Author Topic: Azrael  (Read 30425 times)

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Azrael

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #140 on: September 26, 2010, 02:20:16 PM »
Even my lowly Red Wizard from Hell can destroy the Annilus.  Just sayin'.

Lol, exactly...

Thank you. I can't wait to see someone try to explain how they protect against an item that includes in its description "regardless of any protection it may possess"

the Annulus is absolutely no threat to me, if Azrael hasn't already destroyed it (probably the first thing he does), it does take 10 rounds in order to kill me, and they HAVE to be within 100ft, not on a different plane...speaking of which, Azrael is a RAW, non TO, char...I like how, in order to defeat him, you people are bringing in major artifacts, things there are no way to get beyond non-RAW, TO methods...

You forgot the time traveling psi-crystal though. Not that it is a problem to use COP to discover the precise location where it will emerge and destroy it before it can activate.

How exactly can you make it inside his closed off demi-plane within a demiplane that ONLY Azrael and his psicrystal can enter, and is even further protected (not that it even needs it) with a permanent irresistible, supernatural forbiddance. The answer is simple, you CANNOT get to him. No matter what you may be able to do to Azrael he will respawn 24 hours earlier, find out what killed him in total safety, and rape the shit out of it.

I felt the need to bold this because I have said it several times and you STILL haven't explained how they get in there...you're obviously not paying attention. You're selectively picking which arguments you think you can win and ignoring things that are in my character sheet (because you obviously haven't read the whole thing) and statements I made earlier.

H.I.V.E. is a collective of an arbitrarily high number of creatures, and as a result has an arbitrarily high Caster Level for Sorcerer spells and an arbitrarily high Charisma granting bonus spells.  Each creature that is a member of H.I.V.E. has their own set of actions (and, as such, has an arbitrarily high number of actions by default) and is aware of everything that at least one other member of the Hive is aware of.  What would actually happen in a battle between Azrael and H.I.V.E. is that H.I.V.E. would trigger each of your defenses with one member (sacrificing it if need be) and then proceed to the next level with the rest.  Your infinite actions are utterly meaningless, because no matter what you *can* do, H.I.V.E. goes first because it has more Celerities than you do, and more than enough actions to dismantle you piece-by-piece and destroy you utterly.

As for returning to life, all someone has to do is be prepared to fight you 25 hours in advance of when they intend to fight you, and your precognition of your own death allowing you the opportunity to strike pre-emptively will simply result in the guy that kills you killing you 24 hours earlier.  As soon as you die, any manner of soul-trapping ability will negate your clones, auto-Resurrections, etc.

Also, Azrael has no weaknesses because the basis of EVERYTHING he does are either the 6 spells I noted or their Psionic equivalents.  A standard Wizard 20 can use those exact same spells to achieve the exact same seemingly-immortal status that Azrael has, but, as it turns out, Azrael has one weakness a standard Wizard 20 doesn't have:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/psionicArtifacts.htm#annulus

Once a Wizard 20 amasses the resources to go infinite actions and out-Celerity you to go first (probably by exploiting infinite Wish loops on his own flowing time Demiplane), he casts enough Time Stops to get 10 free rounds to charge the Annulus and destroys your body, captures your soul, and then uses it as a spell component to empower a casting of Prestidigitation to send you into oblivion, beyond the reach of every spell/power/DSA means of Revival ever printed except maybe Alter Reality.  Since you're basically an overbuffed Wizard 20 yourself, this doesn't even break the Annulus.

Seriously, Azrael is *not* that hot of shit.  He's about on par with a Cheater of Mystra, but not nearly on the same level as H.I.V.E. nor even in the ballpark of Pun-Pun.  Seriously, Pun-Pun has more power in his little toenail than Azrael does.

Oh no! He's MUCH MORE powerful than the Cheater of Mystra...he would rape the shit out of that guy...err girl...whatever he/she is...I'm about to defeat H.I.V.E. pay attention below, and I already explained the bit about Pun-Pun, which no one cared to dispute...

As far as H.I.V.E. goes, beyond the whole respawning 24 hours earlier, gaining infinite actions and killing them all systematiacally one by one you still haven't explained how anyone in H.I.V.E. gets within 120 ft of me without me knowing about them.

