Author Topic: Tome of Battle  (Read 33273 times)

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SorO_Lost

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2011, 03:26:31 PM »
Except that it is possible to be more than 10ft away from the ground if you try to cross a lake. I dunno, I'm just being picky here.
Oooh I see what you mean. Change "ground" to solid & liquids as it mentions several times before hand.


I view TO as a thing to avoid when designing something.
Well what is the TO part really? The infinite loop? I'm reminded of Empower's interaction with Maximize. IE Empower does state it improves all variable effects (akin to the stance's effect based on a variable value), if something comes along and removes said variable value which is what Maximize does (akin to no 1s, w/e), you still have to roll for the effect. Fixed by examples else where.

Except as-is, it fluctuates between healing two characters or you and all allies in 30ft. There's a distinct difference between this and the d2 Crusader. One is clearly stupid, and the other is possibly intentional.
Still don't see that. Target says you and one ally. Description says you and one ally. we're talking Aura of Triumph right?

But I agree that it is Ex, just for the record.
The strike is Ex.

What I'm saying is the Heal spell isn't. Take my more recent example: Mental Pinnacle.Here you are given power points, powers known and psionic manifesting to use them but are prevented from all forms of spellcasting.

If you are correct in X granting Y changes Y's type to X's. The granted power points are not psionic, they are magical. the powers granted are not psionic based, they are spell based. The block of spellcasting would then block your magical power points, magical powers known, and magical ability to manifest your magical powers.
Or you know, you're half-right. Granted effects retain their types. Mental Pinnacle bestows psionic abilities (not magical), Assume Supernatural Ability bestows Supernatural effects (not pick one su ability and change it to a magical spell or w/e), Wild shape gives you Ex abilities (not Su versions of Ex abilities) and when something says you gain the benefit of a spell cast by someone you gain the frigging benefit of a spell cast by someone, not some made up bullshit.

It probably needs clarification (such as yes a spell cast by someone is magical, yes this benefit allows a save for half, no this doesn't heal ability burn, no you didn't cast it so no AoO, etc.), see Shifting Defense right?

Well, the thing is people will be expecting this to get errata'ed and at minimum clarified on what it can and can't remove. If we leave it as-is, it makes it look like we aren't trying. If we do errata it, and people don't agree with our discussion, then they will just house rule it. Not that they all ready aren't doing that, but it would be nice to have the House Rules on the same page in regards to IHS.
So make it and we'll all chime our input over there and see if we can get a decent mash up out of things.

Well, being a Negima fan means I'm partial towards letting Setting Sun adepts throw things eight times their height.
Anyone up for disagreeing then?

Well, there are, but they are rare (Evasive Reflexes+Thicket of Blades for starters).
Hmm, wouldn't hurt to change it to intimidate I don't think.

There is someone out there who thinks a Monk is playable with 15PB. I'm not putting it past Humanity to misinterpret that stance.
I misinterpret your post. PB15 Monks are very playable.
As NPCs. :D

I'll offer some input on Shadow Hand later tonight or so. It is good that no one is posting thus we are doing a fine job, or bad because everyone isn't joining in cus we suck? Maybe since the 1st topic is ToB, a knee jerk banned book, there simply is less people with strong opinions about it. If so, good choice in which to cut our teeth on.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Bauglir

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2011, 04:52:09 PM »
The strike is Ex.

What I'm saying is the Heal spell isn't. Take my more recent example: Mental Pinnacle.Here you are given power points, powers known and psionic manifesting to use them but are prevented from all forms of spellcasting.

If you are correct in X granting Y changes Y's type to X's. The granted power points are not psionic, they are magical. the powers granted are not psionic based, they are spell based. The block of spellcasting would then block your magical power points, magical powers known, and magical ability to manifest your magical powers.
Or you know, you're half-right. Granted effects retain their types. Mental Pinnacle bestows psionic abilities (not magical), Assume Supernatural Ability bestows Supernatural effects (not pick one su ability and change it to a magical spell or w/e), Wild shape gives you Ex abilities (not Su versions of Ex abilities) and when something says you gain the benefit of a spell cast by someone you gain the frigging benefit of a spell cast by someone, not some made up bullshit.

