Azrael

[KellKheraptis]

There is also always Psychic Chirurgy rebuilding and Mindrape rebuilding.  Or level drain+positive energy infusion/dusk giant chowtime.  Levels are somewhat mutable at the high end...

EDIT : Also...there is always the idea of an immortal being literally depleting planets until he gets the thralls he wants.  He literally has eternity to get the right mix.

[Azrael]

This was probably all part of a social experiment in which we have been unwitting participants.

Not exactly...I won't profess the entire thing was intentionally a social experiment (which would be impossible because its unethical to use unwilling participants...or at least the results would be inadmissible without consent). However, I am known to put things out there on occasion just to see how people will react. After all, my undergrad was in Psychology, and my graduate studies are focused on...yep, you guessed it, internet and gaming cultures (within the actual field of Media Studies).

Ok, so you are ignoring the fact that you have cherry picked your followers, thralls, etc. to a degree that is well beyond what is allowed by the rules, which were quoted for you. Since the thralls, followers, etc are what actually power your build, you are actually the exact definition of your second definition of TO. The DM is not obliged to give you whoever you want as a thrall or follower. And in fact, most would not. So, THEORETICALLY, if given the exact followers you wanted, Azrael could be quite powerful indeed. However, that is not a given. It is THEORY.

Good point, I'm not ignoring it, but its impossible to build the character in the first place if I let someone else choose the thralls/believers, especially since no two people would pick the same thing. Therefore, in order for it to be a build at all I must choose them. Also, on those grounds, it does state somewhere in the DMG that the DM has the right to disallow any source material so by that logic any character falls prey to number 2, the only thing we can do is ignore it, just as we ignore that "rule."

On that note, I do believe we should (although it may be impossible) try to make the distinction between #1 and #2; perhaps on another topic. I think it will assist in adjusting the "power levels" of this game, and serve to make a distinction between TO characters. Since all type 2 builds seem to stalemate each other (which is essentially pointless) for similar reasons, in the spirit of diversity shouldn't we strive to create TO characters that only fall in the type 1 category; or at least make the clear distinction?   

It is my belief that Azrael may be among the most powerful type 1 (assuming we ignore the context former quote, and I change him to match the to-be-discussed criteria). I will likely have two versions of him, one that only uses #1 criteria and one that uses both. Other than bringing in infinite this, or CoP that, I'm really not sure what can beat him.

Retraining levels and DCFS are both very TO concepts as well.

Type 1 or 2?

There is also always Psychic Chirurgy rebuilding and Mindrape rebuilding.  Or level drain+positive energy infusion/dusk giant chowtime.  Levels are somewhat mutable at the high end...

EDIT : Also...there is always the idea of an immortal being literally depleting planets until he gets the thralls he wants.  He literally has eternity to get the right mix.

Also true.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

If something is under the control of the DM, you can't assume best-case scenario.  Otherwise I could just say "I cast last breath until I get turned into the terrasque"

[Lunaramblings]

He doesn't have eternity. Until he "gets the right mix" he is unable to do a lot of the things he is capable of doing. How many worlds do you think he will destroy before something somewhere puts him down since he will not be full powered? Seriously, Azrael is a nifty build, if the DM allows you to cherry pick your followers. But that automatically lends it to the realm of Theory rather than Practicality. Even assuming he could get 100 cherry picked individuals per world he destroys, and I would say that is a VERY high number. Lets say he gets through 2 worlds before something realizes what he is doing, which given a lowly 20th level character is capable of so many of his tricks, and with out his custom thralls and followers, that is really all he is, a God is likely to take notice and smite him before he ever is able to tear through enough realities to cherry pick his goon squad.

I am not arguing that this is a powerful build. It is. But it is definitely THEORETICAL. Which, Azrael, the poster, keeps claiming it isn't.