Lets see, first of all, I have a superior invisibility effect up on myself, so in order to target me with anything they need to be within 120 ft of me, and all have true seeing; do they all possess true seeing? Secondly, they need to make it past my 2 mile repulsion emanation, which has no save, no SR, and even if you are magic immune it still affects you. The only arguable way around it is freedom of movement, which they must all possess (and its sketchy whether freedom of movement even works against a repulsion effect). Next, even if they do manage to approach him, he has a 300ft (I need to change this, apparently I forgot to widen it) so lets say 600ft transdimensional touchsight active at all times. So as soon as they approach within 600ft he percieves them and we roll for initiative...guess what...I'm going to win initiative since I have a +67 bonus and can roll like 5 times...which almost guarantees me at least an 80 initiative. So, before you even get within 500 ft of me, I have already gained infinite actions and am fully prepared to kill them all. If on some ungodly chance he loses initiative if they don't all have foresight (and I highly doubt they do), he can take an action (due to foresight/sense danger) before they even take their first initiative on the surprise round. Thus, he can go into another timestream, gain infinite actions, and before any one of them has even so much as twitched a finger at him...the entirety of H.I.V.E. is dead...

Like I said before...next please.

Now, can a '20th level wizard' beat H.I.V.E....I think not.


At least Kell understands my arguments...sigh...
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 02:33:08 PM by Azrael »

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #141 on: September 26, 2010, 02:31:55 PM »
Azrael is a RAW, non TO, char

I lol'd.

Also, what's stopping H.I.V.E. from having True Seeing and Foresight (and for that matter, anything else they want) up on every single member?

Azrael

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #142 on: September 26, 2010, 02:41:09 PM »
Really...please do explain whats non-RAW about him...

I don't know...are they all 17th level casters? Do they have the ability to persist Foresight on every single member? Does freedom of movement even work against repulsion?

Can they all escape detection and approach within 120 ft of me without me noticing them? Preventing me from beating them all on initiative, attempting to take my first action, they interrupt using celerity (their only immediate action), and I interrupt using my immediate action...can they do that? hmmm?

Can they prevent me from respawning 24 hours earlier and raping the shit out of them with infinite actions....nyooo.

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #143 on: September 26, 2010, 02:45:46 PM »
Really...please do explain whats non-RAW about him...
There is nothing non-RAW about him off the top of my head, and that's not what Boz said. There is a difference between TO and non-RAW (or RAW and non-TO, for that matter).
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Bauglir

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #144 on: September 26, 2010, 02:50:25 PM »
Really...please do explain whats non-RAW about him...

I don't know...are they all 17th level casters? Do they have the ability to persist Foresight on every single member? Does freedom of movement even work against repulsion?

Can they all escape detection and approach within 120 ft of me without me noticing them? Preventing me from beating them all on initiative, attempting to take my first action, they interrupt using celerity (their only immediate action), and I interrupt using my immediate action...can they do that? hmmm?

Can they prevent me from respawning 24 hours earlier and raping the shit out of them with infinite actions....nyooo.

Yeah, TO just refers to the degree of ridiculousness a character achieves. Pun-Pun is totally legit, but still TO. And yes, they are all 17th level casters. Yes, they all have True Seeing. Yes, they all have Freedom of Movement. Yes, they have enough actions and enough spells prepared to blanket your entire demiplane with Disjunctions that automatically have a higher caster level than yours because the H.I.V.E has as many actions and spell slots and as high a caster level as it wants, and Disjunction does end every spell effect within the area (including your 600-ft repulsion). Yes, they have enough spell slots and actions to accelerate a subset of them into constant overlapping Time Stops where the inhabitants constantly cast CoP at a rate fast enough to catch Azrael with his Mindblank down in HIS absurdly rapid timestream when he casts it. Yes, they have enough Wishes to have themselves transported directly to Azrael's demiplane that only he can access, because Wish can transport creatures regardless of local conditions (including your defenses). Yes, they have enough castings of Invoke Magic to cast all the necessary spells while still inside your AMFs, which I assure you will not remain in existence for very long.

