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The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : Azrael July 16, 2010, 07:48:25 PM

: Azrael
: Azrael July 16, 2010, 07:48:25 PM
Its been a while since I was asked to post my signature character. I had to do a few updates before I felt comfortable posting him but due to a recent upcoming challenge (this player doesn't think I can defeat a neutronium golem...ill defeat 7) I was inspired to finally finish him.

Therefore, here he finally is, for all of those who were curious and still remember...this is what happens when you abuse thrallherds, metaminds, and fusion.






AZRAEL



Azrael - Elan Shaper 10/Thrallherd 10.

2 Thralls
Armisael - Kalashtar Egoist 7, Thrallherd 10.
Tabris - Human Wizard 9, Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil 7, Archmage 1.

2 Thralls
   Sandalphon - Kalashtar Seer 6, Thrallherd 10.
   Sachiel - Kalashtar Telepath 5, Thrallherd 10.

4 Thralls
   Israfel - Human Nomad 5, Metamind 10.
Bardiel - Human Marshall 1, Sorcerer 5, Ur-Priest 2, Dweomerkeeper 6.
Shamshel – Human Wizard 5, Incantrix 9.
Ramiel – Human Factotum 13.

Believers
6th Level (8) – Human Cleric of Mystra, Human Artificer, Human Warblade, Human Swordsage, Human Factotum x3, Human Rouge.
5th Level (8) – Human Wizard (Conjurer), Human Soulknife, Human Psion (Nomad), Human Psion (Telepath) x2, Human Factotum x3.
4th Level (16) – Human Wizard, Human Sorcerer, Human Paladin, Human Factotum x13.
3rd Level (28) – Human Hexblade, Human Swashbuckler, Githzerai Monk, Human Factotum x25.
2nd Level (52) – Human Ninja, Human Fighter x50, Dromite Psion.
1st Level (540) – Human Marshall x14, Human Warmage, Halfling Druid, Human Psion (Seer) x2, Human Ardent x15, Human Sorcerer, Half-Orc Fighter, Gnome Wizard, Duskling Incarnate, Human Wu Jen, Human Clerics (each has undeath domain and another which covers every domain choice at least once) x502.

   *Note: All thralls and believers are fused into one being.
*Note: All thralls and believers are assumed to begin with an 18 in primary stat (before   racial adjustments) and 14 constitution on average.



STATS

Str: 31     Dex: 39     Con: 31     Int: 36     Wis: 31     Cha: 35

Hit Points: Current – 9,009; Normal – 8,709

Power Points: 1376

Inspiration Points: 144

Luck Rerolls: 21/day

AC (with family domain power only applied once): 2204 (10 base, 14 dexterity, 33 armor, 18 shield, 18 enhancement (thicken skin), 18 insight (precognition defensive), 5 natural armor, 2053 deflection, 10 ninja, 10 swordsage, 10 balance domain, +4 dodge (family domain), +1 dodge (haste)).
Flat: 2137 Touch: 2127
AC (with family domain power stacking): Googolplex
Flat Footed: 2137 Touch: Googolplex

Init: +67 (+14 dex, +4 improved initiative, +4 hummingbird familiar, +5 nerveskitter, +2 quick to act, +2 time mantle, +10 yondalla’s sense, +2 belt of battle, +12 marshal aura, +2 quick reconnoiter, +10 insightful divination).

Speed: 110ft (30 base, +30 expeditious retreat, +10 celerity domain, +10 freedom mantle (when psionically focused), +20 duskling racial ability, +10 divine vigor).

Fort:  +2143 (7 base, 10 constitution, 2053 resistance (divine companion’s shielding), 5 sacred (dastanas), 12 luck (mysticism domain), 2 feat, 18 insight (precognition defensive), 12 divine grace, 12 arcane resistance, 12 marshal aura).
Ref:  +2164 (9 base, 14 dexterity, 2053 resistance (divine companion’s shielding), 5 sacred (dastanas), 12 luck (mysticism domain), 2 feat, 18 insight (precognition defensive), 12 divine grace, 12 arcane resistance, 12 marshal aura, 13 battle clarity, 1 grace, 1 dodge).
Will:  +2151 (14 base, 10 wisdom, 2053 resistance (divine companion’s shielding), 5 sacred (dastanas), 12 luck (mysticism domain), 2 feat, 18 insight (precognition defensive), 12 divine grace, 12 arcane resistance, 12 marshal aura, +2 ki power, -1 madness domain).

BAB: +20/+15/+10/+5
Attacks: (+20 base, + 6 luck, + 18 insight) melee touch +55/+55/+55+50/+45/+40 1d6 + 1060 (psychic scimitar); 40ft range (290ft) or melee touch +58/+58/+53/+48/+43 1083 (thunderlance); 70ft range, or melee touch +54/+54/+54/+49/+44/+39 1d8 + 1059 (mind blade); 40 ft range or melee touch +2066 (x3) +1064 damage (each) (toothed tentacle); 70ft range or ranged touch +58 (varies).

   *Note: All stats were increased by +5 by casting 30 wish spells as supernatural spells.
   *Note: Some stats may be higher than base 18 because of racial modifiers.

SKILLS

Appraise +48(20), Autohypnosis +45(20), Balance +51(20), Bluff +52(23), Climb +42(17), Concentration +50(23), Decipher Script +48(20), Diplomacy +58(23), Disable Device +44(16), Disguise +50(23), Escape Artist +45(16), Forgery +46(16), Gather Information +50(19), Handle Animal +44(17), Heal +45(20), Hide +45(16), Intimidate +47(16), Jump +44(17), Knowledge (arcana) +51(23), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) +51(23), Knowledge (dungeoneering) +51(23), Knowledge (geography) +51(23), Knowledge (history) +51(23), Knowledge (local) +51(23), Knowledge (nature) +55(23), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +51(23), Knowledge (psionics) +51(23), Knowledge (religion) +51(23), Knowledge (the planes) +51(23), Listen +46(19), Martial Lore +44(16), Move Silently +45(16), Open Lock +45(16), Psicraft +51(23), Ride +48(17), Search +46(16), Sense Motive +50(23), Sleight of Hand +49(16), Spellcraft +64(20), Spot +46(19), Survival +44(17), Swim +42(17), Tumble +47(16), Use Magic Device +47(16), Use Psionic Device +50(23), Use Rope +47(16).

Azrael knows all the skill tricks.

   *Note: Skill ranks are in ().
FEATS

Azrael – Inquisitor, Maximize Power, Psionic Meditation, Expanded Knowledge (mindlink), Quicken Power, Linked Power, Azure Talent, Psycarnum Infusion, Expanded Knowledge (schism), Practiced Manifester.

Armisael – Inquisitor, Transdimensional Power, Delay Power, Widen Power, Twin Power, Burrowing Power, Split Psionic Ray, Extend Power.

Tabris – Scribe Scroll, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus (Abjuration), Spell Focus (Evocation), Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration),  Extraordinary Spell Aim, Still Spell, Silent Spell.

Sandalphon – Inquisitor, Chain Power, Empower Power, Enlarge Power, Opportunity Power, Talented, Unconditional Power, Overchannel Power.

Sachiel – Inquisitor, Craft Dorjie, Craft Psionic Arms and Armor, Craft Cognizance Crystal, Craft Psicrown, Craft Psionic Construct, Craft Universal Item, Scribe Tattoo.

Israfel – Psicrystal Affinity, Psicrystal Containment, Psionic Mastery, Mental Juggernaut, Expanded Knowledge (astral construct), Boost Construct x4.

Bardiel – Skill Focus (diplomacy), Spell Focus (evil), Iron Will, Craft Wondrous Item, Heroic Destiny, Protected Destiny, Fearless Destiny.

Shamshel – Scribe Scroll, Envelope the Wall, Maximize Spell, Irresistible Spell, Invisible Spell, Deceptive Spell, Quicken Spell, Heighten Spell, Improved Counterspell, Improved Initiative, Reactive Counterspell.

Ramiel – Improved Initiative, Danger Sense, Lucky Start, Tempting Fate, Dumb Luck, Survivors Luck.

All Believers (2002) – Initiate of Mystra, Divine Defiance, Divine Countermagic, Spellfire Wielder, Weapon Focus (mind blade), Hidden Talent , Speed of Thought, Combat Reflexes, Abberant Blood, Inhuman Reach, Trap Sensitivity, Stand Still, Willing Deformity, Deformity Tall, Great Fortitude, Eschew Materials, Empower Spell, Weapon Finesse, Two Weapon Fighting, Lightning Reflexes, Spirit Sense, Pure Soul, Font of Life, Trickery Domain, Yondalla’s Sense, Sudden Maximize, Sudden Empower, Sudden Extend, Sudden Quicken, Sudden Silent, Sudden Still, Sudden Widen, Combat Casting, Augment Summoning, Deft Hands, Investigator, Magical Aptitude, Negotiator, Persuasive, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Shot on the Run, Improved Precise Shot, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Brew Potion, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Rod, Craft Staff, Craft Wand, Forge Ring, Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Widen Spell, Spell Focus (conjuration, divination, enchantment, illusion, necromancy, transmutation, universal), Arcane Mastery, Double Wand Wielder, Reckless Wand Wielder, Craft Contingent Spell, Chain Spell, Cooperative Spell, Delay Spell, Energy Substitution (acid, cold, electricity, fire), Energy Admixture (acid, cold, electricity, fire), Explosive Spell, Fortify Spell, Nonlethal Substitution, Persist Spell, Repeat Spell, Sanctum Spell, Split Ray, Transdimensional Spell, Twin Spell, Combat Manifestation, Imprint Stone, Body Fuel, Mind over Body, Knockdown Power, Phrenic Leech, Sygian Power, Appraise Magic Value, Death Blow, Dive for Cover, Dual Strike, Quick Reconnoiter, Construct Grafter, Precise Swing, Bind Elemental, Extra Rings, Extraordinary Artisan, Legendary Artisan, Wand Mastery, Obscure Personal Truename, Personal Truename Backlash, Alacritous Cogitation, Defending Spirit, Hasty Spirit, Insightful Divination, Metamagic School Focus (abjuration, conjuration, divination, enchantment, evocation, illusion, necromancy, transmutation, universal), Weapon Focus (ranged spell), Ranged Recall, Somatic Weaponry, Vengeful Spirit, Retributive Spell, Dimensional Reach, Bonded Familiar, Bounding Assault, Rapid Blitz, Combat Familiar, Lurking Familiar, Weapon Focus (psychic scimitar), Weapon Specialization (psychic scimitar), Melee Weapon Mastery (slashing), Slashing Fury, Spell-Linked Familiar, Two Weapon Pounce, Vatic Gaze, Bonus Essentia, Quicken Turning, Rapid Spell, Reach Spell, Advantageous Avoidance, Better Lucky than Good, Fortuitous Strike, Good Karma, Healers Luck, Lucky Break, Lucky Catch, Lucky Fingers, Magical Fortune, Make Your Own Luck, Miser’s Fortune, Psychic Luck, Sly Fortune, Tempting Fate, Third Time’s the Charm, Unbelievable Luck, Victors Luck, Steady Concentration, Craft Rune Circle, Retrieve Spell, Divine Vigor, Fell Animate, Deathless Fleshgrafter, Eldeen Plantgrafter, Elemental Grafter, Etch Schema, Echoing Spell, Mysterious Magic, Craft Scepter, Item Reprieve, Spell Reprieve, Arcane Transfiguration (necromancy, enchantment), Wounding Spell, Craft Runestaff, Expert Timing, Miser with Magic, Unerring Strike, Channel Positive Energy, Ocular Spell, Divine Metamagic (still spell, silent spell, maximize spell, twin spell, deceptive spell, quicken spell, enlarge spell, widen spell, chain spell, cooperative spell, delay spell, energy admixture (acid, cold, electricity, fire), explosive spell, fortify spell, persist spell, repeat spell, split ray, transdimensional spell, retributive spell, rapid spell, reach spell, fell animate, echoing spell, wounding spell, ocular spell), Craft Homunculus, Improved Homunculus, Extraordinary Concentration, Mobile Spellcasting, Arcane Thesis (toothed tentacle, touch of idiocy, battlemagic perception, crack ice, khyber trap, manyjaws, ray of dizziness, sonorous hum, dimensional anchor, know vulnerabilities, orb of force, thunderlance, baleful polymorph, dismissal, feeblemind, flesh to ice, ice to flesh, transmute stone to sand, antimagic field, ensnare the heart, flesh to stone, freezing glance, permanent image, probe thoughts, programmed image, repulsion, stone to flesh, amber sarcophagus, antimagic ray, forcecage, project image, polymorph any object, temporal stasis, trap the soul, wrathful castigation), Skill Focus (42), Expanded Knowledge (207), Extra Turning (648), Extra Slot 1st (92), Extra Slot 2nd (93), Extra Slot 3rd (93), Extra Slot 4th (93), Extra Slot 5th (173), Extra Slot 5th divine (25), Extra Slot 6th (94), Extra Slot 7th (95), Extra Slot 8th (96).

*Note: These are in no particular order corresponding with believers listed above. Many have been replaced with psychic reformation in order to obtain the necessary feats.

SPECIAL ABILITIES

Azrael – Resistance, Resilience, Repletion, Thrallherd, Psionic Charm, Psionic Dominate, Greater Dominate, Superior Dominate, Twofold Master.

Armisael – Mindlink 1/day, Thrallherd, Psionic Charm, Psionic Dominate, Greater Dominate, Superior Dominate, Twofold Master.

Tabris – Summon Familiar, Warding 4/day, Unimpeachable Abjuration, Unanswerable Strike +4, Reactive Warding, Double Warding, Kaleidoscopic Doom 1/day, Master of Shaping.

Sandalphon – Mindlink 1/day, Thrallherd, Psionic Charm, Psionic Dominate, Greater Dominate, Superior Dominate, Twofold Master.

Sachiel – Mindlink 1/day, Thrallherd, Psionic Charm, Psionic Dominate, Greater Dominate, Superior Dominate, Twofold Master.

Israfel – Free Manifesting, Cognize Psicrystal, Font of Power 1/day.

Bardiel – Minor Aura (motivate dexterity), Domain Access (magic), Rebuke Undead 2164/2607 day, Mantle of Spells 3, Arcane Sight, Supernatural Spell 2/day.

Shamshel – Summon Familiar, Focused Study (necromancy), Coopertive Metamagic 16/day, Metamagic Effect 16/day, Metamagic Spell Trigger, Seize Concentration, Instant Metamagic 2/day, Snatch Spell.

Ramiel – Inspiration, Cunning Insight, Cunning Knowledge, Trapfinding, Arcane Dilettante (6 spells), Brains over Brawn, Cunning Defense, Cunning Strike, Opportunistic Piety 14/day, Cunning Surge, Cunning Breach, Cunning Dodge 1/day.

All Believers – Artificer Knowledge, Disable Trap, Item Creation, Retain Essence, Metamagic Spell Trigger, Battle Clarity (reflex saves), Weapon Aptitude, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Battle Ardor (critical confirmation), Quick to Act +2, Discipline Focus (diamond mind, stone dragon) (weapon focus, insightful strike), Sneak Attack +3d6, Evasion, Trap Sense +2, Abrupt Jaunt 13/day, Mind Blade +1, Throw Mind Blade, Free Draw, Shape Mind Blade, Personal Space (medium creature size), Telepathic Communication (100 ft), Harbinger, Divine Companion, Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/day, Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Arcane Resistance, Mettle, Grace +1, Intuitive Attack, Darkvision 60ft, Psi-Like Abilities (3/day inertial armor, psionic daze, catfall, concussion, 1/day plane shift, energy ray), Power Resistance 25, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Ki Power (Ghost Step)10/day, Sudden Strike +1d6, Scent, Minor Aura (marshal; remaining 14), Armored Mage (light), Warmage Edge, Animal Companion, Wild Empathy, Psychic Knowledge, Fate Points (15), Assume Psionic Mantles (30/all), Spell Shield, Low Light Vision, Spell-Like Abilities (1/day speak with burrowing mammals, dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation), Aura (neutral?), Detect Opposition (but he’s true neutral…), Watchful Spirit 4/day (see feats), Access to all domains and their abilities.

ITEMS

powerlink shard x 20, spiked gantlet +1 (spellblade - dispel magic, slashing dispel, steal spell, greater dispel magic, chain dispel, reaving dispel), mithril dastanas +5 (empyreal), mithril chainshirt +1 (twilight, proof against transmutation), bracers of spellcraft +10, amulet of second chances and arcane spell conversion and adaptation, belt of magnificence +6 and battle, ring of epic wizardry IX, ring of natural armor + 5, ring of anticipation, ring of nine lives, mantle of second chances, casting glove, rod of absorbtion (50), rod of greater metamagic maximize, vest of the archmage, aureon’s spellshard x 20, thought bottle, khyber dragonshard worth 50,000 gold (for khyber trap), 14,700 gold.

*Note: Azrael technically has access to unlimited gold/magic items because of his ability to cast wish as a supernatural spell. However, I only spent his actual money earned (2,072,000 gold).

POWERS KNOWN

Azrael knows all powers in existence(1-8th level; there are 414) due to his 210 expanded knowledge feats.

9th level powers known: genesis, stygian conflagration, true creation

ARCANE SPELLS KNOWN

Azrael knows all wizard spells in existence (0-9th level); he stores them in his aureon’s spellshards. Due to the fact that he has had literally a million years to study (Font of Power, Temporal Acceleration, Temporal Reiteration) and makes a great effort to keep tabs on any new spells developed.

MANEUVERS AND STANCES KNOWN (IL 6)

Desert Wind: burning blade, burning brand, fan the flames, flashing sun, wind stride.
Diamond Mind: emerald razor,
Iron Heart: absolute steel stance, disarming strike, iron heart surge, punishing stance, steel wind, 
Setting Sun: feigned opening
Shadow Hand: cloak of deception, dance of the spider, shadow garrote, shadow jaunt, strength draining strike,
Stone Dragon: mountain hammer, overwhelming mountain strike.
Tiger Claw: hunter’s sense, leaping dragon stance, sudden leap,

ARCANE SPELLS PREPARED

Cantrips (4): detect magic (4)
1st Level (100): instant search (8), locate city (8), locate touchstone (2), rouse (2), thunderhead (20), unseen servant (10), summon monster I (50).
2nd Level (100): gust of wind (15), locate object (15), ray of stupidity (40), spymaster’s coin (10), summon mirror mephit (20).
3rd Level (100): alter fortune (5), battlemagic perception (30), daylight (20), ray of dizziness (25), touch of idiocy (reach spell) (20).
4th Level (100): celerity (30), dimensional anchor (20), locate creature (10), solid fog (20), toothed tentacle (maximized) (20).
5th Level (180): cloudkill (10), contact other plane (100), ice shape (5), khyber trap (irresistible) (5), precipitate breach (5), sonorous hum (echoing) (20), transmute stone to sand (5), wall of force (30).
6th Level (100): antimagic field (10), contingency (10), crack ice (irresistible) (5), eyes of the oracle (30), know vulnerabilities (irresistible) (10), permanent image (10), ruby ray of reversal (20), veil (5).
7th Level (100): ability rip (2), antimagic ray, greater arcane eye (5), greater scrying (5), forcecage (40), manyjaws (echoing, maximized) (20), ice castle, limited wish (5), project image (10), simulacrum, vision (10).
8th Level (100): baleful polymorph (irresistible) (5), bigby’s clenched fist (5), dimensional lock (5), dismissal (irresistible) (5), dominate person (irresistible) (5), ensnare the heart (irresistible) (3)*, feeblemind (irresisbile) (5), flesh to ice (irresistible) (20), flesh to stone (irresistible)*,  ice to flesh (irresistible) (2), otiluke’s telekinetic sphere (5), greater celerity (5), greater plane shift (4), orb of force (echoing, maximized) (20), polymorph any object (echoing)*, probe thoughts (irresistible) (3)*, spell engine, stone to flesh (irresistible)*, summon monster VIII (5), trap the soul.
9th Level (4): antimagic ray (irresistible)*, ice assassin, maw of chaos, left open from alacritous cogitation feat.

*Note: Used 1 abjuration, and all 3 divination, enchantment, and transmutation uses of metamagic school focus (*).

*Note: All spells (except those which are inappropriate (ex: image spells) are modified with the invisible spell feat.
   

DIVNE SPELLS PREPARED

Cantrips (6): detect magic (6)
1st Level (7): incite (irresistible) (2), inhibit (irresistible) (5).
2nd Level (7): frost breath (energy admixture (acid), irresistible, repeating, twin, widened) (5), divine insight (2).
3rd Level (5): chain of eyes (irresistible) (3), remove curse, remove disease.
4th Level (5): control wate (2), sending, wrack (irresistible) (2).
5th Level (30): revivify (10), surge of fortune (20).
6th Level (4): find the path (2), revive outsider (2).
7th Level (2): resurrection (2).
8th Level (1): discern location.

   *Note: All spells are prepared with echoing and invisible (where appropriate) spell feats.

MANEUVERS READIED

Desert Wind: burning blade, fan the flames, wind stride.
Iron Heart: disarming strike, iron heart surge, steel wind.
Setting Sun: feigned opening
Shadow Hand: shadow jaunt, strength draining strike,
Stone Dragon: mountain hammer.


INFUSIONS

1st Level: (7)
2nd Level: (6)
3rd Level: (5)

POWERS WHICH ARE ALWAYS ACTIVE (ML 20)

Vigor (300), Inertial Armor (33), Force Screen (18), Precognition Offensive (18), Precognition Defensive (18), Thicken Skin (18), Prescience Offensive (20), Detect Teleportation (600ft; widened), Biofeedback (DR 21/-), Body Equilibrium, Detect Hostile Intent (transdimensional, widened), Reach, Concealing Amorpha Greater, Touchsight (300ft; transdimensional), Sense Danger (up to 56 pp), Mental Barrier (17), Detect Remote Viewing (widened), Empathic Feedback (up to 58 damage), Schism, Freedom of Movement, Adapt Body, Temporal Reiteration, Telekinetic Buffer, Second Chance, Dispelling Buffer, Moment of Prescience, Reddopsi, Fusion, True Metabolism.

*Note: Most powers were augmented with power-link shards when they were manifested.

SPELLS WHICH ARE ALWAYS ACTIVE (CL 2,053)

Bloodwind, Beastland Ferocity*, Detect (dragonblood, dragonmark, familiar, incarnum, manifest zone, secret doors, undead, vestige, weaponry), Divine Favor, Ebon Eyes, Expeditious Retreat, Familiar Pocket, Neverskitter, Detect Aberration, Detect Thoughts (irresistible), Toothed Tentacle (maximized), Tounges, Wraithstrike, Ferocity of Sanguine Rage, Battlemagic Perception, Ghost Touch, Fly, Haste, Sonorous Hum (which maintains a Major Image (irresistible and cast as supernatural spell)), Sonorous Hum (which maintains a toothed tentacle), Sonorous Hum (maintaining all detect spells and powers), Spellcaster’s Bane, Thunderlance (maximized), Otiluke’s Suppressing Field (all schools; widened and modified with extraordinary spell aim so it doesn’t affect Azrael), Death Ward, Delay Death, Friendly Fire, Favor of the Martyr*, Divine Power, Forceward, Sheltered Vitality, Greater Blink, Divine Agility, Duelward, Indominability, Surge of Fortune, Eyes of the Oracle (readied action to use temporal accelertation if an enemy uses timestop or temporal acceleration), Contingency (activates as soon as an enemy with a CL 17 or higher begins casting a spell; casts Time Stop on Azrael), Starmantle, True Seeing, Freezing Glance (irresistible and cast as supernatural spell), Anticipate Teleport Greater, Antimagic Field (widened and modified with extraordinary spell aim so it doesn’t affect Azrael), Hardening (increases the hardness of all his possessions by 1,026), Repulsion (irresistible and cast as supernatural spell; 20,530 ft radius), Veil (to make Azrael appear as Azrael; used to mask shapechange), Arcane Spellsurge, Energy Immunity (All), Ironguard, Greater Consumptive Field x12 (irresistible), Arcane Sight Greater, General of Undeath, Ghostform, Golem Immunity, Polymorph Any Object (irresistible, retributive; cast as a supernatural spell), Superior Invisibility, Mind Blank, Stormrage, Veil of Undeath, Foresight, Effulgent Epuration (2,053 spheres), Dimension Jumper Greater, Shapechange (default is troll form), Srinshee’s Spell Shift.

*Note: Azrael uses a major image spell which is constantly active due to his persisted sonorous hum. Basically it’s used to conceal his actual location while he remains about 30 feet behind the image under the effect of a superior invisibility spell. Thus someone without true seeing, touchsight, or something similar will attack the image instead of him. Because of his trickery domain he can make his powers seem to originate from the image.

*Note: All spells are cast modified by the metamagic feat ‘invisible spell’.

*Note: (*) – obtained through a wish spell.

SPECIAL ABILITIES ALWAYS ACTIVE

Balance domain power, charm domain power, divine companion’s shielding ability, family domain power (activated a googolplex/4 times), font of power, indigo/violet veils (x a googolplex, if you can have more than two of the same type active at the same time), mentalism domain power, mysticism domain power, trickery domain feat ability.

CONTINGENT SPELLS CRAFTED

Time Stop – triggers if an enemy ever attempts to prevent Azrael from casting a timestop or manifesting temporal acceleration.
Time Stop – triggers if an enemy attacks or targets Azrael with a potentially harmful spell without Azrael having taken an action for that particular combat.
Greater Plane Shift – triggers if Azrael is ever unable to act for any reason; plane shifts inside mordenkainen’s mansion on Azrael’s plane.
Prestidigitation – triggers if Azrael is ever the subject of a divination (such as contact other plane).


ADDITIONAL NOTES

1.   Azrael used genesis to create his own demiplane which is just over a googolplex miles in diameter. Inside this demiplane he manifests a mordenkainen’s magnificent mansion every 171 days. Azrael and his psicrystal are the only ones permitted to enter the mansion. Inside are 50 servants (he voluntarily keeps this number low) and his astral seed; which he cast a sequester on (and he renews every 2053 days). Only Azrael knows the location of his mansion and even if someone could locate it, they wouldn’t be able to enter. It is protected even further with an irresistible refusal cast as a supernatural spell which wards the area and only permits Azrael and his psicrystal to enter (he comes to renew this spell every 85 days). The door to the mansion is located in one of the dungeons of a googolplex identical castles of stone (evenly spaced apart) he creates with true creation and psionic greater fabricate, afterwards he uses the spell hardening on them, granting them an additional 1,026 hardness.

2.   Affiliation scores for all domains are maxed out.

3.   Azrael could theoretically cast additional greater consumptive fields thus giving him a CL of a googolplex; however, this would take actual time since he would have to exit his temporal acceleration to affect creatures. Therefore, he voluntarily keeps his CL at 2053.

4.   There are two reasons Azrael can manifest or cast spells without paying experience. One is by utilizing the Dweomerkeeper’s ability ‘Supernatural Spell’. The second is his thought bottle. Before Azrael ever manifested a power costing experience he used the ability of the thought bottle to place his current experience inside (he was either originally a thousand or so experience past level twenty or he killed a bunch of CR 13 creatures/npcs in order to gain it (which should be no problem for him). Afterwards he is able to spend the remaining experience to manifest powers and cast spells requiring an experience cost. Before he would lose enough experience to put him below 20th level he simply opens up the thought bottle, placing him at the original experience amount…rinse and repeat.

5.   If for some ungodly reason Azrael is defeated he has a backup plan which will revive him (other than his astral seed). Once every twenty hours Azrael manifests a metamorphosis on his psicrystal (turning it into a human) followed by correspond and a forced dream. He then manifests time hop mass, only targeting his psicrystal. Twenty hours later when the psicrystal (now in human form) exits the time hop he will immediately use a free action to speak with correspond and ask if Azrael is still alive. If he receives no reply (Azrael can reply by using an immediate action from celerity or anticipatory strike) then the psicrystal will use a swift action from forced dream and return to the round just before the time hop mass was manifested. He will then inform Azrael he received no reply and he is in potential danger. Azrael will follow this with a series of contact other plane uses to pinpoint exactly what will kill him in the next 20 hours and avoid the threat.

6.   Every week Azrael uses several castings of Contact Other Plane (COP) in order to divine potential threats to himself; he asks a series of questions as follows:

Preparation: The next series of 6 castings of COP will be labeled number 1 (repeat for each series increasing the label by 1 each time).

1)   What is the first name of the enemy that will be the biggest threat to me in the coming week? (Let's say the answer is Bob)
2) What is the last name of the enemy that will be the biggest threat to me in the coming week? (Let's say the answer is Smith)
3) What is Bob Smith's biggest vulnerability?
4) Which of Bob Smith's capabilities poses the biggest threat to me?
5) What is the best way to counter Bob Smith's biggest threat to me?
6) What day will I face Bob Smith on?
7-12) repeat 1-6 for the second biggest threat of the week.

2)   Azrael continues this line of questioning until no further threats are discovered.

3)   Azrael then asks things like "Other than the threats I've uncovered today using Contact Other Plane, are there any other defensive measures that will be critical to my survival this week?"
If answer is "yes", then "What is the most important of these defensive measures?" and "What day should I take this defensive measure on?" "At what time should I take this defensive measure?" (Repeat for 2nd most important defensive measure, and also for offensive measures)

Azrael then asks (for each series of questions):

1.   Were the answers on series number 1 (2, 3, 4, etc) reliable?
2.   Was the answer to the last question reliable
3.   Which of the two previous castings of COP is reliable?

If Azrael receives a negative answer he will redo the series for which the negative answer was received (labeling it a new number each time); including these error-checking questions. He will repeat this as much as needed until he is 100% positive each COP was truthful.

Of course Azrael always performs these in temporal acceleration which gives him as much time as he needs to complete each series. 

Thanks to PhaedrusXY for this idea

7.   Inevitable Defeat (I named this one because I felt it needed one) – If Azrael’s contingent prestidigitation ever goes off, thus indicating he is the subject of another caster’s divination, he immediately goes into temporal acceleration and uses a series of Contact Other Plane spells to indicate exactly who is using the divination, exactly where in the Multiverse they are located, and if there are any special defensive preparations of theirs which could affect him from defeating them (he will also craft another contingent prestidigitation). Azrael then (still under the temporal acceleration effect) teleports or plane shifts one mile from their location, walks/flys the rest of the journey (in case they have anticipate teleportation). When he arrives he points at them, casts another COP to make sure it's them (if he gets a no answer he recasts it a few more times to be sure; if it's truly a no somehow he repeats his previous COP castings), uses an infinite number of linked synchronicities to gain infinite standard actions and finally dispels the temporal acceleration on himself. He returns to normal time and proceeds to use his infinite actions to defeat them. No matter what contingencies they have prepared he will always be able to interrupt their actions/go before their contingencies. The only real question is…assuming the caster were able to finish his COP would it have alerted him to this second or the assumed battle which would have occurred in the future? Either way, their defeat was inevitable?.

8.   Before Azrael engaged anyone in any form of combat (after he finished his preparations (ex: fusing all of his followers, casting all his defensive spells, prepping his contingencies) he spent 1000 years in solitude, inside his mordenkainen’s mansion inside his own demiplane. Therefore, he will ALWAYS be the first to act in terms of Contact Other Plane prep because he would have existed before any other caster was able to prep against him. Therefore, once he did embark (thus becoming a “potential threat” to any caster) his prestidigitation contingency will always alert him before any caster attempts to divine on him.


: Re: Azrael
: Azrael July 16, 2010, 07:53:36 PM
This was formatted better in the word file...I don't know how to apply the same formatting rules...sorry :(
: Re: Azrael
: Lo77o July 16, 2010, 09:17:26 PM
Hah... make a monk who can beat this one and ill eat my keyboard.
: Re: Azrael
: Cannotthink July 16, 2010, 09:31:28 PM
Elan Monk 20

Take Feign Death alternative class feature.

Pretend to be dead forever. Azrael will probably eventually be bored of being awesome at some point in time while you're taking a voluntary eternal nap. Just don't forget a bottle of air.
: Re: Azrael
: Inari1991 July 17, 2010, 03:08:09 AM
So.  I do believe that Azrael is amazing.  I've seen, well not seen, but heard of two legit characters that could beat him.  Gabriel and Hikido.  I can't explain their ridiculousness, because neither of them are my characters and I don't have the sheets.  The campaign they were in had a variety of DM made powers that made them insanely powerful.  By the end of the campaign they were greater deities.  But as far as I can tell (not a lot admittedly) this seems to be completely legit from the book, so bravo good man.
: Re: Azrael
: The_Mad_Linguist July 17, 2010, 04:21:12 AM
Bah, with an outsider-typed ghost I could force a permanent stalemate.


Also, trickier wording on CoP can defeat yours.
: Re: Azrael
: Vynar July 17, 2010, 12:02:17 PM
I hope you are happy with yourself. You went and got some music stuck in my head and now I have no choice to but listen to it a lot. It is good stuff but I had other things to do.

[spoiler]Demons and Wizards, a side project of Hansi Kürsch from Blind Guardian and Jon Schaffer from Iced Earth, has two albums. The last 3 songs off their first one detail a gnome creator of the universe named Azrael who goes crazy and unmakes his creation and eventually himself before leaving it to his apprentice/sidekick guy to remake things. And yes the name is used elsewhere but that is what comes to mind.[/spoiler]
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael July 17, 2010, 12:11:49 PM
Bah, with an outsider-typed ghost I could force a permanent stalemate.

How would an outsider-typed ghost work?

Also, trickier wording on CoP can defeat yours.

Are you sure, remember I'm in solitude for 1000 years before I make any offensive action against anyone. As per the normal COP most casters don't prepare more than a week ahead of time. Therefore in order for someone to beat me using COP they would have to a) be over 1000 years old and b) have asked their COP about threats 1000 years in advance. I am going to have my prestidigiation contingency active 1000 years prior so someone would have had to cast COP on me 1000 years ago before I used it.

I agree 1000 years is pushing it, I could probably say 1 year and it would still be the same.

I think another problem with COP casters that no one has pointed out (or I am overlooking) is that (assuming you use Phaedrus' questioning, which is a series of 6 questions per threat) how does any normal caster even prepare that many COPs each week. I have 100 a day because of my extra slot feats but any normal caster would have 9 a day at best...It wouldn't really work for finding all the threats, especially if you have to do error checking.

: Re: Azrael
: carnivore July 17, 2010, 01:52:11 PM
one slight problem ... you may need to recalculate for .....

Of course Azrael always performs these in temporal acceleration which gives him as much time as he needs to complete each series.

however ... notice:

While your temporal acceleration is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and powers. This means you cannot target a creature with any attack or power. However, a power you manifest that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of your temporal acceleration has its normal effect on creatures in the area once this power ends.

you can cast COP... but no one will answer while you are under the effects of Temporal Acceleration since they are not in your timeframe

 :D

: Re: Azrael
: Azrael July 17, 2010, 02:58:12 PM
Cop doesn't target. Otherwise anyone with mind blank would be immune to it and people wouldn't be making such a big deal out of cop.
: Re: Azrael
: Daniel678 July 17, 2010, 03:18:16 PM
I think the point is that whoever you are asking the questions of would not be able to answer because they would not be in the same time frame as you. Additionally Vecna-Blooded could make you sad.
: Re: Azrael
: telehax July 17, 2010, 03:35:22 PM
I think there's something amusing about using contact other plane when you're a deity yourself.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael July 17, 2010, 03:38:29 PM
I think the point is that whoever you are asking the questions of would not be able to answer because they would not be in the same time frame as you. Additionally Vecna-Blooded could make you sad.

Yes but it never specifies that in cop....hmmm maybe I should give that template to him...wouldn't be raw though. In either case I don't want this to become a cop thread,  the cop thing is just an extra anyway.
: Re: Azrael
: veekie July 17, 2010, 03:47:20 PM
*Calls up a Power to answer a question.*
*Gets put on call waiting until end of acceleration*
: Re: Azrael
: Agita July 17, 2010, 03:50:53 PM
I think the point is that whoever you are asking the questions of would not be able to answer because they would not be in the same time frame as you. Additionally Vecna-Blooded could make you sad.

Yes but it never specifies that in cop....hmmm maybe I should give that template to him...wouldn't be raw though. In either case I don't want this to become a cop thread,  the cop thing is just an extra anyway.
Actually, you can take the template, then lose it by using the DR too much, thus also losing the LA. The important ability which renders you immune to divinations, however, stays.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael July 17, 2010, 04:25:42 PM
Is that RAW though? Don't templates technically have to be approved by DM. I mean technically anything needs to be approved but templates are specific. I dunno, I guess I'll just apply the template to one of his followers...it's not like this character would ever be played anyways
: Re: Azrael
: The_Mad_Linguist July 17, 2010, 05:29:40 PM
Outsider ghost works via celestial attended birth and how region feats interact with RHD.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael July 17, 2010, 06:02:15 PM
Yes but why would it stalemate
: Re: Azrael
: The_Mad_Linguist July 17, 2010, 06:03:24 PM
No permanent way of killing it off.  And every time you do, you get a curse bestowed upon you.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael July 18, 2010, 12:47:11 AM
Yes but couldn't he just imprison it or something? Or trap the soul? Or even (since its an outsider) Khyber Trap it? Hes specifically prepared for Khyber trapping

and its not like the curse would affect Azrael.
: Re: Azrael
: The_Mad_Linguist July 18, 2010, 01:43:47 AM
Permanently imprison somebody incorporeal?  Good luck.  As for trap the soul, I already have a trap the soul gem prepared with your name inscribed on it.  Trapping me implicitly accepts the gem, thus trapping you inside it inside the other gem.

And a 75% chance of losing your action for the turn and having a 1 for your mental stats and being blind and deaf and losing all you money and your thralls turning against you and losing your spells and casting, with a couple of other nasty things thrown on should put a nasty kink in your plans.

Note that's what happens the first time you kill me.  And I come back 24 hours later, none the worse for the wear.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael July 18, 2010, 02:27:25 AM
How would you have my name inscribed on it if you didn't know what it was....remember the prestidigitation. And beyond that I'm vecna blooded now so it doesn't even matter...also, when I COPed you I certainly got the information not to use trap the soul on you since it might be dangerous to me.

Besides, I certainly beg to differ that I accept your gem by trapping you inside mine...even if that was true, I am trapping your soul, not your items or your incorporeal body. Just because you are a ghost does not mean your body = your soul. Even if I somehow do manage to get trapped, I always have my 'save-game' to resort to.

How does this bestow greater curse even effect me, I'm completely immune to magic...not to mention all necromancy, among my many other protections active 24/7. Hell, my spell aimed antimagic field and suppression fields mean that my magic works inside them but yours does not so even if you did do the trap the soul thing your spell would simply fail to affect me.

: Re: Azrael
: Daniel678 July 18, 2010, 02:40:56 AM
One small suggestion, powers that belong to the Psychoportation discipline are, unlike every other discipline, unassociated unassociated with any school of magic and therefore Otiluke’s Suppressing Field would not suppress them. To patch that hole you can cast another Otiluke’s Suppressing Field suppressing spells and powers with the teleportation descriptor. This covers most but not all of the Psychoportation powers.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael July 18, 2010, 02:49:44 AM
Even if that is the case its not like it would go through the AMF anyway. The suppressing fields are just an extra precaution to deal with any potential initiates of mystras which can cast through my AMF (assuming they have a high enough CL) but would be unable to make it through the suppression fields since initiate of mystra does not indicate that.
: Re: Azrael
: The_Mad_Linguist July 18, 2010, 03:06:14 AM
If you're immune to magic, you can't use Contact Other Plane.


Trap the soul forces a creature’s life force (and its material body) into a gem.

Dying Curses are from BoVD.  I lose the ability to come back via raise dead or resurrection, but it never mentions rejuvenation.  

Note that this isn't really a spell - it just inflicts the effects of one.  Or, in the case of having 17+ HD, twenty five bestow curses or 10 bestow greaters.  Which pretty much means that if you kill me you're screwed.

And, well, having lived a full life already and spending a long time being dead, an evil ghost has been scheming since before elans were invented.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael July 18, 2010, 03:28:44 AM
If you're immune to magic, you can't use Contact Other Plane.


I figured Magic Immunity was the same as Spell Resistance, you can lower it at will...it does say treat it exactly like an unbeatable SR and you can lower your own SR. Either way I can always take it down while im divining inside my temporal accel...after all I have all the time in the world, which takes no time at all.

Trap the soul forces a creature’s life force (and its material body) into a gem.

Even if it does get your body I highly doubt it would accept your Gem since it is now inert...how are your magic items functioning inside a gem? Also, it says body...not body and equipment...so you are nekkid.

Dying Curses are from BoVD.  I lose the ability to come back via raise dead or resurrection, but it never mentions rejuvenation

Note that this isn't really a spell - it just inflicts the effects of one.  Or, in the case of having 17+ HD, twenty five bestow curses or 10 bestow greaters.  Which pretty much means that if you kill me you're screwed.

Regardless whether or not its a spell, it still requires LoE and my veils block that.

And, well, having lived a full life already and spending a long time being dead, an evil ghost has been scheming since before elans were invented.

Chicken and the egg...anyone can make the same argument about pun-pun, do people?...no...


I like how you conveniently avoided these points

1. now vecna blooded so you'll never know my name

2. if they mimic bestow curse (greater) then they are a necromancy effect which I am immune to...regardless if they are a spell or not...hell, they probably even allow a save and SR. If its not specified otherwise you have to assume it works identical to the spell in question.

3. How is your trap the soul or any of your SU effects operating in my AMF?...oh thats right...they don't...you still lose.

4. save-game feature...ill always come back :D and i'll come back before anything ever happened to me in the first place, which means ill take extra measures...lets say 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 castings of COP to ensure my victory...something that you could never accomplish...you see, even if you are "older" than me, because of my infinite time I can cast so many COPs that even if a creature was alive the second the big bang occurred and worked every second of his entire life he still couldn't cast as many as I.

