Author Topic: Tome of Battle  (Read 33267 times)

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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #80 on: June 01, 2011, 09:19:31 PM »
As for Planar Effects, yeah, we kinda do need to clarify it (since by RAW you can extinguish the Plane of Fire).
Maybe, I mean the planar of fire is always hot (and high amounts of heat deals fire damage) so it could maybe possible lack a duration.

And if you go with that, Prime's write up works fine even if the planar trait is super natural.

And Sin, you were right on ISH taking up a lot of space. We're kinda bogged down on it >.<


Controversial effects are always hard to work with for this exact reason. At least we've gotten this far.


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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #81 on: June 01, 2011, 09:43:52 PM »
Not really an errata, but IHS could just allow another save against an ongoing effect. If the effect did not have a save, IHS could allow a save at the same DC that the effect would have if it did have a save.

It'd probably be a good idea to make this only work on magically induced effects.
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #82 on: June 02, 2011, 12:24:09 AM »
Not really an errata, but IHS could just allow another save against an ongoing effect. If the effect did not have a save, IHS could allow a save at the same DC that the effect would have if it did have a save.

It'd probably be a good idea to make this only work on magically induced effects.

Yeah, that falls too far into house rules, as it goes against the wording entirely. I'd like to reserve rewrites for things like SoRV, Snap Kick, and other effects that needed that level of clarification, but that's completely altering the way the ability works.


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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #83 on: June 08, 2011, 06:28:52 PM »
I've updated post 5 with the errata for Devoted Spirit-Setting Sun maneuvers and stances. Time for Shadow Hand-White Raven:

Shadow Hand
[spoiler]Bloodletting Strike: Supernatural or not? It's understandable either way.

Child of Shadow: Delete the words "Melee" and "Ranged". It applies to any attack, so why bother differentiating?

Dance of the Spider: Clarify the second-to-last sentence, because it's just worded stupidly. And Supernatural tag needed (seriously).

Death in the Dark: See Bloodletting Strike.

Drain Vitality: See Bloodletting Strike.

Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike: As the actual errata says: Delete the duration.

Hand of Death: See Bloodletting Strike. Stronger argument for being Su, as this involves Ki by the fluff (even if it is mutable).

One With Shadow: OK, how the fuck does this NOT have the Su clause?

Shadow Blink/Jaunt/Stride: See Bloodletting Strike.

Step of the Dancing Moth: See Bloodletting Strike. Seriously, WTF were the editors thinking?[/spoiler]

Stone Dragon
[spoiler]Reiterating my desire to remove the "On the ground" restriction.

Charging Minotaur: Slight rewording "As part of this maneuver, you charge and must replace the melee attack with a bull rush attempt" Add in a Pounce clause, because it is a Charge.

Crushing Vise: Should we mess with the last few lines (such as removing them, so this maneuver can be used to stop Flyby Attackers)?

Earthstrike Quake: Su or no? I'm inclined to say "yes" since this is Ki-related, but Stone Dragon isn't an SU school (and this maneuver really isn't that strong).

Elder Mountain Hammer: The fluff implies it can be used for sundering. Should we add that in, since the Mountain Hammer line really is the Fighter's Lockpick?

Giant's Stance: A clause for natural weapons is, well, natural.

Irresistible Mountain Strike: As with Crushing Vice, but this also needs a little clarification (can the target still take Full Round actions?).

Mountain Hammer: Again, Sunder clause (heh, that's actually pretty funny)?

Overwhelming Mountain Strike: Again, remove the "on the ground" clause or no?

Stone Dragon's Fury: The counterpart to this (Bone Crusher) cannot deal damage to undead, oozes, or anything immune to Criticals. This cannot deal damage to any of those, with the exception of objects and Constructs. I feel we should fix that for this strike.

