Author Topic: Tome of Battle  (Read 33268 times)

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Bozwevial

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #120 on: August 02, 2011, 08:06:54 PM »
Skill checks do not autofail on nat ones.
Right. Past a certain point, AC increases much more slowly than attack bonus. In either case, you're likely to have the numbers to hit no matter what, but making the roll a skill check removes the failure chance.

i say it is a broken mechanic because skills, ac and saves scale totally different. it's like making a skill check versus caster level check, that would be equally wrong. the special use of the ride skill with mounted combat, btw, falls under this category, too: skill check versus attack roll.
Yes, that would be true if AC and attack bonuses scaled at similar rates. However, the disparity between them is so great that turning an attack roll into a skill check actually has very little effect besides making the end result more reliable, since you remove that 5% chance of failure. You use them when you absolutely, positively need to succeed.

Kuroimaken

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #121 on: August 02, 2011, 08:15:12 PM »
Skill checks do not autofail on nat ones.
Right. Past a certain point, AC increases much more slowly than attack bonus. In either case, you're likely to have the numbers to hit no matter what, but making the roll a skill check removes the failure chance.

i say it is a broken mechanic because skills, ac and saves scale totally different. it's like making a skill check versus caster level check, that would be equally wrong. the special use of the ride skill with mounted combat, btw, falls under this category, too: skill check versus attack roll.
Yes, that would be true if AC and attack bonuses scaled at similar rates. However, the disparity between them is so great that turning an attack roll into a skill check actually has very little effect besides making the end result more reliable, since you remove that 5% chance of failure. You use them when you absolutely, positively need to succeed.

Unless you're routinely making touch attacks against flatfooted opponents, but either way, yeah, the difference is relatively minimal.
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[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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zugschef

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #122 on: August 02, 2011, 08:35:32 PM »
well, for me it's still horrible gamedesign.

Kuroimaken

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #123 on: August 02, 2011, 08:47:15 PM »
Actually, unless you obssessively control how much you get to add to a given roll, the very concept of DCs are horrible gamedesign.

If you start changing that, then it's not the same game anymore. It's easier to work with what we got.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


SorO_Lost

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #124 on: August 02, 2011, 10:37:35 PM »
I'm not sure about this new tangent at all, it's not even based on anything.

Skill Check vs Save is the Intimidate Skill, not ToB.
Skill Check vs AC for Tiger Claw stuff is for additional bonuses that still require you to hit using your Attack bonuses as normal.
Skill Check as AC is the Ride Skill, not ToB and it isn't your AC just for attacks against your mount.

There is no Skill to Hit in the ToB and as for hating the d20 system, well why are you here?
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

snakeman830

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #125 on: August 02, 2011, 11:57:48 PM »
I do think, though, that for the Tiger Claw manuvers requiring a Jump check (minus Sudden Leap), that the DC shouldn't be doubled just because you haven't moved 20ft.  You're not really jumping, so why should that increase apply?
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
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[/spoiler]

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SorO_Lost

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #126 on: August 03, 2011, 02:51:04 AM »
I do think, though, that for the Tiger Claw manuvers requiring a Jump check (minus Sudden Leap), that the DC shouldn't be doubled just because you haven't moved 20ft.  You're not really jumping, so why should that increase apply?
Agreed, as I said here
When something states it is the DC of your check, then it is the DC of the check (duh). But Feral Death Blow says the DC is your opponent's AC while Sudden Leap says the distance you can move is based on your Jump check (aka see Jump skill for distance covered by your check)
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #127 on: August 03, 2011, 02:22:26 PM »
I took care of that a while ago. Sudden Leap follows the doubling rules, the rest only care about the target's AC. Why are we having this conversation if that was what I all ready did?


[spoiler][/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #128 on: August 03, 2011, 04:36:54 PM »
I took care of that a while ago. Sudden Leap follows the doubling rules, the rest only care about the target's AC. Why are we having this conversation if that was what I all ready did?
I haven't read page 1(?) since seven pages ago.