EDIT: And yes, all of them have Darkstalker and, through the miracle of Aid Another, absurdly high Hide and Move Silently checks, allowing them to bypass your Touchsight.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Azrael

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #145 on: September 26, 2010, 03:31:30 PM »
Yeah, TO just refers to the degree of ridiculousness a character achieves. Pun-Pun is totally legit, but still TO. And yes, they are all 17th level casters. Yes, they all have True Seeing. Yes, they all have Freedom of Movement. Yes, they have enough actions and enough spells prepared to blanket your entire demiplane with Disjunctions that automatically have a higher caster level than yours because the H.I.V.E has as many actions and spell slots and as high a caster level as it wants, and Disjunction does end every spell effect within the area (including your 600-ft repulsion). Yes, they have enough spell slots and actions to accelerate a subset of them into constant overlapping Time Stops where the inhabitants constantly cast CoP at a rate fast enough to catch Azrael with his Mindblank down in HIS absurdly rapid timestream when he casts it. Yes, they have enough Wishes to have themselves transported directly to Azrael's demiplane that only he can access, because Wish can transport creatures regardless of local conditions (including your defenses). Yes, they have enough castings of Invoke Magic to cast all the necessary spells while still inside your AMFs, which I assure you will not remain in existence for very long.

EDIT: And yes, all of them have Darkstalker and, through the miracle of Aid Another, absurdly high Hide and Move Silently checks, allowing them to bypass your Touchsight.


I don't see how you MDJ his entire demiplane, if that was even an option I'm sure it would have been mentioned before by Kell or someone...it doesn't even exist at one point in space, you cant get inside it, and its duration is instantaneous...

Too bad you have to MDJ my emanation at its origin point (i.e. inside my defenses) in order to take down the repulsion. MDJing it at the edge will do nothing. Too bad you're using the version of Wish that can be interpreted in any which way and is basically up to the DM to decide...making your wish argument null. Also, if they do teleport 'within my defenses' they are delayed 3 rounds (please do pay attention).

Also, you cant overlap timestop...how would that even work? I cast time stop and I am free to do whatever I want in that time, it cannot be interrupted. Even if you cast timestop a millisecond earlier, or later each millisecond is its own x amount of time and cannot possibly interfere with another time stop...seriously...what were you thinking?

Also, I can get my CL higher than them...I just chose an arbitrary number because I didn't want to make it too ridiculous...want me to have a CL of a googleplex...fine, now I do...now what....? Oh, I guess it becomes a battle of who existed first, and thus, has the highest CL...what a stupid argument.

Hell, does H.I.V.E. even count as one character?...otherwise its just like saying "every powerful wizard in the multiverse vs. Azrael"...damn, if it takes that many separate chars to beat him he must be powerful lol.

And 'TO' stands for "theoretical optimization" that is, optimization which is potentially beyond RAW (i.e. up to different interpretations; uses of wish, or your character obtaining artifacts even though there is no legal RAW way to obtain them in the game...for example). Shows how much you know...I guess if you use an acronym long enough its actual meaning is prone to obscurity.

Also, too bad darkstalker doesn't work on touchsight :D

As I stated before...H.I.V.E. is dead (since all you can counter me with is ridiculous TO and potential uses of wish that require a DM to be present to adjudicate it)...deal with it.


« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 03:41:07 PM by Azrael »

Agita

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #146 on: September 26, 2010, 03:38:41 PM »
And 'TO' stands for "theoretical optimization" that is, optimization which is potentially beyond RAW (i.e. up to different interpretations; uses of wish, or your character obtaining artifacts even though there is no legal RAW way to obtain them in the game...for example). Shows how much you know.
No, wrong. Theoretical Optimization is CO that is not suitable for the vast majority of games because it takes RAW by the letter and combines many obscure bits and pieces of rules from different places whose interactions were never even remotely considered by the designers. Pun-Pun is a paragon example of the latter, and the general use of CoP is a great example of the former. TO's 'beyond RAW'-ness stops at extrapolation of guidelines and rules into territory that is simply not mentioned or considered in the sourcebooks, and questionable grammatical interpretations of rules. You will not find one true TO build that uses an artifact because it would, frankly, be cheating, as you yourself said.
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

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Azrael

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #147 on: September 26, 2010, 03:43:43 PM »
No, wrong. Theoretical Optimization is CO that is not suitable for the vast majority of games because it takes RAW by the letter and combines many obscure bits and pieces of rules from different places whose interactions were never even remotely considered by the designers. Pun-Pun is a paragon example of the latter, and the general use of CoP is a great example of the former. TO's 'beyond RAW'-ness stops at extrapolation of guidelines and rules into territory that is simply not mentioned or considered in the sourcebooks, and questionable grammatical interpretations of rules. You will not find one true TO build that uses an artifact because it would, frankly, be cheating, as you yourself said.

Ok, thank you for proving my point then...

