Author Topic: Azrael  (Read 30488 times)

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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #260 on: October 02, 2010, 06:30:46 PM »
Putting up the good fight here azrael? This thing took a lot of work...

Finally took a look at all this (for selfish reasons) and you have many references to abilities not in the mango index: Irresistible Spell (please tell its not from the license-defunct and broken kingdoms of kalamar stuff...) and spell engine are the ones I remember.

This is fusion abuse at its lengthiest. I'm confused about the continuous family domain and so forth but I probably just haven't looked hard enough (this thing needs a roadmap).

Speaking of fusion abuse where is that classic Trinity build? I don't have it in my dirty handbook fixes!
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Lunaramblings

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #261 on: October 02, 2010, 08:42:16 PM »
If you'll read my posts I never said he wasn't TO, he's just not the type of TO that makes him completely unplayable. Sure, playing him would be essentially pointless since he can do virtually anything, but he is nonetheless playable. Compare this to a char that pretty much solely relies on constantly being on another plane of existence (one that likely has a different time stream), CoPing every challeng (which makes it impossibl for any dm to adjudicate) and sending his astral projection out to do everything.

Yes, azrael is capable of these things but he doesn't rely on them as the primary source of his power. Thus, if you take those (what I call) "type 2" elements away from most characters then Azrael really begins to shine.

Yes, you could make the argument that if you take certain choice elements away from any game and leave other choice elements in then any given character can benefit. However I'm not attempting to define those elements, only suggest which classifications certain things should fall under. Which is why I want other opinions on type 1 and type 2 material.

Well, it seems that you have edited most of your posts to take out mentions, but you were actually quoted by someone back on page 9 as saying that Azrael was a Non-TO character. You have been proven wrong on that so you are moving goalposts. I get it. Your one of those guys.

Seriously, you have a nice build. But it really is just a compilation of several builds, LITERALLY Fused together. And, like I said, I think most DMs would draw a line between willing to help you with adventuring and ceasing to exist to become part of you. Most DMs would not allow Fusion abuse like this. Hence the entirety of the build is TO as without that Fusion you have nothing particularly special. Despite your effort to Stealth edit your statements throughout this thread, this is something that 5 days ago you claimed was not the case.

Azrael

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #262 on: October 03, 2010, 03:12:39 AM »
Putting up the good fight here azrael? This thing took a lot of work...

Finally took a look at all this (for selfish reasons) and you have many references to abilities not in the mango index: Irresistible Spell (please tell its not from the license-defunct and broken kingdoms of kalamar stuff...) and spell engine are the ones I remember.

This is fusion abuse at its lengthiest. I'm confused about the continuous family domain and so forth but I probably just haven't looked hard enough (this thing needs a roadmap).

Speaking of fusion abuse where is that classic Trinity build? I don't have it in my dirty handbook fixes!

Irresistible Spell is from Kalimar but its official material, it has the official seal just like any other official material, and the official errata doesn't change the feat. The unofficial errata removes it but hey...I think if there was "unofficial errata" for every book most of the things we do here wouldn't be allowed. So saying that irresistible spell isn't viable because the unofficial errata bans it isn't really a good argument (not that you said that exactly, but other people were).

Spell Engine is in SpC I think.

The family domain is a power which you activate for 1 min/level (or something) a day. It has a duration so therefore its permanent with the temporal reiteration/font of power combo. Since it grants a dodge bonus and dodge bonuses stack I figure I can just have a billion of them active at the same time, since the reiteration will persist them, and the dodge bonuses shouldn't override each other...but I could be wrong.

Also, I did fail to mention before that my Azrael fusion idea has been around since the week complete psi came out (the very second I read the temporal reiteration power). So it is probably one of the oldest fusion builds. I just didn't post it back then. Sure, there's no way to prove that or anything...I'm just saying. He started off as a simple leadership build with only him and his cohort...which then evolved when I figured I could fuse his followers, and evolved again when I used thrallherd, and evolved once more when I nested thrallherds into the "final" form you see today. 

Well, it seems that you have edited most of your posts to take out mentions, but you were actually quoted by someone back on page 9 as saying that Azrael was a Non-TO character. You have been proven wrong on that so you are moving goalposts. I get it. Your one of those guys.

Seriously, you have a nice build. But it really is just a compilation of several builds, LITERALLY Fused together. And, like I said, I think most DMs would draw a line between willing to help you with adventuring and ceasing to exist to become part of you. Most DMs would not allow Fusion abuse like this. Hence the entirety of the build is TO as without that Fusion you have nothing particularly special. Despite your effort to Stealth edit your statements throughout this thread, this is something that 5 days ago you claimed was not the case.

I apparently had a different definition of TO than they did. I only meant he wasn't a type 2 char (not that I thought that such a distinction existed, it was merely my own interpretation of what TO was). So I'm not one of "those" guys...whatever that means exactly.

Also, if you cared to actually look into these so called "stealth edits" you would find that for 90% of them the time edited is only a few minutes after the time posted (seriously, go look). The reason most of my posts are edited is because I hate looking at the post in these windows (yes I know you can preview) so I post it, then read over it and fix a few of the more obvious grammatical errors (not all...this isn't a term paper you know). If I really was going back and "stealth editing" my posts the time/date of the edit would be hours or days afterward.

Don't take this the wrong way but I cant talk to you anymore about this because you clearly aren't understanding my arguments. Perhaps I am not making myself clear, or perhaps its an error in interpretation on your part. Regardless of what I say, you keep making the same argument against Azrael.

