Author Topic: Azrael  (Read 39526 times)

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KellKheraptis

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #160 on: September 26, 2010, 07:26:51 PM »
Bear in mind any sort of CoP contest is an auto-stalemate, as it is time-dependent.  Whether the HIVE can do so more efficiently is a moot point when both HIVE and Az have infinite time available to them.  Also, whether the wish transit is a teleportation or not, it physically dumps them well within range of Az's anticipate teleport, which IIRC spells out all forms of "poof, I'm here" and delays it.  And even if it doesn't, contingent irresistable telekinesis ensures they're shoved out of range of true sight, assuming he doesn't simply set the contingency to something more unpleasant to small component synergetic creatures.  Like CL N irresistable circle of death/reserves of strength NI damage blast.

Your stalemate with the HIVE, at least initially, comes from having N actions at N+1 initiative count, effectively the same as an Ardent 10 with Dominant Ideal and mantle shuffle.  Again, while he doesn't auto-win (same reason for stalemate as a Wizard, as a fully closed demiplane is just that, untouchable), he won't auto-lose either.  And unless HIVE has a respawn plan, eventually Az would get around to picking it apart at its components.

And no, touchsight looks right past Darkstalker.  In fact, touchsight has nothing at all to do with sight, and is in fact telekinetic touch at a distance.  He's literally fingering the surrounding space, and the surrounding space in all coterminous planes, with his mind.  There have been threads about this, and thus far to my knowledge, nothing can bypass transdimensional touchsight.  It is the bane of sneaky types, and they just have to deal with it (or use White Raven maneuvers and pray their target isn't immune, which Az is).
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Re: Azrael
« Reply #161 on: September 26, 2010, 07:40:28 PM »
Bear in mind any sort of CoP contest is an auto-stalemate, as it is time-dependent.  Whether the HIVE can do so more efficiently is a moot point when both HIVE and Az have infinite time available to them.  Also, whether the wish transit is a teleportation or not, it physically dumps them well within range of Az's anticipate teleport, which IIRC spells out all forms of "poof, I'm here" and delays it.  And even if it doesn't, contingent irresistable telekinesis ensures they're shoved out of range of true sight, assuming he doesn't simply set the contingency to something more unpleasant to small component synergetic creatures.  Like CL N irresistable circle of death/reserves of strength NI damage blast.

Your stalemate with the HIVE, at least initially, comes from having N actions at N+1 initiative count, effectively the same as an Ardent 10 with Dominant Ideal and mantle shuffle.  Again, while he doesn't auto-win (same reason for stalemate as a Wizard, as a fully closed demiplane is just that, untouchable), he won't auto-lose either.  And unless HIVE has a respawn plan, eventually Az would get around to picking it apart at its components.

And no, touchsight looks right past Darkstalker.  In fact, touchsight has nothing at all to do with sight, and is in fact telekinetic touch at a distance.  He's literally fingering the surrounding space, and the surrounding space in all coterminous planes, with his mind.  There have been threads about this, and thus far to my knowledge, nothing can bypass transdimensional touchsight.  It is the bane of sneaky types, and they just have to deal with it (or use White Raven maneuvers and pray their target isn't immune, which Az is).

Nothing stops the attacker from teleporting in outside the range of anticipate teleport. Nothing stops them from arriving while timestopped and having actions even before they can be perceived.

I will concede that it is very possible to build a demiplane which cannot be effectively attacked or invaded, however anyone with Genesis can do that. It would come down to a battle of Astrally projected characters, attacking each other within altered time-streams, one kills the other with a superior number of actions, then they immediately return to life on their own demiplane. By this logic, just about ANY Caster level 18+ (to include sorcerers) is unkillable, or close to it.

I am not trying to argue that Azrael is weak, he isn't. He simply isn't the unbeatable, kill all, haha I win, God that the OP clearly imagines him to be. That said. Kell, you make a much more convincing and well reasoned argument than he. Thank you.
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Bauglir

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #162 on: September 26, 2010, 07:42:59 PM »
I did look up anticipate teleport for that, yes, and it does only affect spells with the [Teleportation] descriptor. That's why I had to use Wish, specifically, because it's the only spell I can think of that does that and doesn't have that descriptor. First off, are we establishing that his one use of contingency is to defend against Wishporting? Remember, Craft Contingent Spell only has rules for triggering on something that affects you, not your immediate area. And bear in mind, telekinesis can't smack enough targets to repel, let's say, 4500 of the units of the HIVE, so yeah, you will need one of those blasts to do it. Of course, it's simple enough for the HIVE to realize what happened and simply send in a second wave within the same round, before Azrael can put up a second contingency to accomplish the same effect. Or simply to send in a bunch of swarms one after the other via readied actions.

And the HIVE's respawn plan only needs to consist of seeding billions of portions of itself across the multiverse and having them create their own HIVEs. Or mind-raping a psion long enough to Fuse with it and then mind-seed some suckers. I think, anyway, that's not exactly the issue I'm most concerned with. Anyway, I do admit that bringing in TO like the HIVE is kinda silly; Azrael certainly can obliterate any character likely to see play, ever.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

KellKheraptis

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #163 on: September 26, 2010, 07:45:44 PM »
Let's do one better.  This requires no contingency, by the way...Metamagic Effect a Maw of Chaos at NI CL.  Now start Widening to taste.  So much for getting close to him...

