Author Topic: Azrael  (Read 39646 times)

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betrayor

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #200 on: September 28, 2010, 10:57:53 PM »
And to be on-topic ,
How do you defend against divine splendor?
Yes I know it is a deific ability but you said you have a defense against it.....
So what is it?

Bauglir

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #201 on: September 29, 2010, 12:03:42 AM »

Craft Contingent Spell only has rules for things that affect you. So no, you can't have one that triggers on Wishporting or on a sphere of annihilation dropped into a Well of Many Worlds, because you aren't your demiplane or every sphere of annihilation or Well of Many Worlds in the multiverse.

Quote from: d20 SRD
You can place another spell upon your person so that it comes into effect under some condition you dictate when casting contingency. The contingency spell and the companion spell are cast at the same time. The 10-minute casting time is the minimum total for both castings; if the companion spell has a casting time longer than 10 minutes, use that instead.

The spell to be brought into effect by the contingency must be one that affects your person and be of a spell level no higher than one-third your caster level (rounded down, maximum 6th level).

Nowhere does it say that I couldn't allow it to trigger when someone wishports in...I think you may have misread the part about "must be a spell that affects your person (i.e. a personal spell, which timestop is)." However, I would also like to note that nowhere in my 3.5 players handbook does it say "maximum 6th level." Which means either one of two things, I have a misprinted, earlier version of the 3.5 players handbook, or the SRD is wrong...either way craft contingent spell allows you to have up to 9th level spells.

Ok, I think you're not seeing what I'm referencing in Craft Contingent Spell; it says "  Triggers for contingent spells are usually events that happen to the bearer of the spell, and can include death, contracting disease, exposure to a breath weapon or to energy damage, falling, exposure to poison, exposure to a dangerous environment (trapped by fire, plunged underwater, and so forth), succumbing to sleep or fear effects, gaining negative levels, or being rendered helpless, deafened, or blinded." That's all. There are no rules for things that do not happen to the bearer of the spell. And yes, you have a misprint, because I'm looking at my PHB and it includes the note about maximums; can anyone else back me up on this so it's not just my word against Azrael's?


Quote
If your veils are immune to Disjunction, the Hive members are bringing Fine Tower Shields (which they can Wish into existence) because those grant total cover to their user and, by the same reasoning as your spell effects being protected by themselves, the Tower Shields have total cover as well. All non-targeted effects can no longer affect the HIVE. Which would also block his AMF you mention below, so I presume you don't actually want this to work. Number of veils is irrelevant; the HIVE generates an actually infinite number of members in a turn, and each can pull this trick.

I knew someone would mention the ol'tower shield trick one of these days. I'm sure there is a damaging aura (probably sonic) that I can have active on myself and widen widen widen until it would at least match the area of my AMF, in which case the tower shields (since any magical abilities of theirs will be suppressed) should easily be destroyed...also I hope you don't think a tower shield could get through the veils? The AMF yes, but the veils would destroy them immediately, no save.

Any suggestions on that damaging aura...it obviously has to be one that would deal damage as soon as they enter...I'm sure there's something out there.

It doesn't matter if you deal damage with an aura; it doesn't have LoE to the tower shield, and the only exception to total cover with a tower shield is the bit about targeting. Likewise your AMF has no LoE to the tower shield, because it's part of my equipment, so it retains its special qualities (if any; it doesn't need any, and in fact it's more efficient just to Wish thousands into existence at once). Now, you can DEFINITELY argue that this is a fucking retarded interpretation of the rules, and I'd agree with you. It's just that it's the same interpretation that would make your veils immune to disjunction, which is why I brought up the example; I'm trying to get us to agree on a dodgy issue which you mentioned as a possibility (you didn't endorse it wholeheartedly, and I thank you for that, I'm just trying to make the whole issue a definite conclusion). At any rate, the tower shields exist only to let the HIVE members do whatever they want until they start taking their actions, not to get through your veils' disjunction does that, or the specific spells that take down the layers.

Quote

They get plenty of actions; each member of the swarm is aware of everything every other member is, which means only one member needs to detect Azrael for the others to attack effectively. Remember, since it's fully capable of doing so, the HIVE is Wishporting an infinite number of vermin in for every wave. And it can do so for an arbitrarily large number of waves within a single round. Each wave has its first member cast True Seeing on itself and the rest drop an infinite number of Disjunctions on Azrael.

