Author Topic: Tome of Battle  (Read 33271 times)

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Prime32

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Tome of Battle
« on: May 10, 2011, 01:50:45 PM »
One of the most infamous books for its (lack of) errata, what do we need to do here? Iron Heart Surge needs clarification first of all...
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Ithamar

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2011, 02:41:12 PM »
The 9th level manuever for Stone Dragon has no pre-reqs of other manuevers known, unlike basically every other high level manuever.

Perhaps a note on whether anything can ever trump Thicket of Blades.  There are a handful of higher level manuevers that indicate they do not provoke AoO's for movement.  Should even those still provoke AoO's from Thicket?
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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2011, 02:49:42 PM »
I know there are a couple minor typos like Desert Sun, or something.  Other than that, I'd have to look at my ToB again, because I remember seeing more.

There are random balance issues I'd like to tackle, but that's likely beyond the scope of errata.
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2011, 02:58:13 PM »
Gimme a bit, I'm going to sift through the classes chapter and find some inconsistencies.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Prime32

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2011, 02:59:38 PM »
The 9th level manuever for Stone Dragon has no pre-reqs of other manuevers known, unlike basically every other high level manuever.
Don't Stone Dragon maneuvers have low prereqs in general?
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2011, 03:17:09 PM »
The 9th level manuever for Stone Dragon has no pre-reqs of other manuevers known, unlike basically every other high level manuever.
Don't Stone Dragon maneuvers have low prereqs in general?

I always got the impression that Stone Dragon was the easiest of the styles to "master", seeing as any true martial adept can master it.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Ithamar

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2011, 03:30:09 PM »
Well the level 8 manuever, Adamantine Bones, has a pre-req of 3 other Stone Dragon manuevers.  Yet the level 9 manuever has no pre-reqs.  *shrug*
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oslecamo

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2011, 04:03:03 PM »
The 9th level manuever for Stone Dragon has no pre-reqs of other manuevers known, unlike basically every other high level manuever.
Don't Stone Dragon maneuvers have low prereqs in general?

It's also the weakest school since you need to be with your feet touching the ground(and you can't move at all with their stances). Being unable to use them while flying is a major restriction.

Also, what's exactly the problem with them needing to burn feats to learn the higher level stances? Feats are aparently extremely weak! I would expect ToB players to be delighted to be able to use their feats to get even more class features!  :rollseyes

Prime32

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2011, 04:16:16 PM »
It's also the weakest school since you need to be with your feet touching the ground(and you can't move at all with their stances). Being unable to use them while flying is a major restriction.
I forget, can you get away with having earth in your boots? Or was that Sand Shaper?

What about a clause that you can also use the maneuvers if you have the [Earth] subtype or while mounted on such a creature? It doesn't go far from the intent.
Maybe you must begin your turn on the ground? I can a Stone Dragon/Tiger Claw type firing themselves up with a pillar of earth to attack an enemy above them.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 04:25:00 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2011, 04:31:55 PM »
Exact quote
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[spoiler]
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DonQuixote

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2011, 04:37:54 PM »
I seem to remember that some of the maneuvers have wonky entries in their Initiation Action field.  Searing Blade, for instance, is a boost that, as written, takes 1 standard action to initiate...despite the lower- and higher-level versions of the same effect being swift actions.

Also, the earth serpent style shape of the naityan rakshasa has a stupid flaw in it.  The Style Shapes ability specifies that, if the rakshasa cannot maintain the stance associated with the form, it automatically reverts to its natural form.  Well, earth serpent puts the rakshasa in the strength of stone stance, which--like many Stone Dragon stances--ends if you move more than 5 feet.  Earth serpent also gives the rakshasa the ability to use the charging minotaur strike, which requires you to make a charge attack.  Something seems off about this combination.

These are just things off the top of my head.  I'll sift through again later.  It might also be worth it for such an errata project to make it clear exactly how Adaptive Style works--the whole "also refreshes maneuvers" thing wasn't very intuitive to me when I first looked at it.

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2011, 04:42:51 PM »
The Valkyrie's manuevers and stances need to be clarified / corrected.  For example, they are given IL 10, but they know a 7th level stance.  Perhaps it would be better to just give them the manuevers known & readied of a 10th level Swordsage?
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Hallack

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2011, 04:47:36 PM »
Placeholder - T'tosc

veekie

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2011, 05:01:56 PM »
For IHS, if it only works on effects with a duration of days or less, that should do the trick.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

awaken DM golem

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2011, 06:07:31 PM »
Most of the post-Core books, have sample NPCs or builds in them.

They all "need" errata.
I'd bet every single one has at least one biff.