I think we're on PrCs, off the top of my head.
BoB: doesn't advance IL as a Marital Class. Mindfil under Advancing IL in the PrC chapter doesn't even say all PrCs here fully advance IL.
Eternal: FYI your Blade guide isn't a real creature (it has no ability scores). AlsoKnowledge directly states your Guide can make Knowledge checks, pretty damn sure it doesn't need to be Trained. Typo aside the 2nd paragraph seems to mean you gain the benefit of an extra maneuver known X times a day.
JPM: Needs Spellcraft (is that the skill I'm thinking of?) and Empowering/Quickened Strike shouldn't increase casting time. Using these abilities doesn't require you to know the feat nor is the metamagic cost applied, the spells simply gain the benefit thereof and it would seem intent wise they shouldn't increasing casting time.
MoN: The bonus from strike types known should change though out the day rather than being set in the morning and immediately swapped.
Shadow Sun Ninja: Srsly this PrC sucks, with WotC you can be sure of a few things.
If it has the word "wizard" in it, it's a rockstar, just jaming out and kicking ass.
If it has the word "ninja" in it, its a rock, just laying there being worthless.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #129 on: August 03, 2011, 04:44:02 PM »
I think we're on PrCs, off the top of my head.

Actually, we are on the Nine Swords themselves (the Legacy items).

Quote
Eternal: Typo aside the 2nd paragraph seems to mean you gain the benefit of an extra maneuver known X times a day.

I'll review that paragraph and see what needs to be clarified. Thanks for pointing it out.

Quote
Shadow Sun Ninja: Srsly this PrC sucks, with WotC you can be sure of a few things.
If it has the word "wizard" in it, it's a rockstar, just jaming out and kicking ass.
If it has the word "ninja" in it, its a rock, just laying there being worthless.


Off-topic, but I disagree. I have defended that PrC in the past. The abilities can be put to very good use if you use them in the right combination, but it eats up your Swifts like you wouldn't believe.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Risada

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #130 on: August 03, 2011, 05:06:42 PM »
I would like to point out a small problem I faced sometime ago: I had a hobgoblin warblade use Charging Minotaur against the party's Crusader, using Thicket of Blades. Thicket of Blades states that all movement in your threatened area provoke AoOs, but Charging Minotaur (and other charge maneuvers) do not provoke AoOs when moving.

Should Thicket of Blades trigger on this situation? I ruled no at the time, but I want to know what you guys think about this.

Since no one replied to this, I assume the way I ruled is correct, but I think this is something worth going back to maneuvers and clarify on Thicket of Blades...

SorO_Lost

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #131 on: August 03, 2011, 05:10:42 PM »
I think we're on PrCs, off the top of my head.

Actually, we are on the Nine Swords themselves (the Legacy items).
Oh. You know, as the original author of Building a Legacy Weapon For Dummies, you would think I have input there. But no, not really. I just stole the abilities the best I could think of and went with that.

I'll review that paragraph and see what needs to be clarified. Thanks for pointing it out.
You gain an extra maneuver (immediately granted if a crusader) and at the end of the encounter you forget it. The ability can be used an extra time per whatever levels. Yeah, pretty sure it boils down to an extra maneuver for an encounter X times a day.

Off-topic, but I disagree. I have defended that PrC in the past. The abilities can be put to very good use if you use them in the right combination, but it eats up your Swifts like you wouldn't believe.
My take on it.
[spoiler]The healing is lame and wands do the same job without wasting levels, the cold resist sucks since you can permanently gain immunity to fire/cold and 2d6 is out scaled at level 3 and remains fundamentally worthless at level 7. I'd rather not Blind my teammates and prior to the Monk's super concealment ability I felt the double blind means bonuses ability was cool, but I can name a dozen other better classes as a 5 level dip and now I just don't care for it at all. The fun capstone ability of become an NPC pretty much describes who this class is intended for.[/spoiler]
But if you can sell it to me better than that I'm interested.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #132 on: August 03, 2011, 05:15:29 PM »
Since no one replied to this, I assume the way I ruled is correct, but I think this is something worth going back to maneuvers and clarify on Thicket of Blades...

I don't think it would, since Thicket says:

Quote
Your foes provoke this attack before leaving the area you threaten.