Bear in mind any sort of CoP contest is an auto-stalemate, as it is time-dependent.  Whether the HIVE can do so more efficiently is a moot point when both HIVE and Az have infinite time available to them.  Also, whether the wish transit is a teleportation or not, it physically dumps them well within range of Az's anticipate teleport, which IIRC spells out all forms of "poof, I'm here" and delays it.  And even if it doesn't, contingent irresistable telekinesis ensures they're shoved out of range of true sight, assuming he doesn't simply set the contingency to something more unpleasant to small component synergetic creatures.  Like CL N irresistable circle of death/reserves of strength NI damage blast.

Your stalemate with the HIVE, at least initially, comes from having N actions at N+1 initiative count, effectively the same as an Ardent 10 with Dominant Ideal and mantle shuffle.  Again, while he doesn't auto-win (same reason for stalemate as a Wizard, as a fully closed demiplane is just that, untouchable), he won't auto-lose either.  And unless HIVE has a respawn plan, eventually Az would get around to picking it apart at its components.

And no, touchsight looks right past Darkstalker.  In fact, touchsight has nothing at all to do with sight, and is in fact telekinetic touch at a distance.  He's literally fingering the surrounding space, and the surrounding space in all coterminous planes, with his mind.  There have been threads about this, and thus far to my knowledge, nothing can bypass transdimensional touchsight.  It is the bane of sneaky types, and they just have to deal with it (or use White Raven maneuvers and pray their target isn't immune, which Az is).

Nothing stops the attacker from teleporting in outside the range of anticipate teleport. Nothing stops them from arriving while timestopped and having actions even before they can be perceived.

I will concede that it is very possible to build a demiplane which cannot be effectively attacked or invaded, however anyone with Genesis can do that. It would come down to a battle of Astrally projected characters, attacking each other within altered time-streams, one kills the other with a superior number of actions, then they immediately return to life on their own demiplane. By this logic, just about ANY Caster level 18+ (to include sorcerers) is unkillable, or close to it.

I am not trying to argue that Azrael is weak, he isn't. He simply isn't the unbeatable, kill all, haha I win, God that the OP clearly imagines him to be. That said. Kell, you make a much more convincing and well reasoned argument than he. Thank you.

Sorry, missed this one when I posted :P  Azrael never said his iconic was undefeatable, but he effectively is.  Any number of builds can stalemate him, that's easy.  But nothing per se can ultimately kill him, and in 3.5 achieving that status is frighteningly easy.  Also, the way he goes about it leaves a LOT of room for offensive power, giving him a leg up on the competition.  He is similar to the HIVE in a lot of ways, drawing from within instead of without, and using open-ended spells and powers to match their more ridiculous abilities.  And remember, each member of his fusion can also have a contingency active upon their person, and a number of contingent crafts up to the limit of that feat.  Combine with the usual "I fuck with time" routine, and it's effectively no more effective than having only the usual limit, which is most likely why he didn't bother to mention it.  Between his immunity to surprise and ability to always act under any circumstance, the best you can hope to do bringing infinite actions to bear on him is match his infinite actions.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 07:56:00 PM by KellKheraptis »
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fallen-angle

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #164 on: September 26, 2010, 08:10:50 PM »
That is all you can hope for in any fight where infinite immediate actions are present.

H.I.V.E. still outruns him though. Vastly more contingencies, celerities, and actions in general. Which is what a battle of perfect preparation comes down to.
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KellKheraptis

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #165 on: September 26, 2010, 08:16:33 PM »
That is all you can hope for in any fight where infinite immediate actions are present.

H.I.V.E. still outruns him though. Vastly more contingencies, celerities, and actions in general. Which is what a battle of perfect preparation comes down to.

Infinte+1=Infinite.  Time means nothing to infinity.  You have to free yourself from linear action economy.  This is a battle of titans, those who ignore the simple "first you go, then Bob goes" traditional way of resolving actions.  After the grand shuffle of celerities/anticipatory strikes and the action chains they each spawn whilst within arbitrary time streams, the net result is null set.  Stalemate.  H.I.V.E. merely has more components, which is again arbitrary on both ends, as Azrael can quite easily add a H.I.V.E. as an afterthought to his contingent of thralls.  I'm contemplating posting (well...finishing first) Kell, complete with mythal at level 20 and an in-built H.I.V.E. just to illustrate the point.
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Bauglir

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #166 on: September 26, 2010, 08:21:04 PM »
I mean, you can try, but I'm perfectly confident there's no possible way to beat this char.

Just pointing out that he DID say Azrael is undefeatable. Honestly, the only reason I'm in this thread is hubris; Azrael is an absurdly powerful character, but he doesn't do anything original. He just combines all the other tricks that high level Wizards do with a trick that a high level Psion does, and then throws in some 3rd party stuff (Irresistable Spell, unless someone can tell me why the book is a legitimate source) and misread Fusion to give multiples of feats (Azrael doesn't have as many spell slots as he thinks he does, among other things). Also, since a fused being is only one being, it cannot have multiple contingencies (or other effects that a creature can only have one of).