It probably needs clarification (such as yes a spell cast by someone is magical, yes this benefit allows a save for half, no this doesn't heal ability burn, no you didn't cast it so no AoO, etc.), see Shifting Defense right?

The analogy isn't quite so simple. It doesn't give you a heal spell. It gives you the benefit of a heal spell. So you aren't casting a spell; you look at what a heal would do, and then the strike does the same thing (except any detrimental effects, because it says "benefit"; an undead would not be affected by this ability, for instance). But it isn't the same effect, and it's not noted as inheriting the method of accomplishing the benefit of a heal spell (being a spell). So it's extraordinary.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2011, 09:04:17 PM »
Well what is the TO part really? The infinite loop? I'm reminded of Empower's interaction with Maximize. IE Empower does state it improves all variable effects (akin to the stance's effect based on a variable value), if something comes along and removes said variable value which is what Maximize does (akin to no 1s, w/e), you still have to roll for the effect. Fixed by examples else where.

While the loop itself is a concern, the TO portion is that you can "reroll" when you take average damage. I guess the problem is more of CC's issue than the Bo9S'.

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Still don't see that. Target says you and one ally. Description says you and one ally. we're talking Aura of Triumph right?

OK, found the problem: I had somehow mixed up Rallying Strike with Aura of Triumph.

Quote
The strike is Ex.

What I'm saying is the Heal spell isn't. Take my more recent example: Mental Pinnacle.Here you are given power points, powers known and psionic manifesting to use them but are prevented from all forms of spellcasting.

If you are correct in X granting Y changes Y's type to X's. The granted power points are not psionic, they are magical. the powers granted are not psionic based, they are spell based. The block of spellcasting would then block your magical power points, magical powers known, and magical ability to manifest your magical powers.
Or you know, you're half-right. Granted effects retain their types. Mental Pinnacle bestows psionic abilities (not magical), Assume Supernatural Ability bestows Supernatural effects (not pick one su ability and change it to a magical spell or w/e), Wild shape gives you Ex abilities (not Su versions of Ex abilities) and when something says you gain the benefit of a spell cast by someone you gain the frigging benefit of a spell cast by someone, not some made up bullshit.

So should we change it to Su and leave the wording alone, or should we leave it as Ex and change the wording so it doesn't "cast a spell"?

Quote
So make it and we'll all chime our input over there and see if we can get a decent mash up out of things.

K.
The analogy isn't quite so simple. It doesn't give you a heal spell. It gives you the benefit of a heal spell. So you aren't casting a spell; you look at what a heal would do, and then the strike does the same thing (except any detrimental effects, because it says "benefit"; an undead would not be affected by this ability, for instance). But it isn't the same effect, and it's not noted as inheriting the method of accomplishing the benefit of a heal spell (being a spell). So it's extraordinary.

See above. If we make it Su, it removes one hell of a headache (Antimagic negating the effects of a spell, despite the source being Ex). But if we leave it Ex and change the wording (merely reprinting the spell's text, altering so it doesn't mention being a spell), then we retain the original effect without risking it being negated.


Really, why they didn't just say "The target heals 10hp per Initiator level you possess" is beyond me.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2011, 10:45:17 PM »
Really, why they didn't just say "The target heals 10hp per Initiator level you possess" is beyond me.
Because Heal does more than just give HP. Marking it supernatural should quell the arguments (which are based primary off SoRV healing ability burn) but then we would still present misinterpretation. If they cannot accept Ex giving magic then they would never accept Su giving magic. Someone would wine about if you provoke an AoO for using the strike, someone else would claim it's Su, etc. all because of personal limitations of understanding.

Word revision may be a better solution but you can't spell things out better than the benefit of a spell cast by a spellcaster. So where to go from here?
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2011, 11:26:25 PM »
Really, why they didn't just say "The target heals 10hp per Initiator level you possess" is beyond me.
Because Heal does more than just give HP. Marking it supernatural should quell the arguments (which are based primary off SoRV healing ability burn) but then we would still present misinterpretation. If they cannot accept Ex giving magic then they would never accept Su giving magic. Someone would wine about if you provoke an AoO for using the strike, someone else would claim it's Su, etc. all because of personal limitations of understanding.