Why the hell would you use CO to mean "Theoretical Optimization." I thought CO stood for "Character Optimization"...are you absolutely sure about this?...my explanation makes more sense...since I actually use the correct letters and all.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 03:45:27 PM by Azrael »

Agita

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #148 on: September 26, 2010, 03:47:39 PM »
Ok, thank you for proving my point then...

why the hell would you use CO to mean "Theoretical Optimization." I thought CO stood for "Character Optimization"...are you absolutely sure about this...my explanation makes more sense...since I actually use the correct letters and all...
Please do not put words in my mouth. CO means Character Optimization. The two main subgroups of Character Optimization are Practical Optimization and Theoretical Optimization. Although CO is often used synonimously with Practical Optimization, I'm pretty sure Theoretical Optimization is also a kind of Character Optimization. Wouldn't you agree? In the above post I used CO as a general term for any and all kinds of optimization. If you don't find that term acceptable, then may I ask what you would use as an overarching term for both Theoretical and Practical Optimization?
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

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Bauglir

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #149 on: September 26, 2010, 03:52:23 PM »
Yeah, TO just refers to the degree of ridiculousness a character achieves. Pun-Pun is totally legit, but still TO. And yes, they are all 17th level casters. Yes, they all have True Seeing. Yes, they all have Freedom of Movement. Yes, they have enough actions and enough spells prepared to blanket your entire demiplane with Disjunctions that automatically have a higher caster level than yours because the H.I.V.E has as many actions and spell slots and as high a caster level as it wants, and Disjunction does end every spell effect within the area (including your 600-ft repulsion). Yes, they have enough spell slots and actions to accelerate a subset of them into constant overlapping Time Stops where the inhabitants constantly cast CoP at a rate fast enough to catch Azrael with his Mindblank down in HIS absurdly rapid timestream when he casts it. Yes, they have enough Wishes to have themselves transported directly to Azrael's demiplane that only he can access, because Wish can transport creatures regardless of local conditions (including your defenses). Yes, they have enough castings of Invoke Magic to cast all the necessary spells while still inside your AMFs, which I assure you will not remain in existence for very long.

EDIT: And yes, all of them have Darkstalker and, through the miracle of Aid Another, absurdly high Hide and Move Silently checks, allowing them to bypass your Touchsight.


I don't see how you MDJ his entire demiplane, if that was even an option I'm sure it would have been mentioned before by Kell or someone...it doesn't even exist at one point in space, you cant get inside it, and its duration is instantaneous...

They just cast enough MDJs to cover the volume of his plane. They have a lot of them.

Quote
Too bad you have to MDJ my emanation at its origin point (i.e. inside my defenses) in order to take down the repulsion. MDJing it at the edge will do nothing. Too bad you're using the version of Wish that can be interpreted in any which way and is basically up to the DM to decide...making your wish argument null. Also, if they do teleport 'within my defenses' they are delayed 3 rounds (please do pay attention).

Yeah, you're right, they DO have to get the origin point (but only because it's an emanation; which spell is it, by the way, that gets that with a 2 mile radius? I'm gonna go back and check the OP after this post and see if it's there, so don't worry if it's clearly explained there Yeah, ok, I'm not sure how you're denying them their Will save). Actually, I'm NOT using the "wishing for more powerful effects" section. Quoth the SRD:

Quote
• Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

It's an explicitly allowed effect. And it's not teleportation, either; it references nowhere a teleport effect. It does not have the [Teleportation] descriptor; Anticipate Teleportation does nothing (please do pay attention).

Quote
Also, you cant overlap timestop...how would that even work? I cast time stop and I am free to do whatever I want in that time, it cannot be interrupted. Even if you cast timestop a millisecond earlier, or later each millisecond is its own x amount of time and cannot possibly interfere with another time stop...seriously...what were you thinking?

I'm just saying that, at any given moment in time, one of them is in a Time Stop effect. Anyway, you're right, I'm only acting on the fluff of Time Stop; RAW, they can't do that, but still, they just have Mind Blank up constantly except for when they're CoP themselves, just as you do; they won't know anything about Azrael, but he'll know nothing of them.

Quote
Also, I can get my CL higher than them...I just chose an arbitrary number because I didn't want to make it too ridiculous...want me to have a CL of a googleplex...fine, now I do...now what....?

So do they. Their CL is arbitrarily high, just as yours is, only they don't have to spend actions using Greater Consumptive Field.

Quote
And 'TO' stands for "theoretical optimization" that is, optimization which is potentially beyond RAW (i.e. up to different interpretations; uses of wish, or your character obtaining artifacts even though there is no legal RAW way to obtain them in the game...for example). Shows how much you know.

