Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin

[Tshern]

One of the things that makes Dragons so dangerous is not only that they're under-CRed for the basic aspects of them (high saves, AC, HD, etc.), but also that they're supposed to be statted out by the DM.

In other words, every True Dragon you fight is an optimized True Dragon.

Source?

[oslecamo]

For the record, Jaronk's adept also uses MM IV for that undead that patches up undead up for free.

One of the things that makes Dragons so dangerous is not only that they're under-CRed for the basic aspects of them (high saves, AC, HD, etc.), but also that they're supposed to be statted out by the DM.

In other words, every True Dragon you fight is an optimized True Dragon.

Source?

Actualy an interesting point I overlooked. Unlike other monsters in the MM, dragons don't have "ready to use" stat blocks. You have their base stats, but you still need to give them feats and skills, unlike other monsters that make simply horrendous feat and skill choices.

So indeed you can't throw a true dragon out of the MM at the party whitout personally selecting its feats and skill points.

[Bozwevial]

For the record, Jaronk's adept also uses MM IV for that undead that patches up undead up for free.

True, although I was under the impression that the carnifex wasn't there by design but rather because that's one of the encounters he rolled.

[Lo77o]

For the record, Jaronk's adept also uses MM IV for that undead that patches up undead up for free.

True, although I was under the impression that the carnifex wasn't there by design but rather because that's one of the encounters he rolled.

He made them with Animate Dead.

[snakeman830]

For the record, Jaronk's adept also uses MM IV for that undead that patches up undead up for free.

One of the things that makes Dragons so dangerous is not only that they're under-CRed for the basic aspects of them (high saves, AC, HD, etc.), but also that they're supposed to be statted out by the DM.

In other words, every True Dragon you fight is an optimized True Dragon.

Source?

Actualy an interesting point I overlooked. Unlike other monsters in the MM, dragons don't have "ready to use" stat blocks. You have their base stats, but you still need to give them feats and skills, unlike other monsters that make simply horrendous feat and skill choices.

So indeed you can't throw a true dragon out of the MM at the party whitout personally selecting its feats and skill points.

And spells.

[JaronK]

True, although I was under the impression that the carnifex wasn't there by design but rather because that's one of the encounters he rolled.

No, I forgot to mention that in the source books.  Necrosis Carnexes are actually made of any humanoid corpses you like (meaning they're really easy to get), so that should count as a source book too.  In fact, that one's pretty important, because I needed either the Carnexes or a casting of Black Sand to get permanent healing (Black Sand would be in Sandstorm, so either way it would be one more book).

So that's three other books... though none needed in this fight.  A fourth when you count the fact that I'll be raising that dragon as a Zombie Dragon... again, not really relevant to this fight.

JaronK

[SorO_Lost]

book limitations are frequently the result of perceived balance issues and not availability.

Like Psionics is overpowered, FR hate, At-Will disgust (tob), and Steampunk dislike?

Balance isn't the reason they are banned, they just say it is. Just saying.

Here's the thing. Your Adapt exists, and whatever game breaking spell to choose are accessible to anyone with UMD are points in its favor. However, Tiers have to take into account real games, besides theoretical power. This is why certain options for ACFs can move a class up or down a Tier, and why such cases typically get their own separate entry and nothing is solely based on a single build or utter dependency on followers.

You can present any Super Spell you like, most are in core but that is no excuse to pull up some book count comments in a none-Core-only debate. The particular optimized build discussed here which uses the defacto book of undead and the defacto book on dragons to create a powerful proxy but fundamentally overlooks all inherent weaknesses of the Adapt, like the dragon have more than 4 int and just eating him, or the fact the entire undead derailment of the Adapt hinges on starting at level 8 or above. I'd say it's fairly obvious that Adapt has a strictly lesser chance of making it into any given game since a Paladin makes a better spell caster than it. That's a point against it, and while that's not enough to come to a complete conclusion about the class' overall power, it is a single piece of evidence.