Unless the Crusader had a melee reach longer than 5ft, Charging into his threatened reach does not provoke. Now, if the Warblade charged past him to hit someone else, I'd say Thicket would take precedence due to being a higher level maneuver.




Would anyone object to adding a maneuver level-based or opposed IL-based exception to Thicket?

About Shadowsun Ninja: Taking it to PMs to avoid cluttering the thread (since this is on viability).


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Risada

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #133 on: August 03, 2011, 05:28:10 PM »
I don't think it would, since Thicket says:

Quote
Your foes provoke this attack before leaving the area you threaten.

Unless the Crusader had a melee reach longer than 5ft, Charging into his threatened reach does not provoke. Now, if the Warblade charged past him to hit someone else, I'd say Thicket would take precedence due to being a higher level maneuver.

The crusader had a spiked chain...

So, Thicket of Blades is THAT awesome, huh  :rollseyes


Would anyone object to adding a maneuver level-based or opposed IL-based exception to Thicket?

I see no problem with it.


Garryl

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #134 on: August 03, 2011, 07:53:26 PM »
Since no one replied to this, I assume the way I ruled is correct, but I think this is something worth going back to maneuvers and clarify on Thicket of Blades...

I don't think it would, since Thicket says:

Quote
Your foes provoke this attack before leaving the area you threaten.

Unless the Crusader had a melee reach longer than 5ft, Charging into his threatened reach does not provoke. Now, if the Warblade charged past him to hit someone else, I'd say Thicket would take precedence due to being a higher level maneuver.




Would anyone object to adding a maneuver level-based or opposed IL-based exception to Thicket?

I'd prefer something like a +/-/default arrangement (which is an absolutely horrible name for what I'm thinking of, but it's all that comes to mind). Unfortunately, its scope requires it to be a systemic change rather than something specific to ToB's maneuvers.
[spoiler]
Basically, any time two absolute statements that are exceptions to the normal rules disagree, whichever applies is based on how many of them are functioning, or the default (normal rules) if there's an equal amount in opposition. Naturally, effects that apply an absolute and specify that they override other absolutes ignore the overridden absolutes when checking this. (Eg: "This damage cannot be prevented by any means, even by resistances or immunities" would not be prevented no matter how many ways you had to be immune or resistant to it.)

In the above case of Thicket vs. No AoO charging (say, War Leader's Charge), there would indeed be an AoO provoked under this system. +1 provoking from Thicket, -1 provoking from the charging maneuver, resulting in the default of AoOs being provoked for leaving a threatened space.

Some other examples:

 - Thicket vs. 5 foot step: +1 Thicket, -1 5' step, default is AoO.
 - Thicket vs. Boulder Roll + Tumble: +1 Thicket, -1 Boulder Roll, -1 Tumble, so no AoO.
 - Thicket vs. Cover or Total Concealment: Cover and Total Concealment don't stop AoOs from being provoked, they just prevent you from taking them. This is already the case according to the wording in the SRD.

And, a few more complicated interactions...
 - Thicket w/ spiked chain-style reach + Hold the Line vs. War Leader's Charge: When the charger enters your first threatened space, Thicket is irrelevant (charger isn't leaving a threatened space), so +1 Hold the Line, -1 War Leader's Charge results in the default of no AoO for entering (but not leaving) a threatened space. When the charger enters your second threatened space, both Thicket and Hold the Line apply, so it's +2-1, and an AoO is provoked.
 - Thicket w/ normal reach (threatening at 10' but not 5') + Hold the Line vs. War Leader's Charge: As above, no AoO for entering the threatened space at 10', but no AoO either for moving closer since while Thicket counts (leaving a threatened space), Hold the Line doesn't (not entering an area you threaten).