Uhm, no, you're wrong, actually. Theoretical refers to optimization that would never see use in an actual game; just as you never see a character actually playing Pun-Pun, you'll never see somebody playing Azrael. Shows how much you know.

Quote
P.S. Too bad darkstalker doesn't work on touchsight :D

Ah, you're right, my bad. On the plus side, it does mean Azrael is standing out in the open since he still needs LoE. Could be useful, that. Still, it hardly matters; using Wish, the H.I.V.E just transports a few thousand, easily disposable, members to Azrael's immediate vicinity where they drop Invoke Magic'd Disjunctions wherever they need to and then take him apart when he explodes from Fusion ending.

Incidentally, you really don't need to take this so personally. What's with the childish insults?

EDIT: I edited this in above, but since I don't really expect you to reread the entire post again, how do you deny people the Will save against Repulsion?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 04:07:20 PM by Bauglir »
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Azrael

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #150 on: September 26, 2010, 03:58:22 PM »
But why wouldn't "theoretical optimization" mean optimization that's "theoretical," i.e. going beyond RAW...I cant see any other meaning for the word...if its RAW then how can it be theoretical? It just is...

Theoretical is a non-definitive word. Why would we use a non-definitive word to represent something which is indisputable by RAW...do you get what I'm saying?

Also, I wasn't putting words in your mouth, I was simply commenting on your comment about artifacts, since you basically proved my point concerning the use of artifacts in killing Azrael being non-RAW (not that he can be defeated by the artifacts anyway).


Bauglir

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #151 on: September 26, 2010, 04:02:34 PM »
But why wouldn't "theoretical optimization" mean optimization that's "theoretical," i.e. going beyond RAW...I cant see any other meaning for the word...if its RAW then how can it be theoretical? It just is...

Theoretical is a non-definitive word. Why would we use a non-definitive word to represent something which is indisputable by RAW...do you get what I'm saying?

Also, I wasn't putting words in your mouth, I was simply commenting on your comment about artifacts, since you basically proved my point concerning the use of artifacts in killing Azrael being non-RAW (not that he can be defeated by the artifacts anyway).



It's called theoretical because it exists only in theory, not in practice. You don't see these builds in real games; hence, they are only theoretical. I get what you're saying, but it's not theoretical in terms of the RAW, it's theoretical in terms of games that get played.

Anyway, yes, artifacts that you can't arrange to obtain in-game (epic Binders can get spheres of annihilation, for instance; I'm not aware of any other (EDIT: non-TO) examples) can't be assumed, although their effects are still RAW. Whether you can have one is not assured, and as such I'd consider reliance on them to be a severe blow to the practicality of a given build, and a build that could do it without artifacts would be superior. Still, you said "no possible way this character can be beaten", so artifacts are a legit counterargument since your statement was so broad.

EDIT: Anyway, Agita's statement about artifacts was perfectly reasonable; they're not TO because they're not, strictly speaking, a guaranteed thing. The only time you see them used in true TO is when the TO is a way of getting them (because Shaedlings are awesome and so is Tsuyo).
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 04:07:51 PM by Bauglir »
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Azrael

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #152 on: September 26, 2010, 04:07:45 PM »

They just cast enough MDJs to cover the volume of his plane. They have a lot of them.


Since they cant get onto the plane in the first place, let alone even know it exists, or how to find it, I don't see how this is possible. And since they cannot CoP me they have no idea about my respawning 24 hours earlier, and thus cannot prevent it. Since I will respawn (assuming they get past repulsion, touchsight, beat me on initiative, and get around my new wish contingency (see below)) I can CoP for the exact moment I will be attacked in the coming day, thus I know just when to trigger my infinite actions, and there's nothing they can do about it. Since I am CoPing about what will happen to me...which is certainly viable.


I'm just saying that, at any given moment in time, one of them is in a Time Stop effect. Anyway, you're right, I'm only acting on the fluff of Time Stop; RAW, they can't do that, but still, they just have Mind Blank up constantly except for when they're CoP themselves, just as you do; they won't know anything about Azrael, but he'll know nothing of them.


Good then, another stalemate...since a 20th level wizard can apparently stalemate me, I guess ill have to accept that against the H.I.V.E.