[betrayor]

To clarify when I mention that about the thralls and the followers I did not say that It is Impossible to get them just that it is difficult to get them all immediately in your first try,
I suppose that Kell's idea has Merit,If you spend enough time you can find the thralls and the followers you want....
In anycase I want to understand something because english is not my native tongue so I may have Misurnderstood....
Are you claiming that your character is one that could be played in a game without problems or just that he works by raw?
Because if it the former I think you would be wrong...
Your character is way too powerful to allow him in a real game,it would make the game meaning less.
Anyway kudos to you for creating it even if some of the tricks were known.....

[Lunaramblings]

This was probably all part of a social experiment in which we have been unwitting participants.

Not exactly...I won't profess the entire thing was intentionally a social experiment (which would be impossible because its unethical to use unwilling participants...or at least the results would be inadmissible without consent). However, I am known to put things out there on occasion just to see how people will react. After all, my undergrad was in Psychology, and my graduate studies are focused on...yep, you guessed it, internet and gaming cultures (within the actual field of Media Studies).

Ok, so you are ignoring the fact that you have cherry picked your followers, thralls, etc. to a degree that is well beyond what is allowed by the rules, which were quoted for you. Since the thralls, followers, etc are what actually power your build, you are actually the exact definition of your second definition of TO. The DM is not obliged to give you whoever you want as a thrall or follower. And in fact, most would not. So, THEORETICALLY, if given the exact followers you wanted, Azrael could be quite powerful indeed. However, that is not a given. It is THEORY.

Good point, I'm not ignoring it, but its impossible to build the character in the first place if I let someone else choose the thralls/believers, especially since no two people would pick the same thing. Therefore, in order for it to be a build at all I must choose them. Also, on those grounds, it does state somewhere in the DMG that the DM has the right to disallow any source material so by that logic any character falls prey to number 2, the only thing we can do is ignore it, just as we ignore that "rule."

On that note, I do believe we should (although it may be impossible) try to make the distinction between #1 and #2; perhaps on another topic. I think it will assist in adjusting the "power levels" of this game, and serve to make a distinction between TO characters. Since all type 2 builds seem to stalemate each other (which is essentially pointless) for similar reasons, in the spirit of diversity shouldn't we strive to create TO characters that only fall in the type 1 category; or at least make the clear distinction?   

It is my belief that Azrael may be among the most powerful type 1 (assuming we ignore the context former quote, and I change him to match the to-be-discussed criteria). I will likely have two versions of him, one that only uses #1 criteria and one that uses both. Other than bringing in infinite this, or CoP that, I'm really not sure what can beat him.

Retraining levels and DCFS are both very TO concepts as well.

Type 1 or 2?

There is also always Psychic Chirurgy rebuilding and Mindrape rebuilding.  Or level drain+positive energy infusion/dusk giant chowtime.  Levels are somewhat mutable at the high end...

EDIT : Also...there is always the idea of an immortal being literally depleting planets until he gets the thralls he wants.  He literally has eternity to get the right mix.

Also true.

So basically since it is impossible to build Azrael without YOUR OWN DEFINITION OF TO, you choose to ignore it? Seriously? So you admit he is TO, but you also argue he isnt?

There is a difference between a DM disallowing, say Psionic Shot, and cherry picking the very best possible thralls/followers.

Seriously. Great build. I mean that. But it IS TO. By every definition I have ever known of. Including your own.

[Azrael]

The problem is, which kind of TO is it?



Type 1 denotes anything that could theoretically be played in a normal game, it would just be pointless to do so since you would have no fun playing the character and ruining the DM's campaign (unless you like that sort of thing).

Type 2 denotes anything that is impossible to play in a normal game, such as CoP (because the DM is not omniscient and probably doesn't know himself what you will face. Yes you could do that preemptive CoP thing, but that's kind of silly, albeit a good idea), or Genesis/Astral Projection combos (since you cant really be part of the party anymore; though I suppose that's arguable), or any type of infinite actions (since that basically gives you complete control over the campaign).



Picking my own cohorts doesn't make it impossible to play in a normal game, thus it falls under type 1. Also, for the most part, every DM I have ever known has let me (or other players) pick their own cohorts/followers.