These oughta just be ignored.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Chapter 1 Errata Discussion
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2011, 09:48:33 PM »
Most of the post-Core books, have sample NPCs or builds in them.

They all "need" errata.
I'd bet every single one has at least one biff.

These oughta just be ignored.
Seconded. The time spent fixing examples is better spent writing new books. There is just that many >.>

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The Crusader
[spoiler]
  • Under Weapons and Armor Proficiencies, no mention is made of a Crusader being proficient with a Tower Shield or not. WotC has been largely consistent with saying wether a class is or is not proficient with TSs.
I'd go with no (per Paladin, as Crusader's likened core class).

  • Clarifying the Maneuvers Readied section so it doesn't sound like you can only ever be granted 2 maneuvers each time you recover them.
Per Raw and reinforced for intent by "and a new pair of readied maneuvers is granted to you." you do in fact have 2 maneuvers granted each time you recover.

  • Altering the Stances Known to allow a Crusader access to level-appropriate stances instead of needing to spend feats.
Suggestion: Omittence of of irreplaceable line for "Stances may be swapped for other stances on a level that you are allowed to trade a maneuver. Trading a stance this way counts as your traded maneuver for that level (thus you cannot trade a maneuver and a stance upon taking your 4th level as a warblade).

  • Die Hard should have the "Even if you don't meet the prerequisites" clause, as has been the case for several other classes that gain specific bonus feats without needing their requirements.
Suggestion: Seconded.

  • Triple-check the Sample Encounter to ensure it is a legal build.
Ignore it.[/spoiler]

The Swordsage
[spoiler]
  • Obviously fix the "X6 at 1st level" (I can't believe WotC actually missed that in the original; IT'S BEFORE THE EFFING MANEUVERS!)
Suggestion: x4 at first level per all other classes.

  • Clarify the AC Bonus so that it works unarmored, and resolve the issue of if it stacks with a Mok's bonus or not.
Suggestion: It works unarmored, does not stack with Monk or other abilities that apply your wisdom modifier to AC.  ~Per Sage idea that multiple bonuses don't stack and this includes class features

  • Give a duration to the +2 saving throw bonus granted by Defensive Stance.
Suggestion: The benefit should end when you are no longer in a stance of your chosen discipline(s).

  • Again, check the sample encounter for errors.
See Crusader.
[/list][/spoiler]

Warblade
[spoiler]
  • Clarify if the Warblade is able to use a Full Attack on using his Recovery Mechanic or not (it's vague).
Melee Attack isn't defined no more than Attack Action. Clause of Swift Action prevents AoOs and other such things anyway.

  • Again, stance acquisition should be modified.
See Crusader.

  • Remove the stupidity that causes Weapon Aptitude to subtract from your Fighter levels. Seriously.
Suggestion: Weapon Aptitude is gained at the 2nd level (like ranger's animal compion or paladin's turn undead).
Clarification: You may use Martial Aptitude cannot be stupid abused - "change the designated weapon in any feat you have that required you to choose one weapon to apply it's bonus to."


  • Clarify the Bonus Feats (it should mention Ironheart Aura, but it only has the word Ironheart there).
Correction: Add the word "Aura".

  • Clarify if Battle Cunning works on enemies denied their Dex to AC for reasons other than being FFed or Flanked, and if that ability is Precision damage.
Suggestion: Ignore.
Who said it has to use Sneak Attack rules? IE it says it works for Flat-Footed or Flanked and is based on tactical advantage, why try to apply SA's rules of precise strikes to venerable areas to it when clearly effects such as Higher Ground's attack bonus having ZERO concerns on if critical hits work or not?


  • Reword Battle Skill (as-written, it provides the bonus when you are performing the Bull Rush etc).
Clarification: "any check made to oppose an enemy's X attempt" means exactly that. for example: The bonus applies to oppose an enemy's bull rush attempt, not a bonus to your bull rush attempt.

  • Check the sample encounter again.
Blah, ignore all NPC examples. If they are wrong chalk it up to DM Fiat if you are too lazy to fix them on the fly. Way to time consuming otherwise. >.>
[/spoiler]

Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Prime32

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2011, 10:19:31 PM »
Suggestion:
Quote from: Warblade
Weapon Aptitude (Ex): Your training with a wide range of weaponry and tactics gives you great skill with particular weapons. You qualify for feats that usually require a minimum number of fighter levels (such as Weapon Specialization) as if you had a fighter level equal to your warblade level -2 (minimum 0). For example, as a 6th-level warblade, you could take Weapon Specialization, since you're treated as being a 4th-level fighter for this purpose. These effective fighter levels stack with any actual fighter levels you have. Thus, a fighter 2/warblade 4 would also qualify for Weapon Specialization.