When combined with the base Adapt's general inability to function, that does tend to weigh against it. Also, bear in mind; which of your pokemon of choice can your build do without? Without playing an undead loving evil character could you really make it from level 1 to level 12 to start talking about using Polymorph? There are other perspectives to consider as well. Adaptability. If your Adapt works only with that specific combination of variables, then it's an out line on the power curve. So would be an Adept evoker if it couldn't control significant undead without access to Libris Mortis or something, but it can because thats all it has. If your Adapt doesn't really need pokemon and is just using them as an optimizational edge, then you have a decent argument for saying the Adapt him self is combat ready.

Pretty sure I misquoted there...

To note, the Blink ACF is better replaced by paying a spellcaster to Planeshift you to the Ethereal Plane and simply use the Ethereal Reaver. Or given the debate level 12+, just buy something that gives Blink. The Total Concealment ACF is powerful as it saves optimizing the Hide skill, which while easy enough to increase but is yet another corner that the Monk has the direct option to snip. The ubercharger concept is simply how all none-maneuver and none-TWF-bonus-Damage melees fight and thus a much broader area of expertise then single handedly committing all ideas as if you were lv8+ and have a legendary shiny whose CR is actually several times higher than your own begging the simple question of how the hell you beat it to begin with.

I can say I'm not saying the Monk is more powerful than Polymorph or Animate Dead (really, animate dead is weak without key monsters). But what I am saying, is without those two spells the Adapt is crap, and like the Ranger his class feature Summon Familiar is more powerful than him. Bitching about two useful ACFs while hung up on Hydra & TD minions is akin to telling a kid he was bad for stealing candy from the store while you eat it. ...No wait, it's worse than that. This Animated Super Dead tangent is highlighting the fact you consider mindless meatbags better than the Adapt's ability to cast the most broken chain of things in D&D. Try telling the kid to steal some more candy for you afterwards then call the cops or something.

[JaronK]

If the Adept is crap without those two spells, why aren't those the spells he's using to beat this Dragon?  I went with Web and Scorching Ray... Animate Dead was mostly giving me nasty stuff to distract the dragon with (and make it harder to just run in and snatch).

I mean yeah, they're really strong spells, but Web and Scorching Ray are really solid too.  And the Imp is quite potent, with his stealth and social skills and divination abilities.

JaronK

[Sir Giacomo]

[ninjarabbit]

An adept can survive levels 1-7 with handle animal optimization, poison optimization, his decent selection of 1st and 2nd level spells, and his familiar.

[Bozwevial]

In regard to the number of sourcebooks used: From a quantitative perspective, the monk still uses twelve sourcebooks to the adept's eight, making him viable in fewer games. It is by no means a solid rubric for determining power; it merely provides an indicator as to how much of a unique case the build in question is.

book limitations are frequently the result of perceived balance issues and not availability.

Like Psionics is overpowered, FR hate, At-Will disgust (tob), and Steampunk dislike?

Balance isn't the reason they are banned, they just say it is. Just saying.

Personal preference is another reason, yes, but their actual balance rarely has anything to do with their bans. How the DM believes they are balanced is the determining factor there. That's why they're called perceived balance issues.

[snakeman830]

It's worth pointing out that the animals and domain are completely unecessary to Jaron's Adept in the Dragon scenario (only need one casting of Black Sand to get as much as you want, and even then it isn't that big of a deal since it would provide a maximum of 18 hp more over the entire fight (it's over in 3 rounds, really).  He can have that much in temporary hp from the Carnexes and ignore the Black Sand altogether.

Now, ignoring the Undead:

The Dragon's maximum effective range is shorter than the Adept's range, so strafing attacks just mean the adept readies actions (and wipes off a third of the dragon's hp each hit while the dragon is using its least optimal attack strategy).  Sneaking up on the dragon is more or less unecessary, he just has to confirm the dragon's whereabouts with the Imp.  Resist Energy (conviniently, on the Adept spell list) would be taking off most (30 points) of the 7d6 damage from the breath weapon to render it more ineffective (actually negating everything that's average damage and a bit higher), even before the save.  

