that on your spell list since it's not in cheap wand form.  Air Walk is a bit more accessible for the Adept, but has an even shorter duration, and wands of it are really expensive.  At that point, you might as well buy the boots.

So yeah, Experts and Adepts have an easier time with flying mounts, and can probably lift off themselves a bit earlier.  The point I was actually making, however, was that the Monk's move speed enhancement was a non-ability because ground-based movement speed really doesn't help.

[LordBlades]

Hm? Well to be honest these threads (The Expert vs. Monk too) totally confuse me.

I know of the weird weaknesses of the monk, but Expert and Adept, REALLY? Of course anybody can construct a specific build and situation where one class (even the weakest) can get a inherently better one down. If you want to measure effectiveness between two classes you have to look on ALL possible challenges and outcomes.

The Expert with a few maximized obscure skills CAN have a peak output on some level... but in no way can make up for raw power for all the stuff of player classes. And i would rate Adept even lower... sure he got his spells... but seriously his list is pretty weak, and everything not on his list is free for all anyway.

Well, expert makes a decent skill monkey since it can select a bunch of good skills as class skills.

Adept, while having a limited spell list, it does have quite a few good spells(Sleep, Web, Aniamte Dead, Cause Fear, Command, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Minor and Major Creation, Polymorph, Wall of Stone, Commune, True Seeing). A bunch of good spells>no spells by quite a large margin.

Monk on the other hand fails at being a decent pretty much anything.
 

[Midnight_v]

HOLY......

This is exactly what i mean. You have just totally perverted my clean, simple "imaginary scenarios" with ridiculous assumptions. You just only assumed in all scenarios that the monk will lose out and built from there.

Why would he lose initiative in the 60 ft. apart example? Why does the Expert have exactly the spells needed, why does the monk fail a save? Why is a PREPARED monk blind and has no light with him? Why can't he find an enemy in an obscuring mist... and how can your expert cast through that no problem?

And in the social challenge: Why does ONE roll or skill determine the outcome. Just having a probably higher diplomancy check doesn't make you a wizard in a city. The monk has other options (Maybe he is a great scout/ good at shadowing people. Maybe he can outfight people in a brawl better, maybe he can build a reputaion faster and more relaible, because of his powerful background. And even IF it is all one check, in all situations. Why does a +4 over another mean you have a 100% perfect chance to be always better?

The whole thing with using wands and magical items and such is: Defeating problems by throwing money at it. EVERYBODY (who has UMD) can do that.

Oh and also with flying: Come on. I know flying is powerful and all... but not EVERYBODY flies (all the time), well... at least nobody who paid the 55k? for flying boots. And of course prepared wizards and sorcerers etc. on mid-high levels.

So yeah... i would say: Experts, Adepts and monks have roughly the same ability to fly.

Honestly... you likely just don't have enough experience to know better. The reason I suggest that is the questions your asking seem to be very ininformed. Like why can an adept cast in an obscuring mist.
There are 2 types of people who really don't get whats going on, those who don't know and those who willingly ignore whats going on.

[Sobolev]

HOLY......

This is exactly what i mean. You have just totally perverted my clean, simple "imaginary scenarios" with ridiculous assumptions. You just only assumed in all scenarios that the monk will lose out and built from there.

Why would he lose initiative in the 60 ft. apart example? Why does the Expert have exactly the spells needed, why does the monk fail a save? Why is a PREPARED monk blind and has no light with him? Why can't he find an enemy in an obscuring mist... and how can your expert cast through that no problem?

And in the social challenge: Why does ONE roll or skill determine the outcome. Just having a probably higher diplomancy check doesn't make you a wizard in a city. The monk has other options (Maybe he is a great scout/ good at shadowing people. Maybe he can outfight people in a brawl better, maybe he can build a reputaion faster and more relaible, because of his powerful background. And even IF it is all one check, in all situations. Why does a +4 over another mean you have a 100% perfect chance to be always better?

The whole thing with using wands and magical items and such is: Defeating problems by throwing money at it. EVERYBODY (who has UMD) can do that.

Oh and also with flying: Come on. I know flying is powerful and all... but not EVERYBODY flies (all the time), well... at least nobody who paid the 55k? for flying boots. And of course prepared wizards and sorcerers etc. on mid-high levels.

So yeah... i would say: Experts, Adepts and monks have roughly the same ability to fly.

It's like there's a 24 page thread on this same forum that explains why Monks are worse, and you still have managed to not read any of it.

Also several of your defenses of monk are RP things that don't involve rules.  If your DM lets you just talk your way out of everything and not use skills at all, then that probably will help the monk substantially but has nothing to do with the game as written.   "maybe he can build a reputaion faster and more relaible, because of his powerful background. " what does that even mean?

Monk class features are worse than skill optimization, don't feel bad most things that low on the tier list have the same problem, and Experts are better at skill optimization by a good amount.  Further if the monk wants to TRY skill optimization he has to dump more stats and can't keep up with the point buy while maintaining his ability to do physical damage.  Which he really wasn't very good at anyway. 

Furthermore, even if he were good at shadowing people, an expert would be better because he has more skills.

[the_shadowmind]

Wild monk.

doesn't exist. . .

Just because it from Dragon Mag, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means it will get almost no use. Shares the book with the Filidh(wizard variant) and the Wild Defender(Ranger Variant, gets spells earlier).

[veekie]

Also several of your defenses of monk are RP things that don't involve rules.  If your DM lets you just talk your way out of everything and not use skills at all, then that probably will help the monk substantially but has nothing to do with the game as written.   "maybe he can build a reputaion faster and more relaible, because of his powerful background. " what does that even mean?

Try that with the Expert, Mr Damascus, renowned creator of masterwork blades. Or Expert Gandhi, who has a high diplomacy skill and a reputation for bringing peace.
Probably has a comparable reputation to the Grandmaster of Sixteen Flowers who resides at a monastery out of town, but have the skills to leverage their reputation instead of sink it.
Remember, even with 32 point buy, a monk is hard pressed to have ANYTHING at all in his Int and Cha, which are the only stats neither his class skills, class features nor fighting styles are compatible with.