Ah, you're right, my bad. On the plus side, it does mean Azrael is standing out in the open since he still needs LoE. Could be useful, that. Still, it hardly matters; using Wish, the H.I.V.E just transports a few thousand, easily disposable, members to Azrael's immediate vicinity where they drop Invoke Magic'd Disjunctions wherever they need to and then knock take him apart when he explodes from Fusion ending.

Ah then, I guess ill just have to add another contingency about people using wish to transport themselves near me...problem solved :D

I edited this in above, but since I don't really expect you to reread the entire post again, how do you deny people the Will save against Repulsion?

Irresistible and Supernatural Repulsion; Irresistible Spell is a metamagic feat in the Kingdoms of Kalimar Players Handbook (its official material btw).

Incidentally, you really don't need to take this so personally. What's with the childish insults?

Are you trying to make me look like the bad guy by citing things that don't exist?...please, by all means, do quote the section where I directly insulted you.




Anyway, I am DONE for now...I have better things to do with my day than argue such things.


« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 04:15:02 PM by Azrael »

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #153 on: September 26, 2010, 04:13:58 PM »
Also, I wasn't putting words in your mouth, I was simply commenting on your comment about artifacts, since you basically proved my point concerning the use of artifacts in killing Azrael being non-RAW (not that he can be defeated by the artifacts anyway).
No part of my post referred to your comment about me proving your point, as your point about artifacts is not part of my concerns in this debate (although I agree that using artifacts to defeat Azrael misses the point of the challenge). This is a challenge, I find it great that people are taking it on, but I'm not an active participant. I'm here because I took issue with your definition of TO.

It's called theoretical because it exists only in theory, not in practice. You don't see these builds in real games; hence, they are only theoretical. I get what you're saying, but it's not theoretical in terms of the RAW, it's theoretical in terms of games that get played.
Thank you. This is exactly what I was going to say about TO. It's called theoretical because it is theory, as opposed to practice.

EDIT: For the record:
the·o·ret·i·cal
   [thee-uh-ret-i-kuhl]
–adjective
1.
of, pertaining to, or consisting in theory; not practical ( distinguished from applied).
2.
existing only in theory; hypothetical.
3.
given to, forming, or dealing with theories; speculative.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 04:36:47 PM by Agita »
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #154 on: September 26, 2010, 04:17:11 PM »
By the by, does anyone happen to have a link to the H.I.V.E.?
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Re: Azrael
« Reply #155 on: September 26, 2010, 04:22:19 PM »
EDIT: Anyway, Agita's statement about artifacts was perfectly reasonable; they're not TO because they're not, strictly speaking, a guaranteed thing. The only time you see them used in true TO is when the TO is a way of getting them (because Shaedlings are awesome and so is Tsuyo).
Speaking of which, is Shadow Gossamer's wording broad enough that you could shape artifacts with completely made-up abilities, as it has been arguesd with Pun-Pun?
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Re: Azrael
« Reply #156 on: September 26, 2010, 04:29:49 PM »
To avoid a series of quotamids:

1. They get there via Wish, which I assumed you'd pick up from my later mention of it. So saying they can't get there doesn't really work.

2. And yes, I'm conceding that on that point it's only a stalemate.

3. Could you explain your contingency? The only rules that exist are for things that happen to you, so you couldn't word it on something like a creature appearing near you unless you want to leave the realm of strict RAW and argue that the word "usually" in craft contingent spell lets you do other things. Alternatively, if you're using the spell "contingency", then that's fine, although you can only have one and I'm not sure what it would be (remember, 6th level spell at most; what is this contingency going to do, exactly?), and I'm going to grant that "Uses Wish to transport to somewhere within 200 feet of me" probably isn't too convoluted. Alternatively, if you just meant the general sense of "contingency", could you describe in more detail what you mean?

4. Could you explain to me why Kingdoms of Kalamar (EDIT: And yes, I'm looking at the Player's Guide) is legit? It's a 3.0 3rd party sourcebook that, as far as I can tell from the information on its Table of Contents page, was only published under the OGL license (like all 3rd party sourcebooks). I might be missing something, though.

Anyway, back to the quoting for non-rules things:

Quote
Are you trying to make me look like the bad guy by citing things that don't exist?...please, by all means, do quote the section where I directly insulted you.

(please do pay attention)...what a stupid argument... shows how much you know...