I think we really should make this type 1/type 2 thing a real issue. Its been on my mind for quite some time now and I would like to see it put into common practice if possible.

[Lunaramblings]

The problem is, which kind of theory is it?



Type 1 denotes anything that could theoretically be played in a normal game, it would just be pointless to do so since you would have no fun playing the character and ruining the DM's campaign (unless you like that sort of thing).

Type 2 denotes anything that is impossible to play in a normal game, such as CoP (because the DM is not omniscient and probably doesn't know himself what you will face. Yes you could do that preemptive CoP thing, but that's kind of silly, albeit a good idea), or Genesis/Astral Projection combos (since you cant really be part of the party anymore; though I suppose that's arguable).



Picking my own cohorts doesn't make it impossible to play in a normal game, thus it falls under type 1. Also, for the most part, every DM I have ever known has let me (or other players) pick their own cohorts/followers.


I think we really should make this type 1/type 2 thing a real issue. Its been on my mind for quite some time now and I would like to see it put into common practice if possible.

I have had DMs allow me to pick Class, Race and Alignment, but never to the degree, including stats and all, that you want. That is ridiculous. And of course you want to move the goal posts. It benefits your argument. I do not know any DM that would allow this in their campaign. This meets BOTH definitions you gave. It abuses COP and Genesis, which you determine to be type 2, and it is basically a compilation of several builds, making it completely unsuitable for most games as it basically means everyone else is useless.

Seriously. By both of your own definitions, this is TO. I don't know what more to say. So are you agreeing that what you have stated several times, that Azrael is not TO, is in fact untrue?

[Azrael]

Yeah I just read that...actually, It does specifically say the player can choose class, race, and alignment...and that's all Azrael needs. Once they have been subsumed by him, he can switch around their skill ranks, feats, and spells (and he has already done so, as I said before) with psychic reformation...so I guess this isn't a TO issue after all.

Also, I can take away the CoP and genesis...as I have stated before, it came after the build was already complete and doesn't necessarily rely on them. I said, I plan on having two Azraels...its in the prior post.

[Lunaramblings]

Ok and you are also assuming stats. Seriously, it IS TO. You are assuming that they have the spells you want, the powers known you want, the Stats you want, etc. There is nothing that says that they should have anything but the classes that you might want. They could be a Wizard, that is a focused specialist banning schools that you particularly want, and they still meet the structure of what you are attempting to get. Also, it specifies that you MAY attempt to attract followers of a particular race, class, or alignment. Followers/Cohorts/Thralls are all strictly DM's choice. Also, there is no guarentee that you can shuffle the feats that they have. If they have the same feats you do, you don't get the feat. The feat is overwritten as per Fusion. If the feat doesn't exist, you cant shuffle it.

As I said, it is a great build. But there is simply so much that is requisite on DM perspective. Also, if you lose Genesis and CoP, that certainly gives an edge back to those that were trying to defeat you. I really think that there is too much in your build that relies on the DM allowing liberal interpretations, very min/maxed cohorts and such designed exactly to your specifications, etc. And again, I don't see how this would play in a game. If given all of the things you want, it makes every party member useless. Hence, it is in fact Theoretical as it would not see Practical, or Actual play.

[Azrael]

Assuming stats...their stats are virtually irrelevant...I only assumed that they had an 18 base stat in their relevant ability (there's even a note for this), which honestly, isn't pushing it. As I said, I can change their spells and powers once subsumed so that's also irrelevant. As for the foc-spec issue...I actually don't have too many wizard followers, and if they came out foc-spec I could just kill them and get a new one until I got the right one. Also, I have all those foc-specialist feats from Faerun that allow you to cast spells from your prohibited schools...so either way.

As for the feats...I can always shuffle the feat that Azrael has, changing it so when the cohort is subsumed, it doesn't match.

As for the "may," that only makes it borderline TO (but type 1 TO nonetheless).

If I take away the Gen and CoP it does give them an edge. However, if I do so, I am basically assuming such spells will be outright banned so my enemies wouldn't have it either (since both are type 2 and I am trying to make one version a type 1 char). In other-words, only type 1 vs type 1.