: Re: Azrael
: Solo July 18, 2010, 03:32:22 AM
Chicken and the egg...anyone can make the same argument about pun-pun, do people?...no...
We've settled that little debate. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38238685/ns/technology_and_science-science/?Gt1=43001)
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael July 18, 2010, 03:38:10 AM
Obviously not the point.

and actually I disagree with their assessment...Perhaps the gene which is essential to the production of the egg was present in the pre-chicken animal which is only a few genes separated from the modern chicken as we know it. However, evolution always occurs at the genetic level through mutations which, of course, would occur in the egg and thus mutate the embryo into the chicken as we know it today...thus, the egg did indeed come first...the egg which produced the first modern chicken, genetically identical to the chickens we know today.
: Re: Azrael
: The_Mad_Linguist July 18, 2010, 04:17:34 AM
It's not "an effect which inflicts bestow greater curse upon the target"
It's "an effect which has the same effect as bestow greater curse upon the target"

The dying creature can target anyone with a dying curse; the target need not be present when the curse is delivered.

And your save game fails when

The target’s most powerful and/or cherished item falls apart, becoming forever useless.
or
All of the target’s loved ones and allies suddenly despise him and are considered to have unfriendly attitudes. See NPC Attitudes in Chapter 5 of the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide for actions former allies might take.
or
The target cannot cast spells, use spell-like abilities, or activate spell completion or spell trigger items.
happen.

Your nice retrieval gear?  Doesn't work.

The same logic that makes trap the soul trap you naked also means your items aren't temporally accelerating or anklet of transporting with you.  It's also blatantly contrary to how equipment is treated by every spell in the game.  


Dying curses are nasty nasty plot-device-level stuff.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael July 18, 2010, 02:55:21 PM
Umm same effect still means save and sr...you can choose to interpret it another way but as I have pointed out many times before on RAW arguments, if there is something which can be reasonably interpreted 2 different ways it ceases to be raw and thus be be becomes a theoretical argument which means it ceases to become raw and is now TO...so congrats, I guess you beat my RAW character (actually you stalemated him since he would just avoid you because his cop's indicated a danger so he never fought you in the first place) with a TO...good job what an accomplishment.

edit: and OMFG I just looked at Dying curses and it says (and I quote) "as bestow curse/greater"...when you say "as" something it means "Exactly"....omg are you seriously going to make the argument it doesn't allow save and sr even though it says "as"? You will totally lose that argument...its not even a TO issue anymore, its a common sense issue.


Oh...and these, so maybe you can't even beat RAW with TO :D

Again...vecna blooded so you don't know my name so you cant prepare your trap the soul.

AMF so none of your shit works...even your dying curse

Indigo and violet veils so you can't target me with anything. Sure sounds like those dying curses need a target to me

and oh yeah, almost forgot...since I only face you with infinite actions (as I have indicated in my character description) then I can simply use a wish before your dying curses would affect me to wish to be completely immune to all dying curses...ever...not that I couldn't have just wished for that before I even fought your because my COP would have indicated that.

: Re: Azrael
: Lo77o July 18, 2010, 03:09:59 PM
I guess anyone with access to CoP and Path of the Exalted could kill you... All they had to do was spend allot of time asking about what buffs you have, and then talk it over with a god. I bet they could find a way to kill you, even if i cant.

But if "all" it takes to find your weak spot is to talk it over with a god, i would suggest your rather safe.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael July 18, 2010, 03:15:38 PM
No, my buffs create an absolute defense, its completely impenetrable...believe me, I checked...there is no way around it. And as I have indicated before...

I'm vecna blooded now.

Predtigitation contingency.

: Re: Azrael
: Lo77o July 18, 2010, 03:20:53 PM
Are you telling me that your protected from the prying eyes of gods?
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael July 18, 2010, 03:24:56 PM
Even if they can see me it doesn't mean they can do anything about me.

I know everything about this character and I can't figure out a way to beat him (save for one...I think; I have to check on something first) so even if I was the DM and the god was under my control I still wouldn't know what to tell the players...well I mean, except for that one thing, but that's how they are supposed to beat him anyway...assuming it does work...which I have to double check on.
: Re: Azrael
: The_Mad_Linguist July 18, 2010, 03:26:14 PM
If complicated or convoluted conditions are prescribed, the whole spell combination (contingency and the companion magic) may fail when called on. The companion spell occurs based solely on the stated conditions, regardless of whether you want it to.
So what's the wording of your claimed prestidigitation contingency?

activates as soon as an enemy with a CL 17 or higher begins casting a spell; casts Time Stop on Azrael
Never says that it has to be your enemy.  Bam, you just wasted your contingency.  

You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

You just wished yourself to death by trying to be immune to dying curses.  Nice job.  They appear to be (ex) anyway, so SR doesn't apply, and I can make a fairly decent argument for them not having saves.


I don't need to know your name.  I just need to carve really small and include all possible letter combinations between 4 and 10 characters in every language.  Pretty sure your name has to be there somewhere.


Honestly, though, saying that you automatically win if you get the initiative and several billion round of actions is really dumb.  You'd have to work hard to find a build that couldn't win under those circumstances.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael July 18, 2010, 03:38:23 PM
So what's the wording of your claimed prestidigitation contingency?

read it...you read the other one.

Never says that it has to be your enemy.  Bam, you just wasted your contingency. 

Oh stop being nit picky...how is it defined as an enemy if its not my enemy? Enemy is a subjective term, which means in order for it to be defined as enemy, it has to be an enemy of me. But damn, if you want to be that technical about it ill change it...sheesh.

You just wished yourself to death by trying to be immune to dying curses.  Nice job.  They appear to be (ex) anyway, so SR doesn't apply, and I can make a fairly decent argument for them not having saves.

well its not like I even have to do that anymore since your dying curses don't even work on me (see above argument)...and even if I did wish myself to death then my save-game would work in this instance because you wouldn't have been able to dying curse me...and its not like I would have even fought your character in the first place if there wasn't 100% chance certainty that I would win and remain unharmed (as per his COP castings)...at this point we are just arguing whether or not your character can affect me in any way, not whether or not he can beat me, that's been thrown out the window already. If it can, I'll simply avoid the battle/killing him; and I would have known all of that ahead of time.

I don't need to know your name.  I just need to carve really small and include all possible letter combinations between 4 and 10 characters in every language.  Pretty sure your name has to be there somewhere.

Really....how are you going to afford all those crystals? That's pretty expensive for only having 760,000 gold.

Honestly, though, saying that you automatically win if you get the initiative and several billion round of actions is really dumb.  You'd have to work hard to find a build that couldn't win under those circumstances.

Its not that I win because I get infinite actions, I win because of the character...the infinite actions just help...hell, its not like someone with infinite actions could get through my impenetrable defense.

: Re: Azrael
: The_Mad_Linguist July 18, 2010, 03:44:59 PM
On the same crystal.

Really small.


The thing about contingency is it includes a clause that lets the GM screw with you if you try to abuse the wording.

You tried to abuse the wording - ergo the GM will try to screw with you.
: Re: Azrael
: Mushroom July 18, 2010, 03:45:12 PM


Honestly, though, saying that you automatically win if you get the initiative and several billion round of actions is really dumb.  You'd have to work hard to find a build that couldn't win under those circumstances.

Its not that I win because I get infinite actions, I win because of the character...the infinite actions just help...hell, its not like even someone with infinite actions could get through my impenetrable defense.


Solo's Truenamers could do it  :p
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael July 18, 2010, 03:49:42 PM
On the same crystal.

Really small.


The thing about contingency is it includes a clause that lets the GM screw with you if you try to abuse the wording.

You tried to abuse the wording - ergo the GM will try to screw with you.

Do you want to figure out the Npr for those letter combinations...because im quite sure that even if you were to inscribe them on the atomic level they wouldn't fit on several thousand crystals...let alone you having the ability to write them that tiny.

I guess ill make the wording better then...hell, even Kahn needed some help with pun-pun.

Solo's Truenamers could do it  :p

I highly doubt that...how do they even get LoE to me? Or cast spells on me while I'm inside an AMF?
: Re: Azrael
: The_Mad_Linguist July 18, 2010, 03:52:01 PM
The several thousand year head start is implausible.  Especially as an elan, since they're pretty much the newest race on the block.

You also aren't going to get your universe as large as you say it is in that time, anyway.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael July 18, 2010, 03:56:08 PM
The several thousand year head start is implausible.  Especially as an elan, since they're pretty much the newest race on the block.

You also aren't going to get your universe as large as you say it is in that time, anyway.

Like I said, several thousand years was just a hopeful...it could be one year and that would be enough.

In every COP thread I have EVER seen no one has prepared for more than a week in advance...you can change your mind now and say that you guys prepare more than that now that you know there's a threat to you and you have to do so. But, since no one specified before and I am the first one to say such things I think that makes me the first one to do it...even so, it becomes a "anyone could have killed pun-pun before he gained power" argument, which is just stupid.
: Re: Azrael
: The_Mad_Linguist July 18, 2010, 04:03:56 PM
All I need time for is one question with COP and a free action.  Everything else is gravy.

That said, I've seen people argue they started out at the beginning of time back on 339, so you're a bit of a latecomer.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael July 18, 2010, 04:59:43 PM
Well you still cant COP me because I'm Vecna blooded...I have said this a thousand times and you keep ignoring it.

Ive countered every one of your arguments with either something that I already did, a mistake you made in your interpretations, or something that's an easy fix, but you keep ignoring some of mine; like the Vecna blooded or AMF one. Just admit that I win for once...geeze.

: Re: Azrael
: The_Mad_Linguist July 18, 2010, 05:07:14 PM
It's not a question about you.  It's a question about me.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael July 18, 2010, 05:08:16 PM
Which is?
: Re: Azrael
: The_Mad_Linguist July 18, 2010, 05:10:26 PM
I'll answer as soon as you explain how you can use Contact Other Plane to gather information related to yourself.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael July 18, 2010, 05:22:52 PM
Its the reverse of what you said. The questions are about other people, not myself.

"Does anyone have the capability to harm me" isn't gathering information about me, its gathering information about someone else.

Mine would return specific information about you but yours could only return yes or no answers.

Or

I could simply dispel the specific fusion which fuses the specific creature which is Vecna Blooded and then ask the questions (of course this is done under the effects of temporal accel).
: Re: Azrael
: The_Mad_Linguist July 18, 2010, 05:44:37 PM
That's still asking a question about you, in the same way that asking "Who fought against the Germans on the Eastern Front?" is still asking a question about Germany.

Anyway, the question is a fairly simple "will I win everything iff I do 'foo' next" where foo is my free/immediate action.  strap on a third eye: reveal, and presto.  I win everything.

Either I will win everything if I say "screw the rules I have money", in which case I say "screw the rules I have money", or I win if I don't say "screw the rules I have money", so I don't say it.  Either way I win.  

How does it happen?  Hell if I know.  But since a universe with me winning is the only logically consistent one, we have to go with that one.

If you want a different wording, you can use a XOR instead.  Same principle


Fusion using cloak of mystery looks like it results in amnesia for you.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael July 18, 2010, 06:04:39 PM
You may be right about the fusion thing. However you forget one thing, if you are incapable of winning (as you are against Azrael) you'll never get a yes. Thus, best case it's a pseudo-stalemate, since we would never meet in the first place because you avoid me.
: Re: Azrael
: Wings of Peace July 19, 2010, 04:29:13 AM
Outsider ghost works via celestial attended birth and how region feats interact with RHD.

Or simply play Ghostwalk.  :)
: Re: Azrael
: Nameless Void July 19, 2010, 06:09:26 AM
I think the only problem with Vecna-blooded is: Vecna would have to deem you fit enough to be one who he (or rather his servants the Anchorites) would bestow it upon.

The problem: Vecna is neutral evil. And Vecna rules that which is not meant to be known and that which people wish to keep secret.

I believe Vecna would be the kind of God who would have an issue with you getting as powerful as you will get and would A) Not bestow his God-blooded powers upon you and B) probably slay you before you get as powerful as you are in your original post.

That said, very nice build Azreal. Very interesting concepts and you really must have spent time on it.  :clap
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael July 19, 2010, 02:40:15 PM
Vecna wouldn't really have a choice because it would have been one of my low level believers that was vecna blooded. By the time he realized what was going on the believer would have already been part of me. He could then come after Azrael, but he would lose horribly.

That being said I think we have established I'm no longer vecna blooded because of the problems it would pose with cop.

And thanks, the character has been around since 05-06ish so I cant say how long it took me, but it didn't reach this final form until this week. I had been meaning to update it when I realized, 'hey, I can thrallherd a thrallherd' (and I added more abilities). The update took me about a week; on and off of course. Calculating all the feats, hp, skills, pp, etc (not that most of them mattered anyway) was the most time-consuming part.
: Re: Azrael
: Agita July 19, 2010, 04:32:49 PM
Vecna wouldn't really have a choice because it would have been one of my low level believers that was vecna blooded. By the time he realized what was going on the believer would have already been part of me. He could then come after Azrael, but he would lose horribly.
Be careful to wait with the assimilation for a few weeks. Gods can see a few weeks into the future.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael July 19, 2010, 05:33:43 PM
He would probably be the last thing Azrael assimilated so the character would basically be complete, minus the one minion. So yeah, I guess he would wait a while to assimilate the vecna blooded one and by then the character would be too powerful for Vecna to defeat...but its moot anyway since I wont be using the Vecna blooded. I think I would rather have the ability to COP myself, its pretty essential for Azrael's survival in the unlikely circumstance that he dies and the save-game activates...otherwise the situation may just repeat itself in an infinite loop...at that point he will probably have to use TML's line of questioning.

Besides, it really doesn't matter if people can COP him. Only a few would be able to do it since he waits a while before he confronts anyone and they would have had to prepare their COP's at least a year in advance; and very few do this. Afterward, the prestidigitation contingency will go off.

Even if people can COP Azrael I think the best they can do is discover a way to avoid him altogether...I don't even think pun-pun can defeat this character, he would just be another stalemate.
: Re: Azrael
: Agita July 19, 2010, 05:55:09 PM
By a certain interpretation of Manipulate Form, Pun-Pun can give himself custom abilities. Like:
Kill Azrael (Ex): Azrael dies, no matter where or when he is in relation to you (it even works across planar aboundaries). This ability offers no saving throw, cannot be countered, and it cannot be circumvented using save-games or any of that other silly stuff Azrael has. This ability does not take an action to activate, and can be activated whenever you damn well please, even if Azrael is currently in a Temporal Acceleration and even if you're somehow flat-footed. After Azrael has been killed by this ability, he cannot be brought back through any means, not even epic magic.

That's just something real quick, I'm sure TML can come up with a better one.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael July 19, 2010, 06:43:03 PM
By a certain interpretation of Manipulate Form, Pun-Pun can give himself custom abilities. Like:
Kill Azrael (Ex): Azrael dies, no matter where or when he is in relation to you (it even works across planar aboundaries). This ability offers no saving throw, cannot be countered, and it cannot be circumvented using save-games or any of that other silly stuff Azrael has. This ability does not take an action to activate, and can be activated whenever you damn well please, even if Azrael is currently in a Temporal Acceleration and even if you're somehow flat-footed. After Azrael has been killed by this ability, he cannot be brought back through any means, not even epic magic.

That's just something real quick, I'm sure TML can come up with a better one.

"By a certain interpretation"

...as I have pointed out many times before on RAW arguments, if there is something which can be reasonably interpreted 2 different ways it ceases to be raw and thus be be becomes a theoretical argument which means it ceases to become raw and is now TO...

By all means come up with something better.

I'm not saying I could beat him either, just that it would be a stalemate and thus they would choose to play a game like chess (no divination honor rules) to settle their differences. I think there's a lot of characters out there that can stalemate pun-pun (well maybe a handful). All these characters should all just get together and create some sort of 'Time Lord' organization or something.

: Re: Azrael
: Agita July 19, 2010, 06:57:21 PM
By a certain interpretation of Manipulate Form, Pun-Pun can give himself custom abilities. Like:
Kill Azrael (Ex): Azrael dies, no matter where or when he is in relation to you (it even works across planar aboundaries). This ability offers no saving throw, cannot be countered, and it cannot be circumvented using save-games or any of that other silly stuff Azrael has. This ability does not take an action to activate, and can be activated whenever you damn well please, even if Azrael is currently in a Temporal Acceleration and even if you're somehow flat-footed. After Azrael has been killed by this ability, he cannot be brought back through any means, not even epic magic.

That's just something real quick, I'm sure TML can come up with a better one.

"By a certain interpretation"
Well, if I recall correctly (don't have Serpent Kingdoms in front of me right now), it's not so much a certain interpretation as it is the ability simply lacking a clause that limits you to already-existing abilities, so it could be called RAW. Dodgy RAW, but RAW. Kind of like a Shaedling making epic artifacts.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael July 19, 2010, 07:08:35 PM
Even if that is RAW (though I would argue that creating an ability that doesn't exist can only be done by a DM) then whats stopping something from killing pun-pun with the same ability?
: Re: Azrael
: Agita July 19, 2010, 07:11:50 PM
Even if that is RAW (though I would argue that creating an ability that doesn't exist can only be done by a DM) then whats stopping something from killing pun-pun with the same ability?
The fact that noone else has the ability, because Pun-Pun just made it up on the spot?
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael July 19, 2010, 09:03:02 PM
yeah but anyone with the manipulate form ability (or shapechange/metamorphic transfer; and Azrael is one of them) could theoretically create Kill Pun-Pun (Ex)

So therefore it becomes a chicken and the egg thing yet again. Whoever has the ability first wins because they kill off everyone else that possesses manipulate form so it can never be used against them...and those arguments are stupid. The only way to prevent such an argument from occurring is to simply rule that the ability cannot create abilities which do not exist.


Therefore, that ability cannot kill Azrael...because, if you argue that it can, you might as well argue that Pun-Pun just killed him while he was in his mothers womb, or vice-versa.
: Re: Azrael
: Agita July 19, 2010, 09:08:10 PM
To be honest, the OP was tldr, so I missed that Azrael has Manipulate Form. :P In that case, Azrael vs. Pun-Pun (as well as Azrael vs. anyone else, really) is utterly moot, because Azrael is pretty much Pun-Pun. At that point, it would be easier to just make him a level 1 character and say "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".

One of the kill pun-pun builds might kill him, in that case. The Omniscificer build was, IIRC, specifically created to know about Big P before he ascends and kill him while he's still mortal.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael July 19, 2010, 09:19:37 PM
Azrael doesn't have manipulate form but he can easily grant it to himself in the same manner that Pun-Pun did (if I'm not mistaken).

Yeah I know, he would basically be Pun-Pun then wouldn't he...the point is to avoid such things from occurring (or having to occur out of necessity). Therefore, I would say the most logical ruling to prevent such things from happening is to declare that manipulate form is incapable of creating abilities that don't exist.

I don't know, that would just be my solution...

Anyway, barring creating abilities that don't exist like Kill Whoever (Ex) I honestly don't believe there is a way to defeat Azrael...barring that one thing that I still need to check up on. Which, actually, would be a way to defeat pun-pun as well...assuming it works...it's very Aladdin. 

One of the kill pun-pun builds might kill him, in that case.

What builds?

The Omniscificer build was, IIRC, specifically created to know about Big P before he ascends and kill him while he's still mortal.

And isn't that still a chicken-or-egg debate that everyone should avoid.

Just FYI, the reason I think we should avoid these types of arguments is because anyone can make them. Any D&D newb with no CO experience whatsoever can make such an argument. Therefore, in light of it not being used against us, I vote that we don't use it ourselves...otherwise, what are we doing here?
: Re: Azrael
: Agita July 20, 2010, 07:19:03 AM
And isn't that still a chicken-or-egg debate that everyone should avoid.
Pretty much. The whole point of the build, IIRC, was to win the chicken-and-egg debate.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael July 20, 2010, 03:44:16 PM
I remember seeing that build way back when. I thought the only special thing was that infinite loop involving the belt and some other shit.

In anycase, how exactly does it prove he came first?
: Re: Azrael
: Damien_Wilacoth September 19, 2010, 10:10:43 AM
How exactly is Azrael keeping his Fusion going all the time?  You mentioned Metamind abuse, but what exactly are you abusing?
: Re: Azrael
: telehax September 19, 2010, 10:42:00 AM
Temporal Reiteration

Go look it up.
: Re: Azrael
: KellKheraptis September 19, 2010, 12:16:20 PM
Azrael, is the build you refer to one of Monty and the Terminator, per chance (i.e. your psicrystal trick)?  Or was there a TO build I missed somewhere (like...Amaranth maybe, though he'd just be another stalemate)?  Also, thinking of building a TO character to see if I can match him >.>  Minus Pun-pun of course, though the Shadow Mythal Mage comes close :P
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 19, 2010, 03:44:44 PM
I actually don't know what build it was. I don't even think it was a specific char build, it was just an idea someone posted at some point in time that I happened to read and thought was a good idea.

I mean, you can try, but I'm perfectly confident there's no possible way to beat this char. You could theoretically stalemate him perhaps, but even then its probably more like a 'you need to run away and stay under my radar and avoid all possible encounters type of thing' which isn't a true stalemate imo. And again, even if you do manage to kill him (somehow) there's no possible way to enter his mansion (I should actually have two separate mansions, one for the astral seed, and one for the psicrystal), and kill the psicrystal or astral seed before he would revive himself.

*Note to self: add a thought bottle next to his Astral Seed so when he revives himself (assuming it ever occurs) he can get himself up to his normal level instantaneously. 

Which also reminds me, I need to add a spell-aimed ghost trap to him as well...to prevent wink-out stalemating.
: Re: Azrael
: KellKheraptis September 19, 2010, 08:47:07 PM
Technically, as I thought about it, any paranoid archmage with demiplane CoM astral projection tactics stalemates anyone super powerful, and vice versa.  Neither will ever go after the other, and neither can enter the fully closed demiplane of the other.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 19, 2010, 11:54:31 PM
Right, that's kind of what I meant when I said

'you need to run away and stay under my radar and avoid all possible encounters type of thing' which isn't a true stalemate imo

Though I suppose I forgot about AP. I guess as long as there's some kind of encounter then it can be considered a stalemate...I guess.
: Re: Azrael
: Bauglir September 20, 2010, 12:17:45 AM
Did Tleilaxu_Ghola's no-ship work for the Terminator ever get anywhere? I haven't been able to find that stuff in a format I can understand, so I don't know exactly what it's capable of, but I do seem to recall riding around in a buffed-up Tarrasque-shell with TBoS cheese or something. And something about time travel?
: Re: Azrael
: KellKheraptis September 20, 2010, 11:56:27 AM
Did Tleilaxu_Ghola's no-ship work for the Terminator ever get anywhere? I haven't been able to find that stuff in a format I can understand, so I don't know exactly what it's capable of, but I do seem to recall riding around in a buffed-up Tarrasque-shell with TBoS cheese or something. And something about time travel?

Do you have access to the original thread in archive?
: Re: Azrael
: Bauglir September 20, 2010, 01:07:53 PM
Did Tleilaxu_Ghola's no-ship work for the Terminator ever get anywhere? I haven't been able to find that stuff in a format I can understand, so I don't know exactly what it's capable of, but I do seem to recall riding around in a buffed-up Tarrasque-shell with TBoS cheese or something. And something about time travel?

Do you have access to the original thread in archive?

Nope. I think I might've found an archive once, but it would've been back during Gleemax days or earlier. I'm not sure if it still exists, but if it does it'd be a strong contender here, I think. I could look around for it later, but I was mostly wondering if anybody remembered it (and had a better grasp of it than I did, as I think I got lost fairly quickly).
: Re: Azrael
: KellKheraptis September 20, 2010, 01:24:02 PM
Did Tleilaxu_Ghola's no-ship work for the Terminator ever get anywhere? I haven't been able to find that stuff in a format I can understand, so I don't know exactly what it's capable of, but I do seem to recall riding around in a buffed-up Tarrasque-shell with TBoS cheese or something. And something about time travel?

Do you have access to the original thread in archive?

Nope. I think I might've found an archive once, but it would've been back during Gleemax days or earlier. I'm not sure if it still exists, but if it does it'd be a strong contender here, I think. I could look around for it later, but I was mostly wondering if anybody remembered it (and had a better grasp of it than I did, as I think I got lost fairly quickly).

If it had to do with sub-atomic particle optimization on a quantum physics/temporal manipulation level, then yeah, I remember it, but don't have the archive.  Basically it used pure math to prove the <xxx here> always will, always did, and always has existed before, during, and after Pun-pun, thus providing a means to concretely remove him.  And ironically I believe Vecna-blooded was part of it.
: Re: Azrael
: Prime32 September 20, 2010, 04:15:43 PM
Did Tleilaxu_Ghola's no-ship work for the Terminator ever get anywhere? I haven't been able to find that stuff in a format I can understand, so I don't know exactly what it's capable of, but I do seem to recall riding around in a buffed-up Tarrasque-shell with TBoS cheese or something. And something about time travel?
IIRC it involved having an antimagic tarrasque swallow you, and having antimagic tarrasque pseudodragons cling to it. In a dead magic zone.

There was another build which involved a denizen of a timeless plane sending a Thought Bottle back in time to the Material Plane before Pun-Pun existed, erasing his own memories and going back in time to find it (since Pun-Pun would realise if someone time-travelled with the intent to kill him).
: Re: Azrael
: Epoch16 September 20, 2010, 06:03:20 PM
If time is stopped when Azrael casts CoP, from where do the answers come from? (I am assuming the deity that Azrael contacts would be frozen in time, and therefore unable to speak while the timestop was active.)

I guess the answer must be that there are at least some deities that are un affected by Time Stop? I do know there is a chosen of Mystra that is unaffected. . . .

: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 21, 2010, 03:17:05 AM
I had that question too, but there doesn't seem to be a rule saying CoP wouldn't work...perhaps the time lords from the immortals handbook are answering him...who knows.

I always got the impression it was an over-deity or some other entity that answers CoP since "gods" (as they are in the books) wouldn't necessarily know the answers to everything. To borrow a term from Buffy/Angel 'the powers that be' -most likely the same powers that have a hand in the omniscience of contingency- have a hand in it.
: Re: Azrael
: The_Mad_Linguist September 21, 2010, 03:24:47 AM
I think technically you can bypass vecna blooded via COP, since vecna still knows shit about you.
: Re: Azrael
: Mixster September 21, 2010, 11:42:51 AM
How do you get around not rolling a one on the CoP other int check to not decrease your charisma and int to 8 for 5 weeks?
: Re: Azrael
: Bozwevial September 21, 2010, 11:46:53 AM
How do you get around not rolling a one on the CoP other int check to not decrease your charisma and int to 8 for 5 weeks?
Take 10 on it.
: Re: Azrael
: Epoch16 September 21, 2010, 03:50:09 PM
Ok bare with me here for just a min. I'm new at this. .. .. .. .

Um. . .So lets say there were a powerful enough chaotic nuetral character roaming around. That character casts time stop. And decided to cast time stop with in the first time stop and decided to do this MANY times over, Couldnt that character spontaniously decide within that time stopped frame, to kill Azrael, and then seek him out while maintaing an near-infinite timestop?

( I know time stop doesnt let you target or directly harm a being, but you could forcecage a person, reverse gravity, gate in a nutronium golem, or some other shenanigans to cause a near instantanious death when time resumed.)

If a character outside of normal time became a threat to Azrael I dont think Azrael would be aware of that threat (due to CoP), because that threat doesnt yet exist in true time. (Is this making sense?)

This of couse doesnt answer how the chaotic nuetral character knew about Azrael in the first place. .. .. .. .
: Re: Azrael
: bearsarebrown September 21, 2010, 04:03:10 PM
You cannot be under the effect of Time Stop more the once. They just fizzle out. Just like how you can't cast Mage Armor on yourself 15 times. Bad example, Just like how you can't cast Haste multiple times to stack the dodge bonus.
: Re: Azrael
: Epoch16 September 21, 2010, 04:29:57 PM
You cannot be under the effect of Time Stop more the once. They just fizzle out. Just like how you can't cast Mage Armor on yourself 15 times. Bad example, Just like how you can't cast Haste multiple times to stack the dodge bonus.

I was unaware of that. Where do I find that ruling/errata for future reference, pls?

And since the whole infinate timestop thing doesnt work, what if, after the first time stop, the chaotic nuetral character planeshifted to a demi-plane that was Timeless, gathered information to find Azrael (I dont know how), then cast a maximized impowered extended (read time-bending shenanigans) time stop to go to Azrael and then assinate him while in a long time stop?

Basically I think the key to defeating Azrael is to attack from outside the range of his senses. If Azrael exists in standard time (even if the time were faster or slower,) something that acted outside of time altogether should be unknowable and undetectable to Azrael or any other being that exists within time, since it operates outside of the normal laws of time in the universe.

Maybe something from the far realm. .. .. .. .
: Re: Azrael
: bearsarebrown September 21, 2010, 04:45:08 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#stackingEffects

And Time Stop doesn't block CoP.
: Re: Azrael
: KellKheraptis September 21, 2010, 04:55:10 PM
Ardent 10 with dominant ideal, recharge, and the right powers is effectively out of the time stream, and further has effectively infinite actions, and more so infinite actions that can interrupt anyone else's actions.  Not a win, and between his metamind and all powers known/recharge through spells and feats, Azrael can do just as well if not better, but it's effectively a stalemate, as the Ardent will always exist in some time stream somewhere/somewhen, so he never really can die.  Do it as an Elan, and he can do so infinitely, given that he won't die of old age.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 22, 2010, 02:03:28 AM
Ok bare with me here for just a min. I'm new at this. .. .. .. .

Um. . .So lets say there were a powerful enough chaotic nuetral character roaming around. That character casts time stop. And decided to cast time stop with in the first time stop and decided to do this MANY times over, Couldnt that character spontaniously decide within that time stopped frame, to kill Azrael, and then seek him out while maintaing an near-infinite timestop?

( I know time stop doesnt let you target or directly harm a being, but you could forcecage a person, reverse gravity, gate in a nutronium golem, or some other shenanigans to cause a near instantanious death when time resumed.)

If a character outside of normal time became a threat to Azrael I dont think Azrael would be aware of that threat (due to CoP), because that threat doesnt yet exist in true time. (Is this making sense?)

This of couse doesnt answer how the chaotic nuetral character knew about Azrael in the first place. .. .. .. .

Even if someone were to try and forcecage me while under time stop/temporal reiteration I have a 20ft antimagic field around me at all times, and a 40ft otiluke's supressing field (one for each school), so they wouldn't be able to; not to mention indigo/violet veils. At the very least nothing can come, or be placed within 20ft of me; 40 ft unless they have a CL higher than mine...which is unlikely.

Also, I can defeat a neutronium golem rather easily, so its no big deal if they gate one...or a thousand in.
: Re: Azrael
: Bauglir September 22, 2010, 02:13:32 AM
I suppose a Greater Deity of Time (by Dicefreaks rules) could probably do it by annulling Azrael's temporal accelerations and time stops while ignoring his antimagic fields and dropping Epic Spells. That Salient Divine Abilities plus Epic Spellcasting seem to be the most plausible solutions is not really a good sign, I think. Mind you, I don't have time to figure something out, but I think my entry for the Iron Siege 2 years ago might be a solid stalemate. Not that that really says much, considering it was an incorporeal dry demilich deity with the highest level Rejuvenation SDA who travelled around in a sphere of annihilation modified by epic spells to be immune to the only known methods of destroying one. Its caster level was, ah, nothing compared to Azrael's, in any case, since I think Fusion cheese was explicitly banned and I wouldn't have used it anyway.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 22, 2010, 03:22:11 AM
I suppose a Greater Deity of Time (by Dicefreaks rules) could probably do it by annulling Azrael's temporal accelerations and time stops while ignoring his antimagic fields and dropping Epic Spells. That Salient Divine Abilities plus Epic Spellcasting seem to be the most plausible solutions is not really a good sign, I think. Mind you, I don't have time to figure something out, but I think my entry for the Iron Siege 2 years ago might be a solid stalemate. Not that that really says much, considering it was an incorporeal dry demilich deity with the highest level Rejuvenation SDA who travelled around in a sphere of annihilation modified by epic spells to be immune to the only known methods of destroying one. Its caster level was, ah, nothing compared to Azrael's, in any case, since I think Fusion cheese was explicitly banned and I wouldn't have used it anyway.

Well, it might be able to get through the AMF with epic spells but not the veils or the suppressing fields (unless higher CL)...but I mean hes also completely immune to everything as well, including damage so you would have to dispel him first...which he is also well protected against...and even if you do hell just revive in a couple of hours when his psicrystal comes out of time hop; and that's something no one can prevent from occurring since its done in my closed off demiplane within a demiplane.

But yeah, it would probably be a stalemate, but as Kell stated, you don't need that much to stalemate him.
: Re: Azrael
: The_Mad_Linguist September 22, 2010, 03:27:06 AM
Eh, there are ways of destroying planes.  Some of which are pretty easy to do. 

I figure I can just wipe out the ethereal, which should take out any demiplanes created via genesis as well. 
: Re: Azrael
: bearsarebrown September 22, 2010, 10:16:21 AM
Eh, there are ways of destroying planes.  Some of which are pretty easy to do. 
How?
: Re: Azrael
: KellKheraptis September 22, 2010, 10:20:53 AM
Eh, there are ways of destroying planes.  Some of which are pretty easy to do. 
How?

NI Lingering Breath+NI Spreading Breath functionally does it.  Level 1 dragonborn with a flaw at that.  Um...my Red Wizard can do it to a planet anyhow with little trouble.  And Epic Spells can affect whole planes.
: Re: Azrael
: bearsarebrown September 22, 2010, 11:09:58 AM
That destroys everything on the plane. But can you actually destroy the plane?

All those Metabreath feats do is make the plane uncomfortable to Plane Shift to. I want to remove the ability to even Shift there.
: Re: Azrael
: Mixster September 22, 2010, 11:47:16 AM
How do you get around not rolling a one on the CoP other int check to not decrease your charisma and int to 8 for 5 weeks?
Take 10 on it.
Ah then we do not read take 10 the same way.

Cool.
: Re: Azrael
: KellKheraptis September 22, 2010, 12:33:20 PM
That destroys everything on the plane. But can you actually destroy the plane?

All those Metabreath feats do is make the plane uncomfortable to Plane Shift to. I want to remove the ability to even Shift there.

3000 mile radius x 150 blasts of this size x 2 twinned, think that covers every geometrically possible part of a planet?  Going off even something Earth-sized, that's doable with merely 4 of those spheres.
: Re: Azrael
: Bauglir September 22, 2010, 12:53:48 PM
That destroys everything on the plane. But can you actually destroy the plane?

All those Metabreath feats do is make the plane uncomfortable to Plane Shift to. I want to remove the ability to even Shift there.

3000 mile radius x 150 blasts of this size x 2 twinned, think that covers every geometrically possible part of a planet?  Going off even something Earth-sized, that's doable with merely 4 of those spheres.

Yes, but the space it occupied still exists. The plane may be empty, but it is still a plane. This is a question of making Hell not be there anymore.
: Re: Azrael
: bearsarebrown September 22, 2010, 01:19:30 PM
Yes, but the space it occupied still exists. The plane may be empty, but it is still a plane. This is a question of making Hell not be there anymore.
Yes, this is what I mean. Is there such affect short of open ended epic magic/SDAs?
: Re: Azrael
: The_Mad_Linguist September 22, 2010, 02:15:19 PM
How do you get around not rolling a one on the CoP other int check to not decrease your charisma and int to 8 for 5 weeks?
Take 10 on it.
Ah then we do not read take 10 the same way.

Cool.
There isn't any other way to read it.

It's an ability check, you aren't distracted, you can take 10.
: Re: Azrael
: BeholderSlayer September 22, 2010, 04:51:22 PM
How do you get around not rolling a one on the CoP other int check to not decrease your charisma and int to 8 for 5 weeks?
Take 10 on it.
Ah then we do not read take 10 the same way.

Cool.
There isn't any other way to read it.

It's an ability check, you aren't distracted, you can take 10.
I had a whole debate about this on GitP. Some people think that COP is distracting AND that you are threatened by it. Of course, nothing that I said ever changed that.
: Re: Azrael
: PhaedrusXY September 22, 2010, 04:53:30 PM
How do you get around not rolling a one on the CoP other int check to not decrease your charisma and int to 8 for 5 weeks?
Take 10 on it.
Ah then we do not read take 10 the same way.

Cool.
There isn't any other way to read it.

It's an ability check, you aren't distracted, you can take 10.
I had a whole debate about this on GitP. Some people think that COP is distracting AND that you are threatened by it. Of course, nothing that I said ever changed that.
And like I said in another thread, some people still think the world is flat. There might even be some overlap between the two groups. ;)
: Re: Azrael
: BeholderSlayer September 22, 2010, 05:10:41 PM
How do you get around not rolling a one on the CoP other int check to not decrease your charisma and int to 8 for 5 weeks?
Take 10 on it.
Ah then we do not read take 10 the same way.

Cool.
There isn't any other way to read it.

It's an ability check, you aren't distracted, you can take 10.
I had a whole debate about this on GitP. Some people think that COP is distracting AND that you are threatened by it. Of course, nothing that I said ever changed that.
And like I said in another thread, some people still think the world is flat. There might even be some overlap between the two groups. ;)
Heh, truth. Believe me, I tried my best. Any advice on what I should say if I find myself in that situation again? Or should I just not care and not try to prove somebody wrong on the internet (c)....
: Re: Azrael
: The_Mad_Linguist September 22, 2010, 05:26:22 PM
How do you get around not rolling a one on the CoP other int check to not decrease your charisma and int to 8 for 5 weeks?
Take 10 on it.
Ah then we do not read take 10 the same way.

Cool.
There isn't any other way to read it.

It's an ability check, you aren't distracted, you can take 10.
I had a whole debate about this on GitP. Some people think that COP is distracting AND that you are threatened by it. Of course, nothing that I said ever changed that.
There was a whole debate on GitP about whether or not sorcerers were spontaneous spellcasters.
: Re: Azrael
: Bozwevial September 22, 2010, 05:33:28 PM
How do you get around not rolling a one on the CoP other int check to not decrease your charisma and int to 8 for 5 weeks?
Take 10 on it.
Ah then we do not read take 10 the same way.

Cool.
There isn't any other way to read it.

It's an ability check, you aren't distracted, you can take 10.
I had a whole debate about this on GitP. Some people think that COP is distracting AND that you are threatened by it. Of course, nothing that I said ever changed that.
There was a whole debate on GitP about whether or not sorcerers were spontaneous spellcasters.
The way I see it, if the action on which you're taking 10 counted as a distraction, you could never take 10.
: Re: Azrael
: BeholderSlayer September 22, 2010, 06:05:08 PM
How do you get around not rolling a one on the CoP other int check to not decrease your charisma and int to 8 for 5 weeks?
Take 10 on it.
Ah then we do not read take 10 the same way.

Cool.
There isn't any other way to read it.

It's an ability check, you aren't distracted, you can take 10.
I had a whole debate about this on GitP. Some people think that COP is distracting AND that you are threatened by it. Of course, nothing that I said ever changed that.
There was a whole debate on GitP about whether or not sorcerers were spontaneous spellcasters.
The way I see it, if the action on which you're taking 10 counted as a distraction, you could never take 10.
I also read it this way, and that you could never take 10 if the action you were taking 10 on cannot be the threat, because then you could never take 10 on disabling traps.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 23, 2010, 01:10:27 AM
On the planar debate...Yes, while that would destroy everything on the plane not immune to your energy type, I fail to see how it would destroy the plane itself.

Azrael could easily destroy every living (and unliving) thing in all of the planes in a single action; however, this doesn't destroy the planes themselves.

I figure I can just wipe out the ethereal, which should take out any demiplanes created via genesis as well. 

That's your logic. Even if this were possible it doesn't necessarily mean that something that was necessary to create another thing is still required in order for that thing to continue existing.
: Re: Azrael
: The_Mad_Linguist September 23, 2010, 02:40:10 AM
I believe demiplanes are described as floating in the ethereal.  That is, they're a subset of it.  So if I destroy the ethereal, I destroy everything inside it.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 23, 2010, 03:08:39 AM
Still didn't describe how you would accomplish such a feat...unless this is one of your most closely guarded "secrets" I don't believe there is such a way...short of a DM fiat of course :P
: Re: Azrael
: The_Mad_Linguist September 23, 2010, 03:15:18 AM
Drop a Sphere of Annihilation into a Well of Worlds.  Get the sphere via epic binder shenanigans.  It takes 6+d12 minutes to completely destroy the plane, but whatever.
: Re: Azrael
: Bauglir September 23, 2010, 04:55:02 PM
Drop a Sphere of Annihilation into a Well of Worlds.  Get the sphere via epic binder shenanigans.  It takes 6+d12 minutes to completely destroy the plane, but whatever.

Oh, right. Thank you, Elder Evils. I think it counts as a stalemate if you destroy all that exists, though. Bear in mind, it specifically erases "all existence", so apparently all the other planes go too.
: Re: Azrael
: The_Mad_Linguist September 23, 2010, 05:05:20 PM
In context, I'm pretty sure the "existence" just refers to the infinite space within the material plane.
: Re: Azrael
: Bozwevial September 23, 2010, 05:12:55 PM
In context, I'm pretty sure the "existence" just refers to the infinite space within the material plane.
Otherwise there would have been a lot more interest in the plan by various deities.
: Re: Azrael
: betrayor September 23, 2010, 06:25:07 PM
@Azrael
How come you didn't add divine ranks to your creation?
One would think that it would be the logical thing to do.....
: Re: Azrael
: Bauglir September 24, 2010, 02:15:48 AM
I found the Terminator. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19861610/TGs_Pun-Pun_Challenger:_34;The_Terminator34;_%28Finalized%29?pg=1) Unfortunately it's 30th level. I no longer know what build Kell was referring to, but it sounded interesting. Funny story, I only found the Terminator searching for PhoenixInferno's legendary post with the "Do you see a sign saying 'Over 6 billion builds served'?" line, or whatever the exact wording was. Anyway, I also suspect Azrael could pull the major trick this build relies on (repetitious Temporal Reiterations to travel back to before your foe was a threat), and since each build assumes it existed before the other, it's probably not much use.