I'd not be posting in this thread nearly as much if Azrael (the poster) had shown any degree of modesty at all, shown some original thought in creating the build, not talked his build in the manner of a stereotypical (that's an important word, by the way) nerd arguing that Sephiroth could totally beat Goku in a fight, or had any sort of reputation as somebody who builds silly-powerful, complicated characters abusing poorly thought out rules (like your uses of Circle Magic, Kell). As it is, the OP sounded like somebody saying, "I'm the bestest optimizer EVAR". And while he's certainly good (and seriously, kudos on just doing the grunt work necessary to put Azrael (here the character) together, that's a lot of books to check), it seems like he cares too much about his e-peen, which is unfortunate because, no matter how big it is, it never built a Star Destroyer (I may be using Tsuyo as a reference too much, but he's become synonymous with absurdly amazing charop stuff in my mind).
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

fallen-angle

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #167 on: September 26, 2010, 08:26:51 PM »
^

Second That.
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Re: Azrael
« Reply #168 on: September 26, 2010, 08:28:58 PM »
[...] Sephiroth could totally beat Goku in a fight
Pre- or post-One Winged Angel? :p
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #169 on: September 26, 2010, 08:30:20 PM »
(Irresistable Spell, unless someone can tell me why the book is a legitimate source)
It's officially licensed by WotC.  It's just like ravenloft or dragon magazine.

That said, the fact that it's 3.0 (where metamagic operated under different assumpetions) and, IIRC, the unlicensed conversion to 3.5 removed the feat makes it rather difficult to argue about irresistible spell as a serious optimization tool any more than using 4e stuff does under ADMG's "best errata ever"
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Re: Azrael
« Reply #170 on: September 26, 2010, 08:32:26 PM »
The H.I.V.E. Spawn/Respawn plan:

I actually didn't think with enough foresight when it comes to the second-iteration H.I.V.E., and also mis-calculated the actual number of vermin.  Here's how the actions break down:

Evil bastard Druid 9 casts Insect Plague and uses Dark Speech to bind it into a hivemind, creating the first-iteration H.I.V.E. (4,500 vermin members).
One member of the first-iteration H.I.V.E. wishes a Scroll of Genesis into existence.
One member of the first-iteration H.I.V.E. uses the Scroll of Genesis to create a demiplane for the rest to retreat to.
500 members of the first-iteration H.I.V.E. cast Plane Shift to send the entire first-iteration H.I.V.E. into the demiplane.
14 members of the first-iteration H.I.V.E. wish Staves of Swarming Insects into existence.
224 members of the first-iteration H.I.V.E. UMD the staves in turn, summoning 672 locust swarms into existence.
One member of the first-iteration H.I.V.E. uses Dark Speech to bind all 675 locust swarms into the second-iteration H.I.V.E. (1,012,500 vermin members, only 741 of which have taken actions this turn).

The second-iteration H.I.V.E. has a charisma of 20,254, giving it a total of 2,535 9th-level spells.  Since this is a brand-new consciousness, these spells are all ready to go.
2,535 members of the second-iteration H.I.V.E. wish Staves of Swarming Insects into existence.
40,560 members of the second-iteration H.I.V.E. UMD the staves in turn, summoning 121,680 locust swarms into existence.
One member of the second-iteration H.I.V.E. uses Dark Speech to bind all of the 122,355 locust swarms present into the third-iteration H.I.V.E. (183,532,500 vermin members, only 43,837 of which have taken actions this turn).

The third-iteration H.I.V.E. has a charisma of 3,670,654, giving it a total of 458,835 9th-level spells.  Since this is again a brand-new consciousness, these spells are all ready to go.
458,835 members of the third-iteration H.I.V.E. wish Staves of Swarming Insects into existence.
7,341,360 members of the third-iteration H.I.V.E. UMD the staves in turn, summoning 22,024,080 locust swarms into existence.
One member of the third-iteration H.I.V.E. uses Dark Speech to bind all of the 22,146,435 locust swarms present into the fourth-iteration H.I.V.E. (33,219,652,500 vermin members, only 7,385,197 of which have taken actions this turn).

The fourth-iteration H.I.V.E. has an intelligence of 664,393,054 and charisma of 664,393,054.  It has a caster level of 664,393,036, 83,049,133 9th-level spells, and approximately 11 billion BILLION (1.1 * 10^19) 8th-level spells.  It also has 33,212,267,303 standard actions with an additional 33,219,652,500 swift actions available on the turn it was created.  If, at any point, the fourth-iteration H.I.V.E. is threatened, it has more than enough spells and actions available to Plane Shift back to it's demiplane and create the fifth-iteration H.I.V.E., which is so massive and powerful that the standard calculator I've been using to make this post can't count that high.  And yet, if somehow the fifth-iteration H.I.V.E. was threatened, it, too, would have sufficient resources to retreat and create the sixth-iteration H.I.V.E., and so on, and so fourth, until it had enough resources to overpower everything in the cosmos.

In other words, the instant someone uses Dark Speech to create a Hivemind capable of casting 2 9th-level spells, the entire cosmos is conquered by H.I.V.E..  Azrael is a peasant by comparison.

Also, note that Azrael is the only one putting his character up there with the TO builds.  We all know better, and hopefully, with this, Azrael will, too.