If an Adept knew he was going after a White Dragon (presumably both characters did, since they found the lair), he would have at least cast that beforehand and filled his 3rd level slots with actual combat spells.

The dragon's best strategy against the Monk is strafing.  The best strategy against the Adept is melee.  Only difference is, the strafing dragon vs. Monk results in the dragon taking no damage and the melee vs. Adept taking some (possibly significant) damage.  Not to mention that the Adept can walk back and Web (since the dragon is almost assuredly in a place where he can be nabbed by it if he's in melee range).

[oslecamo]

Why is the poor dragon forced to fight featless, spellless, equipmentless and skilless against the pimped up adept again?

[Bozwevial]

Why is the poor dragon forced to fight featless, spellless, equipmentless and skilless against the pimped up adept again?

I think one of the assumptions we were operating under was that the dragon had Nerveskitter. That's about the only thing I've seen, and that was in regard to the monk's initiative (can't remember or easily check what the adept did about it, if anything). That said, it does seem unfair that the third party in this competition is unstatted. 

[JaronK]

Why is the poor dragon forced to fight featless, spellless, equipmentless and skilless against the pimped up adept again?

Actually, I believe the guy who was playing DM for this gave him Entangling Exhalation and Nerveskitter... not sure what else.  So... no, he wasn't fighting spell less or featless.  It's just that he's going to have a tough time because the Adept can out shoot him in a ranged fight (Maximized or Empowered Scorching Ray vs his vulnerability, against a breath weapon that Resist Energy stops cold) but the zombies become a threat at close range (especially if they start grappling and holding him).

By comparison, all he has to do is out maneuver and breathe on the Monk, staying out of attack range, and then maybe use his Crush attack to screw the Monk entirely.   And neither the Adept nor Monk is likely to sneak up on the Dragon... they tend to have traps and such to protect them, and while the Monk can't avoid those the Adept can't unless he happens to dominate a Rogue (which could happen, but who can say?) and even then the Zombies are hardly stealthy.  So they're both going to be fighting an alerted Dragon... the Adept just has enough force to win in that situation, while the Monk does not.

I'm not sure why Giacomo thinks the Monk's just going to sneak up on the dragon... a smart dragon would just have his lair set up such that his Blindsense reaches to the edge of whatever area he's in.  Why be in a long cave that leaves you somewhat blind to the end of it, when just being around a corner protects you?  Really, nobody sneaks up on a dragon without Darkstalker.  And neither the Monk nor Adept have that.

JaronK

[Solo]

Why is the poor dragon forced to fight featless, spellless, equipmentless and skilless against the pimped up adept again?

Why do people not bother putting points into literacy?

God knows.

[snakeman830]

Why is the poor dragon forced to fight featless, spellless, equipmentless and skilless against the pimped up adept again?

Actually, I believe the guy who was playing DM for this gave him Entangling Exhalation and Nerveskitter... not sure what else.  So... no, he wasn't fighting spell less or featless.  It's just that he's going to have a tough time because the Adept can out shoot him in a ranged fight (Maximized or Empowered Scorching Ray vs his vulnerability, against a breath weapon that Resist Energy stops cold) but the zombies become a threat at close range (especially if they start grappling and holding him).

Just figured I would point out that 9 headed Hydra zombies are rather unlikely to grapple this dragon.  They have a +25 Grapple modifier (including Cropsecrafter bonus) and the Dragon has +37 modifier.  They're more likely to succeed than the Giaccomonk, but still rather unlikely.  (Who ever thought that Aid Another shouldn't apply to Grapple?  I want to shoot them)

[Shinzen]

Why is the poor dragon forced to fight featless, spellless, equipmentless and skilless against the pimped up adept again?

Why do people not bother putting points into literacy?