EDIT: I'm going to see if I can find his work for the no-ship, which was essentially supposed to be a method of being undetectable to anything, including Pun-Pun.

FURTHER EDIT: He never finished it, but the gist of the best idea he had was constantly teleporting randomly between linked portals passing through the Far Realms, thus giving himself indeterminate location and time, and thus making himself untargetable by anything. Unfortunately, since the quantum physics upon this relies doesn't exist in D&D, I don't think it works, always.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 24, 2010, 04:03:04 PM
@Azrael
How come you didn't add divine ranks to your creation?
One would think that it would be the logical thing to do.....

Not really. He doesn't want to have divine ranks, he can kill all the Gods as is so whats the point in being one; and thus subject to their rules? Also, other than using the same, or similar, trick as pun-pun I don't know how to legally add divine ranks to a char. Besides, this char was meant to be my ultimate PvP 20th level guy...if such a thing ever occurred. I'm sure he wouldn't have been allowed in such a circumstance if he had divine ranks. When someone is a god it becomes easy to understand why they are as powerful as they are. I wanted the pleasure of saying I have a non-god, legal 20th level character, that's all-powerful.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but don't gods die if they have no more worshipers...sounds like a major weakness to me.

: Re: Azrael
: betrayor September 24, 2010, 06:48:17 PM
@Azrael
How come you didn't add divine ranks to your creation?
One would think that it would be the logical thing to do.....

Not really. He doesn't want to have divine ranks, he can kill all the Gods as is so whats the point in being one; and thus subject to their rules? Also, other than using the same, or similar, trick as pun-pun I don't know how to legally add divine ranks to a char. Besides, this char was meant to be my ultimate PvP 20th level guy...if such a thing ever occurred. I'm sure he wouldn't have been allowed in such a circumstance if he had divine ranks. When someone is a god it becomes easy to understand why they are as powerful as they are. I wanted the pleasure of saying I have a non-god, legal 20th level character, that's all-powerful.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but don't gods die if they have no more worshipers...sounds like a major weakness to me.


I think that part is only FR specific......
About the way I don't think that is Pun-pun specific anyone with enough power can do it.....
: Re: Azrael
: Bauglir September 24, 2010, 06:59:16 PM
Actually, I'm not so sure if he can defeat the gods. IIRC, the most powerful ones simply cannot be permanently killed by anything without divine ranks, and there's at least one SDA that causes instant death, no save, to any non-god that perceives the deity. Salient Divine Abilities are pretty gamebreaking, after all.
: Re: Azrael
: Bozwevial September 24, 2010, 07:04:09 PM
About the way I don't think that is Pun-pun specific anyone with enough power can do it.....
What, the Ice Assassin trick? Yeah, wealth isn't a problem by that point and the XP can be mitigated. The only real problem with the trick is that if the deity in question has taken anywhere near this level of precautions, the ice assassin can at best achieve a stalemate. Maybe not even that, since the deity has had time to prepare.

Actually, I'm not so sure if he can defeat the gods. IIRC, the most powerful ones simply cannot be permanently killed by anything without divine ranks, and there's at least one SDA that causes instant death, no save, to any non-god that perceives the deity. Salient Divine Abilities are pretty gamebreaking, after all.
That's why you pick on Imhotep first. :D
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 24, 2010, 11:20:16 PM
Also, I would assume its a "death effect," which hes immune to, and I believe it does require some form of LoE IIRC, which no one can get to him.

Also, that divine salient ability you're thinking of only works if the gods aren't killed on their own plane...if they are, they die as normal. So he will just have to confront them on their own plane :)
: Re: Azrael
: fallen-angle September 25, 2010, 08:53:38 AM
Okay, lets try this. Artificer to the rescue.

In this instance Artificer 17/Heir of Sybris 3 (for free Major Creation).
Feats: Irresistible Spell, Lesser Dragon Mark, Metamagic Spell Trigger, Extend Spell, Persist Spell. Other general feats for speed crafting, the previous feats are the only ones needed for the killing.

Step one is obvious, use Loves Pain combos for infinite experience (just for crafting purposes) and Major Creation (2/day for no cost) to generate unspeakable wealth. This will be used to craft. At the incredible rate at which master artificers craft, plus the massive time during which Azrael is preparing. It should be possible to craft a modest 10 of every relevant item.

Notably Items Crafted:
-14,400 Scarabs of Invulnerability (no slots), enough to have one active ever second of every hour of every day (meaning total immunity to damage). This number is completely unnecessary, far fewer are needed.
-12 Rings of Spell Battle (no slot), each enhanced with an Irresistible Magic Aura spell to look like simple nonmagical screws.
-Countless scrolls of wish, not to use. These will be traded and sold.

Step two: use Genisis, craft a Demiplane. In this case it will be a demiplane made of unbreakable (or as close to as possible) metals. Time there shall move 10,000 times slower (arbitrary massive number). Use planar bubble to ignore this slowness, become a lich, and hide my phylactory at the center of this plane. Shield it with divination protection, so it is harder to find. Then use my control of the plane to cause the phylactory to move around. Persist the Evil Weather spell daily or until it becomes permanent (Evil weather's Violet Rain shuts down ALL divine magic from any source in the area, no SR, no save. Effects things that are currently cast.) Finally, carpet the entire demiplane (save for the area where the pylactory hides) in Energy Transformation Fields (the spell is irrelevant). While present on the plane the Artificer will use his control over its topography to make a space where there is no Energy Transformation Field (An underground bubble).

Step Three: become immune to magic. Easily done via shape-change (most golem forms will do). Now go out trading. Collect, via any means possible, as many artifacts as he can. Bribe gods, adventurers, etc. Whatever is necessary to collect as many artifacts as humanly possible (they don't even have to be good ones). Take them back to the Demiplane, stockpile them, and wait for Azrael to come into power.

THE KILLING:
Once Azrael begins his reign of terror (which can be predicted by the MASSIVE cult of worship he commands), threaten him. Doesn't matter how, any plan to kill him will work. Azrael becomes aware of this plan instantly the day it is conceived, the researches the Artificer. He knows that his plane defeats divinely based powers, that he has a phylacory, and that he is massing divine artifacts, no doubt for some nefarious deed.

Problems. Because divine magic does not function on the plane, ANYTHING that has anything even remotely to do with divinity will fail. This includes divine spells, items, and even divinely based class abilities. Initiate of Mystra, stops working. Divine Metamagic, stops working. Divine Companion's Shielding stops working as well. To attack the artificer on his own plane is suicide. Assuming he tries, the following scenario occurs.
[spoiler]
-Azrael arrives, instantly divine magics stop and his defenses are greatly reduced. Attempts to cast spell result only in spawning Glitterdust from the Energy Transformation Fields. All magical attempts to leave the plane fail, all magical attempts to contact for help fail, Azrael is a prisoner on the plane and eventually dies of starvation.

There is probably a way to trick him onto this plane by using preposterous bluff to trick the outsiders he contacts into telling him it is safe. Not needed. He has other methods, discussed below.-
[/spoiler]

Instead Azrael has another, equally viable option. Just wait for the moron to come and attack him, then fuck him with infinite actions. And the artificer will come. He maintains his golem form, set about with his damage immunity and rings of spell battle. Beside him floats and disk of energy piled high with artifacts to use in the coming battle (the stupid sod thinks a divine arsenal will help). The artificer arrives, Azrael's contingencies fire, and he immediately acts 12,000,000 times.

However, as his target is currently a damage immune, magic immune, soulless lich, he must do something about those spells. Easy enough, Disjunction will break those easily. He casts disjunction and the Artificer immediately uses his ring of spell battle to redirect the spell to his pile of artifacts. Azrael's caster level is phenomenal, he destroys all of them. This incurs a proceeding 1,000 will saves. DC 25. Should he botch any of them, his ability to use magic will be permanently removed. No force can restore it, not even wish or miracle. There is a 1/20,000 chance that he will not botch. Assuming he rerolls every die, that is a mere 1/10,000.

If he fails the roll he then has another 10,000,000 standard actions to move and make single attacks. These are meaningless. At the end of his spasm of panic the Artificer uses his own disjunction, and then casts an Irresistable Gate. Pulling Azrael to the Artificer's demiplane. There Azrael has ample time to think over his crushing hubris, before hunger and madness take his thoughts all together.

Regardless, the Artificer takes his phylactory and leaves, visiting again only to renew spells and make sure Azrael's prison remains unbroken. He begins to plan again, there will be more like this upstart psion who believe they can control the world. It is up to him to stop them. Hmmm...an entrepreneurial little Kobold seems to be fussing about with magics, time to jump off a cliff and see where that will lead...

: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 25, 2010, 07:25:39 PM
Errr....so how exactly do you survive when he just stands next to you while you're inside his antimagic field?

Do you honestly think Azrael gives a shit what magical items or spells you have active on yourself? He would never bother to use Disjunction on you since his AMF just nullifies everything without even having to make a single check. And guess what, since I have initiate of mystra I can cast any spell on you while you're inside the field and you cant do anything about it. This includes, but is not limited to...

1. Holding you immobile with a telekinesis effect which you cannot escape since any freedom of movement you might have would be nullified by the field and any grapple check you're capable of making is pitiful compared to mine.

2. Casting an irresistible, supernatural, flesh to ice spell on you...you don't die, he just picks up your body, takes it to one of his googleplex castles inside his plane and places you there, after which he casts ice shape, turning you into a nice ice sculpture of a penguin...for all time...he likes penguins...or he can cast an irresistible crack ice on you.

3. Killing you with a billion crystal shards

4. Casts an irresistible, supernatural, polymorph any object, turning you into a flee...or a rock...something that would be permanent.

5. Casting an irresisbile, supernatural feeblemind on you...then making you my mindless pet by following up with a irresistible ensnare the heart.

6. Trap you inside a khyber dragonshard with an irresistible, supernatural khyber trap.

Hell, he doesn't even really need the AMF if hes casting something as a supernatural spell at you. You can be immune to magic and it will still affect you :D


Also...I don't need to eat...and I don't age...so I would never die from starvation...or anything...Not to mention time would just reverse itself as soon as my psicrystal comes out of time hop and finds out that it cannot contact me. And talk about madness...Azrael has spent literally millions of years inside his temporal acceleration...I think hell survive 24 hours of loneliness until his psycrystal reverses time.




Nice try, but you fail...like many before you. Azrael laughs at the upstart artificer that thought he knew him well enough to surmise how he would act in a real battle, let alone believe he was powerful enough to actually defeat him...he will make a nice ice penguin statue :D Hmmm...a Master Transmographist that claims to be all powerful, looks like Azrael may need to cut him down to size as well.
: Re: Azrael
: fallen-angle September 25, 2010, 11:17:12 PM
Oh good an argument, I love these.

You are right about the antimagic field, Artificer will have to come under the cover of Evil Weather. That will solve that problem.

However, lets take issue with your VERY liberal interpretation of the COP spell.

You appear to be treating COP as a form of absolute knowledge to answer any question perfectly. That is CLEARLY not what COP does. Contact Other Plane puts you in touch with a powerful supernatural being who answers your questions with one word answers to the best of his ability. This means that, too find out everything you'd have to question every single possible threat. You'd have to ask multiple times at that, and even then they still might not say "yes" or "no". Questions they cannot answer (yes, that is right, it says in the spell that there are questions that cannot be answered) are given uncertain responses.

Now to make this matter worse, you have also taken an interpretation that the spell doesn't answer perfectly questions about Azrael (You claim he is immune to divination, and no one can learn his name. Problem is, by your use of COP, ANY question appears to be answerable with a yes or no.) So either your divination defense is meaningless in the face of COP OR COP is not effective against creatures who are defended against divination.

Of those two, the second interpretation seems more reasonable. After all, the supernatural creature would have to use divination to answer your questions in the first place. Therefore, Azrael is one of two things:
-Completely subject to his very own trick of asking divine beings for answers to his every weakness.
or
-Unable to perfectly research every threat, every day.
________________________________________________________________________________________

Now, on to killing him:

1. Holding him works, assuming you have caught him away from evil weather and you have your antimagic field you can keep a hold on him quite nicely. Not a means to an end though.

2. He is a lich, polymorph effects don't work on him. If needs be he could also gain the shape-changer subtype, that'd be a way to escape such a spell.

3. Crystal shards kill him good and well, assuming he forgot to bring Evil Weather with him and you locked him in an antimagic field. He's a lich though, so he'll come back in a couple of days.

4. Polymorph again, Lich is immune (did you even bother to read?)

5. Mind affect, once again the lich is immune. This one is obvious, or perhaps you assumed he was an idiot an unprepared for your attacks?

6. His soul is not present to trap. This is why he decided to be a lich in the first place.

Supernatural Spell is a problems, yes. Could kill him repeatedly. But as he is immune to death effects, polymorphy, ability damage, actual damage, mind effects, and anything that would seal his soul...most spells won't really do anything.

He is very reliant on the Initiate of Mystra trick. Which can be twarted through several means. How's this for a fun one!

Wizard Shapechange's into a Zodar. Giving him one free wish. He uses said wish to wish for an item in Azrael's possession. Given that Azrael would never allow such a thing to happen Wish will do the next best thing, it takes him to Azrael (this is supported as a consequence in Wish's text, read it before you rebutt). He doesn't need to know where Azrael is, or have means of penetrating dimention locks, nothing. Wish just does.

Arriving Azrael the wizard immediately begins to cast timestop. Azrael responds with his own immediate response (lets say a contingency). The wizard's contingent timestop also fires. Azrael has to celerity. The wizard casts celerity. Casts timestop, uses Uncanny Forethought to cast Evil Weather, and the remaining time to put an antimagic field and shaped stone dome over Azrael. Time starts, Initiate of Mystra stops, Azrael is trapped. Wizard has his hulking hurler friend hit Azrael for 100,000 damage.

Remember. If COP allows Azrael to predict all of this, the wizard can also use COP to predict that Azrael will predict, and also when Azrael will go hunting someone. Then execute his plan the moment Azrael's burst of actions ends. If COP doesn't break divination immunity, Azrael cannot predict any of this, because the wizard cast Mind Blank.

You're move, please try to be civil. No matter how powerful Azrael might seem he is still a pathetic wart compared to Pun Pun. There is always something stronger.
: Re: Azrael
: fallen-angle September 26, 2010, 12:46:03 AM
Also, please explain how he can fuse over 2,000 people when fusion says:

"You cannot use fission on a fused being."

Unless there is some way to get around that piece of text then the build simply doesn't work.
: Re: Azrael
: The_Mad_Linguist September 26, 2010, 12:52:02 AM
Can't use fission, not fusion.

That said, I think multifusion could easily fall under "same effect in different strengths"
: Re: Azrael
: fallen-angle September 26, 2010, 01:09:42 AM
Right-o.

Though, why bother wasting your time with Thrallherd, or even killing opponents for that matter. Any Psion could pull this crap with the time he is taking.

Indeed Azrael would be an idiot to kill anyone. Just fuse with them and become a singularity. That way no revival tricks will work.

All that said, couldn't H.I.V.E. kill him with its massively overwhelming numbers?
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 26, 2010, 01:24:35 AM
Oh good an argument, I love these.

You are right about the antimagic field, Artificer will have to come under the cover of Evil Weather. That will solve that problem.

However, lets take issue with your VERY liberal interpretation of the COP spell.

You appear to be treating COP as a form of absolute knowledge to answer any question perfectly. That is CLEARLY not what COP does. Contact Other Plane puts you in touch with a powerful supernatural being who answers your questions with one word answers to the best of his ability. This means that, too find out everything you'd have to question every single possible threat. You'd have to ask multiple times at that, and even then they still might not say "yes" or "no". Questions they cannot answer (yes, that is right, it says in the spell that there are questions that cannot be answered) are given uncertain responses.

Now to make this matter worse, you have also taken an interpretation that the spell doesn't answer perfectly questions about Azrael (You claim he is immune to divination, and no one can learn his name. Problem is, by your use of COP, ANY question appears to be answerable with a yes or no.) So either your divination defense is meaningless in the face of COP OR COP is not effective against creatures who are defended against divination.

Of those two, the second interpretation seems more reasonable. After all, the supernatural creature would have to use divination to answer your questions in the first place. Therefore, Azrael is one of two things:
-Completely subject to his very own trick of asking divine beings for answers to his every weakness.
or
-Unable to perfectly research every threat, every day.


You clearly don't understand how COP works or bothered to read my char. There are certain methods (Phaedrus' idea, not mine) to ensure you get a correct response. And since I have an unlimited amount of castings I can do so until I am 99.9999999999999999999999% positive all the responses were correct...

First of all I conceded quite a few posts ago that he is no longer Vecna Blooded; and not for the reasons you specified. If you are referring to the mind blank he can simply dismiss it before casting his CoP...all done safely within his own time stream and recast before anything could possibly effect him...So I get the best of both, I am able to perfectly research every threat, and I'm not subject to my own trick :D

Now, on to killing him:

1. Holding him works, assuming you have caught him away from evil weather and you have your antimagic field you can keep a hold on him quite nicely. Not a means to an end though.

2. He is a lich, polymorph effects don't work on him. If needs be he could also gain the shape-changer subtype, that'd be a way to escape such a spell.

3. Crystal shards kill him good and well, assuming he forgot to bring Evil Weather with him and you locked him in an antimagic field. He's a lich though, so he'll come back in a couple of days.

4. Polymorph again, Lich is immune (did you even bother to read?)

5. Mind affect, once again the lich is immune. This one is obvious, or perhaps you assumed he was an idiot an unprepared for your attacks?

6. His soul is not present to trap. This is why he decided to be a lich in the first place.

Supernatural Spell is a problems, yes. Could kill him repeatedly. But as he is immune to death effects, polymorphy, ability damage, actual damage, mind effects, and anything that would seal his soul...most spells won't really do anything.


I guess I missed the Lich part...oh well, I cant turn you into a flea or turtle or something...

Guess what? Flesh to Ice isn't a polymorph effect, its transmutation, Which means you're lich is still an ice penguin :D

and since I'm assuming you mean "gain the shapechanger subtype" by using shapechange...not gonna work since I'm doing it while you're in my AMF. Not that it states anywhere in the back of the MM that shapechanger subtype makes you immune to such effects.

(http://www.kieranoshea.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/ice_penguin_york_xmas_06.jpg)

Because Azrael just looooves penguins.

He is very reliant on the Initiate of Mystra trick. Which can be twarted through several means. How's this for a fun one!

Wizard Shapechange's into a Zodar. Giving him one free wish. He uses said wish to wish for an item in Azrael's possession. Given that Azrael would never allow such a thing to happen Wish will do the next best thing, it takes him to Azrael (this is supported as a consequence in Wish's text, read it before you rebutt). He doesn't need to know where Azrael is, or have means of penetrating dimention locks, nothing. Wish just does.

Wow, what a completely biased and ridiculous interpretation of what wish does...if you're the DM then, yeah, you can make wish work that way...does it work that way by RAW...Nope :D The spell would simply fail...they can do that you know...

Arriving Azrael the wizard immediately begins to cast timestop. Azrael responds with his own immediate response (lets say a contingency). The wizard's contingent timestop also fires. Azrael has to celerity. The wizard casts celerity. Casts timestop, uses Uncanny Forethought to cast Evil Weather, and the remaining time to put an antimagic field and shaped stone dome over Azrael. Time starts, Initiate of Mystra stops, Azrael is trapped. Wizard has his hulking hurler friend hit Azrael for 100,000 damage.

Remember. If COP allows Azrael to predict all of this, the wizard can also use COP to predict that Azrael will predict, and also when Azrael will go hunting someone. Then execute his plan the moment Azrael's burst of actions ends. If COP doesn't break divination immunity, Azrael cannot predict any of this, because the wizard cast Mind Blank.

You're move, please try to be civil. No matter how powerful Azrael might seem he is still a pathetic wart compared to Pun Pun. There is always something stronger.

As for the rest of it, ill try and make this simple.

1. Even if you were teleported to my location you would have to deal with my greater anticipate teleportation (active for about 2 whole miles around azrael at ALL TIMES). So immediately Azrael will know all about you (since he will just stop time and do another series of CoP), as well as you being delayed 3 whole rounds. He can then decide to either A: run away or B: place himself so that you will teleport directly into his AMF 3 rounds later and thus be completely and utterly helpless against him...its Ice Penguin time!

2. Since I am immune to divination and subject to the effects of a superior invisibility spell at all times you'll never know where I am, and even if you have true seeing youll have to be within 120 feet of me and in order to do that you either need to A: teleport (which means you get delayed 3 rounds and basically scream "Azrael, come and get me") or B: have to start over 10,000 ft away from me...oh but wait, I forgot to mention, I have an irresistible supernatural repulsion effect for 2 miles around me as well...so as soon as you move into that effect you will be able to move no further (I don't think even freedom of movement can save you from this one..but I could be wrong).

3. Since Azrael did CoP you he is fully aware of all your capabilities and knows the exact second you will face him, which means all he has to do is go into his temporal acceleration a second earlier and gain infinite actions. And no, you cant use your CoP to predict anything about Azrael, because as soon as you do use CoP on him you will have to contend with his prestidigitation contingency...which will alert him to someone CoPing him, which will just quicken your demise. Oh yeah...one more thing...Mind Blank doesn't work against CoP because it doesn't target you.

4. Your antimagic field would never work on me for 2 reasons

1. You cannot cast any spell (unless you beat my CL, which you already claimed you can not) within 40ft of me due to my suppression fields.

2. I have both indigo and violet veils active on myself 24/7, which blocks AMF.

5. I have actions you haven't even accounted for...first of all I have the readied standard action from eyes of the oracle to use, secondly I always have a readied standard action from my schismed mind casting synchronicity every round, thirdly I can use reacitve couterspell to counter any spell (due to my divine countermagic), fourthly, since I maxed out my magic domain affiliation I can counter another spell as a free action once per day, fifthly, my 'greater celerity' actually gives me two actions since my schismed mind should get an action as well, and finally, I have two contingencies for time stop :D...so even if it did come down to actions I still beat you.


And not so much on the Pun-Pun...we have already established on an earlier post that that only way for Pun-Pun to beat me was to use his manipulate form to give him an ability called "Kill Azrael."

2 problems with this...

1. That ability is questionably TO since its giving him an ability that doesn't exist in any book source

2. Since Azrael can effectively gain manipulate form, same as Pun-Pun (if he desired) it becomes a contest of who existed first (thus, who will create the "kill other" ability first), and since there is no way to prove such a thing (unless you're the omniscifer). Therefore, you must either concede that they have a gentleman's agreement to leave each other alone, or that the manipulate form ability cannot grant abilities that do not exist.

Right-o.

Though, why bother wasting your time with Thrallherd, or even killing opponents for that matter. Any Psion could pull this crap with the time he is taking.

Indeed Azrael would be an idiot to kill anyone. Just fuse with them and become a singularity. That way no revival tricks will work.

All that said, couldn't H.I.V.E. kill him with its massively overwhelming numbers?

Reheheeaaaaallly...please do explain how? "Any psion" cannot possibly come close to doing everything Azrael is doing...especially since most of it relies on having a continuous (not pp recharge) flow of pp, and the ability to have everything he buffs himself with be essentially permanent.

And if you read fusion, it clearly states "willing creature."

: Re: Azrael
: Lunaramblings September 26, 2010, 01:50:06 AM
Sorry, maybe I missed it, but how is your CL so high?

I didn't see anything in your notes or on your sheet that would justify such a high CL.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 26, 2010, 01:51:52 AM
Sorry, maybe I missed it, but how is your CL so high?

I didn't see anything in your notes or on your sheet that would justify such a high CL.

Then you didn't look hard enough, I have a specific note for it...

3.   Azrael could theoretically cast additional greater consumptive fields thus giving him a CL of a googolplex; however, this would take actual time since he would have to exit his temporal acceleration to affect creatures. Therefore, he voluntarily keeps his CL at 2053.


: Re: Azrael
: fallen-angle September 26, 2010, 01:57:35 AM
See, that whole immune to divination thing, that is where your plans collapse. The very same way Azrael is immune to divination, just about any character can be immune. Thus he cannot COP to learn about anything they do. And don't claim that because he is targeting himself that he can learn who is attacking him, that is beyond stupid.

Mind Blank removes its user from all visions, divinations, etc. in which they would be subject. So at best the gods could tell Azrael how he will mysteriously die. Not who killed him. Not where they are.But don't take my word for it:

"The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all."

COP is a divination spell that gathers information. It cannot be more clear than that. Azrael attempts to gather information using a divination spell, Mind Blank see's that there is a spell being used to gather information about the subject and stops it. It doesn't matter that you are targeting yourself, the spell is still gathering information and Mind Blank protects its subject from it. This one-ups WISH and MIRACLE. COP doesn't work.

That said, can Azrael:
A) Get around the effects of Evil Weather, which deactivates all his divine abilities.
B) Attack into the demiplane explicitly created to stop him?
C) (Unrelated to the Artificer) Avoid the focused assault of brilliantly powerful and prepared Sorcerers that H.I.V.E. Could produce?

Also, how would he get around a god of death using its divine "Kill a mortal" ability. Not that it has anything to do with the argument.
: Re: Azrael
: X-Codes September 26, 2010, 01:59:52 AM
Why is this thread still going?  Isn't everyone satisfied yet that Azrael is just some guy that uses the same kinda crap every other Wizard 20 does, except that the crap he pulls is backed up by amusing-but-ultimately-useless 2k modifiers to saving throws, etc?
: Re: Azrael
: fallen-angle September 26, 2010, 02:05:44 AM
Why is this thread still going?  Isn't everyone satisfied yet that Azrael is just some guy that uses the same kinda crap every other Wizard 20 does, except that the crap he pulls is backed up by amusing-but-ultimately-useless 2k modifiers to saving throws, etc?

Because people love to argue? I know I do.

It should probably be moved to the "You Break It, You Buy It" sub-forum though. As this build and the surrounding discussion are blatantly beyond playability.
: Re: Azrael
: Lunaramblings September 26, 2010, 02:08:42 AM
Sorry, maybe I missed it, but how is your CL so high?

I didn't see anything in your notes or on your sheet that would justify such a high CL.

Then you didn't look hard enough, I have a specific note for it...

3.   Azrael could theoretically cast additional greater consumptive fields thus giving him a CL of a googolplex; however, this would take actual time since he would have to exit his temporal acceleration to affect creatures. Therefore, he voluntarily keeps his CL at 2053.

So you are using consumptive field to get it this high? Sorry, it is implied you are not using consumptive, field, but yet you are now implying you are. Also, not sure how you are getting that to be constant, since you would need to kill 2033 creatures at a time for this to work and they have to be at 0 or fewer hit points when you cast it, and they have to be within 30ft of you. Just trying to wrap my head around how you managed to pull it off to that level?



: Re: Azrael
: Lunaramblings September 26, 2010, 02:22:58 AM
Also, how are your saves and such so high, the only thing I could assume is a misreading of Fusion. The only thing that you get to add on with fusion are your hit points. Everything else you only get the best of either.


"Likewise, all feats, racial abilities, and class features are pooled (if both creatures have the same ability, the fused being gains it only once). For each of the six ability scores, the fused being’s score is the higher of yours and the other creature’s, and the fused being also has the higher Hit Dice or manifester level—this effectively means the fused being uses the better saving throws, attack bonus, and skill modifiers of either member, and it manifests powers at the higher of the manifester levels that you or the other creature possessed before becoming fused."

Sorry, just want to be sure I understand where all these bonuses are coming from.

Also how are you wearing 4 rings and two glove slot items?
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 26, 2010, 02:33:20 AM
See, that whole immune to divination thing, that is where your plans collapse. The very same way Azrael is immune to divination, just about any character can be immune. Thus he cannot COP to learn about anything they do. And don't claim that because he is targeting himself that he can learn who is attacking him, that is beyond stupid.

Mind Blank removes its user from all visions, divinations, etc. in which they would be subject. So at best the gods could tell Azrael how he will mysteriously die. Not who killed him. Not where they are.But don't take my word for it:

"The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all."

COP is a divination spell that gathers information. It cannot be more clear than that. Azrael attempts to gather information using a divination spell, Mind Blank see's that there is a spell being used to gather information about the subject and stops it. It doesn't matter that you are targeting yourself, the spell is still gathering information and Mind Blank protects its subject from it. This one-ups WISH and MIRACLE. COP doesn't work.

That's what I would have said about Mind Blank before, but that's not how it works in terms of CoP; this has been debated well before this thread...anyone else care to take this one, I'm tired of explaining it...Kell perhaps...

That said, can Azrael:
A) Get around the effects of Evil Weather, which deactivates all his divine abilities.
B) Attack into the demiplane explicitly created to stop him?
C) (Unrelated to the Artificer) Avoid the focused assault of brilliantly powerful and prepared Sorcerers that H.I.V.E. Could produce?

Also, how would he get around a god of death using its divine "Kill a mortal" ability. Not that it has anything to do with the argument.

A. Doesn't really need his divine abilities to accomplish most things...so he can be in the storm. Or he can simply teleport outside its radius, simple as that. Also, I would think that even the rain needs LoE to take away his divine powers, which it doesn't get to him, not to mention its suppressed within a 40ft radius around him.

B. You can specifically prepare things to "stop" me, it doesn't mean they have any effect on me. Worst case, if he cannot, then its a stalemate...you stay in your plane and I get to go wherever I damn well please because I'm not afraid of coming out of my plane...so congrats, if that's the case then you just did what Kell proved you could do like 20 posts ago...

C. I honestly don't know what they can do but the same CoP, and Anticipate Teleportation, and Repulsion, etc applies to them as well...no matter how brilliantly planned they still need to get around my defenses -which is pretty much impossible no matter how many people or actions you have- and attack me before I can get my temporal acceleration off, thus gaining infinite actions.

D. I explained this before the "Life and Death" divine salient ability states that it works "as destruction," which is a death effect...which hes immune to.

Also, how are your saves and such so high, the only thing I could assume is a misreading of Fusion. The only thing that you get to add on with fusion are your hit points. Everything else you only get the best of either.


"Likewise, all feats, racial abilities, and class features are pooled (if both creatures have the same ability, the fused being gains it only once). For each of the six ability scores, the fused being’s score is the higher of yours and the other creature’s, and the fused being also has the higher Hit Dice or manifester level—this effectively means the fused being uses the better saving throws, attack bonus, and skill modifiers of either member, and it manifests powers at the higher of the manifester levels that you or the other creature possessed before becoming fused."

Sorry, just want to be sure I understand where all these bonuses are coming from.

Also how are you wearing 4 rings and two glove slot items?

1. Not what fusion states at all, I think you need to re-read it.

2. each time fusion is used the already fused being counts as the base creature, so lets say 2 creatures fuse, one has a 20 dex one has a 20 int, and lets say the rest of the scores are 10. The new being has 10, 20, 10, 20, 10, 10. If he fuses with a second being with a Wis of 20 (everything else 10) the new being will have 10, 20, 10, 20, 20, 10. It also states pp gets pooled, etc...as for the feats, they are different at the time of fusion, then once fused Azrael changes them with Psychic Reformation, that's how he gets so many.

3. He has the extra rings feat, and they are gloves of storing (casting gloves), they only take up one hand each. Pathfinder changed this to "it takes up both hand slots" but it says no such thing with 3.5.


Why is this thread still going?  Isn't everyone satisfied yet that Azrael is just some guy that uses the same kinda crap every other Wizard 20 does, except that the crap he pulls is backed up by amusing-but-ultimately-useless 2k modifiers to saving throws, etc?

Oh he can do much more than a 20th level wizard...you obviously didn't read the whole char; there's much beyond the "useless" saves and AC...we are talking about Azrael because hes on a whole other level...similar to Omniscifer, or Pun-Pun.


Anyway, I'm done for the night.
: Re: Azrael
: X-Codes September 26, 2010, 02:42:04 AM
Why is this thread still going?  Isn't everyone satisfied yet that Azrael is just some guy that uses the same kinda crap every other Wizard 20 does, except that the crap he pulls is backed up by amusing-but-ultimately-useless 2k modifiers to saving throws, etc?

Oh he can do much more than a 20th level wizard...you obviously didn't read the whole char; there's much beyond the "useless" saves and AC...we are talking about Azrael because hes on a whole other level...similar to Omniscifer, or Pun-Pun.


Anyway, I'm done for the night.
Spells noted in his tactics:
Genesis
MMM
Greater Consumptive Field
COP
Time Stop
Contingency...

Yeah, sure, he can use a few TO Psi tricks, too.  That's not special, it just saves him a few castings of COP.
: Re: Azrael
: fallen-angle September 26, 2010, 02:48:39 AM
C. I honestly don't know what they can do but the same CoP, and Anticipate Teleportation, and Repulsion, etc applies to them as well...no matter how brilliantly planned they still need to get around my defenses -which is pretty much impossible no matter how many people or actions you have- and attack me before I can get my temporal acceleration off, thus gaining infinite actions.

H.I.V.E. Is a colossal hivemind that consists of tens of thousands of people with a preposterous pool of sorcerer spell and an even higher CL than Azrael normally sports.

Unless Azrael can somehow take more immediate actions than the whole army of Sorcerers (which would require him to have over 1,000 swift actions per turn) they will be able to move in and dismantle his defenses piece by piece. Clerical parts of the hive take away the veils, Disjunction is pounded down 100 times, and then a massive storm of irresistible spells and compulsions come after.

Azrael's problem is that he is one person.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 26, 2010, 03:57:46 AM
H.I.V.E. Is a colossal hivemind that consists of tens of thousands of people with a preposterous pool of sorcerer spell and an even higher CL than Azrael normally sports.

Unless Azrael can somehow take more immediate actions than the whole army of Sorcerers (which would require him to have over 1,000 swift actions per turn) they will be able to move in and dismantle his defenses piece by piece. Clerical parts of the hive take away the veils, Disjunction is pounded down 100 times, and then a massive storm of irresistible spells and compulsions come after.

Azrael's problem is that he is one person.

Actually, his greatest strength is that he’s one person…

First of all, how do they even get near enough to attack him, or at the very least without him being aware of them? If they teleport in, they are delayed and Azrael has sufficient time to gain infinite actions in order to kill them all. If they try to move in as normal they are stopped as soon as he gets LoE to them with his repulsion effect (unless every single one of them has freedom of movement…which may not even work against repulsion).
Secondly, how do they even perceive him? Does every single one of them have true seeing? Even if they do, how do they get within 120ft of him in order to perceive him (he also has that persistent image effect (think Kyokasuigetsu).
Thirdly, is their individual CL higher than Azrael’s or is it some kind of collective CL? If not, then how do they get past the suppression fields…or hell, how do they get past the AMF?
    Fourthly, how do they bypass the fact that he would be aware of them beforehand with CoP?

Ok, assuming they can get past all that and do manage to actually defeat him (however unlikely). All he will do is respawn in his own plane 24 hours earlier, find out what will kill him, gain infinite actions, and kill them first…you see, collectively they may be strong, but individually they are weak, I can easily kill them all with infinite actions.

So there you have it H.I.V.E. is dead…next please :D

Show me a 20th level wizard that can do THAT.


Spells noted in his tactics:
Genesis
MMM
Greater Consumptive Field
COP
Time Stop
Contingency...

Yeah, sure, he can use a few TO Psi tricks, too.  That's not special, it just saves him a few castings of COP.

First of all, what a lot of people fail to realize about CoP is that sometimes a character (Azrael for example) has no weaknesses, therefore, there’s nothing CoP would tell you that you could use effectively against him. Now, if a normal 20th level wiz comes against a normal 20th level wiz with CoP there’s a plethora of weaknesses and tactics which can be revealed. Therefore, if they ever were to battle, it would depend on who used CoP more effectively. However, against Azrael, there is nothing…that’s why he needs to be as powerful as he is. Azrael basically makes other caster’s CoP shenanigans useless…in effect; he is the ultimate CoP user.

You see, while most of the cool stuff he can do can be replicated by a 20th level optimized wizard, Azrael can do all the things they cannot, or would take multiple wizards to do (which is a lot)…this is what makes him that much more powerful, and thus worthy of being in the same class as Omniscifer and Pun-Pun.
[/pre]

Ok, now I'm really done for the night...I'm going to bed.
: Re: Azrael
: X-Codes September 26, 2010, 06:48:00 AM
H.I.V.E. is a collective of an arbitrarily high number of creatures, and as a result has an arbitrarily high Caster Level for Sorcerer spells and an arbitrarily high Charisma granting bonus spells.  Each creature that is a member of H.I.V.E. has their own set of actions (and, as such, has an arbitrarily high number of actions by default) and is aware of everything that at least one other member of the Hive is aware of.  What would actually happen in a battle between Azrael and H.I.V.E. is that H.I.V.E. would trigger each of your defenses with one member (sacrificing it if need be) and then proceed to the next level with the rest.  Your infinite actions are utterly meaningless, because no matter what you *can* do, H.I.V.E. goes first because it has more Celerities than you do, and more than enough actions to dismantle you piece-by-piece and destroy you utterly.

As for returning to life, all someone has to do is be prepared to fight you 25 hours in advance of when they intend to fight you, and your precognition of your own death allowing you the opportunity to strike pre-emptively will simply result in the guy that kills you killing you 24 hours earlier.  As soon as you die, any manner of soul-trapping ability will negate your clones, auto-Resurrections, etc.

Also, Azrael has no weaknesses because the basis of EVERYTHING he does are either the 6 spells I noted or their Psionic equivalents.  A standard Wizard 20 can use those exact same spells to achieve the exact same seemingly-immortal status that Azrael has, but, as it turns out, Azrael has one weakness a standard Wizard 20 doesn't have:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/psionicArtifacts.htm#annulus

Once a Wizard 20 amasses the resources to go infinite actions and out-Celerity you to go first (probably by exploiting infinite Wish loops on his own flowing time Demiplane), he casts enough Time Stops to get 10 free rounds to charge the Annulus and destroys your body, captures your soul, and then uses it as a spell component to empower a casting of Prestidigitation to send you into oblivion, beyond the reach of every spell/power/DSA means of Revival ever printed except maybe Alter Reality.  Since you're basically an overbuffed Wizard 20 yourself, this doesn't even break the Annulus.

Seriously, Azrael is *not* that hot of shit.  He's about on par with a Cheater of Mystra, but not nearly on the same level as H.I.V.E. nor even in the ballpark of Pun-Pun.  Seriously, Pun-Pun has more power in his little toenail than Azrael does.
: Re: Azrael
: fallen-angle September 26, 2010, 07:13:51 AM
H.I.V.E. is a collective of an arbitrarily high number of creatures, and as a result has an arbitrarily high Caster Level for Sorcerer spells and an arbitrarily high Charisma granting bonus spells.  Each creature that is a member of H.I.V.E. has their own set of actions (and, as such, has an arbitrarily high number of actions by default) and is aware of everything that at least one other member of the Hive is aware of.  What would actually happen in a battle between Azrael and H.I.V.E. is that H.I.V.E. would trigger each of your defenses with one member (sacrificing it if need be) and then proceed to the next level with the rest.  Your infinite actions are utterly meaningless, because no matter what you *can* do, H.I.V.E. goes first because it has more Celerities than you do, and more than enough actions to dismantle you piece-by-piece and destroy you utterly.

As for returning to life, all someone has to do is be prepared to fight you 25 hours in advance of when they intend to fight you, and your precognition of your own death allowing you the opportunity to strike pre-emptively will simply result in the guy that kills you killing you 24 hours earlier.  As soon as you die, any manner of soul-trapping ability will negate your clones, auto-Resurrections, etc.

Also, Azrael has no weaknesses because the basis of EVERYTHING he does are either the 6 spells I noted or their Psionic equivalents.  A standard Wizard 20 can use those exact same spells to achieve the exact same seemingly-immortal status that Azrael has, but, as it turns out, Azrael has one weakness a standard Wizard 20 doesn't have:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/psionicArtifacts.htm#annulus

Once a Wizard 20 amasses the resources to go infinite actions and out-Celerity you to go first (probably by exploiting infinite Wish loops on his own flowing time Demiplane), he casts enough Time Stops to get 10 free rounds to charge the Annulus and destroys your body, captures your soul, and then uses it as a spell component to empower a casting of Prestidigitation to send you into oblivion, beyond the reach of every spell/power/DSA means of Revival ever printed except maybe Alter Reality.  Since you're basically an overbuffed Wizard 20 yourself, this doesn't even break the Annulus.

Seriously, Azrael is *not* that hot of shit.  He's about on par with a Cheater of Mystra, but not nearly on the same level as H.I.V.E. nor even in the ballpark of Pun-Pun.  Seriously, Pun-Pun has more power in his little toenail than Azrael does.

Thank you. I can't wait to see someone try to explain how they protect against an item that includes in its description "regardless of any protection it may possess"

You forgot the time traveling psi-crystal though. Not that it is a problem to use COP to discover the precise location where it will emerge and destroy it before it can activate.
: Re: Azrael
: X-Codes September 26, 2010, 07:18:41 AM
Thank you. I can't wait to see someone try to explain how they protect against an item that includes in its description "regardless of any protection it may possess"

You forgot the time traveling psi-crystal though. Not that it is a problem to use COP to discover the precise location where it will emerge and destroy it before it can activate.
Time-traveling Psicrystal is moot.  It can only go so far into the future, so make your preparations before it goes in the first place and simply wait for the pre-emptive strike.
: Re: Azrael
: fallen-angle September 26, 2010, 07:44:11 AM
Thank you. I can't wait to see someone try to explain how they protect against an item that includes in its description "regardless of any protection it may possess"

You forgot the time traveling psi-crystal though. Not that it is a problem to use COP to discover the precise location where it will emerge and destroy it before it can activate.
Time-traveling Psicrystal is moot.  It can only go so far into the future, so make your preparations before it goes in the first place and simply wait for the pre-emptive strike.

Time is meaningless when you are crafting demiplanes with alternative timeflows. I was just pointing out that it was easy to find and break, so it didn't become some "perfect" fallback plan.
: Re: Azrael
: KellKheraptis September 26, 2010, 08:58:01 AM
Even my lowly Red Wizard from Hell can destroy the Annilus.  Just sayin'.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 26, 2010, 02:20:16 PM
Even my lowly Red Wizard from Hell can destroy the Annilus.  Just sayin'.

