Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin

[ninjarabbit]

PS: @ninjarabbit: it is ...cute that you think a monk at level 12 does 2d6+4 damage per hit....

I forgot your monks have 18 int and 8 str so we're looking at 2d6 -1 damage

[Nachofan99]

Giacomo, you have to admit that whether the Adept gets a Hydra Zombie or 5 Ogre Zombies, it easily has access to "pets" via spells.

I do appreciate the subleties that you mention - standard traveling with zombies is arduous and cumbersome - but even medium level parties no longer travel via "Standard" methods, and the idea of an Adept having some undead minions is pretty reasonable.

They're great for trap springing at the very least.

[lans]

Does the Adept have the tool set to track down particular creatures? If not then I'm not sure you can guarantee any particular creature.

Hydras are pretty much top tier as far as zombies go, can we decide on a more mid tier type of zombie?

[Sir Giacomo]

Giacomo, you have to admit that whether the Adept gets a Hydra Zombie or 5 Ogre Zombies, it easily has access to "pets" via spells.

I do appreciate the subleties that you mention - standard traveling with zombies is arduous and cumbersome - but even medium level parties no longer travel via "Standard" methods, and the idea of an Adept having some undead minions is pretty reasonable.

They're great for trap springing at the very least.

Yes, trap springing....ever thought about how a huge monster accompanying the party will be able to accompany them in a typical humanoid-sized-dungeon (maybe with doors just 6ft high)? A wand of unseen servant does the job much better (or a caster having that spell). Anf at only 15 gp per casting, not 25gp per HD per zombie/skeleton wasted.

- Giacomo

PS @ninjarabbit: have you ever heard about size stacking of unarmed strikes? Just curious to find out...and since you refer to "my monks" better check out next time what kind of damage they deal at level 12 before lying, OK? Thanks.
PPS@Ians: Yes, the adept I think at level 12 has no means to reliably track down and kill hydras for his undead army...

[Solo]

So, Giacomo admits that the hydra zombie does work, but is not contending that the Adept will not be able to find a hydra, or its corpse, to animate.

Well, offhand, I would say that since the Adept has Knowledge (all) as well as Survival, he would know where to find a hydra, unless knowledge skills and survival do not cover that sort of thing?

[Sobolev]

So, Giacomo admits that the hydra zombie does work, but is not contending that the Adept will not be able to find a hydra, or its corpse, to animate.

Well, offhand, I would say that since the Adept has Knowledge (all) as well as Survival, he would know where to find a hydra, unless knowledge skills and survival do not cover that sort of thing?

I would say, offhand, that Adepts get Tongues so perhaps an Adept could speak with some people about where to find them.
I would say, offhand, that Adepts get Commune so perhaps an Adept could SPEAK WITH HIS DEITY OR AGENTS THEREOF about where to find them.
I would say, offhand, that Adepts get Major Creation so perhaps an Adept could make some gems, sell them, and buy a map or a spellcaster to cast a spell to find Hydras for him.
I would say, offhand, that Adepts get Polymorph so perhaps an Adept could be his own damn Hydra.

You know, just offhand.

[Solo]

Seriously, "Giacomo", read the rules. It helps.

[Flay Crimsonwind]

Guys, I am sorry to interrupt the party. But the zombie template only grants what is explicitly mentioned. No mention is made of anything beyond the statistics block and the special abilities.
So no move and full attack for the zombie hydra.

It's not the zombie template granting the ability, it's the base creature, aka the hydra. The template only modifies it as stated, nothing more. It doesn't modify the creatures ability to attack, it only modifies what options the creature has per turn. Which the hydra has a way around. Even so, the hydra was just one option; there are equally potent options that would still trounce the monk.

When trying to prove that A is inferior to B, proving that B is bad doesn't prove that A is better.

[Sir Giacomo]

So, Giacomo admits that the hydra zombie does work, but is not contending that the Adept will not be able to find a hydra, or its corpse, to animate.

Well, offhand, I would say that since the Adept has Knowledge (all) as well as Survival, he would know where to find a hydra, unless knowledge skills and survival do not cover that sort of thing?

I would say, offhand, that Adepts get Tongues so perhaps an Adept could speak with some people about where to find them.