Stone Vise: They really like that "on the ground" clause, huh? If we do remove that clause, I'll be sure to mention something for Flying creatures and minimum forward movement/Hovering (I can easily imagine using this on some guy's mount, and then watching them fall to the ground or lose altitude).[/spoiler]

Tiger Claw
[spoiler]Blood in the Water: Reword the last part like this "This stance ends if you go for one minute without scoring a critical hit."

Claw at the Moon: Here's something I never understood; The Jump check isn't specified as requiring a Running Start (long and high jumps do). Should that be changed (since it's implied with Leaping Dragon Stance's wording), or should they be unique to the style (thus making it easier on low level Tiger Claw adepts, but diminishing the usefulness of LDS)?

Dancing Mongoose: A clause about TWFing penalties would be nice (this line of maneuvers was meant to be an alternative, according to the FAQs, so mentioning that the penalties don't apply to this boost would be the way to go).

Death From Above: Unlike Claw at the Moon, this involves movement. Failing the check means you still get to attack, but don't get to move. The other problem is the extra damage: Do you still get it if you failed the check (I'm inclined to say no, and apply that to the errata). Swooping Dragon Strike has better wording.

Raging Mongoose: See Dancing Mongoose.

Wolf Fang Strike: TWFing Penalties should be mentioned. Again, the FAQ mentioned this one as ignoring the normal TWFing penalties.

Wolverine Stance: The last sentence is incorrect, since it makes it sound like the other creature initiated the grapple.[/spoiler]

White Raven


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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #84 on: June 08, 2011, 06:29:01 PM »
And as a preemptive measure, I'd like to state my opinion on White Raven Tactics as-written.

This is for future reference, BTW.

[spoiler]We look at this maneuver as being poorly written, and this goes without saying. As-is, you can target yourself and just take an extra turn. But what are the implications of letting a White Raven Adept use WRT on himself? Simple: Ungodly broken side effects. While a single Warblade or Crusader using WRT on himself isn't too powerful of a buff (except in the Crusader's case, where there is the potential for more than one extra turn), the fact is we cannot simply overlook this potential.

Why? Page 149: The Crown of White Ravens. An item explicitly designed for use on the White Raven school. For a mere 3,000gp and 24 hours, you have WRT open to you 1/encounter. Not 1/day, 1/encounter. Now let's buy 3 of them. 9,000gp. Now put them together using the DMG's rules for combining magic items (page 288). The final price is 3,000gp+4,500gp+4,500gp, or 12K for those who don't want to add right now.

You now have an item that works 3/encounter, grants a full turn each use, and can be used in rapid succession so you effectively take 4 turns at the start of your first turn. The Belt of Battle, an item widely considered a must-have, has just been replaced by an item that is only 20% more expensive, and works all day long. This is almost strictly superior to the Celerity line of spells (the advantage there is the Immediate action casting time, allowing you to avoid dangerous opponents).

I, for one, never want to see something like that exist.[/spoiler]


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Midnight_v

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #85 on: June 09, 2011, 12:03:35 AM »
So... your saying "remove this item" right?
I'm thinking WRT has been deliberated etc. We know that it targets yourself.
People don't like that but it does. Thats the only rub of it. items.
Manythings that exist that jimme with the action economy for many classes and the Tob "magic" should be no different. On par with the other action economy things that people don't like. Maybe NONE of them should exist... excluding this one as opposed to limiting its use as an abusable item. Ymmv.
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #86 on: June 09, 2011, 01:55:02 AM »
So... your saying "remove this item" right?
I'm thinking WRT has been deliberated etc. We know that it targets yourself.
People don't like that but it does. Thats the only rub of it. items.
Manythings that exist that jimme with the action economy for many classes and the Tob "magic" should be no different. On par with the other action economy things that people don't like. Maybe NONE of them should exist... excluding this one as opposed to limiting its use as an abusable item. Ymmv.

Except deleting that item goes beyond the scope of this project (errata, not house rules).