Lol, exactly...

Thank you. I can't wait to see someone try to explain how they protect against an item that includes in its description "regardless of any protection it may possess"

the Annulus is absolutely no threat to me, if Azrael hasn't already destroyed it (probably the first thing he does), it does take 10 rounds in order to kill me, and they HAVE to be within 100ft, not on a different plane...speaking of which, Azrael is a RAW, non TO, char...I like how, in order to defeat him, you people are bringing in major artifacts, things there are no way to get beyond non-RAW, TO methods...

You forgot the time traveling psi-crystal though. Not that it is a problem to use COP to discover the precise location where it will emerge and destroy it before it can activate.

How exactly can you make it inside his closed off demi-plane within a demiplane that ONLY Azrael and his psicrystal can enter, and is even further protected (not that it even needs it) with a permanent irresistible, supernatural forbiddance. The answer is simple, you CANNOT get to him. No matter what you may be able to do to Azrael he will respawn 24 hours earlier, find out what killed him in total safety, and rape the shit out of it.

I felt the need to bold this because I have said it several times and you STILL haven't explained how they get in there...you're obviously not paying attention. You're selectively picking which arguments you think you can win and ignoring things that are in my character sheet (because you obviously haven't read the whole thing) and statements I made earlier.

H.I.V.E. is a collective of an arbitrarily high number of creatures, and as a result has an arbitrarily high Caster Level for Sorcerer spells and an arbitrarily high Charisma granting bonus spells.  Each creature that is a member of H.I.V.E. has their own set of actions (and, as such, has an arbitrarily high number of actions by default) and is aware of everything that at least one other member of the Hive is aware of.  What would actually happen in a battle between Azrael and H.I.V.E. is that H.I.V.E. would trigger each of your defenses with one member (sacrificing it if need be) and then proceed to the next level with the rest.  Your infinite actions are utterly meaningless, because no matter what you *can* do, H.I.V.E. goes first because it has more Celerities than you do, and more than enough actions to dismantle you piece-by-piece and destroy you utterly.

As for returning to life, all someone has to do is be prepared to fight you 25 hours in advance of when they intend to fight you, and your precognition of your own death allowing you the opportunity to strike pre-emptively will simply result in the guy that kills you killing you 24 hours earlier.  As soon as you die, any manner of soul-trapping ability will negate your clones, auto-Resurrections, etc.

Also, Azrael has no weaknesses because the basis of EVERYTHING he does are either the 6 spells I noted or their Psionic equivalents.  A standard Wizard 20 can use those exact same spells to achieve the exact same seemingly-immortal status that Azrael has, but, as it turns out, Azrael has one weakness a standard Wizard 20 doesn't have:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/psionicArtifacts.htm#annulus

Once a Wizard 20 amasses the resources to go infinite actions and out-Celerity you to go first (probably by exploiting infinite Wish loops on his own flowing time Demiplane), he casts enough Time Stops to get 10 free rounds to charge the Annulus and destroys your body, captures your soul, and then uses it as a spell component to empower a casting of Prestidigitation to send you into oblivion, beyond the reach of every spell/power/DSA means of Revival ever printed except maybe Alter Reality.  Since you're basically an overbuffed Wizard 20 yourself, this doesn't even break the Annulus.

Seriously, Azrael is *not* that hot of shit.  He's about on par with a Cheater of Mystra, but not nearly on the same level as H.I.V.E. nor even in the ballpark of Pun-Pun.  Seriously, Pun-Pun has more power in his little toenail than Azrael does.

Oh no! He's MUCH MORE powerful than the Cheater of Mystra...he would rape the shit out of that guy...err girl...whatever he/she is...I'm about to defeat H.I.V.E. pay attention below, and I already explained the bit about Pun-Pun, which no one cared to dispute...

As far as H.I.V.E. goes, beyond the whole respawning 24 hours earlier, gaining infinite actions and killing them all systematiacally one by one you still haven't explained how anyone in H.I.V.E. gets within 120 ft of me without me knowing about them.

Lets see, first of all, I have a superior invisibility effect up on myself, so in order to target me with anything they need to be within 120 ft of me, and all have true seeing; do they all possess true seeing? Secondly, they need to make it past my 2 mile repulsion emanation, which has no save, no SR, and even if you are magic immune it still affects you. The only arguable way around it is freedom of movement, which they must all possess (and its sketchy whether freedom of movement even works against a repulsion effect). Next, even if they do manage to approach him, he has a 300ft (I need to change this, apparently I forgot to widen it) so lets say 600ft transdimensional touchsight active at all times. So as soon as they approach within 600ft he percieves them and we roll for initiative...guess what...I'm going to win initiative since I have a +67 bonus and can roll like 5 times...which almost guarantees me at least an 80 initiative. So, before you even get within 500 ft of me, I have already gained infinite actions and am fully prepared to kill them all. If on some ungodly chance he loses initiative if they don't all have foresight (and I highly doubt they do), he can take an action (due to foresight/sense danger) before they even take their first initiative on the surprise round. Thus, he can go into another timestream, gain infinite actions, and before any one of them has even so much as twitched a finger at him...the entirety of H.I.V.E. is dead...

Like I said before...next please.

Now, can a '20th level wizard' beat H.I.V.E....I think not.


At least Kell understands my arguments...sigh...
: Re: Azrael
: Bozwevial September 26, 2010, 02:31:55 PM
Azrael is a RAW, non TO, char

I lol'd.

Also, what's stopping H.I.V.E. from having True Seeing and Foresight (and for that matter, anything else they want) up on every single member?
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 26, 2010, 02:41:09 PM
Really...please do explain whats non-RAW about him...

I don't know...are they all 17th level casters? Do they have the ability to persist Foresight on every single member? Does freedom of movement even work against repulsion?

Can they all escape detection and approach within 120 ft of me without me noticing them? Preventing me from beating them all on initiative, attempting to take my first action, they interrupt using celerity (their only immediate action), and I interrupt using my immediate action...can they do that? hmmm?

Can they prevent me from respawning 24 hours earlier and raping the shit out of them with infinite actions....nyooo.
: Re: Azrael
: Agita September 26, 2010, 02:45:46 PM
Really...please do explain whats non-RAW about him...
There is nothing non-RAW about him off the top of my head, and that's not what Boz said. There is a difference between TO and non-RAW (or RAW and non-TO, for that matter).
: Re: Azrael
: Bauglir September 26, 2010, 02:50:25 PM
Really...please do explain whats non-RAW about him...

I don't know...are they all 17th level casters? Do they have the ability to persist Foresight on every single member? Does freedom of movement even work against repulsion?

Can they all escape detection and approach within 120 ft of me without me noticing them? Preventing me from beating them all on initiative, attempting to take my first action, they interrupt using celerity (their only immediate action), and I interrupt using my immediate action...can they do that? hmmm?

Can they prevent me from respawning 24 hours earlier and raping the shit out of them with infinite actions....nyooo.

Yeah, TO just refers to the degree of ridiculousness a character achieves. Pun-Pun is totally legit, but still TO. And yes, they are all 17th level casters. Yes, they all have True Seeing. Yes, they all have Freedom of Movement. Yes, they have enough actions and enough spells prepared to blanket your entire demiplane with Disjunctions that automatically have a higher caster level than yours because the H.I.V.E has as many actions and spell slots and as high a caster level as it wants, and Disjunction does end every spell effect within the area (including your 600-ft repulsion). Yes, they have enough spell slots and actions to accelerate a subset of them into constant overlapping Time Stops where the inhabitants constantly cast CoP at a rate fast enough to catch Azrael with his Mindblank down in HIS absurdly rapid timestream when he casts it. Yes, they have enough Wishes to have themselves transported directly to Azrael's demiplane that only he can access, because Wish can transport creatures regardless of local conditions (including your defenses). Yes, they have enough castings of Invoke Magic to cast all the necessary spells while still inside your AMFs, which I assure you will not remain in existence for very long.

EDIT: And yes, all of them have Darkstalker and, through the miracle of Aid Another, absurdly high Hide and Move Silently checks, allowing them to bypass your Touchsight.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 26, 2010, 03:31:30 PM
Yeah, TO just refers to the degree of ridiculousness a character achieves. Pun-Pun is totally legit, but still TO. And yes, they are all 17th level casters. Yes, they all have True Seeing. Yes, they all have Freedom of Movement. Yes, they have enough actions and enough spells prepared to blanket your entire demiplane with Disjunctions that automatically have a higher caster level than yours because the H.I.V.E has as many actions and spell slots and as high a caster level as it wants, and Disjunction does end every spell effect within the area (including your 600-ft repulsion). Yes, they have enough spell slots and actions to accelerate a subset of them into constant overlapping Time Stops where the inhabitants constantly cast CoP at a rate fast enough to catch Azrael with his Mindblank down in HIS absurdly rapid timestream when he casts it. Yes, they have enough Wishes to have themselves transported directly to Azrael's demiplane that only he can access, because Wish can transport creatures regardless of local conditions (including your defenses). Yes, they have enough castings of Invoke Magic to cast all the necessary spells while still inside your AMFs, which I assure you will not remain in existence for very long.

EDIT: And yes, all of them have Darkstalker and, through the miracle of Aid Another, absurdly high Hide and Move Silently checks, allowing them to bypass your Touchsight.


I don't see how you MDJ his entire demiplane, if that was even an option I'm sure it would have been mentioned before by Kell or someone...it doesn't even exist at one point in space, you cant get inside it, and its duration is instantaneous...

Too bad you have to MDJ my emanation at its origin point (i.e. inside my defenses) in order to take down the repulsion. MDJing it at the edge will do nothing. Too bad you're using the version of Wish that can be interpreted in any which way and is basically up to the DM to decide...making your wish argument null. Also, if they do teleport 'within my defenses' they are delayed 3 rounds (please do pay attention).

Also, you cant overlap timestop...how would that even work? I cast time stop and I am free to do whatever I want in that time, it cannot be interrupted. Even if you cast timestop a millisecond earlier, or later each millisecond is its own x amount of time and cannot possibly interfere with another time stop...seriously...what were you thinking?

Also, I can get my CL higher than them...I just chose an arbitrary number because I didn't want to make it too ridiculous...want me to have a CL of a googleplex...fine, now I do...now what....? Oh, I guess it becomes a battle of who existed first, and thus, has the highest CL...what a stupid argument.

Hell, does H.I.V.E. even count as one character?...otherwise its just like saying "every powerful wizard in the multiverse vs. Azrael"...damn, if it takes that many separate chars to beat him he must be powerful lol.

And 'TO' stands for "theoretical optimization" that is, optimization which is potentially beyond RAW (i.e. up to different interpretations; uses of wish, or your character obtaining artifacts even though there is no legal RAW way to obtain them in the game...for example). Shows how much you know...I guess if you use an acronym long enough its actual meaning is prone to obscurity.

Also, too bad darkstalker doesn't work on touchsight :D

As I stated before...H.I.V.E. is dead (since all you can counter me with is ridiculous TO and potential uses of wish that require a DM to be present to adjudicate it)...deal with it.


: Re: Azrael
: Agita September 26, 2010, 03:38:41 PM
And 'TO' stands for "theoretical optimization" that is, optimization which is potentially beyond RAW (i.e. up to different interpretations; uses of wish, or your character obtaining artifacts even though there is no legal RAW way to obtain them in the game...for example). Shows how much you know.
No, wrong. Theoretical Optimization is CO that is not suitable for the vast majority of games because it takes RAW by the letter and combines many obscure bits and pieces of rules from different places whose interactions were never even remotely considered by the designers. Pun-Pun is a paragon example of the latter, and the general use of CoP is a great example of the former. TO's 'beyond RAW'-ness stops at extrapolation of guidelines and rules into territory that is simply not mentioned or considered in the sourcebooks, and questionable grammatical interpretations of rules. You will not find one true TO build that uses an artifact because it would, frankly, be cheating, as you yourself said.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 26, 2010, 03:43:43 PM
No, wrong. Theoretical Optimization is CO that is not suitable for the vast majority of games because it takes RAW by the letter and combines many obscure bits and pieces of rules from different places whose interactions were never even remotely considered by the designers. Pun-Pun is a paragon example of the latter, and the general use of CoP is a great example of the former. TO's 'beyond RAW'-ness stops at extrapolation of guidelines and rules into territory that is simply not mentioned or considered in the sourcebooks, and questionable grammatical interpretations of rules. You will not find one true TO build that uses an artifact because it would, frankly, be cheating, as you yourself said.

Ok, thank you for proving my point then...

Why the hell would you use CO to mean "Theoretical Optimization." I thought CO stood for "Character Optimization"...are you absolutely sure about this?...my explanation makes more sense...since I actually use the correct letters and all.
: Re: Azrael
: Agita September 26, 2010, 03:47:39 PM
Ok, thank you for proving my point then...

why the hell would you use CO to mean "Theoretical Optimization." I thought CO stood for "Character Optimization"...are you absolutely sure about this...my explanation makes more sense...since I actually use the correct letters and all...
Please do not put words in my mouth. CO means Character Optimization. The two main subgroups of Character Optimization are Practical Optimization and Theoretical Optimization. Although CO is often used synonimously with Practical Optimization, I'm pretty sure Theoretical Optimization is also a kind of Character Optimization. Wouldn't you agree? In the above post I used CO as a general term for any and all kinds of optimization. If you don't find that term acceptable, then may I ask what you would use as an overarching term for both Theoretical and Practical Optimization?
: Re: Azrael
: Bauglir September 26, 2010, 03:52:23 PM
Yeah, TO just refers to the degree of ridiculousness a character achieves. Pun-Pun is totally legit, but still TO. And yes, they are all 17th level casters. Yes, they all have True Seeing. Yes, they all have Freedom of Movement. Yes, they have enough actions and enough spells prepared to blanket your entire demiplane with Disjunctions that automatically have a higher caster level than yours because the H.I.V.E has as many actions and spell slots and as high a caster level as it wants, and Disjunction does end every spell effect within the area (including your 600-ft repulsion). Yes, they have enough spell slots and actions to accelerate a subset of them into constant overlapping Time Stops where the inhabitants constantly cast CoP at a rate fast enough to catch Azrael with his Mindblank down in HIS absurdly rapid timestream when he casts it. Yes, they have enough Wishes to have themselves transported directly to Azrael's demiplane that only he can access, because Wish can transport creatures regardless of local conditions (including your defenses). Yes, they have enough castings of Invoke Magic to cast all the necessary spells while still inside your AMFs, which I assure you will not remain in existence for very long.

EDIT: And yes, all of them have Darkstalker and, through the miracle of Aid Another, absurdly high Hide and Move Silently checks, allowing them to bypass your Touchsight.


I don't see how you MDJ his entire demiplane, if that was even an option I'm sure it would have been mentioned before by Kell or someone...it doesn't even exist at one point in space, you cant get inside it, and its duration is instantaneous...

They just cast enough MDJs to cover the volume of his plane. They have a lot of them.

Too bad you have to MDJ my emanation at its origin point (i.e. inside my defenses) in order to take down the repulsion. MDJing it at the edge will do nothing. Too bad you're using the version of Wish that can be interpreted in any which way and is basically up to the DM to decide...making your wish argument null. Also, if they do teleport 'within my defenses' they are delayed 3 rounds (please do pay attention).

Yeah, you're right, they DO have to get the origin point (but only because it's an emanation; which spell is it, by the way, that gets that with a 2 mile radius? I'm gonna go back and check the OP after this post and see if it's there, so don't worry if it's clearly explained there Yeah, ok, I'm not sure how you're denying them their Will save). Actually, I'm NOT using the "wishing for more powerful effects" section. Quoth the SRD:

• Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

It's an explicitly allowed effect. And it's not teleportation, either; it references nowhere a teleport effect. It does not have the [Teleportation] descriptor; Anticipate Teleportation does nothing (please do pay attention).

Also, you cant overlap timestop...how would that even work? I cast time stop and I am free to do whatever I want in that time, it cannot be interrupted. Even if you cast timestop a millisecond earlier, or later each millisecond is its own x amount of time and cannot possibly interfere with another time stop...seriously...what were you thinking?

I'm just saying that, at any given moment in time, one of them is in a Time Stop effect. Anyway, you're right, I'm only acting on the fluff of Time Stop; RAW, they can't do that, but still, they just have Mind Blank up constantly except for when they're CoP themselves, just as you do; they won't know anything about Azrael, but he'll know nothing of them.

Also, I can get my CL higher than them...I just chose an arbitrary number because I didn't want to make it too ridiculous...want me to have a CL of a googleplex...fine, now I do...now what....?

So do they. Their CL is arbitrarily high, just as yours is, only they don't have to spend actions using Greater Consumptive Field.

And 'TO' stands for "theoretical optimization" that is, optimization which is potentially beyond RAW (i.e. up to different interpretations; uses of wish, or your character obtaining artifacts even though there is no legal RAW way to obtain them in the game...for example). Shows how much you know.

Uhm, no, you're wrong, actually. Theoretical refers to optimization that would never see use in an actual game; just as you never see a character actually playing Pun-Pun, you'll never see somebody playing Azrael. Shows how much you know.

P.S. Too bad darkstalker doesn't work on touchsight :D

Ah, you're right, my bad. On the plus side, it does mean Azrael is standing out in the open since he still needs LoE. Could be useful, that. Still, it hardly matters; using Wish, the H.I.V.E just transports a few thousand, easily disposable, members to Azrael's immediate vicinity where they drop Invoke Magic'd Disjunctions wherever they need to and then take him apart when he explodes from Fusion ending.

Incidentally, you really don't need to take this so personally. What's with the childish insults?

EDIT: I edited this in above, but since I don't really expect you to reread the entire post again, how do you deny people the Will save against Repulsion?
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 26, 2010, 03:58:22 PM
But why wouldn't "theoretical optimization" mean optimization that's "theoretical," i.e. going beyond RAW...I cant see any other meaning for the word...if its RAW then how can it be theoretical? It just is...

Theoretical is a non-definitive word. Why would we use a non-definitive word to represent something which is indisputable by RAW...do you get what I'm saying?

Also, I wasn't putting words in your mouth, I was simply commenting on your comment about artifacts, since you basically proved my point concerning the use of artifacts in killing Azrael being non-RAW (not that he can be defeated by the artifacts anyway).

: Re: Azrael
: Bauglir September 26, 2010, 04:02:34 PM
But why wouldn't "theoretical optimization" mean optimization that's "theoretical," i.e. going beyond RAW...I cant see any other meaning for the word...if its RAW then how can it be theoretical? It just is...

Theoretical is a non-definitive word. Why would we use a non-definitive word to represent something which is indisputable by RAW...do you get what I'm saying?

Also, I wasn't putting words in your mouth, I was simply commenting on your comment about artifacts, since you basically proved my point concerning the use of artifacts in killing Azrael being non-RAW (not that he can be defeated by the artifacts anyway).



It's called theoretical because it exists only in theory, not in practice. You don't see these builds in real games; hence, they are only theoretical. I get what you're saying, but it's not theoretical in terms of the RAW, it's theoretical in terms of games that get played.

Anyway, yes, artifacts that you can't arrange to obtain in-game (epic Binders can get spheres of annihilation, for instance; I'm not aware of any other (EDIT: non-TO) examples) can't be assumed, although their effects are still RAW. Whether you can have one is not assured, and as such I'd consider reliance on them to be a severe blow to the practicality of a given build, and a build that could do it without artifacts would be superior. Still, you said "no possible way this character can be beaten", so artifacts are a legit counterargument since your statement was so broad.

EDIT: Anyway, Agita's statement about artifacts was perfectly reasonable; they're not TO because they're not, strictly speaking, a guaranteed thing. The only time you see them used in true TO is when the TO is a way of getting them (because Shaedlings are awesome and so is Tsuyo).
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 26, 2010, 04:07:45 PM

They just cast enough MDJs to cover the volume of his plane. They have a lot of them.


Since they cant get onto the plane in the first place, let alone even know it exists, or how to find it, I don't see how this is possible. And since they cannot CoP me they have no idea about my respawning 24 hours earlier, and thus cannot prevent it. Since I will respawn (assuming they get past repulsion, touchsight, beat me on initiative, and get around my new wish contingency (see below)) I can CoP for the exact moment I will be attacked in the coming day, thus I know just when to trigger my infinite actions, and there's nothing they can do about it. Since I am CoPing about what will happen to me...which is certainly viable.


I'm just saying that, at any given moment in time, one of them is in a Time Stop effect. Anyway, you're right, I'm only acting on the fluff of Time Stop; RAW, they can't do that, but still, they just have Mind Blank up constantly except for when they're CoP themselves, just as you do; they won't know anything about Azrael, but he'll know nothing of them.


Good then, another stalemate...since a 20th level wizard can apparently stalemate me, I guess ill have to accept that against the H.I.V.E.


Ah, you're right, my bad. On the plus side, it does mean Azrael is standing out in the open since he still needs LoE. Could be useful, that. Still, it hardly matters; using Wish, the H.I.V.E just transports a few thousand, easily disposable, members to Azrael's immediate vicinity where they drop Invoke Magic'd Disjunctions wherever they need to and then knock take him apart when he explodes from Fusion ending.

Ah then, I guess ill just have to add another contingency about people using wish to transport themselves near me...problem solved :D

I edited this in above, but since I don't really expect you to reread the entire post again, how do you deny people the Will save against Repulsion?

Irresistible and Supernatural Repulsion; Irresistible Spell is a metamagic feat in the Kingdoms of Kalimar Players Handbook (its official material btw).

Incidentally, you really don't need to take this so personally. What's with the childish insults?

Are you trying to make me look like the bad guy by citing things that don't exist?...please, by all means, do quote the section where I directly insulted you.




Anyway, I am DONE for now...I have better things to do with my day than argue such things.


: Re: Azrael
: Agita September 26, 2010, 04:13:58 PM
Also, I wasn't putting words in your mouth, I was simply commenting on your comment about artifacts, since you basically proved my point concerning the use of artifacts in killing Azrael being non-RAW (not that he can be defeated by the artifacts anyway).
No part of my post referred to your comment about me proving your point, as your point about artifacts is not part of my concerns in this debate (although I agree that using artifacts to defeat Azrael misses the point of the challenge). This is a challenge, I find it great that people are taking it on, but I'm not an active participant. I'm here because I took issue with your definition of TO.

It's called theoretical because it exists only in theory, not in practice. You don't see these builds in real games; hence, they are only theoretical. I get what you're saying, but it's not theoretical in terms of the RAW, it's theoretical in terms of games that get played.
Thank you. This is exactly what I was going to say about TO. It's called theoretical because it is theory, as opposed to practice.

EDIT: For the record:
: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theoretical?r=75&src=ref&ch=dic
the·o·ret·i·cal
   [thee-uh-ret-i-kuhl]
–adjective
1.
of, pertaining to, or consisting in theory; not practical ( distinguished from applied).
2.
existing only in theory; hypothetical.
3.
given to, forming, or dealing with theories; speculative.
: Re: Azrael
: Archmage Joda September 26, 2010, 04:17:11 PM
By the by, does anyone happen to have a link to the H.I.V.E.?
: Re: Azrael
: Agita September 26, 2010, 04:22:19 PM
EDIT: Anyway, Agita's statement about artifacts was perfectly reasonable; they're not TO because they're not, strictly speaking, a guaranteed thing. The only time you see them used in true TO is when the TO is a way of getting them (because Shaedlings are awesome and so is Tsuyo).
Speaking of which, is Shadow Gossamer's wording broad enough that you could shape artifacts with completely made-up abilities, as it has been arguesd with Pun-Pun?
: Re: Azrael
: Bauglir September 26, 2010, 04:29:49 PM
To avoid a series of quotamids:

1. They get there via Wish, which I assumed you'd pick up from my later mention of it. So saying they can't get there doesn't really work.

2. And yes, I'm conceding that on that point it's only a stalemate.

3. Could you explain your contingency? The only rules that exist are for things that happen to you, so you couldn't word it on something like a creature appearing near you unless you want to leave the realm of strict RAW and argue that the word "usually" in craft contingent spell lets you do other things. Alternatively, if you're using the spell "contingency", then that's fine, although you can only have one and I'm not sure what it would be (remember, 6th level spell at most; what is this contingency going to do, exactly?), and I'm going to grant that "Uses Wish to transport to somewhere within 200 feet of me" probably isn't too convoluted. Alternatively, if you just meant the general sense of "contingency", could you describe in more detail what you mean?

4. Could you explain to me why Kingdoms of Kalamar (EDIT: And yes, I'm looking at the Player's Guide) is legit? It's a 3.0 3rd party sourcebook that, as far as I can tell from the information on its Table of Contents page, was only published under the OGL license (like all 3rd party sourcebooks). I might be missing something, though.

Anyway, back to the quoting for non-rules things:

Are you trying to make me look like the bad guy by citing things that don't exist?...please, by all means, do quote the section where I directly insulted you.

(please do pay attention)...what a stupid argument... shows how much you know...

And that's only the explicit stuff (mind, I don't buy that "I didn't directly insult you" bullshit that everyone under the age of 10 uses, and if the fact that I'm pointing out your complete inability to construct a rational argument seems like a personal attack, well, I'm not DIRECTLY insulting you, right?). I'm not arguing that your character isn't powerful; he is. I'm arguing that he CAN be defeated by legal builds, and you're just moving the goalposts in an attempt to hide your original overblown statements. I like the stealth edits to your post, by the way. And congratulations on the "I'm leaving, this argument isn't worth my time" approach.

EDIT:
EDIT: Anyway, Agita's statement about artifacts was perfectly reasonable; they're not TO because they're not, strictly speaking, a guaranteed thing. The only time you see them used in true TO is when the TO is a way of getting them (because Shaedlings are awesome and so is Tsuyo).
Speaking of which, is Shadow Gossamer's wording broad enough that you could shape artifacts with completely made-up abilities, as it has been arguesd with Pun-Pun?

It might be. I'll look at it after finding the H.I.V.E, which I honestly should do because it's not fair to rely on a shadow build with undefinable abilities.

ADDITIONAL EDIT:
I can't find the H.I.V.E. The only thing that ever comes up is the CL 90-something hivemind from using Dark Speech with a bunch of swarms crammed into one square, but that doesn't sound like what we're describing. Anybody got a more specific reference or phrase from the original thread? Alternatively, if it was one of the Dirty Tricks, which one?

As for the Shaedling: yes. If you buy that "an ability" includes ones that don't exist, then you have to grant that "an item" (which is the wording on the Shaedling) includes ones that don't exist.
: Re: Azrael
: Lunaramblings September 26, 2010, 06:52:44 PM
Ok, a few things.

1) You still have not answered how you are getting that many creatures crammed into 30ft around you. I can concede that you can get a pretty large number, but I don't think as large as you are claiming.

2) This can only raise your CL by up to 1/2 your original CL. That means that at best you get CL 30.

3) You also do not get a feat slot if they have a duplicate feat to the person they are being fused to. It says that if both have a feat, then you only get the feat once.

4) Use of several different campaign settings certainly seems to border on TO to me, especially when one of them is 3.0 and 3rd party.

5) Also, from the MIC:

 Some body slots are described as a matched pair of body parts
(such as arms, feet, or hands). If an item uses one of these body
slots, it takes up both “halves” of the body slot even if worn on
only one of the pair. For example, a glove of storing takes up the
entire hands body slot, even though it’s only one glove.
Similarly,
items that come in pairs must be worn together in order to function—
wearing a single gauntlet of ogre power has no effect.

6) If you get rid of the 3.0 and 3rd party material, I would call this a pretty awesome build, however with that inclusion, I honestly can not consider this any more than TO. Additionally the use of practically every campaign setting would not fly in any gaming group I have ever played in, so again, a bit TO for my tastes.

: Re: Azrael
: X-Codes September 26, 2010, 07:03:08 PM
Using Dark Speech to create H.I.V.E. instead of taking Verminlord to become it yourself results in a more powerful H.I.V.E., anyway.  Regardless, here's all you need to know about H.I.V.E., pulled from BoVD:

: Book of Vile Darkness p34
Hivemind

As a side effect of some evil spiritual presence or dark blessing, vermin and certain animals can take on a sort of evil consciousness shared among a large group, though each individual member retains little or no intellect.  When a hivemind forms, each individual creature becomes just a tiny part of a much larger, much greater intelligence.  But even the most craven sages do not understand how or why hiveminds develop.

If at least 50 vermin or animals of the same species are arranged so that no one individual is more than 10 feed from another individual, the hivemind may come into effect.  All the creatures operate with an Intelligence of 5, even if they previously had no Intelligence score (as with vermin).  The creatures' Intelligence score increases by +1 for every 20 individuals (beyond the first 50) in the hivemind, up to an Intelligence of 10 for a hivemind of 150 creatures.  Beyond the 150-creature threshold, Intelligence increases by +1 for every 50 additional individuals.  Thus, a swarm of 500 rats would have a hivemind Intelligence of 17.  For every point of Intelligence bonus possessed by the hivemind, award each individual creature one feat and 1 skill point per Hit Die.  Intelligence-based skill bonuses increase accordingly.  So the 500 rats in the swarm (Int 17, +3 bonus) would each have 3 extra skill points and three feats.  In this case, they gain a +3 bonus on Hide checks and the feats Alertness, Skill Focus (Move Silently) and Weapon Focus (bite).

The increase to Intelligence gained for every creature in the hivemind over 50 also applies to Charisma.  So, a hivemind of 500 rats (normal Charisma score 2) has a Charisma score of 14.

If a hivemind attains a Charisma score of 18 or higher, it gains the ability to cast spells as a sorcerer.  For every point of Charisma over 17, the hivemind has one level of sorcerer.  A hivemind of 1,000 rats has a Charisma of 22, so it would cast spells as a 5th-level sorcerer, for example.  The hivemind has six cantrips, eight 1st-level spells, and six 2nd-level spells each day.  Any single creature can cast one of the hivemind's spells, but those spell slots are then lost to other creatures in the hivemind.  Creatures in a hivemind have no need for somatic or material components, and their squeaks, screeches, or clicks serve as verbal components.

When creatures in a hivemind attack, they all gain a +1 insight bonus on their attack rolls and a +1 insight bonus to their Armor Class.  Each creature knows the actions of every other member of the hivemind.  The entire hivemind is aware of what every individual is experiencing.

So, if we were to say that a 9th-level Druid casts the spell Insect Plague and then uses Dark Speech to turn the summoned swarms into a hivemind, you'd have a swarm of 4,500 vermin.  That gives the first-iteration H.I.V.E. an intelligence of 97 and a charisma of 94.  It casts spells as a 76th-level Sorcerer, with spells per day (before feats) of 6/17/17/16/16/16/16/15/15/15.  The swarm has 43 * 4500 bonus feats (193,500 total). The first-iteration H.I.V.E. takes Extra Spell, with each member of the swarm picking a different spell (essentially learning all sub-9th Sor/Wiz spells in existence).  They also take Dark Speech.  The Swarm then takes the Extra Slot feat using it's remaining feats, resulting in having a final count of 189014 8th-level spell slots.  Even if you use all your 5th+ slots for CoP, the first-iteration H.I.V.E. will out-CoP you at a rate of over 390:1.  In other words, for each year you spend using CoP to gain information, H.I.V.E. can match with a single day's preparation.

The first-iteration H.I.V.E. can then use CoP to determine whether or not anyone is capable of overpowering them. If someone can, the first-iteration H.I.V.E. casts Genesis, retreats to it's demiplane, UMD's a (toothipcik-sized) Staff of Swarming Insects (brought into being via Wish) to cast Insect Plague as a 9th-level Druid 16 more times, and then uses Dark Speech to unify the entirety into one massive second-iteration H.I.V.E. of 1,224,000 vermin with an Intelligence of 24,487 and a Charisma of 24,484.  They have 12,238 bonus feats per member, and when spent on Extra Slot they wind up with just shy of 15 BILLION 8th-level spells per day and 2,814 9th-level spells per day, cast at a CL of 24,866, out-CoPing you at a rate of almost 31 MILLION TO ONE.  In other words, the second-iteration H.I.V.E. can cast as many CoPs in one day as you can in 85 THOUSAND YEARS.
: Re: Azrael
: fallen-angle September 26, 2010, 07:23:11 PM
As far as H.I.V.E. goes, beyond the whole respawning 24 hours earlier, gaining infinite actions and killing them all systematiacally one by one you still haven't explained how anyone in H.I.V.E. gets within 120 ft of me without me knowing about them.

Lets see, first of all, I have a superior invisibility effect up on myself, so in order to target me with anything they need to be within 120 ft of me, and all have true seeing; do they all possess true seeing? Secondly, they need to make it past my 2 mile repulsion emanation, which has no save, no SR, and even if you are magic immune it still affects you. The only arguable way around it is freedom of movement, which they must all possess (and its sketchy whether freedom of movement even works against a repulsion effect). Next, even if they do manage to approach him, he has a 300ft (I need to change this, apparently I forgot to widen it) so lets say 600ft transdimensional touchsight active at all times. So as soon as they approach within 600ft he percieves them and we roll for initiative...guess what...I'm going to win initiative since I have a +67 bonus and can roll like 5 times...which almost guarantees me at least an 80 initiative. So, before you even get within 500 ft of me, I have already gained infinite actions and am fully prepared to kill them all. If on some ungodly chance he loses initiative if they don't all have foresight (and I highly doubt they do), he can take an action (due to foresight/sense danger) before they even take their first initiative on the surprise round. Thus, he can go into another timestream, gain infinite actions, and before any one of them has even so much as twitched a finger at him...the entirety of H.I.V.E. is dead...

1) To begin, all members of H.I.V.E. are sorcerer's or an arbitrarily massive level. If a spell exists that circumvents a defense, they have it. So yes, they have true seeing.

2) Repulsion can probably be beaten by freedom of movement, Globe of Invunerability heightened to a sufficient extent could also work. Neither matters since it was established above that Wish can bring them right to you.

3) Touchsight Falls to the Darkstalker feat. Naturally they approach while in Time Stop. And lets throw in that they have Astrally projected from their own demiplane. Just for good measure. Therefore spot checks are meaningless.

4) They all have foresight. It really isn't hard to have foresight, why would you assume that you are completely prepared and they are not. Other people have COP too.

On the topic of your cute little demiplane. They find it via COP, the same way Azrael appears to discover all knowledge (Since Azrael actively plans to attack them they can therefore ask the very same questions he asks, and get the very same unwaveringly accurate answers). These things go both ways. Any wizard 20 can create a perfect demiplane with unnatural timeflows. Any Wizard 20 can cast COP basically at will (via Shapechange). Any wizard 20 can wish up enough rounds in timestop (infinite is nice, really only need about 4 though).
: Re: Azrael
: KellKheraptis September 26, 2010, 07:26:51 PM
Bear in mind any sort of CoP contest is an auto-stalemate, as it is time-dependent.  Whether the HIVE can do so more efficiently is a moot point when both HIVE and Az have infinite time available to them.  Also, whether the wish transit is a teleportation or not, it physically dumps them well within range of Az's anticipate teleport, which IIRC spells out all forms of "poof, I'm here" and delays it.  And even if it doesn't, contingent irresistable telekinesis ensures they're shoved out of range of true sight, assuming he doesn't simply set the contingency to something more unpleasant to small component synergetic creatures.  Like CL N irresistable circle of death/reserves of strength NI damage blast.

Your stalemate with the HIVE, at least initially, comes from having N actions at N+1 initiative count, effectively the same as an Ardent 10 with Dominant Ideal and mantle shuffle.  Again, while he doesn't auto-win (same reason for stalemate as a Wizard, as a fully closed demiplane is just that, untouchable), he won't auto-lose either.  And unless HIVE has a respawn plan, eventually Az would get around to picking it apart at its components.

And no, touchsight looks right past Darkstalker.  In fact, touchsight has nothing at all to do with sight, and is in fact telekinetic touch at a distance.  He's literally fingering the surrounding space, and the surrounding space in all coterminous planes, with his mind.  There have been threads about this, and thus far to my knowledge, nothing can bypass transdimensional touchsight.  It is the bane of sneaky types, and they just have to deal with it (or use White Raven maneuvers and pray their target isn't immune, which Az is).
: Re: Azrael
: fallen-angle September 26, 2010, 07:40:28 PM
Bear in mind any sort of CoP contest is an auto-stalemate, as it is time-dependent.  Whether the HIVE can do so more efficiently is a moot point when both HIVE and Az have infinite time available to them.  Also, whether the wish transit is a teleportation or not, it physically dumps them well within range of Az's anticipate teleport, which IIRC spells out all forms of "poof, I'm here" and delays it.  And even if it doesn't, contingent irresistable telekinesis ensures they're shoved out of range of true sight, assuming he doesn't simply set the contingency to something more unpleasant to small component synergetic creatures.  Like CL N irresistable circle of death/reserves of strength NI damage blast.

Your stalemate with the HIVE, at least initially, comes from having N actions at N+1 initiative count, effectively the same as an Ardent 10 with Dominant Ideal and mantle shuffle.  Again, while he doesn't auto-win (same reason for stalemate as a Wizard, as a fully closed demiplane is just that, untouchable), he won't auto-lose either.  And unless HIVE has a respawn plan, eventually Az would get around to picking it apart at its components.

And no, touchsight looks right past Darkstalker.  In fact, touchsight has nothing at all to do with sight, and is in fact telekinetic touch at a distance.  He's literally fingering the surrounding space, and the surrounding space in all coterminous planes, with his mind.  There have been threads about this, and thus far to my knowledge, nothing can bypass transdimensional touchsight.  It is the bane of sneaky types, and they just have to deal with it (or use White Raven maneuvers and pray their target isn't immune, which Az is).

Nothing stops the attacker from teleporting in outside the range of anticipate teleport. Nothing stops them from arriving while timestopped and having actions even before they can be perceived.

I will concede that it is very possible to build a demiplane which cannot be effectively attacked or invaded, however anyone with Genesis can do that. It would come down to a battle of Astrally projected characters, attacking each other within altered time-streams, one kills the other with a superior number of actions, then they immediately return to life on their own demiplane. By this logic, just about ANY Caster level 18+ (to include sorcerers) is unkillable, or close to it.

I am not trying to argue that Azrael is weak, he isn't. He simply isn't the unbeatable, kill all, haha I win, God that the OP clearly imagines him to be. That said. Kell, you make a much more convincing and well reasoned argument than he. Thank you.
: Re: Azrael
: Bauglir September 26, 2010, 07:42:59 PM
I did look up anticipate teleport for that, yes, and it does only affect spells with the [Teleportation] descriptor. That's why I had to use Wish, specifically, because it's the only spell I can think of that does that and doesn't have that descriptor. First off, are we establishing that his one use of contingency is to defend against Wishporting? Remember, Craft Contingent Spell only has rules for triggering on something that affects you, not your immediate area. And bear in mind, telekinesis can't smack enough targets to repel, let's say, 4500 of the units of the HIVE, so yeah, you will need one of those blasts to do it. Of course, it's simple enough for the HIVE to realize what happened and simply send in a second wave within the same round, before Azrael can put up a second contingency to accomplish the same effect. Or simply to send in a bunch of swarms one after the other via readied actions.

And the HIVE's respawn plan only needs to consist of seeding billions of portions of itself across the multiverse and having them create their own HIVEs. Or mind-raping a psion long enough to Fuse with it and then mind-seed some suckers. I think, anyway, that's not exactly the issue I'm most concerned with. Anyway, I do admit that bringing in TO like the HIVE is kinda silly; Azrael certainly can obliterate any character likely to see play, ever.
: Re: Azrael
: KellKheraptis September 26, 2010, 07:45:44 PM
Let's do one better.  This requires no contingency, by the way...Metamagic Effect a Maw of Chaos at NI CL.  Now start Widening to taste.  So much for getting close to him...

Bear in mind any sort of CoP contest is an auto-stalemate, as it is time-dependent.  Whether the HIVE can do so more efficiently is a moot point when both HIVE and Az have infinite time available to them.  Also, whether the wish transit is a teleportation or not, it physically dumps them well within range of Az's anticipate teleport, which IIRC spells out all forms of "poof, I'm here" and delays it.  And even if it doesn't, contingent irresistable telekinesis ensures they're shoved out of range of true sight, assuming he doesn't simply set the contingency to something more unpleasant to small component synergetic creatures.  Like CL N irresistable circle of death/reserves of strength NI damage blast.

Your stalemate with the HIVE, at least initially, comes from having N actions at N+1 initiative count, effectively the same as an Ardent 10 with Dominant Ideal and mantle shuffle.  Again, while he doesn't auto-win (same reason for stalemate as a Wizard, as a fully closed demiplane is just that, untouchable), he won't auto-lose either.  And unless HIVE has a respawn plan, eventually Az would get around to picking it apart at its components.

And no, touchsight looks right past Darkstalker.  In fact, touchsight has nothing at all to do with sight, and is in fact telekinetic touch at a distance.  He's literally fingering the surrounding space, and the surrounding space in all coterminous planes, with his mind.  There have been threads about this, and thus far to my knowledge, nothing can bypass transdimensional touchsight.  It is the bane of sneaky types, and they just have to deal with it (or use White Raven maneuvers and pray their target isn't immune, which Az is).

Nothing stops the attacker from teleporting in outside the range of anticipate teleport. Nothing stops them from arriving while timestopped and having actions even before they can be perceived.

I will concede that it is very possible to build a demiplane which cannot be effectively attacked or invaded, however anyone with Genesis can do that. It would come down to a battle of Astrally projected characters, attacking each other within altered time-streams, one kills the other with a superior number of actions, then they immediately return to life on their own demiplane. By this logic, just about ANY Caster level 18+ (to include sorcerers) is unkillable, or close to it.

I am not trying to argue that Azrael is weak, he isn't. He simply isn't the unbeatable, kill all, haha I win, God that the OP clearly imagines him to be. That said. Kell, you make a much more convincing and well reasoned argument than he. Thank you.