KellKheraptis

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #171 on: September 26, 2010, 08:42:55 PM »
Also, bear in mind that all of this can be replicated by my Red Wizard at a moment's notice via the wonders that are Sims ;)  And unlike the true H.I.V.E. builds, they will never rebel against me :D
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Azrael

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #172 on: September 27, 2010, 06:32:12 PM »
Ok, now to try and answer all of these, err most of them anyway…
1. They get there via Wish, which I assumed you'd pick up from my later mention of it. So saying they can't get there doesn't really work.
3. Could you explain your contingency? The only rules that exist are for things that happen to you, so you couldn't word it on something like a creature appearing near you unless you want to leave the realm of strict RAW and argue that the word "usually" in craft contingent spell lets you do other things. Alternatively, if you're using the spell "contingency", then that's fine, although you can only have one and I'm not sure what it would be (remember, 6th level spell at most; what is this contingency going to do, exactly?), and I'm going to grant that "Uses Wish to transport to somewhere within 200 feet of me" probably isn't too convoluted. Alternatively, if you just meant the general sense of "contingency", could you describe in more detail what you mean?
Do I have to explain my contingency, it should be something like “if anyone uses the spell wish or miracle (or an ability which emulates such a spell) to transport themselves anywhere within 2 miles of me cast timestop”…I don’t see how that wouldn’t work…as you said yourself.
Also, I can, and do use my normal contingency to cast 9th level spells because its 1/3 of your caster level…my caster level is over 2000, which means I can easily get a 9th level spell.
4. Could you explain to me why Kingdoms of Kalamar (EDIT: And yes, I'm looking at the Player's Guide) is legit? It's a 3.0 3rd party sourcebook that, as far as I can tell from the information on its Table of Contents page, was only published under the OGL license (like all 3rd party sourcebooks). I might be missing something, though.
Actually the Kingdoms of Kalimar has a 3.5 update booklet (which changes very little and certainly doesn’t change irresistible spell) thus making it 3.5 legal…and since when don’t people use 3.0 stuff that hasn’t been updated on this board? I seem to recall a whole shit load of Oriental Adventures stuff being used.
Quote
Are you trying to make me look like the bad guy by citing things that don't exist?...please, by all means, do quote the section where I directly insulted you.

(please do pay attention)...what a stupid argument... shows how much you know...

And that's only the explicit stuff (mind, I don't buy that "I didn't directly insult you" bullshit that everyone under the age of 10 uses, and if the fact that I'm pointing out your complete inability to construct a rational argument seems like a personal attack, well, I'm not DIRECTLY insulting you, right?). I'm not arguing that your character isn't powerful; he is. I'm arguing that he CAN be defeated by legal builds, and you're just moving the goalposts in an attempt to hide your original overblown statements. I like the stealth edits to your post, by the way. And congratulations on the "I'm leaving, this argument isn't worth my time" approach.
You can choose to take it as an insult but I was just attempting to make a matter-of-fact statement…now an insult would be if I called you a douchebag or something.
Uhm, no, you're wrong, actually. Theoretical refers to optimization that would never see use in an actual game; just as you never see a character actually playing Pun-Pun, you'll never see somebody playing Azrael. Shows how much you know.
The word hypocrite comes to mind…

Speaking of which, and I would like to go on the record as having said this on multiple occasions…I like it how when I bring in a certain build all people ever seem to do is try and tear it down (save for Kell) yet when people like Kahn made Pun-Pun all people tried to do was help him make it more powerful…and trust me, Pun-Pun DOESN’T all come from Kahn himself. Several people assisted him in finalizing the build…so far I can take full credit for Azrael and all the ingenuity that went into creating him…but I’m only one man…I’m sure if I haven’t thought of a way (and I’m pretty sure that last wish contingency finalizes it) to beat H.I.V.E. someone can think up a way for Azrael to do it.

Ok, a few things.

1) You still have not answered how you are getting that many creatures crammed into 30ft around you. I can concede that you can get a pretty large number, but I don't think as large as you are claiming.
I’m pretty sure everyone else is aware of this already but ill answer it anyway…Consumptive field has a duration…he can just walk around a forest and every little forest animal with less than 9 hp (which is a lot) will just drop dead. It doesn’t have to occur all at once.
2) This can only raise your CL by up to 1/2 your original CL. That means that at best you get CL 30.
Your original CL would be your starting CL when you cast the spell, you cast one spell, you get 30, you cast the second and your original CL is now 30 so you get 45…etc. This isn’t even my idea, I read this a long time ago on the boards…might have been Twice Betrayer or something.
3) You also do not get a feat slot if they have a duplicate feat to the person they are being fused to. It says that if both have a feat, then you only get the feat once.
Well, one could argue that stacking feats, such as extra turning, you would gain multiple times, since any character can have as many of them as he wants…but he can just switch around his feats with psy ref so that none of them match any of the feats of the person hes about to absorb, he absorbs them, then afterwards changes his feats to whatever he wants with psy ref.
4) Use of several different campaign settings certainly seems to border on TO to me, especially when one of them is 3.0 and 3rd party.
As if we haven’t seen feats from different campaign settings mixed before…and Kingdoms of Kalimar is not 3rd party…notice the official D&D seal on the top of the book…that means its official baby…now a book like swords and sorcery, or hyperconscious is 3rd party because It lacks that seal…but people seem to use them anyway (at least hyperconscious).
5) Also, from the MIC:
 Some body slots are described as a matched pair of body parts
(such as arms, feet, or hands). If an item uses one of these body
slots, it takes up both “halves” of the body slot even if worn on
only one of the pair. For example, a glove of storing takes up the
entire hands body slot, even though it’s only one glove.
Similarly,
items that come in pairs must be worn together in order to function—
wearing a single gauntlet of ogre power has no effect.
Ok, I guess I’ll have to get rid of one of his casting gloves…no big deal.
Bear in mind any sort of CoP contest is an auto-stalemate, as it is time-dependent.  Whether the HIVE can do so more efficiently is a moot point when both HIVE and Az have infinite time available to them.  Also, whether the wish transit is a teleportation or not, it physically dumps them well within range of Az's anticipate teleport, which IIRC spells out all forms of "poof, I'm here" and delays it.  And even if it doesn't, contingent irresistable telekinesis ensures they're shoved out of range of true sight, assuming he doesn't simply set the contingency to something more unpleasant to small component synergetic creatures.  Like CL N irresistable circle of death/reserves of strength NI damage blast.

