Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin

[Solo]

Actually, his first post on this site to my knowledge was loudly proclaiming that I fail. It was actually quite adorable.

[ninjarabbit]

I'm 50/50 on if this is the original Giacomo or not.

On one hand this could be someone trolling the board.

On the other hand even a professional troll isn't this dense. And seriously why would anyone want to be Giacomo? It's like wanting to be Andy Dick or Peter Criss.

[Tshern]

Actually, his first post on this site to my knowledge was loudly proclaiming that I fail. It was actually quite adorable.

Hence not 'many' steps off that path. Plenty of regulars here can get rather harsh and obtuse as well.

[Sir Giacomo]

OK, I'll try to help defuse things a bit and leave this thread for now.
People in here got quite angry (and even linked me to Nazi Germany, among other things) so it does not need to get out of hand.

I'll focus on the more constructive legendary fighters thread for now where some good builds are being done and compared imo.

- Giacomo

PS JaronK: maybe we can discuss this thing another day, and possibly better via PM.

[lans]

1 Feat = Can replicate Expert's claim on throwing gold at encounters, Monk gets 3 bonus feats.

3 shitty feats that really don't count because the monk can't use them and the adept or expert would not ever buy any way.

Why can't the monk use them?

He meant "use them as efficiently as other classes".

He can use a good chunk of them as well as anybody else. Deflect arrows, expertise, dodge etc...


They just suck compared to general feats- Wild Cohort, Talent,Item Familiar, Imperious Command etc

Not counting Martial Monk feats

and that Monks are better than Experts because they can survive well by tanking their Wis and Str and pumping Int and Cha

Now, you see, this is why I call the Giacomo here a fake. The original had several defining traits that never changed, no matter how much we argued it:

• He believed that Core-only was balanced.
• He believed that Monks were SAD because they could pump Wis and never worry about needing Con for HP, since his AC could get "so high".

Epic Toughness for the win  

[JaronK]

I love pulling the Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold with Epic Toughness at level 1 trick... just be a Crusader and be ridiculously hard to kill (at a level where most things only kill with hit point damage).  Plus, you know, Kobold Crusader just has a certain ring to it.

JaronK

[Lycanthromancer]

I love pulling the Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold with Epic Toughness at level 1 trick... just be a Crusader and be ridiculously hard to kill (at a level where most things only kill with hit point damage).  Plus, you know, Kobold Crusader just has a certain ring to it.

JaronK

Well, kobolds ARE core...

[Solo]

People in here got quite angry (and even linked me to Nazi Germany, among other things) so it does not need to get out of hand.

More to the point, I suggested that you spend your time combating the resurgence of neo-Nazism.

[lans]

I love pulling the Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold with Epic Toughness at level 1 trick... just be a Crusader and be ridiculously hard to kill (at a level where most things only kill with hit point damage).  Plus, you know, Kobold Crusader just has a certain ring to it.

JaronK

See monks are on par with dragonwrought kobolds, obviously they're broken.

I kind of see them ranked like this
Monk
Expert
Monk with a lot of ACFs
Adept

[awaken DM golem]

I could swear there is a CR 7 monster list, and a CR 12 monster list, around here somewhere.


I'm just not asking the Google the right questions.


hmm ... 

[snakeman830]

Just for Giaccomo:

Note the attack entry.

[Sinfire Titan]

Just for Giaccomo:

Note the attack entry.

Note that this one does not have the benefits of Nimble Bones.

[Sir Giacomo]

Well ... that is a good find. And I stand corrected!
So really the "statistics" part in the zombie and skeleton template includes also the hydra's ability to attack with all heads and move (and in the zombie's case, just charge and attack or just attack).
Meaning...that in the 1% max case that an adept will encounter a hydra, defeats it and animates it, he'll have a skeleton hydra able to move and attack with all heads. Definitely more useful in that case (and more survivable with that improved attacking power).

However, I still doubt that will make an adept's strategy to run around with undead a viable tactics over the long run (note that the huge hydra cannot be put into that enveloping pit since that is too small for it, so the adept with, say, several such no-skill-no-sneaky skeletal hydras just announces from afar that he comes...).

- Giacomo

[Lycanthromancer]

Well ... that is a good find. And I stand corrected!
So really the "statistics" part in the zombie and skeleton template includes also the hydra's ability to attack with all heads and move (and in the zombie's case, just charge and attack or just attack).
Meaning...that in the 1% max case that an adept will encounter a hydra, defeats it and animates it, he'll have a skeleton hydra able to move and attack with all heads. Definitely more useful in that case (and more survivable with that improved attacking power).