Sorry, missed this one when I posted :P  Azrael never said his iconic was undefeatable, but he effectively is.  Any number of builds can stalemate him, that's easy.  But nothing per se can ultimately kill him, and in 3.5 achieving that status is frighteningly easy.  Also, the way he goes about it leaves a LOT of room for offensive power, giving him a leg up on the competition.  He is similar to the HIVE in a lot of ways, drawing from within instead of without, and using open-ended spells and powers to match their more ridiculous abilities.  And remember, each member of his fusion can also have a contingency active upon their person, and a number of contingent crafts up to the limit of that feat.  Combine with the usual "I fuck with time" routine, and it's effectively no more effective than having only the usual limit, which is most likely why he didn't bother to mention it.  Between his immunity to surprise and ability to always act under any circumstance, the best you can hope to do bringing infinite actions to bear on him is match his infinite actions.
: Re: Azrael
: fallen-angle September 26, 2010, 08:10:50 PM
That is all you can hope for in any fight where infinite immediate actions are present.

H.I.V.E. still outruns him though. Vastly more contingencies, celerities, and actions in general. Which is what a battle of perfect preparation comes down to.
: Re: Azrael
: KellKheraptis September 26, 2010, 08:16:33 PM
That is all you can hope for in any fight where infinite immediate actions are present.

H.I.V.E. still outruns him though. Vastly more contingencies, celerities, and actions in general. Which is what a battle of perfect preparation comes down to.

Infinte+1=Infinite.  Time means nothing to infinity.  You have to free yourself from linear action economy.  This is a battle of titans, those who ignore the simple "first you go, then Bob goes" traditional way of resolving actions.  After the grand shuffle of celerities/anticipatory strikes and the action chains they each spawn whilst within arbitrary time streams, the net result is null set.  Stalemate.  H.I.V.E. merely has more components, which is again arbitrary on both ends, as Azrael can quite easily add a H.I.V.E. as an afterthought to his contingent of thralls.  I'm contemplating posting (well...finishing first) Kell, complete with mythal at level 20 and an in-built H.I.V.E. just to illustrate the point.
: Re: Azrael
: Bauglir September 26, 2010, 08:21:04 PM
I mean, you can try, but I'm perfectly confident there's no possible way to beat this char.

Just pointing out that he DID say Azrael is undefeatable. Honestly, the only reason I'm in this thread is hubris; Azrael is an absurdly powerful character, but he doesn't do anything original. He just combines all the other tricks that high level Wizards do with a trick that a high level Psion does, and then throws in some 3rd party stuff (Irresistable Spell, unless someone can tell me why the book is a legitimate source) and misread Fusion to give multiples of feats (Azrael doesn't have as many spell slots as he thinks he does, among other things). Also, since a fused being is only one being, it cannot have multiple contingencies (or other effects that a creature can only have one of).

I'd not be posting in this thread nearly as much if Azrael (the poster) had shown any degree of modesty at all, shown some original thought in creating the build, not talked his build in the manner of a stereotypical (that's an important word, by the way) nerd arguing that Sephiroth could totally beat Goku in a fight, or had any sort of reputation as somebody who builds silly-powerful, complicated characters abusing poorly thought out rules (like your uses of Circle Magic, Kell). As it is, the OP sounded like somebody saying, "I'm the bestest optimizer EVAR". And while he's certainly good (and seriously, kudos on just doing the grunt work necessary to put Azrael (here the character) together, that's a lot of books to check), it seems like he cares too much about his e-peen, which is unfortunate because, no matter how big it is, it never built a Star Destroyer (I may be using Tsuyo as a reference too much, but he's become synonymous with absurdly amazing charop stuff in my mind).
: Re: Azrael
: fallen-angle September 26, 2010, 08:26:51 PM
^

Second That.
: Re: Azrael
: Agita September 26, 2010, 08:28:58 PM
[...] Sephiroth could totally beat Goku in a fight
Pre- or post-One Winged Angel? :p
: Re: Azrael
: The_Mad_Linguist September 26, 2010, 08:30:20 PM
(Irresistable Spell, unless someone can tell me why the book is a legitimate source)
It's officially licensed by WotC.  It's just like ravenloft or dragon magazine.

That said, the fact that it's 3.0 (where metamagic operated under different assumpetions) and, IIRC, the unlicensed conversion to 3.5 removed the feat makes it rather difficult to argue about irresistible spell as a serious optimization tool any more than using 4e stuff does under ADMG's "best errata ever"
: Re: Azrael
: X-Codes September 26, 2010, 08:32:26 PM
The H.I.V.E. Spawn/Respawn plan:

I actually didn't think with enough foresight when it comes to the second-iteration H.I.V.E., and also mis-calculated the actual number of vermin.  Here's how the actions break down:

Evil bastard Druid 9 casts Insect Plague and uses Dark Speech to bind it into a hivemind, creating the first-iteration H.I.V.E. (4,500 vermin members).
One member of the first-iteration H.I.V.E. wishes a Scroll of Genesis into existence.
One member of the first-iteration H.I.V.E. uses the Scroll of Genesis to create a demiplane for the rest to retreat to.
500 members of the first-iteration H.I.V.E. cast Plane Shift to send the entire first-iteration H.I.V.E. into the demiplane.
14 members of the first-iteration H.I.V.E. wish Staves of Swarming Insects into existence.
224 members of the first-iteration H.I.V.E. UMD the staves in turn, summoning 672 locust swarms into existence.
One member of the first-iteration H.I.V.E. uses Dark Speech to bind all 675 locust swarms into the second-iteration H.I.V.E. (1,012,500 vermin members, only 741 of which have taken actions this turn).

The second-iteration H.I.V.E. has a charisma of 20,254, giving it a total of 2,535 9th-level spells.  Since this is a brand-new consciousness, these spells are all ready to go.
2,535 members of the second-iteration H.I.V.E. wish Staves of Swarming Insects into existence.
40,560 members of the second-iteration H.I.V.E. UMD the staves in turn, summoning 121,680 locust swarms into existence.
One member of the second-iteration H.I.V.E. uses Dark Speech to bind all of the 122,355 locust swarms present into the third-iteration H.I.V.E. (183,532,500 vermin members, only 43,837 of which have taken actions this turn).

The third-iteration H.I.V.E. has a charisma of 3,670,654, giving it a total of 458,835 9th-level spells.  Since this is again a brand-new consciousness, these spells are all ready to go.
458,835 members of the third-iteration H.I.V.E. wish Staves of Swarming Insects into existence.
7,341,360 members of the third-iteration H.I.V.E. UMD the staves in turn, summoning 22,024,080 locust swarms into existence.
One member of the third-iteration H.I.V.E. uses Dark Speech to bind all of the 22,146,435 locust swarms present into the fourth-iteration H.I.V.E. (33,219,652,500 vermin members, only 7,385,197 of which have taken actions this turn).

The fourth-iteration H.I.V.E. has an intelligence of 664,393,054 and charisma of 664,393,054.  It has a caster level of 664,393,036, 83,049,133 9th-level spells, and approximately 11 billion BILLION (1.1 * 10^19) 8th-level spells.  It also has 33,212,267,303 standard actions with an additional 33,219,652,500 swift actions available on the turn it was created.  If, at any point, the fourth-iteration H.I.V.E. is threatened, it has more than enough spells and actions available to Plane Shift back to it's demiplane and create the fifth-iteration H.I.V.E., which is so massive and powerful that the standard calculator I've been using to make this post can't count that high.  And yet, if somehow the fifth-iteration H.I.V.E. was threatened, it, too, would have sufficient resources to retreat and create the sixth-iteration H.I.V.E., and so on, and so fourth, until it had enough resources to overpower everything in the cosmos.

In other words, the instant someone uses Dark Speech to create a Hivemind capable of casting 2 9th-level spells, the entire cosmos is conquered by H.I.V.E..  Azrael is a peasant by comparison.

Also, note that Azrael is the only one putting his character up there with the TO builds.  We all know better, and hopefully, with this, Azrael will, too.
: Re: Azrael
: KellKheraptis September 26, 2010, 08:42:55 PM
Also, bear in mind that all of this can be replicated by my Red Wizard at a moment's notice via the wonders that are Sims ;)  And unlike the true H.I.V.E. builds, they will never rebel against me :D
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 27, 2010, 06:32:12 PM
Ok, now to try and answer all of these, err most of them anyway…
1. They get there via Wish, which I assumed you'd pick up from my later mention of it. So saying they can't get there doesn't really work.
3. Could you explain your contingency? The only rules that exist are for things that happen to you, so you couldn't word it on something like a creature appearing near you unless you want to leave the realm of strict RAW and argue that the word "usually" in craft contingent spell lets you do other things. Alternatively, if you're using the spell "contingency", then that's fine, although you can only have one and I'm not sure what it would be (remember, 6th level spell at most; what is this contingency going to do, exactly?), and I'm going to grant that "Uses Wish to transport to somewhere within 200 feet of me" probably isn't too convoluted. Alternatively, if you just meant the general sense of "contingency", could you describe in more detail what you mean?
Do I have to explain my contingency, it should be something like “if anyone uses the spell wish or miracle (or an ability which emulates such a spell) to transport themselves anywhere within 2 miles of me cast timestop”…I don’t see how that wouldn’t work…as you said yourself.
Also, I can, and do use my normal contingency to cast 9th level spells because its 1/3 of your caster level…my caster level is over 2000, which means I can easily get a 9th level spell.
4. Could you explain to me why Kingdoms of Kalamar (EDIT: And yes, I'm looking at the Player's Guide) is legit? It's a 3.0 3rd party sourcebook that, as far as I can tell from the information on its Table of Contents page, was only published under the OGL license (like all 3rd party sourcebooks). I might be missing something, though.
Actually the Kingdoms of Kalimar has a 3.5 update booklet (which changes very little and certainly doesn’t change irresistible spell) thus making it 3.5 legal…and since when don’t people use 3.0 stuff that hasn’t been updated on this board? I seem to recall a whole shit load of Oriental Adventures stuff being used.
Are you trying to make me look like the bad guy by citing things that don't exist?...please, by all means, do quote the section where I directly insulted you.

(please do pay attention)...what a stupid argument... shows how much you know...

And that's only the explicit stuff (mind, I don't buy that "I didn't directly insult you" bullshit that everyone under the age of 10 uses, and if the fact that I'm pointing out your complete inability to construct a rational argument seems like a personal attack, well, I'm not DIRECTLY insulting you, right?). I'm not arguing that your character isn't powerful; he is. I'm arguing that he CAN be defeated by legal builds, and you're just moving the goalposts in an attempt to hide your original overblown statements. I like the stealth edits to your post, by the way. And congratulations on the "I'm leaving, this argument isn't worth my time" approach.
You can choose to take it as an insult but I was just attempting to make a matter-of-fact statement…now an insult would be if I called you a douchebag or something.
Uhm, no, you're wrong, actually. Theoretical refers to optimization that would never see use in an actual game; just as you never see a character actually playing Pun-Pun, you'll never see somebody playing Azrael. Shows how much you know.
The word hypocrite comes to mind…

Speaking of which, and I would like to go on the record as having said this on multiple occasions…I like it how when I bring in a certain build all people ever seem to do is try and tear it down (save for Kell) yet when people like Kahn made Pun-Pun all people tried to do was help him make it more powerful…and trust me, Pun-Pun DOESN’T all come from Kahn himself. Several people assisted him in finalizing the build…so far I can take full credit for Azrael and all the ingenuity that went into creating him…but I’m only one man…I’m sure if I haven’t thought of a way (and I’m pretty sure that last wish contingency finalizes it) to beat H.I.V.E. someone can think up a way for Azrael to do it.

Ok, a few things.

1) You still have not answered how you are getting that many creatures crammed into 30ft around you. I can concede that you can get a pretty large number, but I don't think as large as you are claiming.
I’m pretty sure everyone else is aware of this already but ill answer it anyway…Consumptive field has a duration…he can just walk around a forest and every little forest animal with less than 9 hp (which is a lot) will just drop dead. It doesn’t have to occur all at once.
2) This can only raise your CL by up to 1/2 your original CL. That means that at best you get CL 30.
Your original CL would be your starting CL when you cast the spell, you cast one spell, you get 30, you cast the second and your original CL is now 30 so you get 45…etc. This isn’t even my idea, I read this a long time ago on the boards…might have been Twice Betrayer or something.
3) You also do not get a feat slot if they have a duplicate feat to the person they are being fused to. It says that if both have a feat, then you only get the feat once.
Well, one could argue that stacking feats, such as extra turning, you would gain multiple times, since any character can have as many of them as he wants…but he can just switch around his feats with psy ref so that none of them match any of the feats of the person hes about to absorb, he absorbs them, then afterwards changes his feats to whatever he wants with psy ref.
4) Use of several different campaign settings certainly seems to border on TO to me, especially when one of them is 3.0 and 3rd party.
As if we haven’t seen feats from different campaign settings mixed before…and Kingdoms of Kalimar is not 3rd party…notice the official D&D seal on the top of the book…that means its official baby…now a book like swords and sorcery, or hyperconscious is 3rd party because It lacks that seal…but people seem to use them anyway (at least hyperconscious).
5) Also, from the MIC:
 Some body slots are described as a matched pair of body parts
(such as arms, feet, or hands). If an item uses one of these body
slots, it takes up both “halves” of the body slot even if worn on
only one of the pair. For example, a glove of storing takes up the
entire hands body slot, even though it’s only one glove.
Similarly,
items that come in pairs must be worn together in order to function—
wearing a single gauntlet of ogre power has no effect.
Ok, I guess I’ll have to get rid of one of his casting gloves…no big deal.
Bear in mind any sort of CoP contest is an auto-stalemate, as it is time-dependent.  Whether the HIVE can do so more efficiently is a moot point when both HIVE and Az have infinite time available to them.  Also, whether the wish transit is a teleportation or not, it physically dumps them well within range of Az's anticipate teleport, which IIRC spells out all forms of "poof, I'm here" and delays it.  And even if it doesn't, contingent irresistable telekinesis ensures they're shoved out of range of true sight, assuming he doesn't simply set the contingency to something more unpleasant to small component synergetic creatures.  Like CL N irresistable circle of death/reserves of strength NI damage blast.

Your stalemate with the HIVE, at least initially, comes from having N actions at N+1 initiative count, effectively the same as an Ardent 10 with Dominant Ideal and mantle shuffle.  Again, while he doesn't auto-win (same reason for stalemate as a Wizard, as a fully closed demiplane is just that, untouchable), he won't auto-lose either.  And unless HIVE has a respawn plan, eventually Az would get around to picking it apart at its components.

And no, touchsight looks right past Darkstalker.  In fact, touchsight has nothing at all to do with sight, and is in fact telekinetic touch at a distance.  He's literally fingering the surrounding space, and the surrounding space in all coterminous planes, with his mind.  There have been threads about this, and thus far to my knowledge, nothing can bypass transdimensional touchsight.  It is the bane of sneaky types, and they just have to deal with it (or use White Raven maneuvers and pray their target isn't immune, which Az is).

Thank you Kell, at least one person is helping me out…good idea on the telekinesis btw

Also, I think you guys forgot to mention…and this one is important so im gonna bold it. Unless all members of hive can share a single spell with all members of H.I.V.E. then only ONE member can approach me using timestop…and I highly doubt one member can defeat me lol.

Therefore, with my new contingencies no one, let alone H.I.V.E. can approach Azrael without him knowing about it…game,set, match…guess it’s another stalemate…

I will concede that it is very possible to build a demiplane which cannot be effectively attacked or invaded, however anyone with Genesis can do that. It would come down to a battle of Astrally projected characters, attacking each other within altered time-streams, one kills the other with a superior number of actions, then they immediately return to life on their own demiplane. By this logic, just about ANY Caster level 18+ (to include sorcerers) is unkillable, or close to it.
Exactly, which basically proves I win…as long as I can make a demiplane no one else can access I will always auto-revive, find out what will kill me, and gain infinite actions and go defeat them. Unless H.I.V.E. does have an auto-revive contingency like mine…I win.
I am not trying to argue that Azrael is weak, he isn't. He simply isn't the unbeatable, kill all, haha I win, God that the OP clearly imagines him to be. That said. Kell, you make a much more convincing and well reasoned argument than he. Thank you.
You mean like the argument that turned you into an ice penguin…or basically disproved everything else you said up until now (see time stop argument; though I could be wrong if H.I.V.E. can indeed share a single spell with all members).

And the HIVE's respawn plan only needs to consist of seeding billions of portions of itself across the multiverse and having them create their own HIVEs. Or mind-raping a psion long enough to Fuse with it and then mind-seed some suckers

And why can’t Azrael find out about these and kill them off?

Let's do one better.  This requires no contingency, by the way...Metamagic Effect a Maw of Chaos at NI CL.  Now start Widening to taste.  So much for getting close to him...

Sorry, missed this one when I posted :P  Azrael never said his iconic was undefeatable, but he effectively is.  Any number of builds can stalemate him, that's easy.  But nothing per se can ultimately kill him, and in 3.5 achieving that status is frighteningly easy.  Also, the way he goes about it leaves a LOT of room for offensive power, giving him a leg up on the competition.  He is similar to the HIVE in a lot of ways, drawing from within instead of without, and using open-ended spells and powers to match their more ridiculous abilities.  And remember, each member of his fusion can also have a contingency active upon their person, and a number of contingent crafts up to the limit of that feat.  Combine with the usual "I fuck with time" routine, and it's effectively no more effective than having only the usual limit, which is most likely why he didn't bother to mention it.  Between his immunity to surprise and ability to always act under any circumstance, the best you can hope to do bringing infinite actions to bear on him is match his infinite actions.

So, wait…where do I put it….is it just….everywhere? Also, people with favor of the martyr (which I’m sure H.I.V.E. has) would be immune to the daze.

Again, thanks for explaining the ways he is actually better than a normal 20th level wiz…didn’t think about the everyone having a contingency…though they would all have to be able to cast it themselves…and most cannot…However, I can have 2053 contingencies on myself if I thought I needed them…I didn’t think I would.


Just pointing out that he DID say Azrael is undefeatable. Honestly, the only reason I'm in this thread is hubris; Azrael is an absurdly powerful character, but he doesn't do anything original. He just combines all the other tricks that high level Wizards do with a trick that a high level Psion does, and then throws in some 3rd party stuff (Irresistable Spell, unless someone can tell me why the book is a legitimate source) and misread Fusion to give multiples of feats (Azrael doesn't have as many spell slots as he thinks he does, among other things). Also, since a fused being is only one being, it cannot have multiple contingencies (or other effects that a creature can only have one of).
Again, NOT 3rd PARTY, HAS OFFICIAL SEAL, didn’t misread fusion (see above), and CAN have multiple contingencies since craft contingent spell is based off CL and he has unlimited money from supernatural wish…and you’re saying the stuff I say is unfounded…you didn’t even read Craft Contingent Spell.
 
I'd not be posting in this thread nearly as much if Azrael (the poster) had shown any degree of modesty at all, shown some original thought in creating the build, not talked his build in the manner of a stereotypical (that's an important word, by the way) nerd arguing that Sephiroth could totally beat Goku in a fight, or had any sort of reputation as somebody who builds silly-powerful, complicated characters abusing poorly thought out rules (like your uses of Circle Magic, Kell). As it is, the OP sounded like somebody saying, "I'm the bestest optimizer EVAR". And while he's certainly good (and seriously, kudos on just doing the grunt work necessary to put Azrael (here the character) together, that's a lot of books to check), it seems like he cares too much about his e-peen, which is unfortunate because, no matter how big it is, it never built a Star Destroyer (I may be using Tsuyo as a reference too much, but he's become synonymous with absurdly amazing charop stuff in my mind).
Oh, I was modest…that is before Fallen Angle thought he could defeat me with a pathetic artificer and have the Hubris do then insinuate his artificer could then defeat Pun-Pun…that’s when I started…if you’ll notice, all the posts before then were quite humble.

P.S. Never played ff7, and I hate DBZ…yeah…I’m the stereotype…I much prefer a good anime…like Death Note…you know, something with a plot…ill bold this one for emphasis For someone that claimed I was making childish insults (which I wasn’t, imo) you sure are one large hypocrite…and I would much rather be a stereotypical nerd than a hypocrite :D If I really did care about my ‘e peen’ as much as you claim I do, do you think I would stick around this board all day and post post post… No, it’s called…oh what is it…oh yeah A LIFE…I have one you know…

P.P.S. Also, I like how the only chars you can come up with that can 'supposedly' defeat Azrael are among the most popular CO chars of all time...so what does that make Azrael...3rd...4th...? And you say he doesn't belong...pfffft.


And a special thanks to Kell for all his support.


Btw, this will be the last post I make for the day, I have better things to do with my time, like go to the Sephiroth vs Goku convention downtown with all my nerdy friends, I hear its going to be quite a debate :D




: Re: Azrael
: fallen-angle September 27, 2010, 07:15:46 PM
Exactly, which basically proves I win…as long as I can make a demiplane no one else can access I will always auto-revive, find out what will kill me, and gain infinite actions and go defeat them. Unless H.I.V.E. does have an auto-revive contingency like mine…I win.

For fucks sake, no it doesn't. If YOU can have an unassailable, invincible demiplane. OTHER PEOPLE CAN HAVE ONE TOO. That means you cannot reach them. Same way they can't reach you. I've said this several times now: Nothing Azrael does is completely unique to him. COP, Genisis, Contingencies. Other casters will have these and can use them in exactly the same way.

You mean like the argument that turned you into an ice penguin…or basically disproved everything else you said up until now (see time stop argument; though I could be wrong if H.I.V.E. can indeed share a single spell with all members).

No. I mean that Kell's arguments are well worded, well reasoned and free of personal attack. Yours are haphazard and angry, they often work on the assumption that your opponent is poorly prepared, or that you have some special feature which no one else can use. Moreover they are patronizing and disrespectful, if you honestly wanted to make this character all he could be you should respond calmly, courteously. Currently the only reason anyone is debating you is because you've gone about it in a trollish fashion.

Look, it is obvious from your name that Azrael is your "special character". Most players have one, nothing wrong with that. However, Azrael is the result of grabbing several well known characters and tricks. Then using fusion to put them into one character. It would be like saying you made Superman-Goku-Sephiroth and it is therefore totally original. You cannot reasonably begin to claim that you are the sole source of all this "ingenuity" that would be an insult to all the people on these boards who do good work and engage is civil debate. People who took the time to dig through legions of books and reason out elaborate tricks, so others don't have to. Did you, without prompt from other creations on these and other forums, go an personally discover all those tricks? No, we all know you didn't. You borrowed, like everyone borrows.

P.S. You were increasingly less civil over the course of this discussion, starting mostly (and rather understandably) with the Dying Curse argument. The Artificer was meant to start debate about the original character, as the thread was rapidly getting more onto the topic of dying curses and COP. Good god people should stop debating COP.

Please don't bother to respond to this. I won't read it. I am done with this.
: Re: Azrael
: Bauglir September 27, 2010, 08:15:01 PM
Ok, now to try and answer all of these, err most of them anyway…
1. They get there via Wish, which I assumed you'd pick up from my later mention of it. So saying they can't get there doesn't really work.
3. Could you explain your contingency? The only rules that exist are for things that happen to you, so you couldn't word it on something like a creature appearing near you unless you want to leave the realm of strict RAW and argue that the word "usually" in craft contingent spell lets you do other things. Alternatively, if you're using the spell "contingency", then that's fine, although you can only have one and I'm not sure what it would be (remember, 6th level spell at most; what is this contingency going to do, exactly?), and I'm going to grant that "Uses Wish to transport to somewhere within 200 feet of me" probably isn't too convoluted. Alternatively, if you just meant the general sense of "contingency", could you describe in more detail what you mean?
Do I have to explain my contingency, it should be something like “if anyone uses the spell wish or miracle (or an ability which emulates such a spell) to transport themselves anywhere within 2 miles of me cast timestop”…I don’t see how that wouldn’t work…as you said yourself.
Also, I can, and do use my normal contingency to cast 9th level spells because its 1/3 of your caster level…my caster level is over 2000, which means I can easily get a 9th level spell.

No, you can't, the spell explicitly says "(Maximum 6th level)".

4. Could you explain to me why Kingdoms of Kalamar (EDIT: And yes, I'm looking at the Player's Guide) is legit? It's a 3.0 3rd party sourcebook that, as far as I can tell from the information on its Table of Contents page, was only published under the OGL license (like all 3rd party sourcebooks). I might be missing something, though.
Actually the Kingdoms of Kalimar has a 3.5 update booklet (which changes very little and certainly doesn’t change irresistible spell) thus making it 3.5 legal…and since when don’t people use 3.0 stuff that hasn’t been updated on this board? I seem to recall a whole shit load of Oriental Adventures stuff being used.

Yeah, I didn't know it was licensed. The update booklet is irrelevant, but if it's licensed (I'm not sure where to find that, but hey, if it's the general opinion of the boards, I'll buy that) that's fine.

Are you trying to make me look like the bad guy by citing things that don't exist?...please, by all means, do quote the section where I directly insulted you.

(please do pay attention)...what a stupid argument... shows how much you know...

And that's only the explicit stuff (mind, I don't buy that "I didn't directly insult you" bullshit that everyone under the age of 10 uses, and if the fact that I'm pointing out your complete inability to construct a rational argument seems like a personal attack, well, I'm not DIRECTLY insulting you, right?). I'm not arguing that your character isn't powerful; he is. I'm arguing that he CAN be defeated by legal builds, and you're just moving the goalposts in an attempt to hide your original overblown statements. I like the stealth edits to your post, by the way. And congratulations on the "I'm leaving, this argument isn't worth my time" approach.
You can choose to take it as an insult but I was just attempting to make a matter-of-fact statement…now an insult would be if I called you a douchebag or something.
Uhm, no, you're wrong, actually. Theoretical refers to optimization that would never see use in an actual game; just as you never see a character actually playing Pun-Pun, you'll never see somebody playing Azrael. Shows how much you know.
The word hypocrite comes to mind…

Yeah, no. Quite frankly those are as much insults as anything I've said; aside from my last post about hubris, the only "insults" I've made were repeating the very same things you said to me, as a way of making clear to you that they are, in fact, insults. The fact that you consider me a hypocrite for doing that is all the proof I need to know that you do, on some level, recognize that, and simply refuse to admit it because you're incapable of recognizing that conceding a single point doesn't condemn your entire argument to failure, even when that point actually has nothing to do with your build.

Now, that said, I have directly insulted you. You could call me a hypocrite for that. But the fact is, I haven't done that in an attempt to discredit Azrael as a powerful character, while you HAVE insulted me in an attempt to distract from the fact that he's not the MOST powerful. Again, let me repeat, he is EXTREMELY powerful. The work done to put him together must have been a ridiculous undertaking. But the act of creating him didn't require any original thought; he's just proof that Leadership, Fusion, and Genesis are broken as fuck, with a bunch of ever so slightly less broken additional things tacked on because that's one of the reasons Leadership is broken. These are things we already knew. You're due credit for putting together conclusive proof of that, but you're not due credit as a legendary optimizer. You're not due anything more than a "Oh, hey, nice job." Which is what you'd have gotten if you didn't start this thread out as a challenge and continued posting like every attempt to fulfil the challenge that YOU proclaimed was an assault on your pride.

Speaking of which, and I would like to go on the record as having said this on multiple occasions…I like it how when I bring in a certain build all people ever seem to do is try and tear it down (save for Kell) yet when people like Kahn made Pun-Pun all people tried to do was help him make it more powerful…and trust me, Pun-Pun DOESN’T all come from Kahn himself. Several people assisted him in finalizing the build…so far I can take full credit for Azrael and all the ingenuity that went into creating him…but I’m only one man…I’m sure if I haven’t thought of a way (and I’m pretty sure that last wish contingency finalizes it) to beat H.I.V.E. someone can think up a way for Azrael to do it.

Ok, you know what? When Khan put up Pun-Pun, he didn't say, "This is the most powerful character ever, he's so much better than all your builds, just TRY and take him down and I'll tell you why you can't." He said, "This is the most powerful character ever! What do you guys think?" That's the key, here. And when people DID try to tear down Pun-Pun, which they certainly did, he (and others) calmly explained WHY the trick worked, and why the opinions of people who disagreed were (often perfectly reasonable) houserules. He did NOT make it a matter of his own pride, which you have, and THAT is why people are trying to tear your build down. It's ENTIRELY an attitude problem. I don't know if you noticed, but I started out in this thread pretty neutral, and in fact assumed Azrael to be nearly invincible, but your behavior towards the challengers has convinced me that you do NOT deserve my respect.

Also, I think you guys forgot to mention…and this one is important so im gonna bold it. Unless all members of hive can share a single spell with all members of H.I.V.E. then only ONE member can approach me using timestop…and I highly doubt one member can defeat me lol.

Therefore, with my new contingencies no one, let alone H.I.V.E. can approach Azrael without him knowing about it…game,set, match…guess it’s another stalemate…

Yeah, ok, except they CAN approach you because each one will just ready its Time Stop approach to begin after another member, so that the first one gets obliterated by your contingencies and the next is fine. I've not got a way around Kell's Maw of Chaos, though, I'll need to give that one some thought later. Got grad school apps to write, so I don't have time to go book diving today.

I will concede that it is very possible to build a demiplane which cannot be effectively attacked or invaded, however anyone with Genesis can do that. It would come down to a battle of Astrally projected characters, attacking each other within altered time-streams, one kills the other with a superior number of actions, then they immediately return to life on their own demiplane. By this logic, just about ANY Caster level 18+ (to include sorcerers) is unkillable, or close to it.
Exactly, which basically proves I win…as long as I can make a demiplane no one else can access I will always auto-revive, find out what will kill me, and gain infinite actions and go defeat them. Unless H.I.V.E. does have an auto-revive contingency like mine…I win.
I am not trying to argue that Azrael is weak, he isn't. He simply isn't the unbeatable, kill all, haha I win, God that the OP clearly imagines him to be. That said. Kell, you make a much more convincing and well reasoned argument than he. Thank you.
You mean like the argument that turned you into an ice penguin…or basically disproved everything else you said up until now (see time stop argument; though I could be wrong if H.I.V.E. can indeed share a single spell with all members).

Uhm, no, you just can't argue. Even if you're right, your argumentative technique is pretty shitty. That's all he meant. Incidentally, your demiplane isn't unassailable since Wish bypasses any defenses you have set up to keep people out, and they can approach via essentially instantaneous (not really, but it all happens one after another within the space of a single round with no interruptions possible except readied actions contingent on their arrival or something) readied action Time Stop Wishporting.

And the HIVE's respawn plan only needs to consist of seeding billions of portions of itself across the multiverse and having them create their own HIVEs. Or mind-raping a psion long enough to Fuse with it and then mind-seed some suckers

And why can’t Azrael find out about these and kill them off?

Because they're protected by the H.I.V.E in the same manner as the H.I.V.E itself?

Let's do one better.  This requires no contingency, by the way...Metamagic Effect a Maw of Chaos at NI CL.  Now start Widening to taste.  So much for getting close to him...

Sorry, missed this one when I posted :P  Azrael never said his iconic was undefeatable, but he effectively is.  Any number of builds can stalemate him, that's easy.  But nothing per se can ultimately kill him, and in 3.5 achieving that status is frighteningly easy.  Also, the way he goes about it leaves a LOT of room for offensive power, giving him a leg up on the competition.  He is similar to the HIVE in a lot of ways, drawing from within instead of without, and using open-ended spells and powers to match their more ridiculous abilities.  And remember, each member of his fusion can also have a contingency active upon their person, and a number of contingent crafts up to the limit of that feat.  Combine with the usual "I fuck with time" routine, and it's effectively no more effective than having only the usual limit, which is most likely why he didn't bother to mention it.  Between his immunity to surprise and ability to always act under any circumstance, the best you can hope to do bringing infinite actions to bear on him is match his infinite actions.

So, wait…where do I put it….is it just….everywhere? Also, people with favor of the martyr (which I’m sure H.I.V.E. has) would be immune to the daze.

Again, thanks for explaining the ways he is actually better than a normal 20th level wiz…didn’t think about the everyone having a contingency…though they would all have to be able to cast it themselves…and most cannot…However, I can have 2053 contingencies on myself if I thought I needed them…I didn’t think I would.

Actually, no you can't, because a single creature can only have a single contingency. Even if you have 2053 on your component creatures, you only get to have one active as a Fused being.


Just pointing out that he DID say Azrael is undefeatable. Honestly, the only reason I'm in this thread is hubris; Azrael is an absurdly powerful character, but he doesn't do anything original. He just combines all the other tricks that high level Wizards do with a trick that a high level Psion does, and then throws in some 3rd party stuff (Irresistable Spell, unless someone can tell me why the book is a legitimate source) and misread Fusion to give multiples of feats (Azrael doesn't have as many spell slots as he thinks he does, among other things). Also, since a fused being is only one being, it cannot have multiple contingencies (or other effects that a creature can only have one of).
Again, NOT 3rd PARTY, HAS OFFICIAL SEAL, didn’t misread fusion (see above), and CAN have multiple contingencies since craft contingent spell is based off CL and he has unlimited money from supernatural wish…and you’re saying the stuff I say is unfounded…you didn’t even read Craft Contingent Spell.

Allow me to quote the section on Contingent Spells!

: Complete Arcane 139
 Triggers for contingent spells are usually events that happen to the bearer of the spell, and can include death, contracting disease, exposure to a breath weapon or to energy damage, falling, exposure to poison, exposure to a dangerous environment (trapped by fire, plunged underwater, and so forth), succumbing to sleep or fear effects, gaining negative levels, or being rendered helpless, deafened, or blinded.

Now, you can argue that the open-ended nature of "usually" implies that other triggers are legitimate, but that's the exact sort of "TO" (by your original definition) that Azrael supposedly avoids! There are no rules for Contingent Spells that don't trigger on things that affect you, and that's literally all I've been saying. You must not have read Craft Contingent Spell.

I'd not be posting in this thread nearly as much if Azrael (the poster) had shown any degree of modesty at all, shown some original thought in creating the build, not talked his build in the manner of a stereotypical (that's an important word, by the way) nerd arguing that Sephiroth could totally beat Goku in a fight, or had any sort of reputation as somebody who builds silly-powerful, complicated characters abusing poorly thought out rules (like your uses of Circle Magic, Kell). As it is, the OP sounded like somebody saying, "I'm the bestest optimizer EVAR". And while he's certainly good (and seriously, kudos on just doing the grunt work necessary to put Azrael (here the character) together, that's a lot of books to check), it seems like he cares too much about his e-peen, which is unfortunate because, no matter how big it is, it never built a Star Destroyer (I may be using Tsuyo as a reference too much, but he's become synonymous with absurdly amazing charop stuff in my mind).
Oh, I was modest…that is before Fallen Angle thought he could defeat me with a pathetic artificer and have the Hubris do then insinuate his artificer could then defeat Pun-Pun…that’s when I started…if you’ll notice, all the posts before then were quite humble.

Not really. That post I quoted about you saying he couldn't be defeated? That was well before fallen-angle posted anything about an artificer.

P.S. Never played ff7, and I hate DBZ…yeah…I’m the stereotype…I much prefer a good anime…like Death Note…you know, something with a plot…ill bold this one for emphasis For someone that claimed I was making childish insults (which I wasn’t, imo) you sure are one large hypocrite…and I would much rather be a stereotypical nerd than a hypocrite :D If I really did care about my ‘e peen’ as much as you claim I do, do you think I would stick around this board all day and post post post… No, it’s called…oh what is it…oh yeah A LIFE…I have one you know…

P.P.S. Also, I like how the only chars you can come up with that can 'supposedly' defeat Azrael are among the most popular CO chars of all time...so what does that make Azrael...3rd...4th...? And you say he doesn't belong...pfffft.

I'm not sure that my argument is what you think it is. I'm saying, "Azrael can possibly be defeated" with a side argument of "Azrael is just proof of things we already knew. Hooray." The statements about childish insults mostly refer to the fact that you use arguments like, "No, it's called... oh what is it... oh yeah A LIFE... I have one you know..." I mean, I insult you, sure, but only when it's actually relevant to my argument at the time (which is generally that you have way too high an opinion of yourself, and expect everyone else to have it too) instead of random side comments. I mean, if you think the reason ad hominem is a logical fallacy is because it hurts people's feelings, then you know as little about debate as I think you do. Plus, I don't think my insults are THAT childish. So there. (Please realize that last sentence was a joke)

EDIT: Fixed a broken quote tag and finished a barely relevant sentence I trailed off during the middle of. Also to address feat retraining: if you PsyRef those feats, then the component creatures now have identical feats which overlap rather than stacking.
: Re: Azrael
: Archmage Joda September 27, 2010, 11:15:36 PM
Personally, I'm still wondering about the mad linguist's claim of destroying the entire ethereal plane and how he'd manage that. Was the Well of Worlds + Sphere of Annihilation thing the only way, or was there something else?
: Re: Azrael
: KellKheraptis September 27, 2010, 11:20:53 PM
Two clarifications :

1)Nothing stopping a demiplane from moving if it's also a Stronghold >.>

2)The Maw Of Chaos would be centered on Azrael with Extraordinary Spell Aim and move with him, at an arbitrarily wide radius.

And 3)Remember Pun-pun's trick for infinite transdimensional reach?  THAT could theoretically destroy (a) plane(s), but nothing supports such.  To my knowledge, there is no support for actual eradication of an entire plane, merely decimation of all matter on it.
: Re: Azrael
: The_Mad_Linguist September 27, 2010, 11:31:50 PM
Two clarifications :

1)Nothing stopping a demiplane from moving if it's also a Stronghold >.>

No rules for making a demiplane into a stronghold either.  You can make a stronghold that's in a demiplane, but I don't see any demiplanes listed under construction materials.
: Re: Azrael
: X-Codes September 27, 2010, 11:54:04 PM
Looking at Maw of Chaos, I don't think it's actually a problem.  Azrael would have to actually get an action in before H.I.V.E. would take the damage.  It would still likely have to make a Concentration check, but the DC is a pittance at this level of play, and there's no auto-fail on skill checks.
: Re: Azrael
: KellKheraptis September 27, 2010, 11:58:42 PM
Looking at Maw of Chaos, I don't think it's actually a problem.  Azrael would have to actually get an action in before H.I.V.E. would take the damage.  It would still likely have to make a Concentration check, but the DC is a pittance at this level of play, and there's no auto-fail on skill checks.

Read it again.  For once we don't care about dazing with it.  It's the 2000+d6 per round persistent damage at arbitrarily wide range that hoses HIVE.  Individually they are insects, as the H.I.V.E. they are powerful.  MoC targets each individually.  Buh-bye.  Oh, and even if they go in with an AMF, Az has Initiate of Mystra, so they only fuck themselves.  And he can cast it as a Supernatural Spell to prevent dispelling, then persist it with metamagic effect.
: Re: Azrael
: The_Mad_Linguist September 28, 2010, 12:02:30 AM
HIVE is chaotic, is it not?
: Re: Azrael
: Bauglir September 28, 2010, 12:20:07 AM
Hey, I just thought of something. One member Wishports an assload of H.I.V.E members with a billion actions readied to Disjunction Azrael's space and then another billion with readied planeshifts to take him out of the plane. Are veils supernatural? If so that's a problem. I don't think Disjunction drops supernatural effects. I've gotta look at the wording on Initiate of Mystra, though; does it allow your spells to ignore AMFs and suchlike, or does it affect any effect you generate; if the former, you can't supernatural spell it because a supernatural ability isn't a spell.
: Re: Azrael
: TheEndIsNear September 28, 2010, 12:32:02 AM
Using Dark Speech to create H.I.V.E. instead of taking Verminlord to become it yourself results in a more powerful H.I.V.E., anyway.  Regardless, here's all you need to know about H.I.V.E., pulled from BoVD:

: Book of Vile Darkness p34
Hivemind

As a side effect of some evil spiritual presence or dark blessing, vermin and certain animals can take on a sort of evil consciousness shared among a large group, though each individual member retains little or no intellect.  When a hivemind forms, each individual creature becomes just a tiny part of a much larger, much greater intelligence.  But even the most craven sages do not understand how or why hiveminds develop.

If at least 50 vermin or animals of the same species are arranged so that no one individual is more than 10 feed from another individual, the hivemind may come into effect.  All the creatures operate with an Intelligence of 5, even if they previously had no Intelligence score (as with vermin).  The creatures' Intelligence score increases by +1 for every 20 individuals (beyond the first 50) in the hivemind, up to an Intelligence of 10 for a hivemind of 150 creatures.  Beyond the 150-creature threshold, Intelligence increases by +1 for every 50 additional individuals.  Thus, a swarm of 500 rats would have a hivemind Intelligence of 17.  For every point of Intelligence bonus possessed by the hivemind, award each individual creature one feat and 1 skill point per Hit Die.  Intelligence-based skill bonuses increase accordingly.  So the 500 rats in the swarm (Int 17, +3 bonus) would each have 3 extra skill points and three feats.  In this case, they gain a +3 bonus on Hide checks and the feats Alertness, Skill Focus (Move Silently) and Weapon Focus (bite).

The increase to Intelligence gained for every creature in the hivemind over 50 also applies to Charisma.  So, a hivemind of 500 rats (normal Charisma score 2) has a Charisma score of 14.

If a hivemind attains a Charisma score of 18 or higher, it gains the ability to cast spells as a sorcerer.  For every point of Charisma over 17, the hivemind has one level of sorcerer.  A hivemind of 1,000 rats has a Charisma of 22, so it would cast spells as a 5th-level sorcerer, for example.  The hivemind has six cantrips, eight 1st-level spells, and six 2nd-level spells each day.  Any single creature can cast one of the hivemind's spells, but those spell slots are then lost to other creatures in the hivemind.  Creatures in a hivemind have no need for somatic or material components, and their squeaks, screeches, or clicks serve as verbal components.

When creatures in a hivemind attack, they all gain a +1 insight bonus on their attack rolls and a +1 insight bonus to their Armor Class.  Each creature knows the actions of every other member of the hivemind.  The entire hivemind is aware of what every individual is experiencing.