[/spoiler]
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General listing of my homebrew.
Links to things I've worked on
[spoiler]
Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round.
The Opposed Checks Handbook - Under construction.
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #135 on: August 03, 2011, 08:34:49 PM »
I'd prefer something like a +/-/default arrangement (which is an absolutely horrible name for what I'm thinking of, but it's all that comes to mind). Unfortunately, its scope requires it to be a systemic change rather than something specific to ToB's maneuvers.
[spoiler]
Basically, any time two absolute statements that are exceptions to the normal rules disagree, whichever applies is based on how many of them are functioning, or the default (normal rules) if there's an equal amount in opposition. Naturally, effects that apply an absolute and specify that they override other absolutes ignore the overridden absolutes when checking this. (Eg: "This damage cannot be prevented by any means, even by resistances or immunities" would not be prevented no matter how many ways you had to be immune or resistant to it.)

In the above case of Thicket vs. No AoO charging (say, War Leader's Charge), there would indeed be an AoO provoked under this system. +1 provoking from Thicket, -1 provoking from the charging maneuver, resulting in the default of AoOs being provoked for leaving a threatened space.

Some other examples:

 - Thicket vs. 5 foot step: +1 Thicket, -1 5' step, default is AoO.
 - Thicket vs. Boulder Roll + Tumble: +1 Thicket, -1 Boulder Roll, -1 Tumble, so no AoO.
 - Thicket vs. Cover or Total Concealment: Cover and Total Concealment don't stop AoOs from being provoked, they just prevent you from taking them. This is already the case according to the wording in the SRD.

And, a few more complicated interactions...
 - Thicket w/ spiked chain-style reach + Hold the Line vs. War Leader's Charge: When the charger enters your first threatened space, Thicket is irrelevant (charger isn't leaving a threatened space), so +1 Hold the Line, -1 War Leader's Charge results in the default of no AoO for entering (but not leaving) a threatened space. When the charger enters your second threatened space, both Thicket and Hold the Line apply, so it's +2-1, and an AoO is provoked.
 - Thicket w/ normal reach (threatening at 10' but not 5') + Hold the Line vs. War Leader's Charge: As above, no AoO for entering the threatened space at 10', but no AoO either for moving closer since while Thicket counts (leaving a threatened space), Hold the Line doesn't (not entering an area you threaten).

[/spoiler]


So check to see if they cancel, and if not, then resort to the rest of the rules? Sounds good, but that would fall squarely under house rules, and I've been very hesitant about that. I'm fine with it personally, but it really hurts the image this project should be projecting.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Garryl

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #136 on: August 03, 2011, 08:59:25 PM »
So check to see if they cancel, and if not, then resort to the rest of the rules? Sounds good, but that would fall squarely under house rules, and I've been very hesitant about that. I'm fine with it personally, but it really hurts the image this project should be projecting.

Exactly. Hence why I said it was beyond the scope of this project.
A Guide to Free D&D - A resource of free, official D&D resources on the web.
General listing of my homebrew.
Links to things I've worked on
[spoiler]
Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round.
The Opposed Checks Handbook - Under construction.
Adaptations Handbook - Under construction.
[/spoiler]

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #137 on: August 03, 2011, 09:03:12 PM »
So check to see if they cancel, and if not, then resort to the rest of the rules? Sounds good, but that would fall squarely under house rules, and I've been very hesitant about that. I'm fine with it personally, but it really hurts the image this project should be projecting.

Exactly. Hence why I said it was beyond the scope of this project.

Note to self: Write that down as a permanent house rule for my campaigns. My players play Magic primarily, so rules like this are very easy for us to learn.


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Bloody Initiate

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #138 on: August 08, 2011, 07:56:31 AM »
Quote
Page 9 - Crusader Weapons and Armor Proficiencies [Addition]
Add to the end, "(except tower shields)".

Any particular reason for this? Seems an oddly specific and nitpicky thing. Who cares if they can use Tower shields?
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #139 on: August 08, 2011, 02:26:08 PM »
Quote
Page 9 - Crusader Weapons and Armor Proficiencies [Addition]
Add to the end, "(except tower shields)".

Any particular reason for this? Seems an oddly specific and nitpicky thing. Who cares if they can use Tower shields?

Because every other class in the game that specifies proficiency with shields includes either an exception to Tower Shields (anything that isn't Fighter), or mentions being proficient with them (Fighter).


[spoiler][/spoiler]