God knows.

For once I'm going to agree with you. I know I posted a few blocks of text, but I assumed by now people would have at least skimmed them.

I was literally building the dragon to the best of my ability specifically to be able to counter PCs. Entangling Exhalation and Fly-By attack prevent any ground based opponent from doing much, Power Attack combined with a 21 BAB can account for a hell of a lot of damage, and Nerveskitter and Silent Image are really the only decent first level spells worth taking. Actually, JaronK, does your build have any flight? Because the Dragon could take Enlarge Breath or Shape Breath and get a 70 foot line that would outrange your ray.

There isn't much else to do, I can't use magic items, change HD or Classes. Feats and spells are it. And even in the Best-Case-Scenario for the dragon, both classes have a decent chance of killing it. Giacomo's Monk has between a 30-60% chance depending on initiative and miss chance, and JaronK's adept depends on being able to avoid being Grappled. If he can, he has basically a 98% chance of victory (He would need to roll 2 1s on his touch attacks) if he cannot, he still has about a 50% chance because of his zombies. This is assuming neither will be able to get the jump on the dragon (Seriously Giacomo, you are assuming you run into in in the best-case-scenario for you. What kind of DM are you playing with? You can kill anything if you catch it sleeping next to a stack of dynamite.)

If I had money to spend on magic items for the dragon, both would lose easily. Ghost Touch natural attacks and Fire resistance. But, alas, that would be cheating.

[oslecamo]

Why is the poor dragon forced to fight featless, spellless, equipmentless and skilless against the pimped up adept again?

Actually, I believe the guy who was playing DM for this gave him Entangling Exhalation and Nerveskitter... not sure what else.  So... no, he wasn't fighting spell less or featless.  It's just that he's going to have a tough time because the Adept can out shoot him in a ranged fight (Maximized or Empowered Scorching Ray vs his vulnerability, against a breath weapon that Resist Energy stops cold) but the zombies become a threat at close range (especially if they start grappling and holding him).

Sorceror spellcasting unlocks the use of arcane wands, and one spell every dragon wants is Blinding Scales, precisely to compensate for its awful touch AC.  The dragon has triple standard treasure and all dragon splatbooks suport that dragons invest in magic items. And it plays to the dragon's strenght of puting their massive natural armor to good use.

Speaking of defences, how are you countering the dragon's SR again? I remember the question rised somewhere, but didn't catch the solution to that.

And as just said the dragon easily outgrapples even your top zombies.

[Shinzen]

Why is the poor dragon forced to fight featless, spellless, equipmentless and skilless against the pimped up adept again?

Actually, I believe the guy who was playing DM for this gave him Entangling Exhalation and Nerveskitter... not sure what else.  So... no, he wasn't fighting spell less or featless.  It's just that he's going to have a tough time because the Adept can out shoot him in a ranged fight (Maximized or Empowered Scorching Ray vs his vulnerability, against a breath weapon that Resist Energy stops cold) but the zombies become a threat at close range (especially if they start grappling and holding him).

Sorceror spellcasting unlocks the use of wands, and one spell every dragon wants is Blinding Scales, precisely to compensate for its awful touch AC.  The dragon has quadruple standard treasure and all dragon splatbooks suport that dragons invest in magic items. And it plays to the dragon's strenght of puting their massive natural armor to good use.

Speaking of defences, how are you countering the dragon's SR again? I remember the question rised somewhere, but didn't catch the solution to that.

And as just said the dragon easily outgrapples even your top zombies.

Ok, so wait, I can invest in magic then?

Somebody get a consensus going here, cause I can build and stat out this dragon with magic items if you want, but in my opinion one of these things with 4x standard treasure for CR 12 (about 40,000 GP) is going to end up being a mite higher than ECL 12.

There is a thing in the MM somewhere that states that monsters are balanced around stats and abilities and not items when determining CR, but humanoids should be expected to have class levels and magic items with them to be balanced.