Your stalemate with the HIVE, at least initially, comes from having N actions at N+1 initiative count, effectively the same as an Ardent 10 with Dominant Ideal and mantle shuffle.  Again, while he doesn't auto-win (same reason for stalemate as a Wizard, as a fully closed demiplane is just that, untouchable), he won't auto-lose either.  And unless HIVE has a respawn plan, eventually Az would get around to picking it apart at its components.

And no, touchsight looks right past Darkstalker.  In fact, touchsight has nothing at all to do with sight, and is in fact telekinetic touch at a distance.  He's literally fingering the surrounding space, and the surrounding space in all coterminous planes, with his mind.  There have been threads about this, and thus far to my knowledge, nothing can bypass transdimensional touchsight.  It is the bane of sneaky types, and they just have to deal with it (or use White Raven maneuvers and pray their target isn't immune, which Az is).

Thank you Kell, at least one person is helping me out…good idea on the telekinesis btw

Also, I think you guys forgot to mention…and this one is important so im gonna bold it. Unless all members of hive can share a single spell with all members of H.I.V.E. then only ONE member can approach me using timestop…and I highly doubt one member can defeat me lol.

Therefore, with my new contingencies no one, let alone H.I.V.E. can approach Azrael without him knowing about it…game,set, match…guess it’s another stalemate…

I will concede that it is very possible to build a demiplane which cannot be effectively attacked or invaded, however anyone with Genesis can do that. It would come down to a battle of Astrally projected characters, attacking each other within altered time-streams, one kills the other with a superior number of actions, then they immediately return to life on their own demiplane. By this logic, just about ANY Caster level 18+ (to include sorcerers) is unkillable, or close to it.
Exactly, which basically proves I win…as long as I can make a demiplane no one else can access I will always auto-revive, find out what will kill me, and gain infinite actions and go defeat them. Unless H.I.V.E. does have an auto-revive contingency like mine…I win.
I am not trying to argue that Azrael is weak, he isn't. He simply isn't the unbeatable, kill all, haha I win, God that the OP clearly imagines him to be. That said. Kell, you make a much more convincing and well reasoned argument than he. Thank you.
You mean like the argument that turned you into an ice penguin…or basically disproved everything else you said up until now (see time stop argument; though I could be wrong if H.I.V.E. can indeed share a single spell with all members).

And the HIVE's respawn plan only needs to consist of seeding billions of portions of itself across the multiverse and having them create their own HIVEs. Or mind-raping a psion long enough to Fuse with it and then mind-seed some suckers

And why can’t Azrael find out about these and kill them off?

Let's do one better.  This requires no contingency, by the way...Metamagic Effect a Maw of Chaos at NI CL.  Now start Widening to taste.  So much for getting close to him...

Sorry, missed this one when I posted :P  Azrael never said his iconic was undefeatable, but he effectively is.  Any number of builds can stalemate him, that's easy.  But nothing per se can ultimately kill him, and in 3.5 achieving that status is frighteningly easy.  Also, the way he goes about it leaves a LOT of room for offensive power, giving him a leg up on the competition.  He is similar to the HIVE in a lot of ways, drawing from within instead of without, and using open-ended spells and powers to match their more ridiculous abilities.  And remember, each member of his fusion can also have a contingency active upon their person, and a number of contingent crafts up to the limit of that feat.  Combine with the usual "I fuck with time" routine, and it's effectively no more effective than having only the usual limit, which is most likely why he didn't bother to mention it.  Between his immunity to surprise and ability to always act under any circumstance, the best you can hope to do bringing infinite actions to bear on him is match his infinite actions.

So, wait…where do I put it….is it just….everywhere? Also, people with favor of the martyr (which I’m sure H.I.V.E. has) would be immune to the daze.

Again, thanks for explaining the ways he is actually better than a normal 20th level wiz…didn’t think about the everyone having a contingency…though they would all have to be able to cast it themselves…and most cannot…However, I can have 2053 contingencies on myself if I thought I needed them…I didn’t think I would.


Just pointing out that he DID say Azrael is undefeatable. Honestly, the only reason I'm in this thread is hubris; Azrael is an absurdly powerful character, but he doesn't do anything original. He just combines all the other tricks that high level Wizards do with a trick that a high level Psion does, and then throws in some 3rd party stuff (Irresistable Spell, unless someone can tell me why the book is a legitimate source) and misread Fusion to give multiples of feats (Azrael doesn't have as many spell slots as he thinks he does, among other things). Also, since a fused being is only one being, it cannot have multiple contingencies (or other effects that a creature can only have one of).
Again, NOT 3rd PARTY, HAS OFFICIAL SEAL, didn’t misread fusion (see above), and CAN have multiple contingencies since craft contingent spell is based off CL and he has unlimited money from supernatural wish…and you’re saying the stuff I say is unfounded…you didn’t even read Craft Contingent Spell.
 