Yes but can they "share senses?" They still need to be able to target him...awareness isn't the same as 'that creature being able to use anther's senses for the purpose of resolving LoS and LoE.'

Does it matter? They're aware of where Azrael is, and Disjunction is an area effect so they don't NEED to target him. And LoE is EASILY taken care of by the fact that there are an infinite number of vermin standing right next to the one with senses.
Also I think it goes something like this...

Quote
1. A member of the swarm enters the 300ft mark, thus Azrael becomes aware of them, initiative is rolled, Azrael wins initiative (an assumption, but im pretty sure his 80ish initiative beats theirs).

Question: does Mind Blank stop Foresight? If so, Azrael never becomes aware of them because this all happens on the HIVE's surprise round. However, I don't think it does, so ok. I don't really care.

Quote
2. They have foresight so they all activate their immediate actions thus gaining infinite actions (how do they do this btw...I don't believe anyone explained how they actually gain infinite actions); Azrael cannot stop this.

3. They approach him and make it inside his AMF, however, at that moment all their infinite actions (I assume) will be nullified, including any contingencies they might have.

Here's where it falls apart. They do not approach. They appear right next to Azrael. That's where they start upon Wishporting in. And they have infinite actions because there are an infinite number of them, which isn't exactly an AMF-negatable effect.

Quote
4. Azrael's contingency activates because someone made it inside his field.

5. Since they no longer have infinite actions, and used up their immediate action for the turn Azrael completes his contingency and casts time stop. Within his time stop he first uses CoP to learn how many actions he will need to generate in order to beat them (lets face it, infinite is hypothetical, they have to stop generating actions at some point, which gives them x number of actions, if Azrael knows how many actions they have generated then he can generate X . X actions). Azrael then proceeds to generate that many actions, comes out of his time stop, and kills them all...all of them...everywhere...in all of existance...so they cannot generate any more on the next turn.

No, they don't have to use a finite number of actions. Actually, since they have infinitely many immediate actions and infinitely many spell slots from which to cast Greater Celerity, they just automatically get to go before he gets to do anything, and they obliterate him.

Quote
1. Azrael has an emanation that will destroy their tower shields (I think this is plausable, given the amount of spells out there, there has to be something...)

2. The H.I.V.E. did not, prior to battle, CoP how many actions they would need to generate in order to win the battle. If they did not Azrael does indeed beat H.I.V.E. If they did, it results in a paradox in which the only possible solution is a stalemate...and even so much as stalemating the H.I.V.E. isn't something just any Wizard can do.

I agree to the first, because arguing that a LoE-blocking effect protects itself as well is utterly ridiculous. Quite frankly, tower shields were never a serious argument (neither were the veils protecting themselves, I hope). As for the second, it doesn't need to, it just uses infinite actions. Seriously, it can just do that. It has a literally infinite number of vermin after its first round of existence. Each iteration of the HIVE is generated on the same turn the prior iteration was, and has even more actions and spells with which to generate the next iteration than did its progenitor iteration. Because it has more actions with every iteration, it can go through an infinite sequence of iterations within a finite timespan, and so after 1 round it has an infinite number of members.


Quote

The HIVE has an infinity of members on the instant of its creation. Azrael does not. Azrael has an arbitrarily large number of members at any given round, because unless I'm missing something, he doesn't gain more actions every iteration from new units than he expended creating them. So, actually, there are more units of the HIVE than there are of Azrael.

First of all, I thought the H.I.V.E. had like 4500 members or something, with the ability to gain exponentially more with respawning. Second of all Azrael can have them all the instant of his creation if he wanted to...it would be the first thing Azrael does after hes finished fusing all of his believers because he can do it all in another time-stream.

Its first iteration has 4500, but all that respawning happens in the same turn as it was created. That very instant. There is a vertical line in the graph of "number of members of the HIVE" vs time.


Quote
So at that point it just becomes an argument about who existed first as a char...In fact Azrael basically forces H.I.V.E. to have existed before him in order to beat him because, if they do not, his prestidigitation contingency goes off as soon as someone tries to CoP information about him or anything he has created...read the 'inevitable defeat' section in my char notes (which, btw, did exist before any of these conversations began).