So, if we were to say that a 9th-level Druid casts the spell Insect Plague and then uses Dark Speech to turn the summoned swarms into a hivemind, you'd have a swarm of 4,500 vermin.  That gives the first-iteration H.I.V.E. an intelligence of 97 and a charisma of 94.  It casts spells as a 76th-level Sorcerer, with spells per day (before feats) of 6/17/17/16/16/16/16/15/15/15.  The swarm has 43 * 4500 bonus feats (193,500 total). The first-iteration H.I.V.E. takes Extra Spell, with each member of the swarm picking a different spell (essentially learning all sub-9th Sor/Wiz spells in existence).  They also take Dark Speech.  The Swarm then takes the Extra Slot feat using it's remaining feats, resulting in having a final count of 189014 8th-level spell slots.  Even if you use all your 5th+ slots for CoP, the first-iteration H.I.V.E. will out-CoP you at a rate of over 390:1.  In other words, for each year you spend using CoP to gain information, H.I.V.E. can match with a single day's preparation.

The first-iteration H.I.V.E. can then use CoP to determine whether or not anyone is capable of overpowering them. If someone can, the first-iteration H.I.V.E. casts Genesis, retreats to it's demiplane, UMD's a (toothipcik-sized) Staff of Swarming Insects (brought into being via Wish) to cast Insect Plague as a 9th-level Druid 16 more times, and then uses Dark Speech to unify the entirety into one massive second-iteration H.I.V.E. of 1,224,000 vermin with an Intelligence of 24,487 and a Charisma of 24,484.  They have 12,238 bonus feats per member, and when spent on Extra Slot they wind up with just shy of 15 BILLION 8th-level spells per day and 2,814 9th-level spells per day, cast at a CL of 24,866, out-CoPing you at a rate of almost 31 MILLION TO ONE.  In other words, the second-iteration H.I.V.E. can cast as many CoPs in one day as you can in 85 THOUSAND YEARS.

Owned so bad.
: Re: Azrael
: KellKheraptis September 28, 2010, 12:58:42 AM
HIVE is chaotic, is it not?

I thought merely evil, as Dark Speech doesn't have a Chaotic requirement as well as an Evil one.  If it is the former only (IIRC it only had one aligned element), opens up new possibilities...might not help here, but certainly makes warlocks more fun if you wanna abuse it :P

Hey, I just thought of something. One member Wishports an assload of H.I.V.E members with a billion actions readied to Disjunction Azrael's space and then another billion with readied planeshifts to take him out of the plane. Are veils supernatural? If so that's a problem. I don't think Disjunction drops supernatural effects. I've gotta look at the wording on Initiate of Mystra, though; does it allow your spells to ignore AMFs and suchlike, or does it affect any effect you generate; if the former, you can't supernatural spell it because a supernatural ability isn't a spell.

His own AMF is ESA'd most likely to allow the veils to function.  And the readied disjunctions and planeshifts are all neutralized by his own infinite readied actions, available on Turn (N-1), same as HIVE can generate.  Another effective stalemate, but a pretty light show for the onlookers before they're atomized, at least.

Owned so bad.

Read the post about infinite actions vs. infinite actions.  No ownage taking place there, other than the entire plane being rendered a wasteland, and most likely the planet in it being blown into a particle field.
: Re: Azrael
: Bauglir September 28, 2010, 01:42:41 AM
Actually I meant that you could use your own AMF to drop his Veils (and his Supernatural Spell buffs) if they're supernatural. If they're spell-like, they can be Disjunctioned. If they're extraordinary, what the FUCK were the people who wrote that class smoking, and where can I get some? Does Initiate of Mystra specifically refer to spells, though, or is there some weird wording that lets it apply to anything BASED on a spell?

And he loses his infinite actions when Disjunctioned; the HIVE does not. And the attacker has the advantage here; neither can know the other is coming because of Mind Blank stopping CoP, and contigencies are dealt with by the fact that the HIVE has vastly more individuals that can have true contingencies that don't require something to actually affect you in order to trigger. Even if you argue that Azrael can have as many contingencies as he has people fused into him, he loses by not having an arbitrarily large number of people fused into him (unless he replicates the HIVE's main schtick, which then DOES result in a stalemate as each opponent is identical to the other since the HIVE can mindrape a Psion into fusing them, too). Also, I think the HIVE's infinite actions diverge faster than Azrael's, although I could be wrong about how the infinities interact. It's been a while since calc, so I could very easily be wrong.
: Re: Azrael
: KellKheraptis September 28, 2010, 01:59:17 AM
Actually I meant that you could use your own AMF to drop his Veils (and his Supernatural Spell buffs) if they're supernatural. If they're spell-like, they can be Disjunctioned. If they're extraordinary, what the FUCK were the people who wrote that class smoking, and where can I get some? Does Initiate of Mystra specifically refer to spells, though, or is there some weird wording that lets it apply to anything BASED on a spell?

And he loses his infinite actions when Disjunctioned; the HIVE does not. And the attacker has the advantage here; neither can know the other is coming because of Mind Blank stopping CoP, and contigencies are dealt with by the fact that the HIVE has vastly more individuals that can have true contingencies that don't require something to actually affect you in order to trigger. Even if you argue that Azrael can have as many contingencies as he has people fused into him, he loses by not having an arbitrarily large number of people fused into him (unless he replicates the HIVE's main schtick, which then DOES result in a stalemate as each opponent is identical to the other since the HIVE can mindrape a Psion into fusing them, too). Also, I think the HIVE's infinite actions diverge faster than Azrael's, although I could be wrong about how the infinities interact. It's been a while since calc, so I could very easily be wrong.

Maw of Chaos prevents using HIVE's AMF.  He can't get his components close enough to use it, and even if he does, he is affected by it the moment he enters range, and that section bearing the AMF dies (most likely along with a contingent MDJ to go along with it, keyed to interaction with the MoC or Consumptive Field, as that would trigger too, making Az even stronger).  They are indeed Sp (the veils), but getting to them is the trick.  And also, the deal with opposed infinite actions in this case is both time altering effects are effectively both relative and arbitrary.  As both exist outside the time stream, who goes first is now irrelevant, since that can be amended retroactively.  Last but not least, mind blank is NOT proof against CoP!  Ever!  CoP relative to yourself ALWAYS works.  That is why it is broken beyond Polymorph.
: Re: Azrael
: Bauglir September 28, 2010, 02:39:34 AM
Actually I meant that you could use your own AMF to drop his Veils (and his Supernatural Spell buffs) if they're supernatural. If they're spell-like, they can be Disjunctioned. If they're extraordinary, what the FUCK were the people who wrote that class smoking, and where can I get some? Does Initiate of Mystra specifically refer to spells, though, or is there some weird wording that lets it apply to anything BASED on a spell?

And he loses his infinite actions when Disjunctioned; the HIVE does not. And the attacker has the advantage here; neither can know the other is coming because of Mind Blank stopping CoP, and contigencies are dealt with by the fact that the HIVE has vastly more individuals that can have true contingencies that don't require something to actually affect you in order to trigger. Even if you argue that Azrael can have as many contingencies as he has people fused into him, he loses by not having an arbitrarily large number of people fused into him (unless he replicates the HIVE's main schtick, which then DOES result in a stalemate as each opponent is identical to the other since the HIVE can mindrape a Psion into fusing them, too). Also, I think the HIVE's infinite actions diverge faster than Azrael's, although I could be wrong about how the infinities interact. It's been a while since calc, so I could very easily be wrong.

Maw of Chaos prevents using HIVE's AMF.  He can't get his components close enough to use it, and even if he does, he is affected by it the moment he enters range, and that section bearing the AMF dies (most likely along with a contingent MDJ to go along with it, keyed to interaction with the MoC or Consumptive Field, as that would trigger too, making Az even stronger).  They are indeed Sp (the veils), but getting to them is the trick.  And also, the deal with opposed infinite actions in this case is both time altering effects are effectively both relative and arbitrary.  As both exist outside the time stream, who goes first is now irrelevant, since that can be amended retroactively.  Last but not least, mind blank is NOT proof against CoP!  Ever!  CoP relative to yourself ALWAYS works.  That is why it is broken beyond Polymorph.

Eschew Materials for components? I'm just thinking a trick along the lines of Initiate of Mystra, which the Swarm easily has enough feats for, combined with AMF and then a Wishport readied to go off when another member casts Disjunction (the Wishport goes off before the Disjunction completes, and then the Disjunction goes off). Azrael has a finite number of non-Craft Contingent Spells available, and every single one of them goes off unless he reserved it for some reason; if he did, it doesn't matter, because the HIVE can easily send more than 2053 waves. Presumably they were all set for Greater Celerity (which, IIRC, isn't above 6th level and is thus a legal spell), but so were the Swarm's (significantly larger number) contingencies set to go off whenever somebody with line of effect to the Swarm is subject to any spell from the Celerity line (plus additional ones for every single buff in the game).

Azrael's Crafted Contingent Spells are arbitrarily many, but they require him to be affected; if he's affected by a disjunction, his crafted spells are disjoined. If he's not affected, they don't trigger.

The swarm may well die (since, as you say, they're affected instantaneously), but all its actions still go off; Azrael has his buffs still, because the veils blocked LoE, but the veils are now gone (having been Disjunctioned). Maw of Chaos is gone, as well, as are any non-supernatural effects Azrael did not have on his person (and his supernatural effects are suppressed inside an AMF). But actually, this swarm was just the one that readied to do all this when a different swarm set up its own Wishport-Disjunction-Kaboom routine, which now appears.

Incidentally, why does Mind Blank not stop CoP? Any information pertaining to the fight really is gathering information about anyone who will participate, or at least that's the way it goes. Still, I'm glad it doesn't, because anything that shifts this in favor of the offense is better; rocket tag means somebody dies, which is preferable since I want somebody to die, and the HIVE benefits equally.

EDIT: Actually, I think you need a different spell than Maw of Chaos, since it specifically only deals damage in the round in which you cast it, and at the start of each of your turns; the swarm has until Azrael's turn (in the initiative order, since it says turn and not action) comes up. Still, this really is only a particularity of the spell; another area effect with untyped damage might do it...
: Re: Azrael
: The_Mad_Linguist September 28, 2010, 02:48:48 AM
Veils are spell-like.  I know, because I toyed with a mistling fey Iot7V for a while.
: Re: Azrael
: Epoch16 September 28, 2010, 02:51:17 AM
*Note: All thralls and believers are fused into one being.

At the risk of sounding really ignorant:  How are they fused into one being?

Here is a quote from the EPH regarding Fusion:

"Targets:  You and one touched willing creature of your type and your size or smaller."

Bolded for emphasis. And another quote:

"You cannot use Fusion on a fused being."

I assume I must be missing something here. Help me out guys.
: Re: Azrael
: Bauglir September 28, 2010, 02:52:19 AM
Wait, where's that note? I know there's one about using Fission, but I missed one about Fusion (I only looked at the SRD; if it's different in the XPH, then hallelujah).
: Re: Azrael
: The_Mad_Linguist September 28, 2010, 02:53:16 AM
"you cannot use fission"

That said, I can make a pretty good argument this counts as

"Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths

In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies. "
: Re: Azrael
: Epoch16 September 28, 2010, 02:55:23 AM
Wait. Are you saying all you super optimizers missed that? Holy crap I want a gold star!  :D
: Re: Azrael
: The_Mad_Linguist September 28, 2010, 02:57:40 AM
I've always held that stance, but some people disagree upon what "different strengths" means.
: Re: Azrael
: X-Codes September 28, 2010, 03:09:54 AM
Looking at Maw of Chaos, I don't think it's actually a problem.  Azrael would have to actually get an action in before H.I.V.E. would take the damage.  It would still likely have to make a Concentration check, but the DC is a pittance at this level of play, and there's no auto-fail on skill checks.

Read it again.  For once we don't care about dazing with it.  It's the 2000+d6 per round persistent damage at arbitrarily wide range that hoses HIVE.  Individually they are insects, as the H.I.V.E. they are powerful.  MoC targets each individually.  Buh-bye.  Oh, and even if they go in with an AMF, Az has Initiate of Mystra, so they only fuck themselves.  And he can cast it as a Supernatural Spell to prevent dispelling, then persist it with metamagic effect.
The damage isn't applied when they enter the field, it's applied on the start of Azrael's turn.  All they have to do is go first, and Azrael's turn doesn't come.

@TheEndIsNear: Of course it's owned.  It's the motherfucking H.I.V.E..  The entire point of my posts is that Azrael isn't on the same level as H.I.V.E. or Pun-Pun or the Omnicificier (know I misspelled it) or anything else like that, he's just doing all the same crap Wizard 20's have been doing forever on 339 (and citing it as his own work, no less).
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 28, 2010, 05:41:04 PM
Ignoring all that nonsense which continues to bash my character....someone has to be the bigger man and end this flamewar before it gets any larger...this is obviously some large subjective interpretation error about my demeanor and motives.

1. How can I center the Maw on myself, I thought it could only be centered on a point in space, not a person...

2. I can always add a contingency to Azrael's person (and I can have 2053 because 'craft contingent spell' allows you to have as many as your CL) alerting him just before (or after since it actually takes an amount of time to destroy a plane) a sphere would be dropped into a well of worlds and stop it from occurring...but again, we are bringing artifacts in to defeat this guy...

3.
Looking at Maw of Chaos, I don't think it's actually a problem.  Azrael would have to actually get an action in before H.I.V.E. would take the damage.  It would still likely have to make a Concentration check, but the DC is a pittance at this level of play, and there's no auto-fail on skill checks.

Read it again.  For once we don't care about dazing with it.  It's the 2000+d6 per round persistent damage at arbitrarily wide range that hoses HIVE.  Individually they are insects, as the H.I.V.E. they are powerful.  MoC targets each individually.  Buh-bye.  Oh, and even if they go in with an AMF, Az has Initiate of Mystra, so they only fuck themselves.  And he can cast it as a Supernatural Spell to prevent dispelling, then persist it with metamagic effect.

Thank you. BTW, I can also maximize and empower it infinite times (which would make the maxing pretty moot) so it does infinite damage :D

4. The wishporting is now prevented because of his contingency...and the contingency does act before anyone would port in, thus giving him the first action...so no more wishporting arguments please.

5. His veils prevent AMF's from touching him...I explained this before...they stop all spells and destroy all objects and effects (if you need further proof, just look at the indigo and violet layers of a prismatic wall, it even specifically mentions AMFs fail to penetrate). Also, its up to debate whether or not Disjunction would work since it both stops all spells and destroys all objects and effects...but I mean, like you said before, if you can get close enough to him you can use either initiate of mystra, or invoke magic to cast daylight and dispel magic to get rid of them...now, this is important so ill bold it, as I mentioned in the notes section of the character, it mentions nothing about not being able to have multiple instances of the same veils active on yourself...so he probably has a googleplex layers of each. However, and ill take care of this in a minute, the issue is being able to get close to him in the first place (as Kell said)...and I believe my new argument is about to end that discussion permanently...

6. Now...inspired by Kell's Maw Idea...How about Azrael widening his AMF with metamagic effect until it gets over 120 ft in radius....

That means that nothing can perceive Azrael (because of the superior invisibility) unless they have true seeing and are within 120 ft. However, since he AMF now extends beyond 120ft and true seeing effects active prior to entering the field will automatically be negated...see where I'm going with this? This means, that in order to perceive Azrael, and thus attack him in any form, you need to have the initiate of mystra feat, move into Azrael's AMF and cast it while inside (since the initiate of mystra feat only works when used within a particular field/zone, i.e. you couldn't use the initiate of mystra feat to cast it outside his field before entering and have it still operate from within), thus (and here's the kicker) in order for anyone to attack Azrael they must first spend an action of theirs while inside his field (and they will only get one because all other actions they would receive are magically suppressed) to activate their true sight which makes Azrael both aware of their presence (the touchsight), and ALWAYS able to act first before they can possibly do any harm to him. I can also add a contingency to cast time stop if anyone successfully casts a spell while within his AMF...not that I would need it.



Am I done yet...? Have I finally proved that H.I.V.E. cannot defeat him...and I won't even use childish "gamer culture" words like owned.


A question...If I empower my bloodwind, does the 20ft attack radius increase count as a "numerical" effect, thus giving me basically infinite reach if I empower it X times?


EDIT: Oh, oh, oh...I nearly forgot...I should just have Azrael make a googleplex Ice Assassins of himself (they want to kill him, but since they have to obey him without question he has ensured that they cannot possibly commit any act which would ever cause potential harm to him), each exponentially more powerful than any individual member of H.I.V.E. I can add a contingency (don't know what yet) which alerts them when hes about to be attacked by more than x people of x CL or higher so each can gain infinite actions, port in (not within his anticipate teleportation though), and assist him...there, that wasn't so hard.

Now I has more than H.I.V.E. :D



: Re: Azrael
: X-Codes September 28, 2010, 06:18:32 PM
Ignoring all that nonsense which continues to bash my character....someone has to be the bigger man and end this flamewar before it gets any larger...this is obviously some large subjective interpretation error about my demeanor and motives.
:facepalm

Despite extremely thorough explanation and painstaking care taken to explain H.I.V.E. to you, you are clearly just too dense to comprehend the fact that your build is not as good as you think it is, and your failure to set your ego aside and acknowledge that Azrael is just a half-dozen interesting tricks ripped off of other people (tricks you clearly don't even understand given how many times you've altered the build since posting it).  Probably the last one, but I'm done with this thread.  Goodbye.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 28, 2010, 06:27:19 PM
K bye! :D

I wonder how many times Khan changed Pun-Pun and incorporated other tricks from other builds and utilized other people's ideas before he was "finished"...I wonder...
: Re: Azrael
: Bauglir September 28, 2010, 09:26:35 PM

2. I can always add a contingency to Azrael's person (and I can have 2053 because 'craft contingent spell' allows you to have as many as your CL) alerting him just before (or after since it actually takes an amount of time to destroy a plane) a sphere would be dropped into a well of worlds and stop it from occurring...but again, we are bringing artifacts in to defeat this guy...

Craft Contingent Spell only has rules for things that affect you. So no, you can't have one that triggers on Wishporting or on a sphere of annihilation dropped into a Well of Many Worlds, because you aren't your demiplane or every sphere of annihilation or Well of Many Worlds in the multiverse.

3.
Looking at Maw of Chaos, I don't think it's actually a problem.  Azrael would have to actually get an action in before H.I.V.E. would take the damage.  It would still likely have to make a Concentration check, but the DC is a pittance at this level of play, and there's no auto-fail on skill checks.

Read it again.  For once we don't care about dazing with it.  It's the 2000+d6 per round persistent damage at arbitrarily wide range that hoses HIVE.  Individually they are insects, as the H.I.V.E. they are powerful.  MoC targets each individually.  Buh-bye.  Oh, and even if they go in with an AMF, Az has Initiate of Mystra, so they only fuck themselves.  And he can cast it as a Supernatural Spell to prevent dispelling, then persist it with metamagic effect.

Thank you. BTW, I can also maximize and empower it infinite times (which would make the maxing pretty moot) so it does infinite damage :D

As has been said before, the swarm won't take damage until Azrael's turn, and if that ever comes then the battle's over anyway. It shouldn't, though, that's the point.

5. His veils prevent AMF's from touching him...I explained this before...they stop all spells and destroy all objects and effects (if you need further proof, just look at the indigo and violet layers of a prismatic wall, it even specifically mentions AMFs fail to penetrate). Also, its up to debate whether or not Disjunction would work since it both stops all spells and destroys all objects and effects...but I mean, like you said before, if you can get close enough to him you can use either initiate of mystra, or invoke magic to cast daylight and dispel magic to get rid of them...now, this is important so ill bold it, as I mentioned in the notes section of the character, it mentions nothing about not being able to have multiple instances of the same veils active on yourself...so he probably has a googleplex layers of each. However, and ill take care of this in a minute, the issue is being able to get close to him in the first place (as Kell said)...and I believe my new argument is about to end that discussion permanently...

If your veils are immune to Disjunction, the Hive members are bringing Fine Tower Shields (which they can Wish into existence) because those grant total cover to their user and, by the same reasoning as your spell effects being protected by themselves, the Tower Shields have total cover as well. All non-targeted effects can no longer affect the HIVE. Which would also block his AMF you mention below, so I presume you don't actually want this to work. Number of veils is irrelevant; the HIVE generates an actually infinite number of members in a turn, and each can pull this trick.

6. Now...inspired by Kell's Maw Idea...How about Azrael widening his AMF with metamagic effect until it gets over 120 ft in radius....

That means that nothing can perceive Azrael (because of the superior invisibility) unless they have true seeing and are within 120 ft. However, since he AMF now extends beyond 120ft and true seeing effects active prior to entering the field will automatically be negated...see where I'm going with this? This means, that in order to perceive Azrael, and thus attack him in any form, you need to have the initiate of mystra feat, move into Azrael's AMF and cast it while inside (since the initiate of mystra feat only works when used within a particular field/zone, i.e. you couldn't use the initiate of mystra feat to cast it outside his field before entering and have it still operate from within), thus (and here's the kicker) in order for anyone to attack Azrael they must first spend an action of theirs while inside his field (and they will only get one because all other actions they would receive are magically suppressed) to activate their true sight which makes Azrael both aware of their presence (the touchsight), and ALWAYS able to act first before they can possibly do any harm to him. I can also add a contingency to cast time stop if anyone successfully casts a spell while within his AMF...not that I would need it.

They get plenty of actions; each member of the swarm is aware of everything every other member is, which means only one member needs to detect Azrael for the others to attack effectively. Remember, since it's fully capable of doing so, the HIVE is Wishporting an infinite number of vermin in for every wave. And it can do so for an arbitrarily large number of waves within a single round. Each wave has its first member cast True Seeing on itself and the rest drop an infinite number of Disjunctions on Azrael.

EDIT: Oh, oh, oh...I nearly forgot...I should just have Azrael make a googleplex Ice Assassins of himself (they want to kill him, but since they have to obey him without question he has ensured that they cannot possibly commit any act which would ever cause potential harm to him), each exponentially more powerful than any individual member of H.I.V.E. I can add a contingency (don't know what yet) which alerts them when hes about to be attacked by more than x people of x CL or higher so each can gain infinite actions, port in (not within his anticipate teleportation though), and assist him...there, that wasn't so hard.

Now I has more than H.I.V.E. :D

The HIVE has an infinity of members on the instant of its creation. Azrael does not. Azrael has an arbitrarily large number of members at any given round, because unless I'm missing something, he doesn't gain more actions every iteration from new units than he expended creating them. So, actually, there are more units of the HIVE than there are of Azrael.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 28, 2010, 10:42:28 PM

Craft Contingent Spell only has rules for things that affect you. So no, you can't have one that triggers on Wishporting or on a sphere of annihilation dropped into a Well of Many Worlds, because you aren't your demiplane or every sphere of annihilation or Well of Many Worlds in the multiverse.

: d20 SRD
You can place another spell upon your person so that it comes into effect under some condition you dictate when casting contingency. The contingency spell and the companion spell are cast at the same time. The 10-minute casting time is the minimum total for both castings; if the companion spell has a casting time longer than 10 minutes, use that instead.

The spell to be brought into effect by the contingency must be one that affects your person and be of a spell level no higher than one-third your caster level (rounded down, maximum 6th level).

Nowhere does it say that I couldn't allow it to trigger when someone wishports in...I think you may have misread the part about "must be a spell that affects your person (i.e. a personal spell, which timestop is)." However, I would also like to note that nowhere in my 3.5 players handbook does it say "maximum 6th level." Which means either one of two things, I have a misprinted, earlier version of the 3.5 players handbook, or the SRD is wrong...either way craft contingent spell allows you to have up to 9th level spells.

If your veils are immune to Disjunction, the Hive members are bringing Fine Tower Shields (which they can Wish into existence) because those grant total cover to their user and, by the same reasoning as your spell effects being protected by themselves, the Tower Shields have total cover as well. All non-targeted effects can no longer affect the HIVE. Which would also block his AMF you mention below, so I presume you don't actually want this to work. Number of veils is irrelevant; the HIVE generates an actually infinite number of members in a turn, and each can pull this trick.

I knew someone would mention the ol'tower shield trick one of these days. I'm sure there is a damaging aura (probably sonic) that I can have active on myself and widen widen widen until it would at least match the area of my AMF, in which case the tower shields (since any magical abilities of theirs will be suppressed) should easily be destroyed...also I hope you don't think a tower shield could get through the veils? The AMF yes, but the veils would destroy them immediately, no save.

Any suggestions on that damaging aura...it obviously has to be one that would deal damage as soon as they enter...I'm sure there's something out there.


They get plenty of actions; each member of the swarm is aware of everything every other member is, which means only one member needs to detect Azrael for the others to attack effectively. Remember, since it's fully capable of doing so, the HIVE is Wishporting an infinite number of vermin in for every wave. And it can do so for an arbitrarily large number of waves within a single round. Each wave has its first member cast True Seeing on itself and the rest drop an infinite number of Disjunctions on Azrael.

Yes but can they "share senses?" They still need to be able to target him...awareness isn't the same as 'that creature being able to use anther's senses for the purpose of resolving LoS and LoE.'

Also I think it goes something like this...

1. A member of the swarm enters the 300ft mark, thus Azrael becomes aware of them, initiative is rolled, Azrael wins initiative (an assumption, but im pretty sure his 80ish initiative beats theirs).

2. They have foresight so they all activate their immediate actions thus gaining infinite actions (how do they do this btw...I don't believe anyone explained how they actually gain infinite actions); Azrael cannot stop this.

3. They approach him and make it inside his AMF, however, at that moment all their infinite actions (I assume) will be nullified, including any contingencies they might have.

4. Azrael's contingency activates because someone made it inside his field.

5. Since they no longer have infinite actions, and used up their immediate action for the turn Azrael completes his contingency and casts time stop. Within his time stop he first uses CoP to learn how many actions he will need to generate in order to beat them (lets face it, infinite is hypothetical, they have to stop generating actions at some point, which gives them x number of actions, if Azrael knows how many actions they have generated then he can generate X . X actions). Azrael then proceeds to generate that many actions, comes out of his time stop, and kills them all...all of them...everywhere...in all of existance...so they cannot generate any more on the next turn.

Besides the listed ones two assumptions were made

1. Azrael has an emanation that will destroy their tower shields (I think this is plausable, given the amount of spells out there, there has to be something...)

2. The H.I.V.E. did not, prior to battle, CoP how many actions they would need to generate in order to win the battle. If they did not Azrael does indeed beat H.I.V.E. If they did, it results in a paradox in which the only possible solution is a stalemate...and even so much as stalemating the H.I.V.E. isn't something just any Wizard can do.




The HIVE has an infinity of members on the instant of its creation. Azrael does not. Azrael has an arbitrarily large number of members at any given round, because unless I'm missing something, he doesn't gain more actions every iteration from new units than he expended creating them. So, actually, there are more units of the HIVE than there are of Azrael.

First of all, I thought the H.I.V.E. had like 4500 members or something, with the ability to gain exponentially more with respawning. Second of all Azrael can have them all the instant of his creation if he wanted to...it would be the first thing Azrael does after hes finished fusing all of his believers because he can do it all in another time-stream.

So at that point it just becomes an argument about who existed first as a char...In fact Azrael basically forces H.I.V.E. to have existed before him in order to beat him because, if they do not, his prestidigitation contingency goes off as soon as someone tries to CoP information about him or anything he has created...read the 'inevitable defeat' section in my char notes (which, btw, did exist before any of these conversations began).

So in essence the only real way to beat Azrael is to have CoPed him before he cast his contingency...hell, Azrael could even cast a bunch of CoPs to find out if anyone cast CoP about him prior to him creating the contingency...which basically forces any char that wants to defeat Azrael to attack him before his character is complete...which is a lame way to beat any char...



Azrael is a char that forces you to attack him before he was complete or its probably impossible to beat him...I don't know about you but that sounds pretty powerful to me...I think he needs a pseudonym or something like "The Paradox Lord."


To sum it up, I need help with that aura to destroy the tower shields, and I need an answer to the bloodwind question; having infinite reach might be pretty beneficial :D
: Re: Azrael
: betrayor September 28, 2010, 10:55:43 PM
Completely off-topic but isn't Azrael that character who was Batman for a little while?
Or is he from somewhere else?
: Re: Azrael
: betrayor September 28, 2010, 10:57:53 PM
And to be on-topic ,
How do you defend against divine splendor?
Yes I know it is a deific ability but you said you have a defense against it.....
So what is it?
: Re: Azrael
: Bauglir September 29, 2010, 12:03:42 AM

Craft Contingent Spell only has rules for things that affect you. So no, you can't have one that triggers on Wishporting or on a sphere of annihilation dropped into a Well of Many Worlds, because you aren't your demiplane or every sphere of annihilation or Well of Many Worlds in the multiverse.

: d20 SRD
You can place another spell upon your person so that it comes into effect under some condition you dictate when casting contingency. The contingency spell and the companion spell are cast at the same time. The 10-minute casting time is the minimum total for both castings; if the companion spell has a casting time longer than 10 minutes, use that instead.

The spell to be brought into effect by the contingency must be one that affects your person and be of a spell level no higher than one-third your caster level (rounded down, maximum 6th level).

Nowhere does it say that I couldn't allow it to trigger when someone wishports in...I think you may have misread the part about "must be a spell that affects your person (i.e. a personal spell, which timestop is)." However, I would also like to note that nowhere in my 3.5 players handbook does it say "maximum 6th level." Which means either one of two things, I have a misprinted, earlier version of the 3.5 players handbook, or the SRD is wrong...either way craft contingent spell allows you to have up to 9th level spells.

Ok, I think you're not seeing what I'm referencing in Craft Contingent Spell; it says "  Triggers for contingent spells are usually events that happen to the bearer of the spell, and can include death, contracting disease, exposure to a breath weapon or to energy damage, falling, exposure to poison, exposure to a dangerous environment (trapped by fire, plunged underwater, and so forth), succumbing to sleep or fear effects, gaining negative levels, or being rendered helpless, deafened, or blinded." That's all. There are no rules for things that do not happen to the bearer of the spell. And yes, you have a misprint, because I'm looking at my PHB and it includes the note about maximums; can anyone else back me up on this so it's not just my word against Azrael's?


If your veils are immune to Disjunction, the Hive members are bringing Fine Tower Shields (which they can Wish into existence) because those grant total cover to their user and, by the same reasoning as your spell effects being protected by themselves, the Tower Shields have total cover as well. All non-targeted effects can no longer affect the HIVE. Which would also block his AMF you mention below, so I presume you don't actually want this to work. Number of veils is irrelevant; the HIVE generates an actually infinite number of members in a turn, and each can pull this trick.

I knew someone would mention the ol'tower shield trick one of these days. I'm sure there is a damaging aura (probably sonic) that I can have active on myself and widen widen widen until it would at least match the area of my AMF, in which case the tower shields (since any magical abilities of theirs will be suppressed) should easily be destroyed...also I hope you don't think a tower shield could get through the veils? The AMF yes, but the veils would destroy them immediately, no save.

Any suggestions on that damaging aura...it obviously has to be one that would deal damage as soon as they enter...I'm sure there's something out there.

It doesn't matter if you deal damage with an aura; it doesn't have LoE to the tower shield, and the only exception to total cover with a tower shield is the bit about targeting. Likewise your AMF has no LoE to the tower shield, because it's part of my equipment, so it retains its special qualities (if any; it doesn't need any, and in fact it's more efficient just to Wish thousands into existence at once). Now, you can DEFINITELY argue that this is a fucking retarded interpretation of the rules, and I'd agree with you. It's just that it's the same interpretation that would make your veils immune to disjunction, which is why I brought up the example; I'm trying to get us to agree on a dodgy issue which you mentioned as a possibility (you didn't endorse it wholeheartedly, and I thank you for that, I'm just trying to make the whole issue a definite conclusion). At any rate, the tower shields exist only to let the HIVE members do whatever they want until they start taking their actions, not to get through your veils' disjunction does that, or the specific spells that take down the layers.


They get plenty of actions; each member of the swarm is aware of everything every other member is, which means only one member needs to detect Azrael for the others to attack effectively. Remember, since it's fully capable of doing so, the HIVE is Wishporting an infinite number of vermin in for every wave. And it can do so for an arbitrarily large number of waves within a single round. Each wave has its first member cast True Seeing on itself and the rest drop an infinite number of Disjunctions on Azrael.

Yes but can they "share senses?" They still need to be able to target him...awareness isn't the same as 'that creature being able to use anther's senses for the purpose of resolving LoS and LoE.'

Does it matter? They're aware of where Azrael is, and Disjunction is an area effect so they don't NEED to target him. And LoE is EASILY taken care of by the fact that there are an infinite number of vermin standing right next to the one with senses.
Also I think it goes something like this...

1. A member of the swarm enters the 300ft mark, thus Azrael becomes aware of them, initiative is rolled, Azrael wins initiative (an assumption, but im pretty sure his 80ish initiative beats theirs).

Question: does Mind Blank stop Foresight? If so, Azrael never becomes aware of them because this all happens on the HIVE's surprise round. However, I don't think it does, so ok. I don't really care.

2. They have foresight so they all activate their immediate actions thus gaining infinite actions (how do they do this btw...I don't believe anyone explained how they actually gain infinite actions); Azrael cannot stop this.

3. They approach him and make it inside his AMF, however, at that moment all their infinite actions (I assume) will be nullified, including any contingencies they might have.

Here's where it falls apart. They do not approach. They appear right next to Azrael. That's where they start upon Wishporting in. And they have infinite actions because there are an infinite number of them, which isn't exactly an AMF-negatable effect.

4. Azrael's contingency activates because someone made it inside his field.

5. Since they no longer have infinite actions, and used up their immediate action for the turn Azrael completes his contingency and casts time stop. Within his time stop he first uses CoP to learn how many actions he will need to generate in order to beat them (lets face it, infinite is hypothetical, they have to stop generating actions at some point, which gives them x number of actions, if Azrael knows how many actions they have generated then he can generate X . X actions). Azrael then proceeds to generate that many actions, comes out of his time stop, and kills them all...all of them...everywhere...in all of existance...so they cannot generate any more on the next turn.

No, they don't have to use a finite number of actions. Actually, since they have infinitely many immediate actions and infinitely many spell slots from which to cast Greater Celerity, they just automatically get to go before he gets to do anything, and they obliterate him.

1. Azrael has an emanation that will destroy their tower shields (I think this is plausable, given the amount of spells out there, there has to be something...)

2. The H.I.V.E. did not, prior to battle, CoP how many actions they would need to generate in order to win the battle. If they did not Azrael does indeed beat H.I.V.E. If they did, it results in a paradox in which the only possible solution is a stalemate...and even so much as stalemating the H.I.V.E. isn't something just any Wizard can do.

I agree to the first, because arguing that a LoE-blocking effect protects itself as well is utterly ridiculous. Quite frankly, tower shields were never a serious argument (neither were the veils protecting themselves, I hope). As for the second, it doesn't need to, it just uses infinite actions. Seriously, it can just do that. It has a literally infinite number of vermin after its first round of existence. Each iteration of the HIVE is generated on the same turn the prior iteration was, and has even more actions and spells with which to generate the next iteration than did its progenitor iteration. Because it has more actions with every iteration, it can go through an infinite sequence of iterations within a finite timespan, and so after 1 round it has an infinite number of members.



The HIVE has an infinity of members on the instant of its creation. Azrael does not. Azrael has an arbitrarily large number of members at any given round, because unless I'm missing something, he doesn't gain more actions every iteration from new units than he expended creating them. So, actually, there are more units of the HIVE than there are of Azrael.

First of all, I thought the H.I.V.E. had like 4500 members or something, with the ability to gain exponentially more with respawning. Second of all Azrael can have them all the instant of his creation if he wanted to...it would be the first thing Azrael does after hes finished fusing all of his believers because he can do it all in another time-stream.

Its first iteration has 4500, but all that respawning happens in the same turn as it was created. That very instant. There is a vertical line in the graph of "number of members of the HIVE" vs time.


So at that point it just becomes an argument about who existed first as a char...In fact Azrael basically forces H.I.V.E. to have existed before him in order to beat him because, if they do not, his prestidigitation contingency goes off as soon as someone tries to CoP information about him or anything he has created...read the 'inevitable defeat' section in my char notes (which, btw, did exist before any of these conversations began).

If that's the case, then it's more reasonable to assume the HIVE did exist first, since it can happen 11 levels earlier (same reasoning as Omniscificer vs PunPun before PunPun was level 1). Honestly, any FullCaster20 with all his defenses up can't be killed except by somebody killing him before those defenses went up, because it's trivial to get infinite actions (Example: Celerity yourself into Shapechange. Shapechange lets you change shape as a free action; turn into a Chronotyryn, which has Dual Actions and grants you Sorc spellcasting; cast Sanctum Greater Arcane Fusion, using your Chronotyryn 6th level spell slots with Versatile Spellcaster to get the slots without spending any real ones, and just shove Celerity into both slots. Whenever you run out of Chronotyryn slots, shapechange into a DIFFERENT Chronotyryn. That's just off the top of my head and I'm sure others can come up with better ideas. You don't actually need everything I just outlined; just an infinite supply of spell slots and either Dual Actions or Greater Arcane Fusion will be enough to keep things going for the rest of ever). Once you have infinite actions, you can force a stalemate just by never giving your opponent the opportunity to actually do anything.
: Re: Azrael
: BeholderSlayer September 29, 2010, 12:13:31 AM
The spell contingency is limited to 6th level and lower spells.

The craft contingent spell feat is not.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 29, 2010, 12:38:08 AM
And to be on-topic ,
How do you defend against divine splendor?
Yes I know it is a deific ability but you said you have a defense against it.....
So what is it?

I dunno, its a death effect isn't it? So hes immune...either that or he just never approaches within 200 ft of a deity, it does specify the mortal has to approach, perhaps nothing will happen if the deity approaches me...plus my veils should also block LoE.



Ok, I think you're not seeing what I'm referencing in Craft Contingent Spell; it says "  Triggers for contingent spells are usually events that happen to the bearer of the spell, and can include death, contracting disease, exposure to a breath weapon or to energy damage, falling, exposure to poison, exposure to a dangerous environment (trapped by fire, plunged underwater, and so forth), succumbing to sleep or fear effects, gaining negative levels, or being rendered helpless, deafened, or blinded." That's all. There are no rules for things that do not happen to the bearer of the spell. And yes, you have a misprint, because I'm looking at my PHB and it includes the note about maximums; can anyone else back me up on this so it's not just my word against Azrael's?

What book are you reading? I'm reading the entry in Complete Arcane...did it get reprinted in another source? Or are you reading the earlier source? That's a question we need to answer since it basically determines if I can beat H.I.V.E. or just stalemate them.


It doesn't matter if you deal damage with an aura; it doesn't have LoE to the tower shield, and the only exception to total cover with a tower shield is the bit about targeting. Likewise your AMF has no LoE to the tower shield, because it's part of my equipment, so it retains its special qualities (if any; it doesn't need any, and in fact it's more efficient just to Wish thousands into existence at once). Now, you can DEFINITELY argue that this is a fucking retarded interpretation of the rules, and I'd agree with you. It's just that it's the same interpretation that would make your veils immune to disjunction, which is why I brought up the example; I'm trying to get us to agree on a dodgy issue which you mentioned as a possibility (you didn't endorse it wholeheartedly, and I thank you for that, I'm just trying to make the whole issue a definite conclusion). At any rate, the tower shields exist only to let the HIVE members do whatever they want until they start taking their actions, not to get through your veils' disjunction does that, or the specific spells that take down the layers.

Ummm, what interpretation are you reading...how does an emanation which exists between me and the tower shield not effect the tower shield? I agree (sort of, I mean, I know this is something that has been argued to death; whether or not a tower shield can block an emanation) that the tower shield will block the AMF from affecting you, but it should still affect the tower shield...this is less of a stretch than my veils blocking a MDJ...since it does explicitly state "all effects."


Does it matter? They're aware of where Azrael is, and Disjunction is an area effect so they don't NEED to target him. And LoE is EASILY taken care of by the fact that there are an infinite number of vermin standing right next to the one with senses.

Next to them in the AMF you mean...also, do they all have initiate of mystra...cause they need to all be at least 5th level clerics for that to happen...

Also, MDJ does have an area (40ft I believe), they need to know where to place it in order to get him...and since AMF is invisible they cant calculate where the center of it is...or can they?


I agree to the first, because arguing that a LoE-blocking effect protects itself as well is utterly ridiculous. Quite frankly, tower shields were never a serious argument (neither were the veils protecting themselves, I hope). As for the second, it doesn't need to, it just uses infinite actions. Seriously, it can just do that. It has a literally infinite number of vermin after its first round of existence. Each iteration of the HIVE is generated on the same turn the prior iteration was, and has even more actions and spells with which to generate the next iteration than did its progenitor iteration. Because it has more actions with every iteration, it can go through an infinite sequence of iterations within a finite timespan, and so after 1 round it has an infinite number of members.


As Kell said...we are arguing infinite vs infinite...we can both gain infinite actions...Azrael also has infinite Ice Assassins at the moment of his creation...so...

and btw, as I said before, infinite doesn't exist...it has to stop somewhere, and all Azrael has to do is CoP how many actions he needs to gain in order to win...and if H.I.V.E. did the same thing prior to battle then Azrael's contingency would have gone off...I'm telling you man, its a stalemate based on a paradox.

If that's the case, then it's more reasonable to assume the HIVE did exist first, since it can happen 11 levels earlier (same reasoning as Omniscificer vs PunPun before PunPun was level 1). Honestly, any FullCaster20 with all his defenses up can't be killed except by somebody killing him before those defenses went up, because it's trivial to get infinite actions (Example: Celerity yourself into Shapechange. Shapechange lets you change shape as a free action; turn into a Chronotyryn, which has Dual Actions and grants you Sorc spellcasting; cast Sanctum Greater Arcane Fusion, using your Chronotyryn 6th level spell slots with Versatile Spellcaster to get the slots without spending any real ones, and just shove Celerity into both slots. Whenever you run out of Chronotyryn slots, shapechange into a DIFFERENT Chronotyryn. That's just off the top of my head and I'm sure others can come up with better ideas. You don't actually need everything I just outlined; just an infinite supply of spell slots and either Dual Actions or Greater Arcane Fusion will be enough to keep things going for the rest of ever). Once you have infinite actions, you can force a stalemate just by never giving your opponent the opportunity to actually do anything.