I would say, offhand, that Adepts get Commune so perhaps an Adept could SPEAK WITH HIS DEITY OR AGENTS THEREOF about where to find them.
I would say, offhand, that Adepts get Major Creation so perhaps an Adept could make some gems, sell them, and buy a map or a spellcaster to cast a spell to find Hydras for him.
I would say, offhand, that Adepts get Polymorph so perhaps an Adept could be his own damn Hydra.

You know, just offhand.

Offhand?
- adepts have 2 skill pts/lvl so may not have that high skills to really reliably locate a Hydra in the wilderness. The track feat might help.
- tongues helps you talk to people, but the relevant skill is probably gather information or diplomacy.
- commune is not available to a level 12 adept yet, only at level 16 (when zombies are even less relevant)
- major creation to create temporary gems to pay an npc spellcaster is probably not a good idea.
- polymorph...grants the ability to the adept to turn once per day into a huge slow moving hydra for some minutes, with his low hp (not the zombie's 250hp  ). Again, probably not a good idea.

- Giacomo

[Bastian]

Why are you guys arguing with a troll hellbent on imitating the mega-troll that was Giacomo? Seriously, guys. Do not feed the troll.

Please note that responding to ridiculous claims that he is not a troll is feeding him.

[Sinfire Titan]

- commune is not available to a level 12 adept yet, only at level 16 (when zombies are even less relevant)

I just want to point out how hypocritical you have been: You advocate UMD and partially charged wands and PaO cheese, but when the competition decides to access something slightly above it's level you state that the ability in question is not available. A scroll of Commune is dirt-cheap and requires no skill checks on the Adept's part to use.


And before you even THINK about it, a Monk using PaO is not fair game if the Adept uses a scroll of Commune. Those two situations are miles apart.

[Bastian]

- commune is not available to a level 12 adept yet, only at level 16 (when zombies are even less relevant)

I just want to point out how hypocritical you have been: You advocate UMD and partially charged wands and PaO cheese, but when the competition decides to access something slightly above it's level you state that the ability in question is not available. A scroll of Commune is dirt-cheap and requires no skill checks on the Adept's part to use.


And before you even THINK about it, a Monk using PaO is not fair game if the Adept uses a scroll of Commune. Those two situations are miles apart.

Pointing out their hypocrisy is also feeding the troll.

[Sinfire Titan]

Pointing out their hypocrisy is also feeding the troll.

Stop that. We got the point all ready.

[Sir Giacomo]

- commune is not available to a level 12 adept yet, only at level 16 (when zombies are even less relevant)

I just want to point out how hypocritical you have been: You advocate UMD and partially charged wands and PaO cheese, but when the competition decides to access something slightly above it's level you state that the ability in question is not available. A scroll of Commune is dirt-cheap and requires no skill checks on the Adept's part to use.


And before you even THINK about it, a Monk using PaO is not fair game if the Adept uses a scroll of
Commune. Those two situations are miles apart.

I only propose the use of PaO in comparisons when others do the same or similar "cheese".
And yes, getting a commune scroll to find Hydras is possible. But this then means that the zombie gets even more expensive.

- Giacomo

[Sinfire Titan]

I only propose the use of PaO in comparisons when others do the same or similar "cheese".
And yes, getting a commune scroll to find Hydras is possible. But this then means that the zombie gets even more expensive.

- Giacomo

By "more expensive" you mean a total price of 1,925gp, a price that's relatively trivial even if the Adept has NPC WBL for a 12th level character (27,000gp, which can translate into a potential 14 Hydra Zombies).

[ninjarabbit]

Here's more fun zombies, assuming they were animated in a desecrated altar

Zombie Criosphinx

20d12 + 40 profane +3 from toughness hps (163 hps), 60' fly, pounce, rake 1d6 +5 (+3 str, +2 profane), +18 attack bonus (+10 BAB, +7 str, +2 profane, -1 size), gore attack for 2d6 +9 (+7 str, +2 profane) and 2 claw attacks for 1d6 +5 (+3 str, +2 profane)  and a slam attack for 1d8 +5 damage (+3 str, +2 profane), Base AC 22 (+14 natural, -1 size, -1 dex) and DR 5/slashing

So now the adept has a flying pouncer (kept under the clause that zombies keep all Ex abilites that help in combat) that can serve as a mount for 500 gps.