And WRT isn't on par with other action economy abusers: It's superior to everything that isn't down-right INFINITE. 200,000gp, the maximum possible value of a magic item pre-Epic, buys 44 extra actions every encounter. Never mind that a 1 level dip into Warblade turns it into 44 extra actions every round (you use the final turn granted by the Crown to recover your maneuvers, instantly renewing 44 extra actions), this is something beyond even a Nova Spellcaster.

The Factotum is capable of getting a huge number of actions every encounter as well, but not on this level, nor can it do much damage. With this, even a lowly Warrior becomes a down-right threat (43 Full Attacks, give or take charging between opponents). Imagine a spellcaster with this kind of item.



There are two ways to deal with it: Add in a clause that prevents it from targeting the initiator, or restrict the Crown from Boosts. The latter causes all kinds of problems, as the item's all ready got a debate on Stances. The former is much less problematic, as a good number of DMs all ready outlaw that interaction anyway.


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Ithamar

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #87 on: June 09, 2011, 06:31:26 PM »
Well then the errata for White Raven Tactics should include this tag line:  "This manuever does not work more than once per round."
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Midnight_v

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #88 on: June 09, 2011, 09:13:53 PM »
Well then the errata for White Raven Tactics should include this tag line:  "This manuever does not work more than once per round."
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #89 on: June 09, 2011, 09:30:07 PM »
Well then the errata for White Raven Tactics should include this tag line:  "This manuever does not work more than once per round."

Agreed.


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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #90 on: June 13, 2011, 09:33:45 PM »
Are there any issues with the Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and White Raven maneuvers other than the ones addressed here that you guys want to bring up?

If not, I'll apply the errata and move onto the PrCs section.


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Garryl

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #91 on: June 14, 2011, 03:14:36 AM »
Shadow Hand
[spoiler]
Balance on the Sky - Replace "You gian the ability to use air walk" with "You gain the benefits of air walk".

Enervating Shadow Strike - Clarify that the negative levels, which disappear after 24 hours, do so before causing permanent level loss (which also occurs after 24 hours). See the Enervation spell for the right wording.

Shadow Jaunt - Clarify that you take your equipment with you. Probably up to your maximum load, to be consistent with other teleportation effects.

Shadow Noose - "A successful save negates the stun, but not the extra damage." Since the maneuver deals its own damage but does not add it to a base amount, remove the word "extra" from the sentence.

I could have sworn there was one maneuver with a range of 6 ft. instead of 60 ft.

[/spoiler]

Stone Dragon
[spoiler]
Boulder Roll - Change initiation action to 1 swift action in accordance with boosts and so you can actually use it with an overrun.

Colossus Strike - Replace "hurled 1d4 squares" with "hurled 1d4x5 feet".

Earthsrike Quake - Replace "you are immune to the effect of the earthstrike quake maneuver" with "you are immune to the effect of your earthstrike quake maneuver".

Irresistible Mountain Strike, Overwhelming Mountain Strike - Clarify the wording to indicate that you actually lose one of the actions (and are thus reduced to a move+swift or a standard+swift), as opposued to just being unable to take actions of that type (thus allowing, say, a creature hit by Irresistible to full-attack or a creature hit by Overwhelming to use a withdraw or run action).

Stonefoot Stance - Clarify whether or not the +2 bonus to Strength checks applies to everything or only to larger creatures.

[/spoiler]

Tiger Claw
[spoiler]
Blood in the Water - Replace the last sentence in the first paragraph with "This bonus increases by 1 with each subsequent successful critical hit you score." As an untyped bonus from the same source, this would one of the few cases where it does not stack, so no need to give people the wrong idea.

Dancing Mongoose, Raging Mongoose - Either clarify that the boost-granted attacks occur immediately (even if you aren't otherwise attacking), or change it to soemthing similar to Snap Kick, where you initiate it while making one or more attacks and you get the extras as part of the same action. As written, this lets you attack as a swift action, regardless of whatever else you are doing in the round.

Death From Above - Note that you still provoke attacks of opportunity from this movement.