I'd not be posting in this thread nearly as much if Azrael (the poster) had shown any degree of modesty at all, shown some original thought in creating the build, not talked his build in the manner of a stereotypical (that's an important word, by the way) nerd arguing that Sephiroth could totally beat Goku in a fight, or had any sort of reputation as somebody who builds silly-powerful, complicated characters abusing poorly thought out rules (like your uses of Circle Magic, Kell). As it is, the OP sounded like somebody saying, "I'm the bestest optimizer EVAR". And while he's certainly good (and seriously, kudos on just doing the grunt work necessary to put Azrael (here the character) together, that's a lot of books to check), it seems like he cares too much about his e-peen, which is unfortunate because, no matter how big it is, it never built a Star Destroyer (I may be using Tsuyo as a reference too much, but he's become synonymous with absurdly amazing charop stuff in my mind).
Oh, I was modest…that is before Fallen Angle thought he could defeat me with a pathetic artificer and have the Hubris do then insinuate his artificer could then defeat Pun-Pun…that’s when I started…if you’ll notice, all the posts before then were quite humble.

P.S. Never played ff7, and I hate DBZ…yeah…I’m the stereotype…I much prefer a good anime…like Death Note…you know, something with a plot…ill bold this one for emphasis For someone that claimed I was making childish insults (which I wasn’t, imo) you sure are one large hypocrite…and I would much rather be a stereotypical nerd than a hypocrite :D If I really did care about my ‘e peen’ as much as you claim I do, do you think I would stick around this board all day and post post post… No, it’s called…oh what is it…oh yeah A LIFE…I have one you know…

P.P.S. Also, I like how the only chars you can come up with that can 'supposedly' defeat Azrael are among the most popular CO chars of all time...so what does that make Azrael...3rd...4th...? And you say he doesn't belong...pfffft.


And a special thanks to Kell for all his support.


Btw, this will be the last post I make for the day, I have better things to do with my time, like go to the Sephiroth vs Goku convention downtown with all my nerdy friends, I hear its going to be quite a debate :D




« Last Edit: September 27, 2010, 06:43:59 PM by Azrael »

fallen-angle

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #173 on: September 27, 2010, 07:15:46 PM »
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For fucks sake, no it doesn't. If YOU can have an unassailable, invincible demiplane. OTHER PEOPLE CAN HAVE ONE TOO. That means you cannot reach them. Same way they can't reach you. I've said this several times now: Nothing Azrael does is completely unique to him. COP, Genisis, Contingencies. Other casters will have these and can use them in exactly the same way.

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No. I mean that Kell's arguments are well worded, well reasoned and free of personal attack. Yours are haphazard and angry, they often work on the assumption that your opponent is poorly prepared, or that you have some special feature which no one else can use. Moreover they are patronizing and disrespectful, if you honestly wanted to make this character all he could be you should respond calmly, courteously. Currently the only reason anyone is debating you is because you've gone about it in a trollish fashion.

Look, it is obvious from your name that Azrael is your "special character". Most players have one, nothing wrong with that. However, Azrael is the result of grabbing several well known characters and tricks. Then using fusion to put them into one character. It would be like saying you made Superman-Goku-Sephiroth and it is therefore totally original. You cannot reasonably begin to claim that you are the sole source of all this "ingenuity" that would be an insult to all the people on these boards who do good work and engage is civil debate. People who took the time to dig through legions of books and reason out elaborate tricks, so others don't have to. Did you, without prompt from other creations on these and other forums, go an personally discover all those tricks? No, we all know you didn't. You borrowed, like everyone borrows.

P.S. You were increasingly less civil over the course of this discussion, starting mostly (and rather understandably) with the Dying Curse argument. The Artificer was meant to start debate about the original character, as the thread was rapidly getting more onto the topic of dying curses and COP. Good god people should stop debating COP.

Please don't bother to respond to this. I won't read it. I am done with this.
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Bauglir

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #174 on: September 27, 2010, 08:15:01 PM »
1. They get there via Wish, which I assumed you'd pick up from my later mention of it. So saying they can't get there doesn't really work.
3. Could you explain your contingency? The only rules that exist are for things that happen to you, so you couldn't word it on something like a creature appearing near you unless you want to leave the realm of strict RAW and argue that the word "usually" in craft contingent spell lets you do other things. Alternatively, if you're using the spell "contingency", then that's fine, although you can only have one and I'm not sure what it would be (remember, 6th level spell at most; what is this contingency going to do, exactly?), and I'm going to grant that "Uses Wish to transport to somewhere within 200 feet of me" probably isn't too convoluted. Alternatively, if you just meant the general sense of "contingency", could you describe in more detail what you mean?

No, you can't, the spell explicitly says "(Maximum 6th level)".

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4. Could you explain to me why Kingdoms of Kalamar (EDIT: And yes, I'm looking at the Player's Guide) is legit? It's a 3.0 3rd party sourcebook that, as far as I can tell from the information on its Table of Contents page, was only published under the OGL license (like all 3rd party sourcebooks). I might be missing something, though.

Yeah, I didn't know it was licensed. The update booklet is irrelevant, but if it's licensed (I'm not sure where to find that, but hey, if it's the general opinion of the boards, I'll buy that) that's fine.

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Are you trying to make me look like the bad guy by citing things that don't exist?...please, by all means, do quote the section where I directly insulted you.

(please do pay attention)...what a stupid argument... shows how much you know...

And that's only the explicit stuff (mind, I don't buy that "I didn't directly insult you" bullshit that everyone under the age of 10 uses, and if the fact that I'm pointing out your complete inability to construct a rational argument seems like a personal attack, well, I'm not DIRECTLY insulting you, right?). I'm not arguing that your character isn't powerful; he is. I'm arguing that he CAN be defeated by legal builds, and you're just moving the goalposts in an attempt to hide your original overblown statements. I like the stealth edits to your post, by the way. And congratulations on the "I'm leaving, this argument isn't worth my time" approach.
Uhm, no, you're wrong, actually. Theoretical refers to optimization that would never see use in an actual game; just as you never see a character actually playing Pun-Pun, you'll never see somebody playing Azrael. Shows how much you know.