If that's the case, then it's more reasonable to assume the HIVE did exist first, since it can happen 11 levels earlier (same reasoning as Omniscificer vs PunPun before PunPun was level 1). Honestly, any FullCaster20 with all his defenses up can't be killed except by somebody killing him before those defenses went up, because it's trivial to get infinite actions (Example: Celerity yourself into Shapechange. Shapechange lets you change shape as a free action; turn into a Chronotyryn, which has Dual Actions and grants you Sorc spellcasting; cast Sanctum Greater Arcane Fusion, using your Chronotyryn 6th level spell slots with Versatile Spellcaster to get the slots without spending any real ones, and just shove Celerity into both slots. Whenever you run out of Chronotyryn slots, shapechange into a DIFFERENT Chronotyryn. That's just off the top of my head and I'm sure others can come up with better ideas. You don't actually need everything I just outlined; just an infinite supply of spell slots and either Dual Actions or Greater Arcane Fusion will be enough to keep things going for the rest of ever). Once you have infinite actions, you can force a stalemate just by never giving your opponent the opportunity to actually do anything.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #202 on: September 29, 2010, 12:13:31 AM »
The spell contingency is limited to 6th level and lower spells.

The craft contingent spell feat is not.
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Azrael

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #203 on: September 29, 2010, 12:38:08 AM »
And to be on-topic ,
How do you defend against divine splendor?
Yes I know it is a deific ability but you said you have a defense against it.....
So what is it?

I dunno, its a death effect isn't it? So hes immune...either that or he just never approaches within 200 ft of a deity, it does specify the mortal has to approach, perhaps nothing will happen if the deity approaches me...plus my veils should also block LoE.



Ok, I think you're not seeing what I'm referencing in Craft Contingent Spell; it says "  Triggers for contingent spells are usually events that happen to the bearer of the spell, and can include death, contracting disease, exposure to a breath weapon or to energy damage, falling, exposure to poison, exposure to a dangerous environment (trapped by fire, plunged underwater, and so forth), succumbing to sleep or fear effects, gaining negative levels, or being rendered helpless, deafened, or blinded." That's all. There are no rules for things that do not happen to the bearer of the spell. And yes, you have a misprint, because I'm looking at my PHB and it includes the note about maximums; can anyone else back me up on this so it's not just my word against Azrael's?

What book are you reading? I'm reading the entry in Complete Arcane...did it get reprinted in another source? Or are you reading the earlier source? That's a question we need to answer since it basically determines if I can beat H.I.V.E. or just stalemate them.


It doesn't matter if you deal damage with an aura; it doesn't have LoE to the tower shield, and the only exception to total cover with a tower shield is the bit about targeting. Likewise your AMF has no LoE to the tower shield, because it's part of my equipment, so it retains its special qualities (if any; it doesn't need any, and in fact it's more efficient just to Wish thousands into existence at once). Now, you can DEFINITELY argue that this is a fucking retarded interpretation of the rules, and I'd agree with you. It's just that it's the same interpretation that would make your veils immune to disjunction, which is why I brought up the example; I'm trying to get us to agree on a dodgy issue which you mentioned as a possibility (you didn't endorse it wholeheartedly, and I thank you for that, I'm just trying to make the whole issue a definite conclusion). At any rate, the tower shields exist only to let the HIVE members do whatever they want until they start taking their actions, not to get through your veils' disjunction does that, or the specific spells that take down the layers.

Ummm, what interpretation are you reading...how does an emanation which exists between me and the tower shield not effect the tower shield? I agree (sort of, I mean, I know this is something that has been argued to death; whether or not a tower shield can block an emanation) that the tower shield will block the AMF from affecting you, but it should still affect the tower shield...this is less of a stretch than my veils blocking a MDJ...since it does explicitly state "all effects."


Does it matter? They're aware of where Azrael is, and Disjunction is an area effect so they don't NEED to target him. And LoE is EASILY taken care of by the fact that there are an infinite number of vermin standing right next to the one with senses.

Next to them in the AMF you mean...also, do they all have initiate of mystra...cause they need to all be at least 5th level clerics for that to happen...

Also, MDJ does have an area (40ft I believe), they need to know where to place it in order to get him...and since AMF is invisible they cant calculate where the center of it is...or can they?


I agree to the first, because arguing that a LoE-blocking effect protects itself as well is utterly ridiculous. Quite frankly, tower shields were never a serious argument (neither were the veils protecting themselves, I hope). As for the second, it doesn't need to, it just uses infinite actions. Seriously, it can just do that. It has a literally infinite number of vermin after its first round of existence. Each iteration of the HIVE is generated on the same turn the prior iteration was, and has even more actions and spells with which to generate the next iteration than did its progenitor iteration. Because it has more actions with every iteration, it can go through an infinite sequence of iterations within a finite timespan, and so after 1 round it has an infinite number of members.