And that's only the explicit stuff (mind, I don't buy that "I didn't directly insult you" bullshit that everyone under the age of 10 uses, and if the fact that I'm pointing out your complete inability to construct a rational argument seems like a personal attack, well, I'm not DIRECTLY insulting you, right?). I'm not arguing that your character isn't powerful; he is. I'm arguing that he CAN be defeated by legal builds, and you're just moving the goalposts in an attempt to hide your original overblown statements. I like the stealth edits to your post, by the way. And congratulations on the "I'm leaving, this argument isn't worth my time" approach.

EDIT:
EDIT: Anyway, Agita's statement about artifacts was perfectly reasonable; they're not TO because they're not, strictly speaking, a guaranteed thing. The only time you see them used in true TO is when the TO is a way of getting them (because Shaedlings are awesome and so is Tsuyo).
Speaking of which, is Shadow Gossamer's wording broad enough that you could shape artifacts with completely made-up abilities, as it has been arguesd with Pun-Pun?

It might be. I'll look at it after finding the H.I.V.E, which I honestly should do because it's not fair to rely on a shadow build with undefinable abilities.

ADDITIONAL EDIT:
I can't find the H.I.V.E. The only thing that ever comes up is the CL 90-something hivemind from using Dark Speech with a bunch of swarms crammed into one square, but that doesn't sound like what we're describing. Anybody got a more specific reference or phrase from the original thread? Alternatively, if it was one of the Dirty Tricks, which one?

As for the Shaedling: yes. If you buy that "an ability" includes ones that don't exist, then you have to grant that "an item" (which is the wording on the Shaedling) includes ones that don't exist.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 07:29:40 PM by Bauglir »
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Lunaramblings

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #157 on: September 26, 2010, 06:52:44 PM »

X-Codes

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #158 on: September 26, 2010, 07:03:08 PM »
Using Dark Speech to create H.I.V.E. instead of taking Verminlord to become it yourself results in a more powerful H.I.V.E., anyway.  Regardless, here's all you need to know about H.I.V.E., pulled from BoVD:

Quote from: Book of Vile Darkness p34
Hivemind

As a side effect of some evil spiritual presence or dark blessing, vermin and certain animals can take on a sort of evil consciousness shared among a large group, though each individual member retains little or no intellect.  When a hivemind forms, each individual creature becomes just a tiny part of a much larger, much greater intelligence.  But even the most craven sages do not understand how or why hiveminds develop.

If at least 50 vermin or animals of the same species are arranged so that no one individual is more than 10 feed from another individual, the hivemind may come into effect.  All the creatures operate with an Intelligence of 5, even if they previously had no Intelligence score (as with vermin).  The creatures' Intelligence score increases by +1 for every 20 individuals (beyond the first 50) in the hivemind, up to an Intelligence of 10 for a hivemind of 150 creatures.  Beyond the 150-creature threshold, Intelligence increases by +1 for every 50 additional individuals.  Thus, a swarm of 500 rats would have a hivemind Intelligence of 17.  For every point of Intelligence bonus possessed by the hivemind, award each individual creature one feat and 1 skill point per Hit Die.  Intelligence-based skill bonuses increase accordingly.  So the 500 rats in the swarm (Int 17, +3 bonus) would each have 3 extra skill points and three feats.  In this case, they gain a +3 bonus on Hide checks and the feats Alertness, Skill Focus (Move Silently) and Weapon Focus (bite).

The increase to Intelligence gained for every creature in the hivemind over 50 also applies to Charisma.  So, a hivemind of 500 rats (normal Charisma score 2) has a Charisma score of 14.

If a hivemind attains a Charisma score of 18 or higher, it gains the ability to cast spells as a sorcerer.  For every point of Charisma over 17, the hivemind has one level of sorcerer.  A hivemind of 1,000 rats has a Charisma of 22, so it would cast spells as a 5th-level sorcerer, for example.  The hivemind has six cantrips, eight 1st-level spells, and six 2nd-level spells each day.  Any single creature can cast one of the hivemind's spells, but those spell slots are then lost to other creatures in the hivemind.  Creatures in a hivemind have no need for somatic or material components, and their squeaks, screeches, or clicks serve as verbal components.

When creatures in a hivemind attack, they all gain a +1 insight bonus on their attack rolls and a +1 insight bonus to their Armor Class.  Each creature knows the actions of every other member of the hivemind.  The entire hivemind is aware of what every individual is experiencing.