Yeah, no. Quite frankly those are as much insults as anything I've said; aside from my last post about hubris, the only "insults" I've made were repeating the very same things you said to me, as a way of making clear to you that they are, in fact, insults. The fact that you consider me a hypocrite for doing that is all the proof I need to know that you do, on some level, recognize that, and simply refuse to admit it because you're incapable of recognizing that conceding a single point doesn't condemn your entire argument to failure, even when that point actually has nothing to do with your build.

Now, that said, I have directly insulted you. You could call me a hypocrite for that. But the fact is, I haven't done that in an attempt to discredit Azrael as a powerful character, while you HAVE insulted me in an attempt to distract from the fact that he's not the MOST powerful. Again, let me repeat, he is EXTREMELY powerful. The work done to put him together must have been a ridiculous undertaking. But the act of creating him didn't require any original thought; he's just proof that Leadership, Fusion, and Genesis are broken as fuck, with a bunch of ever so slightly less broken additional things tacked on because that's one of the reasons Leadership is broken. These are things we already knew. You're due credit for putting together conclusive proof of that, but you're not due credit as a legendary optimizer. You're not due anything more than a "Oh, hey, nice job." Which is what you'd have gotten if you didn't start this thread out as a challenge and continued posting like every attempt to fulfil the challenge that YOU proclaimed was an assault on your pride.

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Ok, you know what? When Khan put up Pun-Pun, he didn't say, "This is the most powerful character ever, he's so much better than all your builds, just TRY and take him down and I'll tell you why you can't." He said, "This is the most powerful character ever! What do you guys think?" That's the key, here. And when people DID try to tear down Pun-Pun, which they certainly did, he (and others) calmly explained WHY the trick worked, and why the opinions of people who disagreed were (often perfectly reasonable) houserules. He did NOT make it a matter of his own pride, which you have, and THAT is why people are trying to tear your build down. It's ENTIRELY an attitude problem. I don't know if you noticed, but I started out in this thread pretty neutral, and in fact assumed Azrael to be nearly invincible, but your behavior towards the challengers has convinced me that you do NOT deserve my respect.

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Yeah, ok, except they CAN approach you because each one will just ready its Time Stop approach to begin after another member, so that the first one gets obliterated by your contingencies and the next is fine. I've not got a way around Kell's Maw of Chaos, though, I'll need to give that one some thought later. Got grad school apps to write, so I don't have time to go book diving today.

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I will concede that it is very possible to build a demiplane which cannot be effectively attacked or invaded, however anyone with Genesis can do that. It would come down to a battle of Astrally projected characters, attacking each other within altered time-streams, one kills the other with a superior number of actions, then they immediately return to life on their own demiplane. By this logic, just about ANY Caster level 18+ (to include sorcerers) is unkillable, or close to it.
I am not trying to argue that Azrael is weak, he isn't. He simply isn't the unbeatable, kill all, haha I win, God that the OP clearly imagines him to be. That said. Kell, you make a much more convincing and well reasoned argument than he. Thank you.

Uhm, no, you just can't argue. Even if you're right, your argumentative technique is pretty shitty. That's all he meant. Incidentally, your demiplane isn't unassailable since Wish bypasses any defenses you have set up to keep people out, and they can approach via essentially instantaneous (not really, but it all happens one after another within the space of a single round with no interruptions possible except readied actions contingent on their arrival or something) readied action Time Stop Wishporting.

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And the HIVE's respawn plan only needs to consist of seeding billions of portions of itself across the multiverse and having them create their own HIVEs. Or mind-raping a psion long enough to Fuse with it and then mind-seed some suckers

Because they're protected by the H.I.V.E in the same manner as the H.I.V.E itself?

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Let's do one better.  This requires no contingency, by the way...Metamagic Effect a Maw of Chaos at NI CL.  Now start Widening to taste.  So much for getting close to him...

Sorry, missed this one when I posted :P  Azrael never said his iconic was undefeatable, but he effectively is.  Any number of builds can stalemate him, that's easy.  But nothing per se can ultimately kill him, and in 3.5 achieving that status is frighteningly easy.  Also, the way he goes about it leaves a LOT of room for offensive power, giving him a leg up on the competition.  He is similar to the HIVE in a lot of ways, drawing from within instead of without, and using open-ended spells and powers to match their more ridiculous abilities.  And remember, each member of his fusion can also have a contingency active upon their person, and a number of contingent crafts up to the limit of that feat.  Combine with the usual "I fuck with time" routine, and it's effectively no more effective than having only the usual limit, which is most likely why he didn't bother to mention it.  Between his immunity to surprise and ability to always act under any circumstance, the best you can hope to do bringing infinite actions to bear on him is match his infinite actions.

Actually, no you can't, because a single creature can only have a single contingency. Even if you have 2053 on your component creatures, you only get to have one active as a Fused being.