As Kell said...we are arguing infinite vs infinite...we can both gain infinite actions...Azrael also has infinite Ice Assassins at the moment of his creation...so...

and btw, as I said before, infinite doesn't exist...it has to stop somewhere, and all Azrael has to do is CoP how many actions he needs to gain in order to win...and if H.I.V.E. did the same thing prior to battle then Azrael's contingency would have gone off...I'm telling you man, its a stalemate based on a paradox.

If that's the case, then it's more reasonable to assume the HIVE did exist first, since it can happen 11 levels earlier (same reasoning as Omniscificer vs PunPun before PunPun was level 1). Honestly, any FullCaster20 with all his defenses up can't be killed except by somebody killing him before those defenses went up, because it's trivial to get infinite actions (Example: Celerity yourself into Shapechange. Shapechange lets you change shape as a free action; turn into a Chronotyryn, which has Dual Actions and grants you Sorc spellcasting; cast Sanctum Greater Arcane Fusion, using your Chronotyryn 6th level spell slots with Versatile Spellcaster to get the slots without spending any real ones, and just shove Celerity into both slots. Whenever you run out of Chronotyryn slots, shapechange into a DIFFERENT Chronotyryn. That's just off the top of my head and I'm sure others can come up with better ideas. You don't actually need everything I just outlined; just an infinite supply of spell slots and either Dual Actions or Greater Arcane Fusion will be enough to keep things going for the rest of ever). Once you have infinite actions, you can force a stalemate just by never giving your opponent the opportunity to actually do anything.

That's awful logic...(wait...was that really the only reason Omni existed before Pun?...that's retarded...any newb to D&D could say that about their char) just because they can do the same thing at a lower level only means that our leveling up would have had to happen simultaneously...Either Azrael or the H.I.V.E. could have existed a millennium before the other.

While I am aware other 20th level casters are able to gain infinite actions and thus kill everyone in the multiverse before someone has a chance to rise up against them -because that's what they would have to do- its not as if their infinite actions can be used their entire life...they all have to be used in one round of real time. Any argument stating 'I gain infinite actions and kill everyone in the multiverse' is stupid...and the thing that sets Azrael apart from them is that he doesn't have to rely on such things, they do (the killing everyone in order to be all powerful, not the infinite actions).


Also, not to bash your chronotryn thing...but you can only take a free action on your turn...not along with an immediate action (since it isn't technically your turn)...sorry, your infinite actions doesn't work :(
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 12:49:16 AM by Azrael »

Bozwevial

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #204 on: September 29, 2010, 12:43:28 AM »
The entry in Complete Arcane is exactly as Bauglir has posted. It's on page 139, right-hand column, first full paragraph. The text of the feat references this entry by saying "See Contingent Spells, page 139, for more information."

Azrael

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #205 on: September 29, 2010, 12:53:20 AM »
Ohhhhh, I never saw that lol...but no matter

It says "usually," it says nothing about it having to be something that happens to the wearer. i.e. its just giving suggestions, re-read it, no where does it say it "MUST" be something that happens to the wearer




YAY! Whew, for a second there I was worried...I guess I do get wishporting defenses after all :D

betrayor

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #206 on: September 29, 2010, 01:05:04 AM »
Divine splendor is not a death effect.....

I think that in this case if the god comes so near to Azrael  then he is in trouble.....

Of course you could easily avoid it by using the Ice assansin trick to gain at least divine rank 0.....


Bauglir

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #207 on: September 29, 2010, 02:35:25 AM »
Ohhhhh, I never saw that lol...but no matter

It says "usually," it says nothing about it having to be something that happens to the wearer. i.e. its just giving suggestions, re-read it, no where does it say it "MUST" be something that happens to the wearer




YAY! Whew, for a second there I was worried...I guess I do get wishporting defenses after all :D

I DID address that. If you're willing to resort to the sort of stretching optimization you originally claimed Azrael didn't need, I can be content with the knowledge that you had to back down on at least one aspect of his character and leave it at that. That's really all I've been after; an admission that Azrael is not unbeatable given a strictly RAW application of the rules. If you're good with that, then I don't really see a need to continue arguing. We cool, or do I need to type out another wall of text?
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Azrael

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #208 on: September 29, 2010, 03:27:54 AM »
Not really...I mean its giving an example...the feat never says explicitly that it must be contingent upon something that will affect you. It says usually...do I need to pull out the dictionary and define usually? Usually clearly means 'not always,' and actually, by definition insinuates that there is another alternative...otherwise it would say something like "always" or "must."