However, I still doubt that will make an adept's strategy to run around with undead a viable tactics over the long run (note that the huge hydra cannot be put into that enveloping pit since that is too small for it, so the adept with, say, several such no-skill-no-sneaky skeletal hydras just announces from afar that he comes...).

- Giacomo

Unless he goes and hunts down a hydra, which he is fully capable of doing. Or, y'know, finds one of the myriad other critters around that make for awesome undead and can be disguised as a humanoid type or a living pet.

[Sobolev]

Well ... that is a good find. And I stand corrected!
So really the "statistics" part in the zombie and skeleton template includes also the hydra's ability to attack with all heads and move (and in the zombie's case, just charge and attack or just attack).
Meaning...that in the 1% max case that an adept will encounter a hydra, defeats it and animates it, he'll have a skeleton hydra able to move and attack with all heads. Definitely more useful in that case (and more survivable with that improved attacking power).

However, I still doubt that will make an adept's strategy to run around with undead a viable tactics over the long run (note that the huge hydra cannot be put into that enveloping pit since that is too small for it, so the adept with, say, several such no-skill-no-sneaky skeletal hydras just announces from afar that he comes...).

- Giacomo

Unless, for example, the Skeletal Hydra was invisible with a, just for example, level 2 spell called Invisibility.

[awaken DM golem]

What's the advantage of having a spell on your List vs. just using UMD on any old item ... 


1) ... don't have to visit a Magic Mart
2) ... X__________________________

[Lycanthromancer]

What's the advantage of having a spell on your List vs. just using UMD on any old item ... 


1) ... don't have to visit a Magic Mart
2) ... X__________________________

2) ... you don't have to spend tons of cash on expendibles
3) ... you don't have to rely on the DM's good graces for buying the expendibles
4) ... you won't run out of expendibles
5) ... if you want to use expendibles then you don't have to deal with the additional potential failure (and losing access to the item for 24 hours if you fail on a nat 1)
6) ... you don't have to spend the extra skill points on UMD/UPD (though it IS a good skill if you're in the position to use it on things you find)
7) ... you can create expendibles if you so choose for less gp than otherwise, which increases your effective wealth
8) ... you can say without reservation that it's your character pulling the weight, not his equipment
9) ... expendibles are far too easy to strip off a character; class features, not so much
10) ... there's more, but I think you get the picture

[JaronK]

Well ... that is a good find. And I stand corrected!
So really the "statistics" part in the zombie and skeleton template includes also the hydra's ability to attack with all heads and move (and in the zombie's case, just charge and attack or just attack).
Meaning...that in the 1% max case that an adept will encounter a hydra, defeats it and animates it, he'll have a skeleton hydra able to move and attack with all heads. Definitely more useful in that case (and more survivable with that improved attacking power).

Remember, when I did four randomized encounters via a random encounter generator, my fourth encounter was indeed 5 9 headed hydras.  They're a pretty commonly used monster, found in the Monster Manual... it's not that surprising that you might see one (especially in a core game, but even in a normal game it's pretty reasonable).  Remember, there's Hydras for every CR from 5-12, so it's very likely you can see one of these somewhere.  And I'm not sure why you say "skeleton hydra."  If you find a hydra, make a zombie out of it, as they're perfect for that due to their standard action attacks and decent natural armor.

Remember, Skeletons can full attack anyway.  And they're best made out of Giants or things with magical flight speeds, though anything with appropriate HD (as high as you can get, max 20) will probably be good.

However, I still doubt that will make an adept's strategy to run around with undead a viable tactics over the long run (note that the huge hydra cannot be put into that enveloping pit since that is too small for it, so the adept with, say, several such no-skill-no-sneaky skeletal hydras just announces from afar that he comes...).

They're no less stealthy than most big mounts.  Really, I'd just walk around with them in many situations.  Obviously if it's an inner city campaign I might not, but for smashing your way through hostile territory they're amazing (especially with some healing support via a Necrosis Carnex).  Remember, this is just ONE Adept spell.  There's other options for other situations, and this one is amazing for grinding through enemies.

JaronK

[Tshern]

Not to mention that in hostile environments undead hydras could actually discourage lesser enemies from attacking...

[ninjarabbit]

So we've gone from trying to beat Batman to failing against NPC classes, how the mighty have fallen.