I will say this one more time...

It doesn't matter what the DM may or may not allow, that has never been the issue. The issue is, Azrael does not rely (as the primary source of his power) on certain types of TO which make it impossible to adjudicate or play a game; such as CoP, and infinite actions. Although Azrael can do these things, he remains extremely powerful without them.

Azrael is TO I have never disputed that. I would derive no pleasure playing him in any campaign because he is too powerful. However, he is not impossible to play in a campaign...if the campaign were made up of Gods, or creatures from the book of immortals he might even be allowed as a normal character. If Azrael relied on techniques like CoP and infinite actions it would make him impossible to play (please note the difference between "too powerful" and "impossible" that is the difference between type 1 and type 2 TO) because either

1. The DM is not psychic, and thus it is impossible to adjudicate CoP in the manner most TO people utilize it unless someone found a realistic way to do the preemptive action CoP idea. However, even if they did, issues such as "who existed first" would likely arise, and thus make it impossible to continue.

2. Infinite anything pretty much hands the entire multiverse on a silver platter to the player using said infinite combo...thus the DM might as well just concede that the character kills everything in the multiverse and is the only sentient being left.

3. I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons.

My "new" argument with Azrael involves collecting data on what types of TO objectively (this is not a subjective matter) make it impossible, or nearly impossible to play a game, classifying them, eliminating any of them from Azrael, and then evaluating him based on other potential matchups versus characters without such TO.

It is also my hope (however lofty) that through this classification we can develop a new curriculum for designing characters; similar to the tier system.


I do hope I have made myself clear this time...if not, perhaps someone like Kell can assist me...he seems to understand what I am saying most of the time.

X-Codes

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #263 on: October 03, 2010, 05:28:18 AM »
Enough is enough, guys.  Azrael's been beaten in arguments by everyone that's cared enough to try, and the only person that refuses to acknowledge as much is Azrael himself.  Just stop posting here and the thread will eventually fall off the front page of the forum, Azrael will be forced to go back to crying himself to sleep at night because his 4.0 GPA isn't enough to make him feel like he's got an enormous penis, and everyone who participated initially and then left afterwards will have the satisfaction of setting something right in the world.  Yes, it's a small, insignificant something that was set right, but it was something.

Azrael

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #264 on: October 03, 2010, 08:41:52 PM »
Wow, no one was even talking to you...and what happened with you being done with this thread? Hmm? You obviously get some sadistic pleasure in bullying other people on the internet. Were you the tough guy in highschool? Do you miss that feeling of power over your peers? Or were you perhaps an outcast, with the internet being the only source of power for you?

The only thing I acknowledged was that it was a stalemate...which it was (and if you want to talk about acknowledgment, I could site all the times people ignored my arguments completely in order to strengthen their own...like the past 5 or so posts I have made). My simple prestidigitation contingency and clever use of CoP has proven that. What I failed to acknowledge, because I was baiting you (as Bauglir pointed out), is that anyone can essentially do the same thing and stalemate pretty much any character...even Pun-Pun; I even had proponents for this argument.

Now, my reasoning for this (as I have been trying to explain in my recent posts) is for developing a new system (similar to tiers) for classifying TO. If pretty much anyone can use a combination of infinite actions, CoP, etc to stalemate any other character it becomes pointless to make any character (other than to show off) that can use such mechanisms. Certain uses of CoP, and similar brokenness, were basically the end of all optimization in my opinion because almost every TO char has access to it, and uses it, thus making the rest of the build (whatever it may be) almost completely pointless. Incase any of you play MTG this is one of the main reasons they ban and restrict cards. Other than a card being ultra powerful, once a card becomes used in just about every deck in a certain format its time to restrict its usage. It is my belief that we must do the same thing with D&D, or at the very least define it as its own separate thing, rather than being dumped in there with the rest of TO. 

I want to be able to make TO characters and NOT contend with things like CoP; and it would be nice if this was a recognizable format, for the sake of ease. As I mentioned several times, I added all those CoP and other common things after the character was completed; it felt forced, like I had no choice but to include them. The real point in posting Azrael was to illustrate that using type 2 elements only creates situations where other type 2 characters must be used in order to defeat him...and likely end in a stalemate anyway.

But I wasn't talking to you anyway, you're just further proof that no one seems to be on the same page as I am. Also, I would like to note that you have personally insulted me many times, If you feel that you need to insult people on the internet in order to feel better about yourself, do it on 4chan where that thing belongs.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 08:44:46 PM by Azrael »

fallen-angle

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #265 on: October 04, 2010, 04:07:06 AM »
If there is to be a discussion about a ban list for D&D I am all up for it. But can we have it in a new thread?

This one is so filled with bickering and back-and-fourth that it has tainted all debate.

On the note of baiting. It would have been more effective just to acknowledge the fact and directly propose a "Type 2" format directly. (I'd say Legacy would be a better name, given the extremely high level and access to materials). Bickering does nothing for the credibility of the argument regardless of intent.
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Azrael

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #266 on: October 04, 2010, 04:17:48 PM »
True, the bickering may lower the credibility of the argument. However, if I have already gotten someone to agree with me prior to making the statement about type 2 then I believe it strengthens it beyond any point that even bickering could spoil.

I will make another thread I just wanted to see if anyone was even interested in the subject before doing so. Its more than a ban list, which I'm sure has been attempted many times. Its mostly an acknowledgment that there are various types of TO which cannot intermingle with each other (fairly); rather than it being classified as one broad category.