Maybe some other things about Azrael are up to semi-interpretation but I don't think this is one of them...is that seriously all you're after...that's rather...I really don't know what to call it...you wont be content unless I personally back down on something?...this isn't even about my character anymore, this is about me...this needs to stop...I'm trying to make it about the character and so far both pieces of advice I (humbly) asked for haven't even been considered...and if he isn't unbeatable by RAW then help me make him unbeatable...that's what Kell has been doing this whole time, and hes the only one. Its almost as if you cannot stand knowing that I alone was able to make an unbeatable character (not saying that I necessarily did) and that pisses you off because why?...you weren't able to?...a lowly 392 post guy got there where 1000+ people like yourself failed?...honestly, I'm just guessing here. However, I think by now (and especially after the statement you just made) you have made it obvious you've got a personal vendetta against me.

Maybe the char isn't quite all powerful now, but if he isn't I'm fairly certain he can be with a few good suggestions (without adding divine ranks), and that's all I was originally after. I worked a long fucking time on this character and I would hate to see him lost to obscurity. I want him to be up there with the rest of the CO characters, and I think hes both capable and worthy of that.



I know you may think I was being arrogant but I was only responding the the arrogance of fallen angle's original comment. As I said before I was quite humble up until he did 3 things.

1. Had the nerve to think he could beat my char with a measly artificer lich that relied upon magic items for his defense.

2. Had the audacity to play out the battle himself, assuming what actions Azrael would take, without even asking me.

3. Had the arrogance to then insinuate that his artificer could beat Pun-Pun...

Now I was aware of Fallen Angle before this comment. I had read the little build he calls Shifty and I thought 2 things...wow, this guy is ridiculously weak compared to Azrael, and not only does he use his shape changing abilities inefficiently he wasn't even able to do a simple thing like get full immunity to damage with one of the forms (all it takes is 3 spells and you don't even need to be a MT; shapechange into troll, energy immunity (fire, acid), veil of undeath...and since veil and shapechange are 10 min/level and energy immunity is 24 hours any wiz/sorc with a few greater extend rods can have them up all day). The second thing that bothered me was he made the claim that the master transmogrifist was one of the best classes in the game and shame on us BGers for overlooking it...yet for some reason, unlike with Azrael, no one called him out on his hubris...I wonder why that is...

In any case, he pissed me off, and I wasn't going to let a little brat like that think he could even come close to besting this character.

Anyway, that's when all of this started...if he had not made such a comment perhaps we would have made more constructive progress with Azrael by now.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 03:45:30 AM by Azrael »

fallen-angle

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #209 on: September 29, 2010, 06:33:03 AM »
Wow. This is still going huh? Seems the OP is really angry at me for some reason. I will perpetuate this, it'll be great.

Quote
Now I was aware of Fallen Angle before this comment. I had read the little build he calls Shifty and I thought 2 things...wow, this guy is ridiculously weak compared to Azrael, and not only does he use his shape changing abilities inefficiently he wasn't even able to do a simple thing like get full immunity to damage with one of the forms (all it takes is 3 spells and you don't even need to be a MT; shapechange into troll, energy immunity (fire, acid), veil of undeath...and since veil and shapechange are 10 min/level and energy immunity is 24 hours any wiz/sorc with a few greater extend rods can have them up all day). The second thing that bothered me was he made the claim that the master transmogrifist was one of the best classes in the game and shame on us BGers for overlooking it...yet for some reason, unlike with Azrael, no one called him out on his hubris...I wonder why that is...

Wow. Really? This is where you are going? Attacking a completely different post? Okay. Thanks for the publicity I guess.

Lets start. You are right, Azrael can beat Shifty. What a shock. It is almost as though Shifty was made to be at a totally different power level. Or perhaps playable in an actual game. You are right about not getting full immunity, how astute, it is clear people should not play other classes or bring up different possible tactics.