That's awful logic...(wait...was that really the only reason Omni existed before Pun?...that's retarded...any newb to D&D could say that about their char) just because they can do the same thing at a lower level only means that our leveling up would have had to happen simultaneously...Either Azrael or the H.I.V.E. could have existed a millennium before the other.

While I am aware other 20th level casters are able to gain infinite actions and thus kill everyone in the multiverse before someone has a chance to rise up against them -because that's what they would have to do- its not as if their infinite actions can be used their entire life...they all have to be used in one round of real time. Any argument stating 'I gain infinite actions and kill everyone in the multiverse' is stupid...and the thing that sets Azrael apart from them is that he doesn't have to rely on such things, they do (the killing everyone in order to be all powerful, not the infinite actions).


Also, not to bash your chronotryn thing...but you can only take a free action on your turn...not along with an immediate action (since it isn't technically your turn)...sorry, your infinite actions doesn't work :(
: Re: Azrael
: Bozwevial September 29, 2010, 12:43:28 AM
The entry in Complete Arcane is exactly as Bauglir has posted. It's on page 139, right-hand column, first full paragraph. The text of the feat references this entry by saying "See Contingent Spells, page 139, for more information."
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 29, 2010, 12:53:20 AM
Ohhhhh, I never saw that lol...but no matter

It says "usually," it says nothing about it having to be something that happens to the wearer. i.e. its just giving suggestions, re-read it, no where does it say it "MUST" be something that happens to the wearer




YAY! Whew, for a second there I was worried...I guess I do get wishporting defenses after all :D
: Re: Azrael
: betrayor September 29, 2010, 01:05:04 AM
Divine splendor is not a death effect.....

I think that in this case if the god comes so near to Azrael  then he is in trouble.....

Of course you could easily avoid it by using the Ice assansin trick to gain at least divine rank 0.....

: Re: Azrael
: Bauglir September 29, 2010, 02:35:25 AM
Ohhhhh, I never saw that lol...but no matter

It says "usually," it says nothing about it having to be something that happens to the wearer. i.e. its just giving suggestions, re-read it, no where does it say it "MUST" be something that happens to the wearer




YAY! Whew, for a second there I was worried...I guess I do get wishporting defenses after all :D

I DID address that. If you're willing to resort to the sort of stretching optimization you originally claimed Azrael didn't need, I can be content with the knowledge that you had to back down on at least one aspect of his character and leave it at that. That's really all I've been after; an admission that Azrael is not unbeatable given a strictly RAW application of the rules. If you're good with that, then I don't really see a need to continue arguing. We cool, or do I need to type out another wall of text?
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 29, 2010, 03:27:54 AM
Not really...I mean its giving an example...the feat never says explicitly that it must be contingent upon something that will affect you. It says usually...do I need to pull out the dictionary and define usually? Usually clearly means 'not always,' and actually, by definition insinuates that there is another alternative...otherwise it would say something like "always" or "must."

Maybe some other things about Azrael are up to semi-interpretation but I don't think this is one of them...is that seriously all you're after...that's rather...I really don't know what to call it...you wont be content unless I personally back down on something?...this isn't even about my character anymore, this is about me...this needs to stop...I'm trying to make it about the character and so far both pieces of advice I (humbly) asked for haven't even been considered...and if he isn't unbeatable by RAW then help me make him unbeatable...that's what Kell has been doing this whole time, and hes the only one. Its almost as if you cannot stand knowing that I alone was able to make an unbeatable character (not saying that I necessarily did) and that pisses you off because why?...you weren't able to?...a lowly 392 post guy got there where 1000+ people like yourself failed?...honestly, I'm just guessing here. However, I think by now (and especially after the statement you just made) you have made it obvious you've got a personal vendetta against me.

Maybe the char isn't quite all powerful now, but if he isn't I'm fairly certain he can be with a few good suggestions (without adding divine ranks), and that's all I was originally after. I worked a long fucking time on this character and I would hate to see him lost to obscurity. I want him to be up there with the rest of the CO characters, and I think hes both capable and worthy of that.



I know you may think I was being arrogant but I was only responding the the arrogance of fallen angle's original comment. As I said before I was quite humble up until he did 3 things.

1. Had the nerve to think he could beat my char with a measly artificer lich that relied upon magic items for his defense.

2. Had the audacity to play out the battle himself, assuming what actions Azrael would take, without even asking me.

3. Had the arrogance to then insinuate that his artificer could beat Pun-Pun...

Now I was aware of Fallen Angle before this comment. I had read the little build he calls Shifty and I thought 2 things...wow, this guy is ridiculously weak compared to Azrael, and not only does he use his shape changing abilities inefficiently he wasn't even able to do a simple thing like get full immunity to damage with one of the forms (all it takes is 3 spells and you don't even need to be a MT; shapechange into troll, energy immunity (fire, acid), veil of undeath...and since veil and shapechange are 10 min/level and energy immunity is 24 hours any wiz/sorc with a few greater extend rods can have them up all day). The second thing that bothered me was he made the claim that the master transmogrifist was one of the best classes in the game and shame on us BGers for overlooking it...yet for some reason, unlike with Azrael, no one called him out on his hubris...I wonder why that is...

In any case, he pissed me off, and I wasn't going to let a little brat like that think he could even come close to besting this character.

Anyway, that's when all of this started...if he had not made such a comment perhaps we would have made more constructive progress with Azrael by now.
: Re: Azrael
: fallen-angle September 29, 2010, 06:33:03 AM
Wow. This is still going huh? Seems the OP is really angry at me for some reason. I will perpetuate this, it'll be great.

Now I was aware of Fallen Angle before this comment. I had read the little build he calls Shifty and I thought 2 things...wow, this guy is ridiculously weak compared to Azrael, and not only does he use his shape changing abilities inefficiently he wasn't even able to do a simple thing like get full immunity to damage with one of the forms (all it takes is 3 spells and you don't even need to be a MT; shapechange into troll, energy immunity (fire, acid), veil of undeath...and since veil and shapechange are 10 min/level and energy immunity is 24 hours any wiz/sorc with a few greater extend rods can have them up all day). The second thing that bothered me was he made the claim that the master transmogrifist was one of the best classes in the game and shame on us BGers for overlooking it...yet for some reason, unlike with Azrael, no one called him out on his hubris...I wonder why that is...

Wow. Really? This is where you are going? Attacking a completely different post? Okay. Thanks for the publicity I guess.

Lets start. You are right, Azrael can beat Shifty. What a shock. It is almost as though Shifty was made to be at a totally different power level. Or perhaps playable in an actual game. You are right about not getting full immunity, how astute, it is clear people should not play other classes or bring up different possible tactics.

On the note of MTrans being a great class. It is. Mostly as a result of its pinnacle ability to fuse EX abilities from different creatures. Is it a beholdermage? no. Ur Priest. Still no. But it is an awesome power and for focused shapeshifters it is really neat and has obvious potential to break the system. I know, you can gain that power other ways, fusion, and manipulate form, etc. Very good of you to know that. But most DMs aren't going to allow such tricks, they are too strong.

Indeed. As need as Azrael might be. Most DMs wont allow an unbeatable kill all character into their game. The Min-Max forums are home to many players who want to see playable builds. Perhaps you should repost it in the "You break it, you buy it" subforum. The one explicitly intended for characters that cannot be played.

Now on the note of my Hubris. I also included an entire bit where I point out that Druids are equal or better shifters 90% of the time, and that the Planar Shepard is on par or better 80% of the time. I also included in each posts requests for comments and criticism. Requests! Imagine that. Asking people to help you make something better. If you want to attack my build please do so, but do it in the thread ABOUT my build. I'd love to discuss the merits of the class and get 11 pages of debate and stay on the front page for a month. That'd be great! Just don't coop't your own post, that is silly.

But what does this have to do with Azrael? I mean, seriously? Do you think these people care that you appear not to like me? I doubt they care. Hell, I don't even care. I mean, you've made it abundantly obvious that you can get very angry, and that you can tell people that they die because you have magic. Outside that? Not much.
_________________________________________________

Now for some genuine advice on your post. How about redoing the first post. Modify it so that everything is better laid out. Currently it is kind of a wall of text, the sort that a journalist would weep to see. Add explanations in spoiler tags, a better structure for the progression. It is very very clear from the last 10 pages that people had some trouble finding where you listed immunities or contingencies, etc. etc.

Now maybe instead of telling people that they didn't read hard enough you could actually do something about it! Fancy that.
: Re: Azrael
: The_Mad_Linguist September 29, 2010, 06:36:51 AM
Time for me to whip out stupid RAW.

All your abilities, items, et cetera, are owned by you.  Thus, they are all your possessions.

I am have a Dracanite Helm, and am thus protected from all forms of possession.  Thus, I can ignore everything you own or are carrying around.  So I just waltz on through your AMFs, keep acting through your celerities, laugh off your contingent effects, and merrily make my way wherever I want to go.  Your arcane power, your facilities of reason - anything you possess I am protected against.

If you had vow of poverty, you might have stood a chance, but your actions are far from exalted.
: Re: Azrael
: fallen-angle September 29, 2010, 06:40:33 AM
Time for me to whip out stupid RAW.

All your abilities, items, et cetera, are owned by you.  Thus, they are all your possessions.

I am have a Dracanite Helm, and am thus protected from all forms of possession.  Thus, I can ignore everything you own or are carrying around.  So I just waltz on through your AMFs, keep acting through your celerities, laugh off your contingent effects, and merrily make my way wherever I want to go.  Your arcane power, your facilities of reason - anything you possess I am protected against.

If you had vow of poverty, you might have stood a chance, but your actions are far from exalted.

Trolling. Wonderful.

If this is what this is coming too would an admin please close this? There are posts more deserving of the top spot on the front page than this.
: Re: Azrael
: KellKheraptis September 29, 2010, 08:32:45 AM
Time for me to whip out stupid RAW.

All your abilities, items, et cetera, are owned by you.  Thus, they are all your possessions.

I am have a Dracanite Helm, and am thus protected from all forms of possession.  Thus, I can ignore everything you own or are carrying around.  So I just waltz on through your AMFs, keep acting through your celerities, laugh off your contingent effects, and merrily make my way wherever I want to go.  Your arcane power, your facilities of reason - anything you possess I am protected against.

If you had vow of poverty, you might have stood a chance, but your actions are far from exalted.

Trolling. Wonderful.

If this is what this is coming too would an admin please close this? There are posts more deserving of the top spot on the front page than this.

No, merely pointing out stupidly worded, yet utterly legal rules.  (S)he is the mad linguist after all...
: Re: Azrael
: Agita September 29, 2010, 08:55:58 AM
In that vein... remember the argument about Protection from Evil stopping existence?
: Re: Azrael
: Bozwevial September 29, 2010, 12:04:32 PM
The entire point of this thread is to try and defeat Azrael, if only so you can further refine him. If you had started this thread and said, "Hey guys, here's a build I've been working on, what do you guys think I can do to make it better?" then no one would have started an argument. But you didn't. Instead:

1. Had the nerve to think he could beat my char with a measly artificer lich that relied upon magic items for his defense.

2. Had the audacity to play out the battle himself, assuming what actions Azrael would take, without even asking me.

3. Had the arrogance to then insinuate that his artificer could beat Pun-Pun...

In any case, he pissed me off, and I wasn't going to let a little brat like that think he could even come close to besting this character.

Is it any wonder, with that kind of attitude, that this thread has gone downhill like this?
: Re: Azrael
: bearsarebrown September 29, 2010, 01:46:38 PM
In that vein... remember the argument about Protection from Evil stopping existence?
explain
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 29, 2010, 09:45:48 PM
The entire point of this thread is to try and defeat Azrael, if only so you can further refine him. If you had started this thread and said, "Hey guys, here's a build I've been working on, what do you guys think I can do to make it better?" then no one would have started an argument. But you didn't. Instead:

1. Had the nerve to think he could beat my char with a measly artificer lich that relied upon magic items for his defense.

2. Had the audacity to play out the battle himself, assuming what actions Azrael would take, without even asking me.

3. Had the arrogance to then insinuate that his artificer could beat Pun-Pun...

In any case, he pissed me off, and I wasn't going to let a little brat like that think he could even come close to besting this character.

Is it any wonder, with that kind of attitude, that this thread has gone downhill like this?

Yes, everything should be blamed on me...I perpetuated it, I agree, but I also tried to stop it...which didn't work. Just remember, it takes two to argue :)

The original request was to see him, so I posted him. There was no other intention...now I assumed that people would both attack him and suggest ways to improve him, so far (with the exception of Kell, which was mostly in defense to the attacks) only the former has occurred...excuse me for assuming there was benevolence as well as malevolence on these boards (and don't give me the quote about assuming). As a natural response to your attacks I was forced to defend him. As I have said many times any nastiness out of me only came as a response to people's comments...go ahead, see for yourself.

Now for some genuine advice on your post. How about redoing the first post. Modify it so that everything is better laid out. Currently it is kind of a wall of text, the sort that a journalist would weep to see. Add explanations in spoiler tags, a better structure for the progression. It is very very clear from the last 10 pages that people had some trouble finding where you listed immunities or contingencies, etc. etc.

Now maybe instead of telling people that they didn't read hard enough you could actually do something about it! Fancy that.


The original word document is beautifully organized (at least to me it is). However when transferring it over to the boards it lost its formatting. I do not profess to be an expert at utilizing this forum's tools. If there is a way to keep the original formatting or just upload the word file I will gladly do so...still, its not really an excuse (its like the senators complaining that the health care bill was too long to read; THATS YOUR FUCKING JOB BITCHES!! Do I complain that I have to read 400 pages a week in grad school, NO! Seriously, hearing them complain about such an issue has me thoroughly convinced our government does nothing but sit on their lazy asses 23 hours out of the day...but I digress), Kell seemed to understand it just fine; perhaps because (as I suspect) he actually read the whole thing. You've already proven that (at least back then) you had not read the character because if you did you would have seen that he didn't even have and MDJs prepared, and thus, wouldn't have attempted to use them in your argument. I wonder how many others just glanced over it.

But, if you'll help me, Ill try and re-post him...but only after a few things are clarified.

1. Does everyone agree I'm right about the craft contingent spell...I mean, I think I've proved it beyond a shadow of a reasonable doubt, and if that's good enough for certain states to sentence a human being to death (not saying that's my belief), its fine with me.

2. Please comment about the bloodwind issue...I would very much like to know if I can have unlimited reach...and perhaps combine with a few spells that may grant me things like unlimited AoO for a round (if there is such a spell), etc.

3. Any ideas for the spell that would emanate from him and destroy the tower shields...its apparently important.
: Re: Azrael
: bearsarebrown September 29, 2010, 09:59:21 PM
Bloodwind turns your Natural Attacks into ranged attacks. It doesn't increase Reach, it grants a Range.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 29, 2010, 10:09:42 PM
I may have misread it, or read another version...there's like five.

In any case, could it give me unlimited range if you apply empower x number of times to it?
: Re: Azrael
: bearsarebrown September 29, 2010, 10:13:16 PM
No. Because you don't have unlimited actions. You can make it arbitrarily large though. You can do this with pretty much any spell that grants a blasting ability. Like Stormrage.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 29, 2010, 10:21:39 PM
Firstly, I do have unlimited actions.

Secondly, bloodwind is permanent on me, I could apply an empower one day (actually I can only do it about 13 times a day with MME), and do more a week later on the same one.
: Re: Azrael
: bearsarebrown September 29, 2010, 10:26:02 PM
Sorry for my ignorance but I read the first post and don't see how you have unlimited actions.

And the thought that 13 empowers a week will eventually grant infinite range gives the idea that you don't understand the concept of infinity.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 29, 2010, 11:12:52 PM
Synchronicity Nova...you know, that thing I invented (at least I'm pretty sure I did, since no one ever talked about it until I posted it on the boards, which, afterward, there were a storm of builds utilizing it and it was the talk of the town...which was then manipulated into the dominant ideal novaing).

13 a day, my plane has accelerated time. Or one could argue that a "day" can pass within timestop (if you have it active that long) and thus you would gain your uses back...though I admit that may be stretching it.
: Re: Azrael
: Bozwevial September 29, 2010, 11:25:01 PM
No, Synchronicity abuse has been around for a long time. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19570446/Synchronicity._Whats_the_deal) Please stop trying to take credit for what other people have done.

Edit: And as for your attitude? It started around reply 25. So no, it wasn't in response to someone else being rude.
: Re: Azrael
: betrayor September 29, 2010, 11:28:45 PM
A question How are you making sure that the Thralls and the followers you have are exactly of the level and class you want?
Isn't this metagaming?
Pardon me if this is a special ability of your build.....
: Re: Azrael
: bearsarebrown September 29, 2010, 11:36:40 PM
If you can only do it 13 times a day then it will never be infinite.  If you can do it 13 times a second it will never be infinite.  If you can do it a million times a millisecond it will never be infinite.

Distinctions like this are what makes builds like the Omnificier or HIVE so strong.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 30, 2010, 01:44:01 AM
No, Synchronicity abuse has been around for a long time. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19570446/Synchronicity._Whats_the_deal) Please stop trying to take credit for what other people have done.

Edit: And as for your attitude? It started around reply 25. So no, it wasn't in response to someone else being rude.

Synchronicity Affinity field abuse has been around, Pun-Pun did it I know. However, as far as I know no one did it with linked power before me.

Maybe thats your impression of "having an attitude" its not mine...subjectivity, its a wonderful thing.

If you can only do it 13 times a day then it will never be infinite.  If you can do it 13 times a second it will never be infinite.  If you can do it a million times a millisecond it will never be infinite.

Distinctions like this are what makes builds like the Omnificier or HIVE so strong.

I don't think you understood my argument about the time stop, unless of course your basically telling me it wouldn't work. Also, I really only need enough range to extend around the entire planet...I'm sure with an accelerated time plane that's easy.
: Re: Azrael
: Bozwevial September 30, 2010, 02:00:05 AM
Linked Power crops up in the third post. Second, if you don't count the OP. You're complaining that no one except Kell read your build when you had to be told where the actual rules text for Craft Contingent Spell was and didn't read more than a line or two into the link I provided?

As for subjectivity, there are a good deal more people in this thread who believe you are being unnecessarily hostile than those who don't. This isn't an isolated event with a single poster, several people have pointed out that you're behaving in an arrogant fashion. You can hardly claim it was in response to someone else, either, since by your own admission the extent of one person's "hubris" was daring to think he could beat you with an artificer. That doesn't sound like an attack to me at all. If you need something on the level of the artificer to bring a build down, it's clearly pretty potent. No one's denying the fact that Azrael is a tough cookie (he is), we're just pointing out that a) he doesn't bring anything new to the table, he just combines old tricks into a build, and b) you aren't presenting him as someone who wants to get a community opinion on his build, you're presenting him as someone who wants praise and will attack anyone who doesn't give it. Insulting other members, criticizing their optimization skills, and then taking credit for what others have done is not the way to go about gaining acclaim for your work.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 30, 2010, 04:08:31 AM
Linked Power crops up in the third post. Second, if you don't count the OP. You're complaining that no one except Kell read your build when you had to be told where the actual rules text for Craft Contingent Spell was and didn't read more than a line or two into the link I provided?

As for subjectivity, there are a good deal more people in this thread who believe you are being unnecessarily hostile than those who don't. This isn't an isolated event with a single poster, several people have pointed out that you're behaving in an arrogant fashion. You can hardly claim it was in response to someone else, either, since by your own admission the extent of one person's "hubris" was daring to think he could beat you with an artificer. That doesn't sound like an attack to me at all. If you need something on the level of the artificer to bring a build down, it's clearly pretty potent. No one's denying the fact that Azrael is a tough cookie (he is), we're just pointing out that a) he doesn't bring anything new to the table, he just combines old tricks into a build, and b) you aren't presenting him as someone who wants to get a community opinion on his build, you're presenting him as someone who wants praise and will attack anyone who doesn't give it. Insulting other members, criticizing their optimization skills, and then taking credit for what others have done is not the way to go about gaining acclaim for your work.

I wasn't going to go through an entire fucking thread just to see if every synchronicity idea popped up...yeah it popped up on the third post but I wasn't going to go through all that "potential" trouble...you'll also notice that I only claimed that I "thought" I might have invented it...didn't claim I did.

As for the craft contingent spell...oops, my bad, I have read the feat several times before, I was just mistaken...my memory isn't perfect...fucking sue me (and don't try and say something like "well why are you exempt from your mistakes yet you come down hard on others when they make the same ones?" It wasn't the same mistake, only similar. I simply didn't remember something was there, what fallen angle did is completely fabricate something that wasn't there i.e. the Azrael having MDJ prepared when he clearly didn't).

Ohhh, ok then...so you're saying that just because a lot of people see something the same way it makes it more true...well Jesus (no future pun intended) if that's the case then I guess a huge population of the world must be right about their whole organized religion thing...you know, because so many people believe it, its totally less subjective, and thus makes it true...guess I better change my evil ways or this Anthropomorphic God of theirs is going to smite me.

Now onto the bolded statement...THANK YOU FOR FINALLY SAYING EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING ABOUT AZRAEL THIS WHOLE FUCKING TIME!! If the only builds you guys can bring in to combat Azrael are two of the most powerful builds in CO history than DAMN he must be powerful! I know, I know, you never said he wasn't...However, you did say he wasn't worthy of being considered one of the best CO builds. I think you just proved yourself wrong...thanks a bunch :D

Oh, and P.S. I can easily defeat his artificer with my 20th level straight sorcerer (which is actually a character you could play in a real game...imagine that) I didn't need Azrael, that was just the challenge.



Onto the last bit...



Lets just see how completely moot and pointless your argument is…

First of all, I only took 2 ideas from other people; and they were added after the character was finished. Those two ideas were the CoP use, and the respawn contingency...and guess what? I gave proper credit to both of them (well, at least Phaedrus, since I didn't know who created the respawn thingy) because that's what you do in Academia, and I have grown accustom to such devices.

Secondly, how about you define original for me? Is it original if you have an idea that you came up on your own without being influenced by any other source? If not then I've got sad news for you HARDLY ANYTHING IS ORIGINAL! Sure some other people may have thought of the idea, but if you're worried about having an "original" idea that no one has ever thought of you automatically FAIL.

As that saying goes 'if you have a thought/idea, chances are six other people have had, or are having that idea at the exact same moment as you.' Here's an example: (this is directed more at males so females probably cant sympathize) have you ever just gotten totally grossed out when you get into a public restroom and there's just piss all over the toilet seat because some lazy bastard didn't care to lift it up? Me too...so one day I got to thinking, what if you apply the same (really the reverse) mechanics they use in those flip calculators (you know, the ones everyone just seem to love for no real good reason) to toilet seats? Basically, you would have easy to design, cheap, self-lifting toilet seats (which would require minimal pressure to keep down) that you could easily install in public bathrooms everywhere and save your customers from being totally grossed out by how disgusting the rest of humanity is (at least somewhat anyway). So what did I do, I looked online to see if anyone had thought of such a thing...and wouldn't cha' know it, there were several pattons, not just on my idea, but plenty of other variations...

Now, does that make it any less of an original idea...NO! Its just life...

Do you think Einstein invented physics, or Mozart music? No, they just took a bunch of other people's ideas, theories, etc and combined them into their own unique thing...which, in case you don't live in the real world, IS HOW ALMOST EVERYTHING IS CREATED! Where do you think the word inspiration came from, hmmm?

Just like I was inspired by Kell's idea about widening a Maw of Chaos to Widen his AMF so that no one could perceive Azrael unless they were inside the field, thus basically forcing them to waste an action buffing (yeah, maybe a character like the H.I.V.E. wouldn't have to, but almost every other character would...see what I did there, I took something someone else thought of, changed it a bit, and made it my own unique defense...which is something that (as far as I know) no one has EVER thought of doing...for christ sake, it basically makes him completely unapproachable by anything save for billions of characters coming at me at once...another reason that, if it came down to an actual fight (not them hiding in some extradimensional space sending out Astral Projections), I would beat pretty much all those 20th level wizards out there that you say are on par with Azrael...hell, why don't we take out the TO from all characters including Azrael...Azrael wins...since there are no CoP, no infinte actions, etc...hes pretty much invincible, and since the entire character H.I.V.E. relies on TO, he no longer exists...you see, that's the REAL power of Azrael, he doesn't need TO to be ultra powerful, most of these other characters do...and I think that's worth mentioning...but I digress.


Now, if you want to make an issue that using things like genesis is a rip off then I guess any build that uses any common spell is ripping off of 10,000 other builds...what a ridiculous argument...Its like telling the wizard that uses magic missile that hes not being original because 100000000000000000000000000000000 wizards before him use(d) the spell.


In conclusion, your argument is pointless. Sure, there's no way I can prove to you that it was an original idea and not ripped off someone else, but I know, and that's enough for me. Because to me, you're all just faceless internet folks that have no bearing on my real life so I couldn't give a shit about what you think about me personally. The truth is, if you ever met me in person you would probably think I'm one of the nicest people you have ever met, I'm extremely easy to get along with...whatever it is that I exude in this internet form of mine is obviously a butchery of my real personality.

Perhaps it is the way I'm putting myself out there, or perhaps its the way you are perceiving it...remember, its the internet folks, any information that you don't know about a person is automatically filled in by your own prejudices, biases, and thoughts...ever had that experience when you've been talking to someone online for a long time and you finally meet them in person and they are NOTHING like you expected...yeah, same thing...




And Azrael does bring something new to the table...why do you think I posted him in the first place. You're forgetting the original context (not that you were necessarily involved and could have remembered) in which he was brought up. Someone mentioned on the 'post your sig char' board after I posted a brief description of Azrael that they had never seen a 'fusion' char before, and would love to see the possibilities of min-maxing fusion. That's whats original about Azrael...the fact that hes the first char to really optimize (without becoming a God...though I guess now I should post that version as well) the fusion power (to my knowledge). H.I.V.E. has its niche as being many from one, Azrael is the opposite, one from many.

That, and the whole not having to rely on TO to be super powerful...I think that was a good point :D Honestly, the character was basically completed before I added all that CoP and other shit in there...I just figured that since he was capable of it, and everyone else was doing it, I should as well...hell, it will only make him more powerful and I figured I would get called out on NOT using it, if I didn't...Guess this is just another case of 'damned if you do, damned if you don't'

: Re: Azrael
: fallen-angle September 30, 2010, 06:30:23 AM
Gonna have to dissect this tirade piece by piece.

I wasn't going to go through an entire fucking thread just to see if every synchronicity idea popped up...yeah it popped up on the third post but I wasn't going to go through all that "potential" trouble...you'll also notice that I only claimed that I "thought" I might have invented it...didn't claim I did.

So, basically you didn't want to do thorough research into a topic and therefore claimed that you probably are the originator. While admittedly nothing stops you from doing this on a forum it does bring the originality of the whole build and the credibility of your statements into question. Essentially you either end up being ignorant or a liar.

This could have been phrased "I haven't seen much use of syncronicity on the boards." That would not claim total originality for the idea. But no, you claimed to have "invented" it. Invented, meaning that you personally came up with the idea before anyone else. Which brings us to your next statement...  

As for the craft contingent spell...oops, my bad, I have read the feat several times before, I was just mistaken...my memory isn't perfect...fucking sue me (and don't try and say something like "well why are you exempt from your mistakes yet you come down hard on others when they make the same ones?" It wasn't the same mistake, only similar. I simply didn't remember something was there, what fallen angle did is completely fabricate something that wasn't there i.e. the Azrael having MDJ prepared when he clearly didn't).

You admit to arguing out of ignorance. That is generally something you apologize for, you know, when you are wrong. As you admit to having been. Instead you appear to have attacked everyone for, correctly, accusing you of being incorrect.

Ohhh, ok then...so you're saying that just because a lot of people see something the same way it makes it more true...well Jesus (no future pun intended) if that's the case then I guess a huge population of the world must be right about their whole organized religion thing...you know, because so many people believe it, its totally less subjective, and thus makes it true...guess I better change my evil ways or this Anthropomorphic God of theirs is going to smite me.

I am not entirely sure where this comes from. In the case of community based, subjective games such as D&D it is generally the case that when a large group concurs on something it is considered the more appropriate interpretation. Indeed, given that the whole game is imaginary I could simply disagree that your build works that way, based on my own interpretation Fusion would not be stackable and Thrallherds couldn't dominate Thrallherds. So if we want to argue that every opinion is perfectly valid, it will probably get pretty dicey.

Now onto the bolded statement...THANK YOU FOR FINALLY SAYING EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING ABOUT AZRAEL THIS WHOLE FUCKING TIME!! If the only builds you guys can bring in to combat Azrael are two of the most powerful builds in CO history than DAMN he must be powerful! I know, I know, you never said he wasn't...However, you did say he wasn't worthy of being considered one of the best CO builds. I think you just proved yourself wrong...thanks a bunch :D

What he meant when he said that he wasn't worthy of being considered one of the best CO builds is for two reasons. First is that he doesn't really highlight anything new. That isn't to say he doesn't have something new, but it isn't highlighted. Pun Pun was all about how broken the Manipulate Form power was. Omnificer showed off a neat low level trick for massive skills. H.I.V.E. was and is the strongest application of the hivemind rules. Each build wasn't simply good, but was presented in a manner that showcased its core strength.

What does Azrael showcase. The Twice Betrayer of Shar's near invunerability in an antimagic field? The well known strength of Genisis? That fusion has highly ambiguous rules? Infinite actions though power point abuse? How about the Cheater of Mystra's wishing powers? I'll agree that I, personally, hadn't heard of syncronicity prior to this, but I also didn't know about it until the 11th page of this thread. If that is his shtick, sell it.

People are not obliged to read this, they aren't obligated to figure it out. Advertisers fall into this pitfall all the time. If you want people to like what you made you have to sell it too them. Hell Azrael has been praised by just about everyone as powerful, yet people continue not to like it because he was pitched in such an aggressive manner.

Oh, and P.S. I can easily defeat his artificer with my 20th level straight sorcerer (which is actually a character you could play in a real game...imagine that) I didn't need Azrael, that was just the challenge.

That is nice dear.

Onto the last bit...

Lets just see how completely moot and pointless your argument is…

First of all, I only took 2 ideas from other people; and they were added after the character was finished. Those two ideas were the CoP use, and the respawn contingency...and guess what? I gave proper credit to both of them (well, at least Phaedrus, since I didn't know who created the respawn thingy) because that's what you do in Academia, and I have grown accustom to such devices.

Academia. I am afraid standard for writing in "academia" are vastly higher than what you have presented. In a proper academic article you would be help accountable for every idea presented, not simply the ones you cite. In this case I would have expected an elaborate bibliography. The assorted CO boards would need metion, as would some of the key builds that this borrows from. Indeed even if (in the very very unlikely scenario) you did actually dig all this out of the books by yourself you would STILL have to cite the builds who did it before you.

That is how academic work goes. Nothing is original except for the work you can PROVE you did. You can't prove you EVERYTHING yourself (and by everything I mean figure out each of these tricks with no outside stimuli or help. NONE) therefore you should have started with a blanket thanks to the CO boards for all the work they've put in that you didn't have to do.

In its current state it would barely weasel by with a D+, based solely on the fact that you clearly did put in a bunch of time. But that is if it was being evaluated by an academic board. It isn't, so none of the above has any value.

Secondly, how about you define original for me? Is it original if you have an idea that you came up on your own without being influenced by any other source? If not then I've got sad news for you HARDLY ANYTHING IS ORIGINAL! Sure some other people may have thought of the idea, but if you're worried about having an "original" idea that no one has ever thought of you automatically FAIL.

As that saying goes 'if you have a thought/idea, chances are six other people have had, or are having that idea at the exact same moment as you.' Here's an example: (this is directed more at males so females probably cant sympathize) have you ever just gotten totally grossed out when you get into a public restroom and there's just piss all over the toilet seat because some lazy bastard didn't care to lift it up? Me too...so one day I got to thinking, what if you apply the same (really the reverse) mechanics they use in those flip calculators (you know, the ones everyone just seem to love for no real good reason) to toilet seats? Basically, you would have easy to design, cheap, self-lifting toilet seats (which would require minimal pressure to keep down) that you could easily install in public bathrooms everywhere and save your customers from being totally grossed out by how disgusting the rest of humanity is (at least somewhat anyway). So what did I do, I looked online to see if anyone had thought of such a thing...and wouldn't cha' know it, there were several pattons, not just on my idea, but plenty of other variations...

Now, does that make it any less of an original idea...NO! Its just life...

You are right. There is nothing original anymore. Especially not in D&D, where all classes and character were someone else's idea to begin with. I encourage you to look to the boards and attempt to find other authors who claim their works to be original. It isn't common. It is especially uncommon in builds that receive any respect.

The following quote will lead into my next point:

Do you think Einstein invented physics, or Mozart music? No, they just took a bunch of other people's ideas, theories, etc and combined them into their own unique thing...which, in case you don't live in the real world, IS HOW ALMOST EVERYTHING IS CREATED! Where do you think the word inspiration came from, hmmm?

Einstein didn't create physics, Mozart didn't create music. Neither claimed to have done so. What they did was do it better. They each took about their chosen profession in a manner that was rare and brilliant.

Which brings me back to "selling" the post. This could have been a very well received character if he had been presented in a manner that was pleasing to the eye, easy to read, and well explained. Links to where the assorted tricks came from. Or in the case that you believe they were totally original, lengthy explanations of how they worked.

I will repeat. We are NOT obligated to read your post. You have to make people want to read it. To do that you make it easy to read. You yourself admit that the formatting was screwed up, but even with the most excellent formatting it is still a long read, with very many tricks taken for granted. If everyone aside from Kell had a hard time understanding it, there are two possibilities.
1) Everyone is an idiot except for yourself and Kell.
2) The post was confusing and took more work to understand than most people wanted to put in.
Which of these i more likely?

Just like I was inspired by Kell's idea about widening a Maw of Chaos to Widen his AMF so that no one could perceive Azrael unless they were inside the field, thus basically forcing them to waste an action buffing (yeah, maybe a character like the H.I.V.E. wouldn't have to, but almost every other character would...see what I did there, I took something someone else thought of, changed it a bit, and made it my own unique defense...which is something that (as far as I know) no one has EVER thought of doing...for christ sake, it basically makes him completely unapproachable by anything save for billions of characters coming at me at once...another reason that, if it came down to an actual fight (not them hiding in some extradimensional space sending out Astral Projections), I would beat pretty much all those 20th level wizards out there that you say are on par with Azrael...hell, why don't we take out the TO from all characters including Azrael...Azrael wins...since there are no CoP, no infinte actions, etc...hes pretty much invincible, and since the entire character H.I.V.E. relies on TO, he no longer exists...you see, that's the REAL power of Azrael, he doesn't need TO to be ultra powerful, most of these other characters do...and I think that's worth mentioning...but I digress.

YOU DID IT AGAIN! You just claimed something else was your own totally original idea after just pointing out that all ideas come together from a communal effort. I know you added (as far as I know) but your own ignorance is not a defense for being wrong. This is especially awful to see from someone who went on an antireligious tirade just a few paragraphs before.

On the Theoretical Optimization point: Was this the selling strength of the character? Why was it not highlighted. Hell that is a ridiculously board claim to make in the first place. I would like to see evidence of that claim. (FYI, before you tell me to go look it up, the burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim. Otherwise I could state "There are puppies that could beat Azrael" and expect YOU to prove it to ME.)

Now, if you want to make an issue that using things like genesis is a rip off then I guess any build that uses any common spell is ripping off of 10,000 other builds...what a ridiculous argument...Its like telling the wizard that uses magic missile that hes not being original because 100000000000000000000000000000000 wizards before him use(d) the spell.

He isn't being original. He isn't claiming to be.

In conclusion, your argument is pointless. Sure, there's no way I can prove to you that it was an original idea and not ripped off someone else, but I know, and that's enough for me. Because to me, you're all just faceless internet folks that have no bearing on my real life so I couldn't give a shit about what you think about me personally. The truth is, if you ever met me in person you would probably think I'm one of the nicest people you have ever met, I'm extremely easy to get along with...whatever it is that I exude in this internet form of mine is obviously a butchery of my real personality.

Perhaps it is the way I'm putting myself out there, or perhaps its the way you are perceiving it...remember, its the internet folks, any information that you don't know about a person is automatically filled in by your own prejudices, biases, and thoughts...ever had that experience when you've been talking to someone online for a long time and you finally meet them in person and they are NOTHING like you expected...yeah, same thing...

If it was good enough for you you would have stopped. People who genuinely don't care about other peoples opinions don't argue about them.

The person you are online and the person you are in real life are one in the same. Someone else isn't making you type these things, someone else isn't insulting people online. It is you. You are doing it. Even if you are the nicest guy in person that doesn't make a lick of difference in how you acted here. The fact that you DID bring it up suggests that you are feeling personally assaulted.

Let me remind you, most of us don't care that much. So rest at ease, no one cares who you are or what you are like in real life. (Unless they do, perhaps I am making an excessively blanket statement)

And Azrael does bring something new to the table...why do you think I posted him in the first place. You're forgetting the original context (not that you were necessarily involved and could have remembered) in which he was brought up. Someone mentioned on the 'post your sig char' board after I posted a brief description of Azrael that they had never seen a 'fusion' char before, and would love to see the possibilities of min-maxing fusion. That's whats original about Azrael...the fact that hes the first char to really optimize (without becoming a God...though I guess now I should post that version as well) the fusion power (to my knowledge). H.I.V.E. has its niche as being many from one, Azrael is the opposite, one from many.

That, and the whole not having to rely on TO to be super powerful...I think that was a good point :D Honestly, the character was basically completed before I added all that CoP and other shit in there...I just figured that since he was capable of it, and everyone else was doing it, I should as well...hell, it will only make him more powerful and I figured I would get called out on NOT using it, if I didn't...Guess this is just another case of 'damned if you do, damned if you don't'

I won't repeat that bit about failing to sell the idea to us, I've said it twice now in this one post.

In conclusion. Azrael is great. No one is arguing he is not. However he has been presented in such a way as to make him hostile, confusing, and made to appear utterly unoriginal. You, Azrael, the OP. Became personally invested in the argument and began to take personal offense to anything that challenged your creation. As a result you launched personal attacks on the people who commented, incurring further personal attacks in response. You even went so far as to being in a completely different post that had nothing to do with this one. Just to attack me, personally.

The final outcome of all this is that several people here have developed a rather keen image of how you act (this isn't really an inherent prejudice, there has been ample communication). Some found it to be repulsive and had their own guttural response to set you straight.

The best POSSIBLE response for you now would be: "This conversation has degraded to immature name calling. Regardless of who started it, I will end it." Then stop making long personal responses to anyone. For any reason. Ideally you could go rework the original post, which several people have said was aggressive and confusing. On the other hand, if you don't care about people's opinion on him then you could ask an admin to close the topic and make space on the front page for other posts.

Thank you for your time.
: Re: Azrael
: Waazraath September 30, 2010, 09:38:33 AM
A question How are you making sure that the Thralls and the followers you have are exactly of the level and class you want?
Isn't this metagaming?
Pardon me if this is a special ability of your build.....

This is actually quite a good question, from the DM-guide: "A character can try to attract a cohort of a particular race, class, and alignment. .... The DM determines the details of the cohort." (emphasis mine). Would suggest that anything besides race, class and alignment (like skills and feats) is up to the DM anyway. Isn't it?
: Re: Azrael
: Bozwevial September 30, 2010, 02:29:56 PM
I wasn't going to go through an entire fucking thread just to see if every synchronicity idea popped up...yeah it popped up on the third post but I wasn't going to go through all that "potential" trouble...you'll also notice that I only claimed that I "thought" I might have invented it...didn't claim I did.

"Synchronicity Nova...you know that thing I invented."

And like I said, it's in the third post. Even if you were to only read that thread for the pictures, you would have seen it. The "entire fucking thread" is three posts long. I barely had to do any work to find it, it would have taken maybe 30 seconds to read it and realize that you weren't the first to use Linked Power in conjunction. Even after I provided the thread for you, you didn't bother to read it, instead claiming in defiance of the evidence I had given that you were the first to use Linked Power, which is a pretty poor way to conduct an argument. I had to wade through Azrael's sheet, I think the least you can do is read to the third damn post in a thread.

As for the craft contingent spell...oops, my bad, I have read the feat several times before, I was just mistaken...my memory isn't perfect...fucking sue me (and don't try and say something like "well why are you exempt from your mistakes yet you come down hard on others when they make the same ones?" It wasn't the same mistake, only similar. I simply didn't remember something was there, what fallen angle did is completely fabricate something that wasn't there i.e. the Azrael having MDJ prepared when he clearly didn't).

It's only the most important way that CCS differs from Contingency. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect you to have read the feat in its entirety, or to notice the disclaimer at the end of the feat that provides a reference. As for Fallen Angle, you detail in the first post that Azrael uses COP to determine the best way to counter threats. His spell preparation is hardly immutable.

Ohhh, ok then...so you're saying that just because a lot of people see something the same way it makes it more true...well Jesus (no future pun intended) if that's the case then I guess a huge population of the world must be right about their whole organized religion thing...you know, because so many people believe it, its totally less subjective, and thus makes it true...guess I better change my evil ways or this Anthropomorphic God of theirs is going to smite me.

This isn't a religion debate. This is a lot of people arriving at the same conclusion independently: You're acting unnecessarily hostile and arrogant. There's a saying. If one person calls you a duck, laugh it off. If two people call you a duck, start to wonder. If three people call you a duck, take swimming lessons and learn to like bread.

Now onto the bolded statement...THANK YOU FOR FINALLY SAYING EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING ABOUT AZRAEL THIS WHOLE FUCKING TIME!! If the only builds you guys can bring in to combat Azrael are two of the most powerful builds in CO history than DAMN he must be powerful! I know, I know, you never said he wasn't...However, you did say he wasn't worthy of being considered one of the best CO builds. I think you just proved yourself wrong...thanks a bunch :D

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: Azrael is a powerful build. However, that alone doesn't make him worthy of being famous in CO terms. What does Azrael do that's unique?