[...]
Granting it from 3rd level on would require rearranging the blocks of text to clarify that you can still do the weapon-swapping from lv1. Which wouldn't really work.


I seem to remember that some of the maneuvers have wonky entries in their Initiation Action field.  Searing Blade, for instance, is a boost that, as written, takes 1 standard action to initiate...despite the lower- and higher-level versions of the same effect being swift actions.
Definite error, I think it might have even got an official response. Boosts are always swift actions by definition.

Quote
Also, the earth serpent style shape of the naityan rakshasa has a stupid flaw in it.  The Style Shapes ability specifies that, if the rakshasa cannot maintain the stance associated with the form, it automatically reverts to its natural form.  Well, earth serpent puts the rakshasa in the strength of stone stance, which--like many Stone Dragon stances--ends if you move more than 5 feet.  Earth serpent also gives the rakshasa the ability to use the charging minotaur strike, which requires you to make a charge attack.  Something seems off about this combination.
Remove the "cannot maintain the stance" line entirely, or replace with "is always in this stance while in that form" or "cannot use any other stances while in that form"?
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 10:27:10 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Chapter 1 Errata Discussion
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2011, 10:51:02 PM »
I'd go with no (per Paladin, as Crusader's likened core class).
Agreed.

Quote
Per Raw and reinforced for intent by "and a new pair of readied maneuvers is granted to you." you do in fact have 2 maneuvers granted each time you recover.

I do not believe the intent was to gimp the Maneuver Recovery for the Crusader, as evidenced by the last lines stating you get more maneuvers granted.

Quote
Suggestion: Omittence of of irreplaceable line for "Stances may be swapped for other stances on a level that you are allowed to trade a maneuver. Trading a stance this way counts as your traded maneuver for that level (thus you cannot trade a maneuver and a stance upon taking your 4th level as a warblade).

That is a house rule, as it goes against the established Stances Known style. I meant how the FAQ recommended delaying the Crusader's Stances Known by 1 level.

Quote
Melee Attack isn't defined no more than Attack Action. Clause of Swift Action prevents AoOs and other such things anyway.

Still, there are two types of Attack Action (Full and Standard). Clarifying that you can use either would make the Warblade less confusing.

Quote
Suggestion: Weapon Aptitude is gained at the 2nd level (like ranger's animal compion or paladin's turn undead).
Clarification: You may use Martial Aptitude cannot be stupid abused - "change the designated weapon in any feat you have that required you to choose one weapon to apply it's bonus to."

Weapon Aptitude is clearly intended to be obtained at 1st level. But as written, a Fighter 4/Warblade 1 with Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization no longer qualifies for Weapon Specialization. That is what needs to be errataed.

Quote
Clarification: "any check made to oppose an enemy's X attempt" means exactly that. for example: The bonus applies to oppose an enemy's bull rush attempt, not a bonus to your bull rush attempt.

Except you oppose their check when you attempt to initiate one of those actions. It should say "you add your Int modifier to checks made to resist an enemy's Bull Rush, Trip, etc."


[spoiler][/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

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Re: Chapter 1 Errata Discussion
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2011, 07:30:33 AM »
That is a house rule, as it goes against the established Stances Known style. I meant how the FAQ recommended delaying the Crusader's Stances Known by 1 level.
Rename subform from "Errata" to "FAQ"?

Still, there are two types of Attack Action (Full and Standard). Clarifying that you can use either would make the Warblade less confusing.
I'm for both.

Weapon Aptitude is clearly intended to be obtained at 1st level. But as written, a Fighter 4/Warblade 1 with Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization no longer qualifies for Weapon Specialization. That is what needs to be errataed.
Prime suggested a minimum 0 add in. It works.

Quote
Clarification: "any check made to oppose an enemy's X attempt" means exactly that. for example: The bonus applies to oppose an enemy's bull rush attempt, not a bonus to your bull rush attempt.
Except you oppose their check when you attempt to initiate one of those actions. It should say "you add your Int modifier to checks made to resist an enemy's Bull Rush, Trip, etc."
That is what I mean, and what I read from the entry. The difference is you say resist rather than opposed roll, but both agree on enemy's bull rush attempt. Which ever makes it more readable works. *shurgs*
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

awaken DM golem

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Re: Chapter 1 Errata Discussion
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2011, 07:17:05 PM »
Most of the post-Core books, have sample NPCs or builds in them.

They all "need" errata.
I'd bet every single one has at least one biff.

These oughta just be ignored.

Seconded. The time spent fixing examples is better spent writing new books. There is just that many >.>


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EDIT --- maybe this would be better off, on the Organization thread (or it's own).