On the note of MTrans being a great class. It is. Mostly as a result of its pinnacle ability to fuse EX abilities from different creatures. Is it a beholdermage? no. Ur Priest. Still no. But it is an awesome power and for focused shapeshifters it is really neat and has obvious potential to break the system. I know, you can gain that power other ways, fusion, and manipulate form, etc. Very good of you to know that. But most DMs aren't going to allow such tricks, they are too strong.

Indeed. As need as Azrael might be. Most DMs wont allow an unbeatable kill all character into their game. The Min-Max forums are home to many players who want to see playable builds. Perhaps you should repost it in the "You break it, you buy it" subforum. The one explicitly intended for characters that cannot be played.

Now on the note of my Hubris. I also included an entire bit where I point out that Druids are equal or better shifters 90% of the time, and that the Planar Shepard is on par or better 80% of the time. I also included in each posts requests for comments and criticism. Requests! Imagine that. Asking people to help you make something better. If you want to attack my build please do so, but do it in the thread ABOUT my build. I'd love to discuss the merits of the class and get 11 pages of debate and stay on the front page for a month. That'd be great! Just don't coop't your own post, that is silly.

But what does this have to do with Azrael? I mean, seriously? Do you think these people care that you appear not to like me? I doubt they care. Hell, I don't even care. I mean, you've made it abundantly obvious that you can get very angry, and that you can tell people that they die because you have magic. Outside that? Not much.
_________________________________________________

Now for some genuine advice on your post. How about redoing the first post. Modify it so that everything is better laid out. Currently it is kind of a wall of text, the sort that a journalist would weep to see. Add explanations in spoiler tags, a better structure for the progression. It is very very clear from the last 10 pages that people had some trouble finding where you listed immunities or contingencies, etc. etc.

Now maybe instead of telling people that they didn't read hard enough you could actually do something about it! Fancy that.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 06:38:51 AM by fallen-angle »
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #210 on: September 29, 2010, 06:36:51 AM »
Time for me to whip out stupid RAW.

All your abilities, items, et cetera, are owned by you.  Thus, they are all your possessions.

I am have a Dracanite Helm, and am thus protected from all forms of possession.  Thus, I can ignore everything you own or are carrying around.  So I just waltz on through your AMFs, keep acting through your celerities, laugh off your contingent effects, and merrily make my way wherever I want to go.  Your arcane power, your facilities of reason - anything you possess I am protected against.

If you had vow of poverty, you might have stood a chance, but your actions are far from exalted.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 06:38:43 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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fallen-angle

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #211 on: September 29, 2010, 06:40:33 AM »
Time for me to whip out stupid RAW.

All your abilities, items, et cetera, are owned by you.  Thus, they are all your possessions.

I am have a Dracanite Helm, and am thus protected from all forms of possession.  Thus, I can ignore everything you own or are carrying around.  So I just waltz on through your AMFs, keep acting through your celerities, laugh off your contingent effects, and merrily make my way wherever I want to go.  Your arcane power, your facilities of reason - anything you possess I am protected against.

If you had vow of poverty, you might have stood a chance, but your actions are far from exalted.

Trolling. Wonderful.

If this is what this is coming too would an admin please close this? There are posts more deserving of the top spot on the front page than this.
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KellKheraptis

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #212 on: September 29, 2010, 08:32:45 AM »
Time for me to whip out stupid RAW.

All your abilities, items, et cetera, are owned by you.  Thus, they are all your possessions.

I am have a Dracanite Helm, and am thus protected from all forms of possession.  Thus, I can ignore everything you own or are carrying around.  So I just waltz on through your AMFs, keep acting through your celerities, laugh off your contingent effects, and merrily make my way wherever I want to go.  Your arcane power, your facilities of reason - anything you possess I am protected against.

If you had vow of poverty, you might have stood a chance, but your actions are far from exalted.

Trolling. Wonderful.

If this is what this is coming too would an admin please close this? There are posts more deserving of the top spot on the front page than this.

No, merely pointing out stupidly worded, yet utterly legal rules.  (S)he is the mad linguist after all...
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Agita

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #213 on: September 29, 2010, 08:55:58 AM »
In that vein... remember the argument about Protection from Evil stopping existence?
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

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Bozwevial

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #214 on: September 29, 2010, 12:04:32 PM »
The entire point of this thread is to try and defeat Azrael, if only so you can further refine him. If you had started this thread and said, "Hey guys, here's a build I've been working on, what do you guys think I can do to make it better?" then no one would have started an argument. But you didn't. Instead:

Quote
1. Had the nerve to think he could beat my char with a measly artificer lich that relied upon magic items for his defense.