Oh, and P.S. I can easily defeat his artificer with my 20th level straight sorcerer (which is actually a character you could play in a real game...imagine that) I didn't need Azrael, that was just the challenge.


Did anyone mention your sorcerer? Or care? How is this relevant to the argument?

Onto the last bit...

Lets just see how completely moot and pointless your argument is…

First of all, I only took 2 ideas from other people; and they were added after the character was finished. Those two ideas were the CoP use, and the respawn contingency...and guess what? I gave proper credit to both of them (well, at least Phaedrus, since I didn't know who created the respawn thingy) because that's what you do in Academia, and I have grown accustom to such devices.

I'm not denying you created Azrael yourself. The key point here is that a lot of the tricks, if not all of them, existed before now.

Secondly, how about you define original for me? Is it original if you have an idea that you came up on your own without being influenced by any other source? If not then I've got sad news for you HARDLY ANYTHING IS ORIGINAL! Sure some other people may have thought of the idea, but if you're worried about having an "original" idea that no one has ever thought of you automatically FAIL.

There are still original tricks cropping up here all the time. Go take a look around the forum. Caelic's cookie-themed Shadowcraft Mage, the 6th level DFA/Nosomatic Chirurgeon with 12d6 breath weapons--those are new combinations that cropped up recently. Yes, it is possible to be original in this context.

As that saying goes 'if you have a thought/idea, chances are six other people have had, or are having that idea at the exact same moment as you.' Here's an example: (this is directed more at males so females probably cant sympathize) have you ever just gotten totally grossed out when you get into a public restroom and there's just piss all over the toilet seat because some lazy bastard didn't care to lift it up? Me too...so one day I got to thinking, what if you apply the same (really the reverse) mechanics they use in those flip calculators (you know, the ones everyone just seem to love for no real good reason) to toilet seats? Basically, you would have easy to design, cheap, self-lifting toilet seats (which would require minimal pressure to keep down) that you could easily install in public bathrooms everywhere and save your customers from being totally grossed out by how disgusting the rest of humanity is (at least somewhat anyway). So what did I do, I looked online to see if anyone had thought of such a thing...and wouldn't cha' know it, there were several pattons, not just on my idea, but plenty of other variations...

Now, does that make it any less of an original idea...NO! Its just life...

The difference here is that you claimed to have invented one of these ideas. I showed you evidence to the contrary, and you blithely ignored it, saying you were "pretty sure" you were the first to improve on it in this manner when it was really clear that you weren't. So you didn't bother to read the argument presented and take it seriously, which doesn't help your case.

Do you think Einstein invented physics, or Mozart music? No, they just took a bunch of other people's ideas, theories, etc and combined them into their own unique thing...which, in case you don't live in the real world, IS HOW ALMOST EVERYTHING IS CREATED! Where do you think the word inspiration came from, hmmm?

This analogy isn't relevant at all. Physics and music are huge fields. That would be like me saying that Tsuyoshikentsu or Khan "invented" optimization. They made advances in those fields. The key difference here is that while Einstein used those other ideas as a springboard to devise (and I'm going to bold this part because it's important) new developments in his field, you're taking a bunch of ideas that already existed, lumping them together, and expecting the kind of praise that Khan got for coming up with Pun-Pun.

Just like I was inspired by Kell's idea about widening a Maw of Chaos to Widen his AMF so that no one could perceive Azrael unless they were inside the field, thus basically forcing them to waste an action buffing (yeah, maybe a character like the H.I.V.E. wouldn't have to, but almost every other character would...see what I did there, I took something someone else thought of, changed it a bit, and made it my own unique defense...which is something that (as far as I know) no one has EVER thought of doing...for christ sake, it basically makes him completely unapproachable by anything save for billions of characters coming at me at once...another reason that, if it came down to an actual fight (not them hiding in some extradimensional space sending out Astral Projections), I would beat pretty much all those 20th level wizards out there that you say are on par with Azrael...hell, why don't we take out the TO from all characters including Azrael...Azrael wins...since there are no CoP, no infinte actions, etc...hes pretty much invincible, and since the entire character H.I.V.E. relies on TO, he no longer exists...you see, that's the REAL power of Azrael, he doesn't need TO to be ultra powerful, most of these other characters do...and I think that's worth mentioning...but I digress.


More bolding for emphasis: This IS TO. Azrael is a Thrallherd with Thrallherd thralls and so on, Fusing himself with all his thralls and believers (which, I might add, are cherrypicked, rather than the DM-selected thralls that you would normally get), keeping his powers going with a Font of Power supplemented by Temporal Reiteration. I could stop there, not even mentioning the other tricks he uses, and it would be enough. This is quite simply beyond the level of power you could reasonably expect to use in the vast majority of games.


Now, if you want to make an issue that using things like genesis is a rip off then I guess any build that uses any common spell is ripping off of 10,000 other builds...what a ridiculous argument...Its like telling the wizard that uses magic missile that hes not being original because 100000000000000000000000000000000 wizards before him use(d) the spell.

I don't have a problem with Genesis. What I have a problem with is you expecting to take your place in CO history because you threw together a bunch of old tricks. Again, let me pose the question: What does Azrael do that no one else has done before? Thrallherd abuse? Fusion abuse? Temporal Reiteration/Font of Power abuse? High-level spells like Genesis, COP, Time Stop, Contingencies? Synchronicity Nova? Greater Consumptive Field CL abuse? The psicrystal save game mechanic?

In conclusion, your argument is pointless. Sure, there's no way I can prove to you that it was an original idea and not ripped off someone else, but I know, and that's enough for me. Because to me, you're all just faceless internet folks that have no bearing on my real life so I couldn't give a shit about what you think about me personally. The truth is, if you ever met me in person you would probably think I'm one of the nicest people you have ever met, I'm extremely easy to get along with...whatever it is that I exude in this internet form of mine is obviously a butchery of my real personality.

Perhaps it is the way I'm putting myself out there, or perhaps its the way you are perceiving it...remember, its the internet folks, any information that you don't know about a person is automatically filled in by your own prejudices, biases, and thoughts...ever had that experience when you've been talking to someone online for a long time and you finally meet them in person and they are NOTHING like you expected...yeah, same thing...

Be that as it may, you have time to think over your responses on the Internet. You could easily avoid coming across as hostile, but it's pervaded the thread.

And Azrael does bring something new to the table...why do you think I posted him in the first place. You're forgetting the original context (not that you were necessarily involved and could have remembered) in which he was brought up. Someone mentioned on the 'post your sig char' board after I posted a brief description of Azrael that they had never seen a 'fusion' char before, and would love to see the possibilities of min-maxing fusion. That's whats original about Azrael...the fact that hes the first char to really optimize (without becoming a God...though I guess now I should post that version as well) the fusion power (to my knowledge). H.I.V.E. has its niche as being many from one, Azrael is the opposite, one from many.


Fusion (ab)use has been around since the 100^10 contest. (Probably also since the XYZ of Smack builds, but I digress.)

That, and the whole not having to rely on TO to be super powerful...I think that was a good point :D Honestly, the character was basically completed before I added all that CoP and other shit in there...I just figured that since he was capable of it, and everyone else was doing it, I should as well...hell, it will only make him more powerful and I figured I would get called out on NOT using it, if I didn't...Guess this is just another case of 'damned if you do, damned if you don't'

How many times do I have to say it? This is TO. This is TO. This is TO. This is theoretical optimization. If you tried even the small portion I cited earlier in the vast majority of games, you'd have a book flying at your head. Theoretical optimization is stuff that isn't meant to be played in an actual game because it exceeds the bounds of accepted power by a significant margin. Azrael was TO well before the other stuff came into play.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael September 30, 2010, 05:01:01 PM
"Synchronicity Nova...you know that thing I invented."


Wow...way to selectively quote...just further proof that you're using little weasly tricks to win your argument...what I really said was this.

Synchronicity Nova...you know, that thing I invented (at least I'm pretty sure I did, since no one ever talked about it until I posted it on the boards, which, afterward, there were a storm of builds utilizing it and it was the talk of the town...which was then manipulated into the dominant ideal novaing).

Quite different...

More bolding for emphasis: This IS TO. Azrael is a Thrallherd with Thrallherd thralls and so on, Fusing himself with all his thralls and believers (which, I might add, are cherrypicked, rather than the DM-selected thralls that you would normally get), keeping his powers going with a Font of Power supplemented by Temporal Reiteration. I could stop there, not even mentioning the other tricks he uses, and it would be enough. This is quite simply beyond the level of power you could reasonably expect to use in the vast majority of games.

There are two types of TO as I see it.

1. TO where your character is so powerful it would be pointless to play him in a normal game.

2. TO where certain tricks make it impossible to play in a normal game...like CoP (because the DM is not omniscient for one).

Azrael is guilty of #1 but he could still theoretically be played in a normal game. What Azrael doesn't do is rely on TO like #2 in order to be really powerful...you know, like those 99% of 20th level wizards you claim Azrael is no better than do.



As for the rest of it. I won't even bother to comment on. Fallen Angle, you clearly don't understand the points I was trying to make and I don't have the time or energy to explain it to you. You're logic is terribly flawed and I cannot argue against people that have flawed logic because no matter what I say they will use said logic to pervert the meanings of things.

Oh, and BTW, I'm in graduate school and I have a perfect 4.0 GPA (which is rather difficult to accomplish, even in undergrad), so unless you are at least on the same level of academia as I (which you may be) don't fucking talk to me about what you think you know. The reality is, I'm excelling at the real thing, and even if you are on the same level or higher, I think my 4.0 GPA proves I know what I'm talking about. Also, I never claimed my method was identical to academia, I merely said that I use a few similar devices, such as giving proper appropriation. I am well aware that this type of discourse is unworthy of academic publishing, or even a term paper...thank you.


As for the rest of what Boz said...some better arguments than angle, but you also fail to grasp a few of the major points I was making (I'm not going to explain them again, I'm sure someone like Kell gets them), or acknowledge I was correct about them. Not to mention you clearly showed (see above quotes) that you have a knack for "selective quoting" in order to twist my statements and make yourself appear more correct.


The best POSSIBLE response for you now would be: "This conversation has degraded to immature name calling. Regardless of who started it, I will end it." Then stop making long personal responses to anyone. For any reason. Ideally you could go rework the original post, which several people have said was aggressive and confusing. On the other hand, if you don't care about people's opinion on him then you could ask an admin to close the topic and make space on the front page for other posts.

Thank you for your time.

You're right fallen, I should do that...oh wait...whats this...


Ignoring all that nonsense which continues to bash my character....someone has to be the bigger man and end this flamewar before it gets any larger...this is obviously some large subjective interpretation error about my demeanor and motives.

I tried to do that a while ago...did anyone listen...no.




I'm done with this...unless you have any constructive criticism that will help the character (and I did ask for help a while ago) I wont respond to these posts. I have real things to do with my time, like study in order to maintain my perfect GPA.

: Re: Azrael
: X-Codes September 30, 2010, 05:15:09 PM
I'm done with this...unless you have any constructive criticism that will help the character (and I did ask for help a while ago) I wont respond to these posts. I have real things to do with my time, like study in order to maintain my perfect GPA.


"K bye! :D"
: Re: Azrael
: Bozwevial September 30, 2010, 05:37:53 PM
Your "at least I'm pretty sure I did" doesn't matter here. Even when I pointed out that no, you actually weren't the inventor, you ignored my argument and went on to say "but I did it with Linked Power." Which is either a blatant lie or proof that you didn't bother reading the thread I provided. How can you expect me to take you seriously if you're going to respond like that? And you say I use weaselly tricks? Your word choice there was strong, and even though you added the disclaimer "at least I'm pretty sure I did," you really put yourself on the line. It didn't take long at all to find evidence to the contrary, and you could have saved yourself a lot of embarrassment if you had done the research. Instead, you made yourself look as if a) you were deliberately ignorant or b) blatantly lying.

Those aren't the accepted definitions of TO. You could totally play Pun-Pun in a game, but he'd be so far beyond the power curve it would be pointless. So by your logic, since Pun-Pun, like Azrael, falls under your first definition but not the second, he's not a "TO character." (So does that make him fair game for use against Azrael?)

As for your perfect GPA, I fail to see what that has to do with the argument at hand. Your grades don't have any effect on Azrael, nor should they be cited as an excuse for not responding to arguments. Your "level of academia" (and by the way, I have a hard time believing someone with that caliber of academic standing would make petty grammatical mistakes like "you're logic is terribly flawed," not read an argument before making a rebuttal, make a claim when a quick Google search could prove him to be wrong, or start using his credentials as a way to put down his opponents) doesn't somehow make your build better.

I'm done with this...unless you have any constructive criticism that will help the character (and I did ask for help a while ago) I wont respond to these posts. I have real things to do with my time, like study in order to maintain my perfect GPA.
"K bye! :D"
What he said.
: Re: Azrael
: bearsarebrown September 30, 2010, 06:33:17 PM
okay the last post about his gpa confirms it

he's trolling us guys
: Re: Azrael
: Bauglir September 30, 2010, 09:45:01 PM
okay the last post about his gpa confirms it

he's trolling us guys

This was probably all part of a social experiment in which we have been unwitting participants.
: Re: Azrael
: Lunaramblings September 30, 2010, 11:02:06 PM

More bolding for emphasis: This IS TO. Azrael is a Thrallherd with Thrallherd thralls and so on, Fusing himself with all his thralls and believers (which, I might add, are cherrypicked, rather than the DM-selected thralls that you would normally get), keeping his powers going with a Font of Power supplemented by Temporal Reiteration. I could stop there, not even mentioning the other tricks he uses, and it would be enough. This is quite simply beyond the level of power you could reasonably expect to use in the vast majority of games.

There are two types of TO as I see it.

1. TO where your character is so powerful it would be pointless to play him in a normal game.

2. TO where certain tricks make it impossible to play in a normal game...like CoP (because the DM is not omniscient for one).


Ok, so you are ignoring the fact that you have cherry picked your followers, thralls, etc. to a degree that is well beyond what is allowed by the rules, which were quoted for you. Since the thralls, followers, etc are what actually power your build, you are actually the exact definition of your second definition of TO. The DM is not obliged to give you whoever you want as a thrall or follower. And in fact, most would not. So, THEORETICALLY, if given the exact followers you wanted, Azrael could be quite powerful indeed. However, that is not a given. It is THEORY.
: Re: Azrael
: Damien_Wilacoth September 30, 2010, 11:16:27 PM
Since we're talking theory, couldn't Azrael retrain his believers'/thralls' levels to be what he needed?  Same with DCFS for their feats?  Wouldn't that solve the problem of not getting the exact levels he needed?
: Re: Azrael
: X-Codes September 30, 2010, 11:28:02 PM
Since we're talking theory, couldn't Azrael retrain his believers'/thralls' levels to be what he needed?  Same with DCFS for their feats?  Wouldn't that solve the problem of not getting the exact levels he needed?
Retraining levels and DCFS are both very TO concepts as well.
: Re: Azrael
: KellKheraptis September 30, 2010, 11:29:45 PM
There is also always Psychic Chirurgy rebuilding and Mindrape rebuilding.  Or level drain+positive energy infusion/dusk giant chowtime.  Levels are somewhat mutable at the high end...

EDIT : Also...there is always the idea of an immortal being literally depleting planets until he gets the thralls he wants.  He literally has eternity to get the right mix.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael October 01, 2010, 01:11:10 AM
This was probably all part of a social experiment in which we have been unwitting participants.

Not exactly...I won't profess the entire thing was intentionally a social experiment (which would be impossible because its unethical to use unwilling participants...or at least the results would be inadmissible without consent). However, I am known to put things out there on occasion just to see how people will react. After all, my undergrad was in Psychology, and my graduate studies are focused on...yep, you guessed it, internet and gaming cultures (within the actual field of Media Studies).


Ok, so you are ignoring the fact that you have cherry picked your followers, thralls, etc. to a degree that is well beyond what is allowed by the rules, which were quoted for you. Since the thralls, followers, etc are what actually power your build, you are actually the exact definition of your second definition of TO. The DM is not obliged to give you whoever you want as a thrall or follower. And in fact, most would not. So, THEORETICALLY, if given the exact followers you wanted, Azrael could be quite powerful indeed. However, that is not a given. It is THEORY.

Good point, I'm not ignoring it, but its impossible to build the character in the first place if I let someone else choose the thralls/believers, especially since no two people would pick the same thing. Therefore, in order for it to be a build at all I must choose them. Also, on those grounds, it does state somewhere in the DMG that the DM has the right to disallow any source material so by that logic any character falls prey to number 2, the only thing we can do is ignore it, just as we ignore that "rule."

On that note, I do believe we should (although it may be impossible) try to make the distinction between #1 and #2; perhaps on another topic. I think it will assist in adjusting the "power levels" of this game, and serve to make a distinction between TO characters. Since all type 2 builds seem to stalemate each other (which is essentially pointless) for similar reasons, in the spirit of diversity shouldn't we strive to create TO characters that only fall in the type 1 category; or at least make the clear distinction?   

It is my belief that Azrael may be among the most powerful type 1 (assuming we ignore the context former quote, and I change him to match the to-be-discussed criteria). I will likely have two versions of him, one that only uses #1 criteria and one that uses both. Other than bringing in infinite this, or CoP that, I'm really not sure what can beat him.

Retraining levels and DCFS are both very TO concepts as well.

Type 1 or 2?

There is also always Psychic Chirurgy rebuilding and Mindrape rebuilding.  Or level drain+positive energy infusion/dusk giant chowtime.  Levels are somewhat mutable at the high end...

EDIT : Also...there is always the idea of an immortal being literally depleting planets until he gets the thralls he wants.  He literally has eternity to get the right mix.

Also true.
: Re: Azrael
: The_Mad_Linguist October 01, 2010, 01:13:07 AM
If something is under the control of the DM, you can't assume best-case scenario.  Otherwise I could just say "I cast last breath until I get turned into the terrasque"
: Re: Azrael
: Lunaramblings October 01, 2010, 01:19:28 AM
He doesn't have eternity. Until he "gets the right mix" he is unable to do a lot of the things he is capable of doing. How many worlds do you think he will destroy before something somewhere puts him down since he will not be full powered? Seriously, Azrael is a nifty build, if the DM allows you to cherry pick your followers. But that automatically lends it to the realm of Theory rather than Practicality. Even assuming he could get 100 cherry picked individuals per world he destroys, and I would say that is a VERY high number. Lets say he gets through 2 worlds before something realizes what he is doing, which given a lowly 20th level character is capable of so many of his tricks, and with out his custom thralls and followers, that is really all he is, a God is likely to take notice and smite him before he ever is able to tear through enough realities to cherry pick his goon squad.

I am not arguing that this is a powerful build. It is. But it is definitely THEORETICAL. Which, Azrael, the poster, keeps claiming it isn't.
: Re: Azrael
: betrayor October 01, 2010, 01:22:04 AM
To clarify when I mention that about the thralls and the followers I did not say that It is Impossible to get them just that it is difficult to get them all immediately in your first try,
I suppose that Kell's idea has Merit,If you spend enough time you can find the thralls and the followers you want....
In anycase I want to understand something because english is not my native tongue so I may have Misurnderstood....
Are you claiming that your character is one that could be played in a game without problems or just that he works by raw?
Because if it the former I think you would be wrong...
Your character is way too powerful to allow him in a real game,it would make the game meaning less.
Anyway kudos to you for creating it even if some of the tricks were known.....

: Re: Azrael
: Lunaramblings October 01, 2010, 01:24:55 AM
This was probably all part of a social experiment in which we have been unwitting participants.

Not exactly...I won't profess the entire thing was intentionally a social experiment (which would be impossible because its unethical to use unwilling participants...or at least the results would be inadmissible without consent). However, I am known to put things out there on occasion just to see how people will react. After all, my undergrad was in Psychology, and my graduate studies are focused on...yep, you guessed it, internet and gaming cultures (within the actual field of Media Studies).


Ok, so you are ignoring the fact that you have cherry picked your followers, thralls, etc. to a degree that is well beyond what is allowed by the rules, which were quoted for you. Since the thralls, followers, etc are what actually power your build, you are actually the exact definition of your second definition of TO. The DM is not obliged to give you whoever you want as a thrall or follower. And in fact, most would not. So, THEORETICALLY, if given the exact followers you wanted, Azrael could be quite powerful indeed. However, that is not a given. It is THEORY.

Good point, I'm not ignoring it, but its impossible to build the character in the first place if I let someone else choose the thralls/believers, especially since no two people would pick the same thing. Therefore, in order for it to be a build at all I must choose them. Also, on those grounds, it does state somewhere in the DMG that the DM has the right to disallow any source material so by that logic any character falls prey to number 2, the only thing we can do is ignore it, just as we ignore that "rule."

On that note, I do believe we should (although it may be impossible) try to make the distinction between #1 and #2; perhaps on another topic. I think it will assist in adjusting the "power levels" of this game, and serve to make a distinction between TO characters. Since all type 2 builds seem to stalemate each other (which is essentially pointless) for similar reasons, in the spirit of diversity shouldn't we strive to create TO characters that only fall in the type 1 category; or at least make the clear distinction?   

It is my belief that Azrael may be among the most powerful type 1 (assuming we ignore the context former quote, and I change him to match the to-be-discussed criteria). I will likely have two versions of him, one that only uses #1 criteria and one that uses both. Other than bringing in infinite this, or CoP that, I'm really not sure what can beat him.

Retraining levels and DCFS are both very TO concepts as well.

Type 1 or 2?

There is also always Psychic Chirurgy rebuilding and Mindrape rebuilding.  Or level drain+positive energy infusion/dusk giant chowtime.  Levels are somewhat mutable at the high end...

EDIT : Also...there is always the idea of an immortal being literally depleting planets until he gets the thralls he wants.  He literally has eternity to get the right mix.

Also true.

So basically since it is impossible to build Azrael without YOUR OWN DEFINITION OF TO, you choose to ignore it? Seriously? So you admit he is TO, but you also argue he isnt?

There is a difference between a DM disallowing, say Psionic Shot, and cherry picking the very best possible thralls/followers.

Seriously. Great build. I mean that. But it IS TO. By every definition I have ever known of. Including your own.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael October 01, 2010, 01:27:54 AM
The problem is, which kind of TO is it?



Type 1 denotes anything that could theoretically be played in a normal game, it would just be pointless to do so since you would have no fun playing the character and ruining the DM's campaign (unless you like that sort of thing).

Type 2 denotes anything that is impossible to play in a normal game, such as CoP (because the DM is not omniscient and probably doesn't know himself what you will face. Yes you could do that preemptive CoP thing, but that's kind of silly, albeit a good idea), or Genesis/Astral Projection combos (since you cant really be part of the party anymore; though I suppose that's arguable), or any type of infinite actions (since that basically gives you complete control over the campaign).



Picking my own cohorts doesn't make it impossible to play in a normal game, thus it falls under type 1. Also, for the most part, every DM I have ever known has let me (or other players) pick their own cohorts/followers.


I think we really should make this type 1/type 2 thing a real issue. Its been on my mind for quite some time now and I would like to see it put into common practice if possible.
: Re: Azrael
: Lunaramblings October 01, 2010, 01:35:08 AM
The problem is, which kind of theory is it?



Type 1 denotes anything that could theoretically be played in a normal game, it would just be pointless to do so since you would have no fun playing the character and ruining the DM's campaign (unless you like that sort of thing).

Type 2 denotes anything that is impossible to play in a normal game, such as CoP (because the DM is not omniscient and probably doesn't know himself what you will face. Yes you could do that preemptive CoP thing, but that's kind of silly, albeit a good idea), or Genesis/Astral Projection combos (since you cant really be part of the party anymore; though I suppose that's arguable).



Picking my own cohorts doesn't make it impossible to play in a normal game, thus it falls under type 1. Also, for the most part, every DM I have ever known has let me (or other players) pick their own cohorts/followers.


I think we really should make this type 1/type 2 thing a real issue. Its been on my mind for quite some time now and I would like to see it put into common practice if possible.

I have had DMs allow me to pick Class, Race and Alignment, but never to the degree, including stats and all, that you want. That is ridiculous. And of course you want to move the goal posts. It benefits your argument. I do not know any DM that would allow this in their campaign. This meets BOTH definitions you gave. It abuses COP and Genesis, which you determine to be type 2, and it is basically a compilation of several builds, making it completely unsuitable for most games as it basically means everyone else is useless.

Seriously. By both of your own definitions, this is TO. I don't know what more to say. So are you agreeing that what you have stated several times, that Azrael is not TO, is in fact untrue?
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael October 01, 2010, 01:39:18 AM
Yeah I just read that...actually, It does specifically say the player can choose class, race, and alignment...and that's all Azrael needs. Once they have been subsumed by him, he can switch around their skill ranks, feats, and spells (and he has already done so, as I said before) with psychic reformation...so I guess this isn't a TO issue after all.

Also, I can take away the CoP and genesis...as I have stated before, it came after the build was already complete and doesn't necessarily rely on them. I said, I plan on having two Azraels...its in the prior post.
: Re: Azrael
: Lunaramblings October 01, 2010, 02:36:35 AM
Ok and you are also assuming stats. Seriously, it IS TO. You are assuming that they have the spells you want, the powers known you want, the Stats you want, etc. There is nothing that says that they should have anything but the classes that you might want. They could be a Wizard, that is a focused specialist banning schools that you particularly want, and they still meet the structure of what you are attempting to get. Also, it specifies that you MAY attempt to attract followers of a particular race, class, or alignment. Followers/Cohorts/Thralls are all strictly DM's choice. Also, there is no guarentee that you can shuffle the feats that they have. If they have the same feats you do, you don't get the feat. The feat is overwritten as per Fusion. If the feat doesn't exist, you cant shuffle it.

As I said, it is a great build. But there is simply so much that is requisite on DM perspective. Also, if you lose Genesis and CoP, that certainly gives an edge back to those that were trying to defeat you. I really think that there is too much in your build that relies on the DM allowing liberal interpretations, very min/maxed cohorts and such designed exactly to your specifications, etc. And again, I don't see how this would play in a game. If given all of the things you want, it makes every party member useless. Hence, it is in fact Theoretical as it would not see Practical, or Actual play.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael October 01, 2010, 02:53:19 AM
Assuming stats...their stats are virtually irrelevant...I only assumed that they had an 18 base stat in their relevant ability (there's even a note for this), which honestly, isn't pushing it. As I said, I can change their spells and powers once subsumed so that's also irrelevant. As for the foc-spec issue...I actually don't have too many wizard followers, and if they came out foc-spec I could just kill them and get a new one until I got the right one. Also, I have all those foc-specialist feats from Faerun that allow you to cast spells from your prohibited schools...so either way.

As for the feats...I can always shuffle the feat that Azrael has, changing it so when the cohort is subsumed, it doesn't match.

As for the "may," that only makes it borderline TO (but type 1 TO nonetheless).

If I take away the Gen and CoP it does give them an edge. However, if I do so, I am basically assuming such spells will be outright banned so my enemies wouldn't have it either (since both are type 2 and I am trying to make one version a type 1 char). In other-words, only type 1 vs type 1.

I never said I would play him in a game...only that he theoretically could be played.
: Re: Azrael
: The_Mad_Linguist October 01, 2010, 03:04:47 AM
Pun-pun has been played in actual games (plural).  So if anything your dude is further on the TO side of your scale than Pun-Pun.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael October 01, 2010, 11:57:51 AM
I hope that's not an actual argument.
: Re: Azrael
: Waazraath October 01, 2010, 03:38:36 PM
Ok, somebody help me out here: in my perception, the discussion comes to the point where the argument is that the build 'TO type 1' and not 'TO type 2', those being distinctions that to all my knowledge didn't exist before this whole post, and among other things, this is so because the presumption is that only class and race are decided by the builder, despite the explicit DM-fiat on these matters as in the leadership rules, and that the rest of the feats and class abilities can just be done with DCFS, (an in my view rather liberal interpretation of) mindrape and psychic reformation????

I mean... that's what I can make up from the last page of discussion, but I must be wrong cause if I'm not I don't know whether to  :lmao or  :banghead


Come on people... the border of what TO is is vague and depends per campaign, but we're so fare here into the land of Limburgia that I won't be able to taste the piece of Danish Blue I intended to eat, what the hell is being discussed and why does it matter?
: Re: Azrael
: turok124 October 01, 2010, 04:07:07 PM
i don't think it really matters what feats, spells, and powers the thralls and believers have since he could just use Psychic Reformation in his fused form to change them all to whatever he wants....right?
: Re: Azrael
: Lunaramblings October 01, 2010, 10:16:04 PM
i don't think it really matters what feats, spells, and powers the thralls and believers have since he could just use Psychic Reformation in his fused form to change them all to whatever he wants....right?

No he couldn't. He would have to change any feat he has to a feat they don't have in order to keep the slot, then he would have to reassign them again after the Fusion.

And, if he is just killing his followers that aren't exactly what he wants, then he is certainly going to have a hard time finding more followers in short order. Further, why would anyone want to give up their existence to become an apparently permanent piece of Azrael? I am sorry, I just can not see why this would be the goal of anyone. Especially a Cleric, who has devoted himself to a God or Cause for his entire life, only then to abandon it, just to become a piece of this entity. Really, it does not make sense in a RP sense. Similar for a Wizard or Psion. It really does not make sense for them to willingly pretty much cease to exist for all intents and purposes.
: Re: Azrael
: Archmage Joda October 02, 2010, 05:33:17 AM
In all fairness, Azrael also uses thrallherd, which has its own special leadership rules and fluff, to the tune of they come to him 24 hrs later regardless of what he did to the previous ones, and are compelled to come on a subconscious level that overrides things like that.
: Re: Azrael
: Lunaramblings October 02, 2010, 12:54:13 PM
Also, how does Azrael know which feats his would be thralls have? Also, it says his thralls arrive to serve, not be completely erased and consumed by the Thrallherd. To me this is a key difference. Willingness to serve is fine, but willingness to be consumed is another. It is one of the points that makes this TO. Between the power level, the fact that it makes just about any party member useless, and the fact that it is assuming only the precise mix that it wants, and the fact that there are RP issues with how you convince your Thralls/Believers to allow you to pretty much permanently absorb them, this is TO, as in the only definition that existed before this thread, and both definitions the OP has given.
: Re: Azrael
: Archmage Joda October 02, 2010, 03:00:12 PM
Willing servants -> willing targets of powers ->Willing targets of fusion. But aside from this, I don't really disagree with anything else in that paragraph, like the part where Azrael is TO, so now it is time for me to fade back into obscurity.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael October 02, 2010, 04:18:56 PM
If you'll read my posts I never said he wasn't TO, he's just not the type of TO that makes him completely unplayable. Sure, playing him would be essentially pointless since he can do virtually anything, but he is nonetheless playable. Compare this to a char that pretty much solely relies on constantly being on another plane of existence (one that likely has a different time stream), CoPing every challeng (which makes it impossibl for any dm to adjudicate) and sending his astral projection out to do everything.

Yes, azrael is capable of these things but he doesn't rely on them as the primary source of his power. Thus, if you take those (what I call) "type 2" elements away from most characters then Azrael really begins to shine.

Yes, you could make the argument that if you take certain choice elements away from any game and leave other choice elements in then any given character can benefit. However I'm not attempting to define those elements, only suggest which classifications certain things should fall under. Which is why I want other opinions on type 1 and type 2 material.
: Re: Azrael
: PlzBreakMyCampaign October 02, 2010, 06:30:46 PM
Putting up the good fight here azrael? This thing took a lot of work...

Finally took a look at all this (for selfish reasons) and you have many references to abilities not in the mango index: Irresistible Spell (please tell its not from the license-defunct and broken kingdoms of kalamar stuff...) and spell engine are the ones I remember.

This is fusion abuse at its lengthiest. I'm confused about the continuous family domain and so forth but I probably just haven't looked hard enough (this thing needs a roadmap).

Speaking of fusion abuse where is that classic Trinity build? I don't have it in my dirty handbook fixes!
: Re: Azrael
: Lunaramblings October 02, 2010, 08:42:16 PM
If you'll read my posts I never said he wasn't TO, he's just not the type of TO that makes him completely unplayable. Sure, playing him would be essentially pointless since he can do virtually anything, but he is nonetheless playable. Compare this to a char that pretty much solely relies on constantly being on another plane of existence (one that likely has a different time stream), CoPing every challeng (which makes it impossibl for any dm to adjudicate) and sending his astral projection out to do everything.

Yes, azrael is capable of these things but he doesn't rely on them as the primary source of his power. Thus, if you take those (what I call) "type 2" elements away from most characters then Azrael really begins to shine.

Yes, you could make the argument that if you take certain choice elements away from any game and leave other choice elements in then any given character can benefit. However I'm not attempting to define those elements, only suggest which classifications certain things should fall under. Which is why I want other opinions on type 1 and type 2 material.

Well, it seems that you have edited most of your posts to take out mentions, but you were actually quoted by someone back on page 9 as saying that Azrael was a Non-TO character. You have been proven wrong on that so you are moving goalposts. I get it. Your one of those guys.

Seriously, you have a nice build. But it really is just a compilation of several builds, LITERALLY Fused together. And, like I said, I think most DMs would draw a line between willing to help you with adventuring and ceasing to exist to become part of you. Most DMs would not allow Fusion abuse like this. Hence the entirety of the build is TO as without that Fusion you have nothing particularly special. Despite your effort to Stealth edit your statements throughout this thread, this is something that 5 days ago you claimed was not the case.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael October 03, 2010, 03:12:39 AM
Putting up the good fight here azrael? This thing took a lot of work...

Finally took a look at all this (for selfish reasons) and you have many references to abilities not in the mango index: Irresistible Spell (please tell its not from the license-defunct and broken kingdoms of kalamar stuff...) and spell engine are the ones I remember.

This is fusion abuse at its lengthiest. I'm confused about the continuous family domain and so forth but I probably just haven't looked hard enough (this thing needs a roadmap).

Speaking of fusion abuse where is that classic Trinity build? I don't have it in my dirty handbook fixes!

Irresistible Spell is from Kalimar but its official material, it has the official seal just like any other official material, and the official errata doesn't change the feat. The unofficial errata removes it but hey...I think if there was "unofficial errata" for every book most of the things we do here wouldn't be allowed. So saying that irresistible spell isn't viable because the unofficial errata bans it isn't really a good argument (not that you said that exactly, but other people were).

Spell Engine is in SpC I think.

The family domain is a power which you activate for 1 min/level (or something) a day. It has a duration so therefore its permanent with the temporal reiteration/font of power combo. Since it grants a dodge bonus and dodge bonuses stack I figure I can just have a billion of them active at the same time, since the reiteration will persist them, and the dodge bonuses shouldn't override each other...but I could be wrong.

Also, I did fail to mention before that my Azrael fusion idea has been around since the week complete psi came out (the very second I read the temporal reiteration power). So it is probably one of the oldest fusion builds. I just didn't post it back then. Sure, there's no way to prove that or anything...I'm just saying. He started off as a simple leadership build with only him and his cohort...which then evolved when I figured I could fuse his followers, and evolved again when I used thrallherd, and evolved once more when I nested thrallherds into the "final" form you see today. 

Well, it seems that you have edited most of your posts to take out mentions, but you were actually quoted by someone back on page 9 as saying that Azrael was a Non-TO character. You have been proven wrong on that so you are moving goalposts. I get it. Your one of those guys.

Seriously, you have a nice build. But it really is just a compilation of several builds, LITERALLY Fused together. And, like I said, I think most DMs would draw a line between willing to help you with adventuring and ceasing to exist to become part of you. Most DMs would not allow Fusion abuse like this. Hence the entirety of the build is TO as without that Fusion you have nothing particularly special. Despite your effort to Stealth edit your statements throughout this thread, this is something that 5 days ago you claimed was not the case.

I apparently had a different definition of TO than they did. I only meant he wasn't a type 2 char (not that I thought that such a distinction existed, it was merely my own interpretation of what TO was). So I'm not one of "those" guys...whatever that means exactly.

Also, if you cared to actually look into these so called "stealth edits" you would find that for 90% of them the time edited is only a few minutes after the time posted (seriously, go look). The reason most of my posts are edited is because I hate looking at the post in these windows (yes I know you can preview) so I post it, then read over it and fix a few of the more obvious grammatical errors (not all...this isn't a term paper you know). If I really was going back and "stealth editing" my posts the time/date of the edit would be hours or days afterward.

Don't take this the wrong way but I cant talk to you anymore about this because you clearly aren't understanding my arguments. Perhaps I am not making myself clear, or perhaps its an error in interpretation on your part. Regardless of what I say, you keep making the same argument against Azrael.

I will say this one more time...

It doesn't matter what the DM may or may not allow, that has never been the issue. The issue is, Azrael does not rely (as the primary source of his power) on certain types of TO which make it impossible to adjudicate or play a game; such as CoP, and infinite actions. Although Azrael can do these things, he remains extremely powerful without them.

Azrael is TO I have never disputed that. I would derive no pleasure playing him in any campaign because he is too powerful. However, he is not impossible to play in a campaign...if the campaign were made up of Gods, or creatures from the book of immortals he might even be allowed as a normal character. If Azrael relied on techniques like CoP and infinite actions it would make him impossible to play (please note the difference between "too powerful" and "impossible" that is the difference between type 1 and type 2 TO) because either

1. The DM is not psychic, and thus it is impossible to adjudicate CoP in the manner most TO people utilize it unless someone found a realistic way to do the preemptive action CoP idea. However, even if they did, issues such as "who existed first" would likely arise, and thus make it impossible to continue.

2. Infinite anything pretty much hands the entire multiverse on a silver platter to the player using said infinite combo...thus the DM might as well just concede that the character kills everything in the multiverse and is the only sentient being left.

3. I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons.

My "new" argument with Azrael involves collecting data on what types of TO objectively (this is not a subjective matter) make it impossible, or nearly impossible to play a game, classifying them, eliminating any of them from Azrael, and then evaluating him based on other potential matchups versus characters without such TO.

It is also my hope (however lofty) that through this classification we can develop a new curriculum for designing characters; similar to the tier system.


I do hope I have made myself clear this time...if not, perhaps someone like Kell can assist me...he seems to understand what I am saying most of the time.
: Re: Azrael
: X-Codes October 03, 2010, 05:28:18 AM
Enough is enough, guys.  Azrael's been beaten in arguments by everyone that's cared enough to try, and the only person that refuses to acknowledge as much is Azrael himself.  Just stop posting here and the thread will eventually fall off the front page of the forum, Azrael will be forced to go back to crying himself to sleep at night because his 4.0 GPA isn't enough to make him feel like he's got an enormous penis, and everyone who participated initially and then left afterwards will have the satisfaction of setting something right in the world.  Yes, it's a small, insignificant something that was set right, but it was something.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael October 03, 2010, 08:41:52 PM
Wow, no one was even talking to you...and what happened with you being done with this thread? Hmm? You obviously get some sadistic pleasure in bullying other people on the internet. Were you the tough guy in highschool? Do you miss that feeling of power over your peers? Or were you perhaps an outcast, with the internet being the only source of power for you?

The only thing I acknowledged was that it was a stalemate...which it was (and if you want to talk about acknowledgment, I could site all the times people ignored my arguments completely in order to strengthen their own...like the past 5 or so posts I have made). My simple prestidigitation contingency and clever use of CoP has proven that. What I failed to acknowledge, because I was baiting you (as Bauglir pointed out), is that anyone can essentially do the same thing and stalemate pretty much any character...even Pun-Pun; I even had proponents for this argument.

Now, my reasoning for this (as I have been trying to explain in my recent posts) is for developing a new system (similar to tiers) for classifying TO. If pretty much anyone can use a combination of infinite actions, CoP, etc to stalemate any other character it becomes pointless to make any character (other than to show off) that can use such mechanisms. Certain uses of CoP, and similar brokenness, were basically the end of all optimization in my opinion because almost every TO char has access to it, and uses it, thus making the rest of the build (whatever it may be) almost completely pointless. Incase any of you play MTG this is one of the main reasons they ban and restrict cards. Other than a card being ultra powerful, once a card becomes used in just about every deck in a certain format its time to restrict its usage. It is my belief that we must do the same thing with D&D, or at the very least define it as its own separate thing, rather than being dumped in there with the rest of TO. 

I want to be able to make TO characters and NOT contend with things like CoP; and it would be nice if this was a recognizable format, for the sake of ease. As I mentioned several times, I added all those CoP and other common things after the character was completed; it felt forced, like I had no choice but to include them. The real point in posting Azrael was to illustrate that using type 2 elements only creates situations where other type 2 characters must be used in order to defeat him...and likely end in a stalemate anyway.

But I wasn't talking to you anyway, you're just further proof that no one seems to be on the same page as I am. Also, I would like to note that you have personally insulted me many times, If you feel that you need to insult people on the internet in order to feel better about yourself, do it on 4chan where that thing belongs.
: Re: Azrael
: fallen-angle October 04, 2010, 04:07:06 AM
If there is to be a discussion about a ban list for D&D I am all up for it. But can we have it in a new thread?

This one is so filled with bickering and back-and-fourth that it has tainted all debate.

On the note of baiting. It would have been more effective just to acknowledge the fact and directly propose a "Type 2" format directly. (I'd say Legacy would be a better name, given the extremely high level and access to materials). Bickering does nothing for the credibility of the argument regardless of intent.
: Re: Azrael
: Azrael October 04, 2010, 04:17:48 PM
True, the bickering may lower the credibility of the argument. However, if I have already gotten someone to agree with me prior to making the statement about type 2 then I believe it strengthens it beyond any point that even bickering could spoil.

I will make another thread I just wanted to see if anyone was even interested in the subject before doing so. Its more than a ban list, which I'm sure has been attempted many times. Its mostly an acknowledgment that there are various types of TO which cannot intermingle with each other (fairly); rather than it being classified as one broad category.