Feral Death Blow - Add the following to the last sentence of the second paragrapgh: "but still suffer the extra damage."

Numerous Tiger Claw maneuvers - Clarify whether or not the DC of the Jump check doubles if you don't move at least 20 feet first.

[/spoiler]

White Raven
[spoiler]
Covering Strike - Clarify the duration with respect to you. Does it only modify your attacks for the turn, or for 3 rounds?

Order Forged from Chaos - Clarify that the move action granted does not count against your allies' normal complement of actions on their upcoming turns. Maybe also state explicitly that this does not affect you (or at least clarify whether or not).

Swarm Tactics - Clarify that only allies within range of the stance gain the attack bonus (different from Leading the Attack and the DS one).

Numerous White Raven maneuvers - Clarify whether or not you count as your own ally for the various effects.

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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #92 on: June 14, 2011, 03:40:25 AM »
Numerous Tiger Claw maneuvers - Clarify whether or not the DC of the Jump check doubles if you don't move at least 20 feet first.

As I noted above, this is something that has been bugging me. I almost instinctively avoid those maneuvers (except Sudden Leap) because I don't know how to rule them.

I'm thinking that requiring the 20ft would nerf those maneuvers down pretty hard until you get Leaping Dragon, and that requiring a specific stance to use those maneuvers is unnecessarily harsh towards the players. On the other hand, removing the 20ft requirement diminishes the value of the Leaping Dragon stance.


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Garryl

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #93 on: June 14, 2011, 04:04:38 AM »
If you had to ask me to rule on it, I'd say that the maneuvers that specify their DC (fixed DC and also DC = enemy AC maneuvers) are exactly that (ie: not multiplied even if you don't move), but the ones that make reference to the normal rules for moving with a Jump check (Sudden Leap and two or three others) work as those rules are normally (ie: the DC is doubled for them if you move less than 20 feet).

Leaping Dragon is a decent option in its own right if you plan on jumping a lot. The +10-foot enhancement bonus (which should be a straight +10 enhancement bonus on the check, otherwise the units don't match and the bonus is meaningless) still helps you succeed on your checks for the TC maneuvers and the standing leap/running jump thing still comes up from time to time around 5th level when you get it (you know, before everyone just flies around all the time). Not all stances have to be useful all the time.
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snakeman830

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #94 on: June 14, 2011, 02:03:43 PM »
Request for a change in the consensus: Swordsage AC Bonus as our written erratta works does not stack with things like the Dervish AC bonus or the Fist of the Forest.  Suggest altering it so it specifically does not stack with Monk or Ninja AC Bonus abilities (or anything that states it does not stack with those abilities) as opposed to "AC Bonus" in general.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #95 on: June 15, 2011, 01:56:52 PM »
Request for a change in the consensus: Swordsage AC Bonus as our written erratta works does not stack with things like the Dervish AC bonus or the Fist of the Forest.  Suggest altering it so it specifically does not stack with Monk or Ninja AC Bonus abilities (or anything that states it does not stack with those abilities) as opposed to "AC Bonus" in general.

That's right, those two are different. Changing.


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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #96 on: June 15, 2011, 04:09:18 PM »
Before I update the consensus:

Quote
Page 94 - White Raven Tactics [Addition and Clarification]
You cannot target yourself, despite being your own ally (as doing so results in an infinite penalty to your initiative count). Add "A creature can only be affected by one White Raven Tactics per encounter." to the end of the maneuver's text.

Are there any objections to those two changes to WRT?


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veekie

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #97 on: June 15, 2011, 05:36:34 PM »
Hmm, I'd have made it once per round instead, personally.
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #98 on: June 15, 2011, 05:44:15 PM »
Hmm, I'd have made it once per round instead, personally.

I just based it on the Covering Strike wording really.


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veekie

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #99 on: June 15, 2011, 06:38:18 PM »
Well, its just very nice at half at 1/round. It becomes hax when you can apply it over and over and over.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

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