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Just pointing out that he DID say Azrael is undefeatable. Honestly, the only reason I'm in this thread is hubris; Azrael is an absurdly powerful character, but he doesn't do anything original. He just combines all the other tricks that high level Wizards do with a trick that a high level Psion does, and then throws in some 3rd party stuff (Irresistable Spell, unless someone can tell me why the book is a legitimate source) and misread Fusion to give multiples of feats (Azrael doesn't have as many spell slots as he thinks he does, among other things). Also, since a fused being is only one being, it cannot have multiple contingencies (or other effects that a creature can only have one of).
Again, NOT 3rd PARTY, HAS OFFICIAL SEAL

Allow me to quote the section on Contingent Spells!

Quote from: Complete Arcane 139
 Triggers for contingent spells are usually events that happen to the bearer of the spell, and can include death, contracting disease, exposure to a breath weapon or to energy damage, falling, exposure to poison, exposure to a dangerous environment (trapped by fire, plunged underwater, and so forth), succumbing to sleep or fear effects, gaining negative levels, or being rendered helpless, deafened, or blinded.

Now, you can argue that the open-ended nature of "usually" implies that other triggers are legitimate, but that's the exact sort of "TO" (by your original definition) that Azrael supposedly avoids! There are no rules for Contingent Spells that don't trigger on things that affect you, and that's literally all I've been saying. You must not have read Craft Contingent Spell.

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I'd not be posting in this thread nearly as much if Azrael (the poster) had shown any degree of modesty at all, shown some original thought in creating the build, not talked his build in the manner of a stereotypical (that's an important word, by the way) nerd arguing that Sephiroth could totally beat Goku in a fight, or had any sort of reputation as somebody who builds silly-powerful, complicated characters abusing poorly thought out rules (like your uses of Circle Magic, Kell). As it is, the OP sounded like somebody saying, "I'm the bestest optimizer EVAR". And while he's certainly good (and seriously, kudos on just doing the grunt work necessary to put Azrael (here the character) together, that's a lot of books to check), it seems like he cares too much about his e-peen, which is unfortunate because, no matter how big it is, it never built a Star Destroyer (I may be using Tsuyo as a reference too much, but he's become synonymous with absurdly amazing charop stuff in my mind).
Hubris

Not really. That post I quoted about you saying he couldn't be defeated? That was well before fallen-angle posted anything about an artificer.

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P.P.S. Also, I like how the only chars you can come up with that can 'supposedly' defeat Azrael are among the most popular CO chars of all time...so what does that make Azrael...3rd...4th...? And you say he doesn't belong...pfffft.

I'm not sure that my argument is what you think it is. I'm saying, "Azrael can possibly be defeated" with a side argument of "Azrael is just proof of things we already knew. Hooray." The statements about childish insults mostly refer to the fact that you use arguments like, "No, it's called... oh what is it... oh yeah A LIFE... I have one you know..." I mean, I insult you, sure, but only when it's actually relevant to my argument at the time (which is generally that you have way too high an opinion of yourself, and expect everyone else to have it too) instead of random side comments. I mean, if you think the reason ad hominem is a logical fallacy is because it hurts people's feelings, then you know as little about debate as I think you do. Plus, I don't think my insults are THAT childish. So there. (Please realize that last sentence was a joke)

EDIT: Fixed a broken quote tag and finished a barely relevant sentence I trailed off during the middle of. Also to address feat retraining: if you PsyRef those feats, then the component creatures now have identical feats which overlap rather than stacking.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2010, 11:48:44 PM by Bauglir »
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Archmage Joda

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #175 on: September 27, 2010, 11:15:36 PM »
Personally, I'm still wondering about the mad linguist's claim of destroying the entire ethereal plane and how he'd manage that. Was the Well of Worlds + Sphere of Annihilation thing the only way, or was there something else?
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KellKheraptis

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #176 on: September 27, 2010, 11:20:53 PM »
Two clarifications :

1)Nothing stopping a demiplane from moving if it's also a Stronghold >.>

2)The Maw Of Chaos would be centered on Azrael with Extraordinary Spell Aim and move with him, at an arbitrarily wide radius.

And 3)Remember Pun-pun's trick for infinite transdimensional reach?  THAT could theoretically destroy (a) plane(s), but nothing supports such.  To my knowledge, there is no support for actual eradication of an entire plane, merely decimation of all matter on it.
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Re: Azrael
« Reply #177 on: September 27, 2010, 11:31:50 PM »
Two clarifications :

1)Nothing stopping a demiplane from moving if it's also a Stronghold >.>

No rules for making a demiplane into a stronghold either.  You can make a stronghold that's in a demiplane, but I don't see any demiplanes listed under construction materials.
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Re: Azrael
« Reply #178 on: September 27, 2010, 11:54:04 PM »
Looking at Maw of Chaos, I don't think it's actually a problem.  Azrael would have to actually get an action in before H.I.V.E. would take the damage.  It would still likely have to make a Concentration check, but the DC is a pittance at this level of play, and there's no auto-fail on skill checks.

KellKheraptis

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #179 on: September 27, 2010, 11:58:42 PM »
Looking at Maw of Chaos, I don't think it's actually a problem.  Azrael would have to actually get an action in before H.I.V.E. would take the damage.  It would still likely have to make a Concentration check, but the DC is a pittance at this level of play, and there's no auto-fail on skill checks.

Read it again.  For once we don't care about dazing with it.  It's the 2000+d6 per round persistent damage at arbitrarily wide range that hoses HIVE.  Individually they are insects, as the H.I.V.E. they are powerful.  MoC targets each individually.  Buh-bye.  Oh, and even if they go in with an AMF, Az has Initiate of Mystra, so they only fuck themselves.  And he can cast it as a Supernatural Spell to prevent dispelling, then persist it with metamagic effect.
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