I never said I would play him in a game...only that he theoretically could be played.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Pun-pun has been played in actual games (plural).  So if anything your dude is further on the TO side of your scale than Pun-Pun.

[Azrael]

I hope that's not an actual argument.

[Waazraath]

Ok, somebody help me out here: in my perception, the discussion comes to the point where the argument is that the build 'TO type 1' and not 'TO type 2', those being distinctions that to all my knowledge didn't exist before this whole post, and among other things, this is so because the presumption is that only class and race are decided by the builder, despite the explicit DM-fiat on these matters as in the leadership rules, and that the rest of the feats and class abilities can just be done with DCFS, (an in my view rather liberal interpretation of) mindrape and psychic reformation?

I mean... that's what I can make up from the last page of discussion, but I must be wrong cause if I'm not I don't know whether to  or 


Come on people... the border of what TO is is vague and depends per campaign, but we're so fare here into the land of Limburgia that I won't be able to taste the piece of Danish Blue I intended to eat, what the hell is being discussed and why does it matter?

[turok124]

i don't think it really matters what feats, spells, and powers the thralls and believers have since he could just use Psychic Reformation in his fused form to change them all to whatever he wants....right?

[Lunaramblings]

i don't think it really matters what feats, spells, and powers the thralls and believers have since he could just use Psychic Reformation in his fused form to change them all to whatever he wants....right?

No he couldn't. He would have to change any feat he has to a feat they don't have in order to keep the slot, then he would have to reassign them again after the Fusion.

And, if he is just killing his followers that aren't exactly what he wants, then he is certainly going to have a hard time finding more followers in short order. Further, why would anyone want to give up their existence to become an apparently permanent piece of Azrael? I am sorry, I just can not see why this would be the goal of anyone. Especially a Cleric, who has devoted himself to a God or Cause for his entire life, only then to abandon it, just to become a piece of this entity. Really, it does not make sense in a RP sense. Similar for a Wizard or Psion. It really does not make sense for them to willingly pretty much cease to exist for all intents and purposes.

[Archmage Joda]

In all fairness, Azrael also uses thrallherd, which has its own special leadership rules and fluff, to the tune of they come to him 24 hrs later regardless of what he did to the previous ones, and are compelled to come on a subconscious level that overrides things like that.

[Lunaramblings]

Also, how does Azrael know which feats his would be thralls have? Also, it says his thralls arrive to serve, not be completely erased and consumed by the Thrallherd. To me this is a key difference. Willingness to serve is fine, but willingness to be consumed is another. It is one of the points that makes this TO. Between the power level, the fact that it makes just about any party member useless, and the fact that it is assuming only the precise mix that it wants, and the fact that there are RP issues with how you convince your Thralls/Believers to allow you to pretty much permanently absorb them, this is TO, as in the only definition that existed before this thread, and both definitions the OP has given.

[Archmage Joda]

Willing servants -> willing targets of powers ->Willing targets of fusion. But aside from this, I don't really disagree with anything else in that paragraph, like the part where Azrael is TO, so now it is time for me to fade back into obscurity.

[Azrael]

If you'll read my posts I never said he wasn't TO, he's just not the type of TO that makes him completely unplayable. Sure, playing him would be essentially pointless since he can do virtually anything, but he is nonetheless playable. Compare this to a char that pretty much solely relies on constantly being on another plane of existence (one that likely has a different time stream), CoPing every challeng (which makes it impossibl for any dm to adjudicate) and sending his astral projection out to do everything.

Yes, azrael is capable of these things but he doesn't rely on them as the primary source of his power. Thus, if you take those (what I call) "type 2" elements away from most characters then Azrael really begins to shine.

Yes, you could make the argument that if you take certain choice elements away from any game and leave other choice elements in then any given character can benefit. However I'm not attempting to define those elements, only suggest which classifications certain things should fall under. Which is why I want other opinions on type 1 and type 2 material.