Or something a little less exotic

Zombie dire lion

16d12 + 36 profane +3 hps (135 hps), improved grab, pounce, rake 1d6 +6 (+4 str, +2 profane), +17 attack bonus (+8 BAB, +8 str, +2 profane, -1 size), 2 claw attacks for 1d6 +10 damage (+8 str, +2 profane), 1 bite for 1d8 +6 damage (+4 str, +2 profane), and slam attack for 1d8 +6 damage (+4 str, +2 profane), Base AC of 17(+7 natural, +1 Dex, -1 AC) and DR 5/slashing

Anadept can have a dire lion for the low low price of 400 gps.

[Sobolev]

I just want to point out I'm not arguing with "Giacomo" to argue with him.  I'm terrified someone will come along, read this thread and actually believe what he is writing further spawning a generation of terrible players.  So I'm just here, trying to create a reasonable thread that's educational for others in the future.

[Bauglir]

The above is my reason for arguing against Jaron's builds as examples of the Class X fallacy, or at least an uneven degree of their application. I don't object to them so much inherently, but I do object to using a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold diplomancer or a Necropolitan poison-user to demonstrate the ways in which an Expert is better than a Monk, while insisting that Skill Prodigy is somehow fallacious. I don't want this degree of hypocrisy to become established protocol on these boards, which is why all my efforts have been devoted to ignoring a Monks class features; if the most important class feature you have is duplicated by a single feat, I think that says as much about how powerful your class is as does somebody taking that feat to emulate your class feature in the first place.

[Sir Giacomo]

I just want to point out I'm not arguing with "Giacomo" to argue with him.  I'm terrified someone will come along, read this thread and actually believe what he is writing further spawning a generation of terrible players.  So I'm just here, trying to create a reasonable thread that's educational for others in the future.

Hey, actually that is also my motivation!  
Only that I have a different view on how rules and the game can be interpreted, and I believe that can help a lot of players looking for ways to avoid broken stuff like animated hydras able to do things they cannot do. I basically intend to prevent a, say, fighter player at level 12 from feeling bad about wanting to play that class when a fellow player with a wizard (or even adept to make him feel even worse, *shudder*) believing he can have an army of undead hydras around doing much more than they should do by the rules (or ignoring the drawbacks of that strategy like costs) is spoiling the fun for the fighter player (you know, class balance and all that).

I feel there is a widerspread ... tendency of interpretation on these boards (and other 3.5. boards) to be as caster-friendly as possible (possibly because most people love to play casters). Typical examples: wbl disregard by item creation, ignoring the costs of spells, ignoring the drawbacks of spells, need to metagame to make some spells work in the best ways and in general what spells really can do (including absurd things like e.g. Solo's idea to squeeze a 30ft tarrasque through a 20ft gate created by the gate spell to defeat it).

But @ninjarabbit: possibly pounce can be interpreted that way...(it is less broken than the "pouncing" hydra zombie, anyway). I am not sure.
Pounce allows to do a full attack even after moving (charging), but if your creature has a drawback that prevents it from ever doing a full attack, I do not know whether that helps.
But even so, the zombie pouncers will have to charge to use their pounce. And they are awfully slow (in particular concerning surprise round and initiative). So the moment an opponent goes first into melee with them, they can no longer charge.

But I'll now have a relaxed look at the CR 12 creatures of the SRD and let you know soon what I think they'll be able to do vs the zombies.

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

The above is my reason for arguing against Jaron's builds as examples of the Class X fallacy, or at least an uneven degree of their application. I don't object to them so much inherently, but I do object to using a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold diplomancer or a Necropolitan poison-user to demonstrate the ways in which an Expert is better than a Monk, while insisting that Skill Prodigy is somehow fallacious. I don't want this degree of hypocrisy to become established protocol on these boards, which is why all my efforts have been devoted to ignoring a Monks class features; if the most important class feature you have is duplicated by a single feat, I think that says as much about how powerful your class is as does somebody taking that feat to emulate your class feature in the first place.

Bauglir, thank you for that comment - because I was starting to get extremely frustrated in that other thread...and this thread appears to be on the brink of going into the same direction. I know you probably do not think a monk is as good a class as I do. Possibly you even think that the adept's spell arsenal is better than anything a monk can muster. Fair enough.
But we appear to be in agreement to avoid double standards when discussing and comparing classes. Thanks for that.

- Giacomo