2. Had the audacity to play out the battle himself, assuming what actions Azrael would take, without even asking me.

3. Had the arrogance to then insinuate that his artificer could beat Pun-Pun...

Quote
In any case, he pissed me off, and I wasn't going to let a little brat like that think he could even come close to besting this character.

Is it any wonder, with that kind of attitude, that this thread has gone downhill like this?

bearsarebrown

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #215 on: September 29, 2010, 01:46:38 PM »
In that vein... remember the argument about Protection from Evil stopping existence?
explain

Azrael

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #216 on: September 29, 2010, 09:45:48 PM »
The entire point of this thread is to try and defeat Azrael, if only so you can further refine him. If you had started this thread and said, "Hey guys, here's a build I've been working on, what do you guys think I can do to make it better?" then no one would have started an argument. But you didn't. Instead:

Quote
1. Had the nerve to think he could beat my char with a measly artificer lich that relied upon magic items for his defense.

2. Had the audacity to play out the battle himself, assuming what actions Azrael would take, without even asking me.

3. Had the arrogance to then insinuate that his artificer could beat Pun-Pun...

Quote
In any case, he pissed me off, and I wasn't going to let a little brat like that think he could even come close to besting this character.

Is it any wonder, with that kind of attitude, that this thread has gone downhill like this?

Yes, everything should be blamed on me...I perpetuated it, I agree, but I also tried to stop it...which didn't work. Just remember, it takes two to argue :)

The original request was to see him, so I posted him. There was no other intention...now I assumed that people would both attack him and suggest ways to improve him, so far (with the exception of Kell, which was mostly in defense to the attacks) only the former has occurred...excuse me for assuming there was benevolence as well as malevolence on these boards (and don't give me the quote about assuming). As a natural response to your attacks I was forced to defend him. As I have said many times any nastiness out of me only came as a response to people's comments...go ahead, see for yourself.

Now for some genuine advice on your post. How about redoing the first post. Modify it so that everything is better laid out. Currently it is kind of a wall of text, the sort that a journalist would weep to see. Add explanations in spoiler tags, a better structure for the progression. It is very very clear from the last 10 pages that people had some trouble finding where you listed immunities or contingencies, etc. etc.

Now maybe instead of telling people that they didn't read hard enough you could actually do something about it! Fancy that.


The original word document is beautifully organized (at least to me it is). However when transferring it over to the boards it lost its formatting. I do not profess to be an expert at utilizing this forum's tools. If there is a way to keep the original formatting or just upload the word file I will gladly do so...still, its not really an excuse (its like the senators complaining that the health care bill was too long to read; THATS YOUR FUCKING JOB BITCHES!! Do I complain that I have to read 400 pages a week in grad school, NO! Seriously, hearing them complain about such an issue has me thoroughly convinced our government does nothing but sit on their lazy asses 23 hours out of the day...but I digress), Kell seemed to understand it just fine; perhaps because (as I suspect) he actually read the whole thing. You've already proven that (at least back then) you had not read the character because if you did you would have seen that he didn't even have and MDJs prepared, and thus, wouldn't have attempted to use them in your argument. I wonder how many others just glanced over it.

But, if you'll help me, Ill try and re-post him...but only after a few things are clarified.

1. Does everyone agree I'm right about the craft contingent spell...I mean, I think I've proved it beyond a shadow of a reasonable doubt, and if that's good enough for certain states to sentence a human being to death (not saying that's my belief), its fine with me.

2. Please comment about the bloodwind issue...I would very much like to know if I can have unlimited reach...and perhaps combine with a few spells that may grant me things like unlimited AoO for a round (if there is such a spell), etc.

3. Any ideas for the spell that would emanate from him and destroy the tower shields...its apparently important.

bearsarebrown

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #217 on: September 29, 2010, 09:59:21 PM »
Bloodwind turns your Natural Attacks into ranged attacks. It doesn't increase Reach, it grants a Range.

Azrael

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #218 on: September 29, 2010, 10:09:42 PM »
I may have misread it, or read another version...there's like five.

In any case, could it give me unlimited range if you apply empower x number of times to it?

bearsarebrown

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #219 on: September 29, 2010, 10:13:16 PM »
No. Because you don't have unlimited actions. You can make it arbitrarily large though. You can do this with pretty much any spell that grants a blasting ability. Like Stormrage.