So, if we were to say that a 9th-level Druid casts the spell Insect Plague and then uses Dark Speech to turn the summoned swarms into a hivemind, you'd have a swarm of 4,500 vermin.  That gives the first-iteration H.I.V.E. an intelligence of 97 and a charisma of 94.  It casts spells as a 76th-level Sorcerer, with spells per day (before feats) of 6/17/17/16/16/16/16/15/15/15.  The swarm has 43 * 4500 bonus feats (193,500 total). The first-iteration H.I.V.E. takes Extra Spell, with each member of the swarm picking a different spell (essentially learning all sub-9th Sor/Wiz spells in existence).  They also take Dark Speech.  The Swarm then takes the Extra Slot feat using it's remaining feats, resulting in having a final count of 189014 8th-level spell slots.  Even if you use all your 5th+ slots for CoP, the first-iteration H.I.V.E. will out-CoP you at a rate of over 390:1.  In other words, for each year you spend using CoP to gain information, H.I.V.E. can match with a single day's preparation.

The first-iteration H.I.V.E. can then use CoP to determine whether or not anyone is capable of overpowering them. If someone can, the first-iteration H.I.V.E. casts Genesis, retreats to it's demiplane, UMD's a (toothipcik-sized) Staff of Swarming Insects (brought into being via Wish) to cast Insect Plague as a 9th-level Druid 16 more times, and then uses Dark Speech to unify the entirety into one massive second-iteration H.I.V.E. of 1,224,000 vermin with an Intelligence of 24,487 and a Charisma of 24,484.  They have 12,238 bonus feats per member, and when spent on Extra Slot they wind up with just shy of 15 BILLION 8th-level spells per day and 2,814 9th-level spells per day, cast at a CL of 24,866, out-CoPing you at a rate of almost 31 MILLION TO ONE.  In other words, the second-iteration H.I.V.E. can cast as many CoPs in one day as you can in 85 THOUSAND YEARS.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 07:15:16 PM by X-Codes »

fallen-angle

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #159 on: September 26, 2010, 07:23:11 PM »
Quote
As far as H.I.V.E. goes, beyond the whole respawning 24 hours earlier, gaining infinite actions and killing them all systematiacally one by one you still haven't explained how anyone in H.I.V.E. gets within 120 ft of me without me knowing about them.

Lets see, first of all, I have a superior invisibility effect up on myself, so in order to target me with anything they need to be within 120 ft of me, and all have true seeing; do they all possess true seeing? Secondly, they need to make it past my 2 mile repulsion emanation, which has no save, no SR, and even if you are magic immune it still affects you. The only arguable way around it is freedom of movement, which they must all possess (and its sketchy whether freedom of movement even works against a repulsion effect). Next, even if they do manage to approach him, he has a 300ft (I need to change this, apparently I forgot to widen it) so lets say 600ft transdimensional touchsight active at all times. So as soon as they approach within 600ft he percieves them and we roll for initiative...guess what...I'm going to win initiative since I have a +67 bonus and can roll like 5 times...which almost guarantees me at least an 80 initiative. So, before you even get within 500 ft of me, I have already gained infinite actions and am fully prepared to kill them all. If on some ungodly chance he loses initiative if they don't all have foresight (and I highly doubt they do), he can take an action (due to foresight/sense danger) before they even take their first initiative on the surprise round. Thus, he can go into another timestream, gain infinite actions, and before any one of them has even so much as twitched a finger at him...the entirety of H.I.V.E. is dead...

1) To begin, all members of H.I.V.E. are sorcerer's or an arbitrarily massive level. If a spell exists that circumvents a defense, they have it. So yes, they have true seeing.

2) Repulsion can probably be beaten by freedom of movement, Globe of Invunerability heightened to a sufficient extent could also work. Neither matters since it was established above that Wish can bring them right to you.

3) Touchsight Falls to the Darkstalker feat. Naturally they approach while in Time Stop. And lets throw in that they have Astrally projected from their own demiplane. Just for good measure. Therefore spot checks are meaningless.

4) They all have foresight. It really isn't hard to have foresight, why would you assume that you are completely prepared and they are not. Other people have COP too.

On the topic of your cute little demiplane. They find it via COP, the same way Azrael appears to discover all knowledge (Since Azrael actively plans to attack them they can therefore ask the very same questions he asks, and get the very same unwaveringly accurate answers). These things go both ways. Any wizard 20 can create a perfect demiplane with unnatural timeflows. Any Wizard 20 can cast COP basically at will (via Shapechange). Any wizard 20 can wish up enough rounds in timestop (infinite is nice, really only need about 4 though).
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 07:27:17 PM by fallen-angle »
Master Transmographist Guide (In Progress): http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9277.20