Word revision may be a better solution but you can't spell things out better than the benefit of a spell cast by a spellcaster. So where to go from here?

I'm going to be honest: Whenever someone in my campaigns used that strike, they almost never cared about the rest of the Heal spell's text. They didn't even realize that it can cure Ability Damage, poison, or disease, remove blindness.

I don't think the strike actually needs all of that extra baggage. The average player who reads that strike is going to be excited over healing 150HP. The more experienced players will be a little irritated by this, but it's still a good maneuver even without those extras.



Though if you find this to be a horrible idea, I'm not going to push it.


Edit: Should we get more opinions on this?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2011, 11:30:07 PM by Sinfire Titan »


[spoiler][/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #45 on: May 16, 2011, 12:03:10 AM »
Though if you find this to be a horrible idea, I'm not going to push it.
Actually I don't. I do however think the choice to nix everything but healing HP is, well.

As you said.
Edit: Should we get more opinions on this?
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2011, 12:14:22 AM »
Though if you find this to be a horrible idea, I'm not going to push it.
Actually I don't. I do however think the choice to nix everything but healing HP is, well.

As you said.
Edit: Should we get more opinions on this?

All right, what parts of the Heal spell should stay? Ability restoration? Should it still pose a threat to undead?


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Bauglir

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #47 on: May 16, 2011, 12:52:11 AM »
I'd suggest that anything that affects numbers should stay, things that affect conditions should be removed, just as a kind of arbitrary distinction to save on space. So keep ability damage healing and suchlike. Not strongly opinionated on that one. Also, since I strongly doubt that interactions with undead were considered when writing it (I mean, who has an undead party member, right? Undead are evil![/parody), it's probably best not to carry that over and let them heal from it just fine. It's not like they don't have hit point maintenance problems to begin with thanks to their absent Con score (barring Unholy Toughness-having individuals).
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #48 on: May 16, 2011, 01:04:21 AM »
Though if you find this to be a horrible idea, I'm not going to push it.
Actually I don't. I do however think the choice to nix everything but healing HP is, well.

As you said.
Edit: Should we get more opinions on this?

All right, what parts of the Heal spell should stay? Ability restoration? Should it still pose a threat to undead?
Benefit's usage over "effect" seems to imply the negative aspects (Harming undead) wouldn't apply. That being said the save halves should remain if we keep it spell based. For 1%'s sake that somewhere someone has something that needs to refuse healing. I'm sure I've seen inverted heal affects before and since the hp loss aspect isn't part of nor the result of Heal its self, the result should HP loss.

SoRV is the only strike maneuver capable of healing ability damage, removal of that is loss of the ToB being able to cure ability damage at all. I'm a little reluctant to spit in the face of both that benefit and author intent of granting ability healing (and other affects) with the choice of Heal over simply noting an amount of HP healed.

It would seem, if you wanted to drop the inherent weaknesses of being spell based, to create that Ex only based affect, while still preserving Heal's other affects would be to type out the effect into the strike rather than coping out to a spell cast by someone. with this rewording you can incorporate Bauglir's suggestion of healing undead (as the rest of the strikes can) as well as drop the other curative effects.

If that idea appeals to you I strongly suggest to use that min/max foresight and nix healing ability burn, even though psionics has dozens of ways to give you infinite power points, I'm sure that is on someone's docket and best deal with it now. Perhaps with a clause of "Anything that alters magical healing and Conjuration(Healing) effects apply to this maneuver's curative effects" would work. And it's not positive energy based :)
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #49 on: May 16, 2011, 01:30:37 AM »
Quote
Death Mark: Remove the "See Text" line in the Saving Throw, as there's nothing in the text indicating something could be denied a save.
Actually, from context, I think they originally intended for the creature you hit to have no save(what with having already had an attack roll and being the origin for the blast)
Quote
Aura of Chaos: Should we fix the stance so the d2 Crusader doesn't work?
Limit rerolling any given dice once?
Quote
Crusader's Strike: Should we mess with this? Like, at all? I'm personally for infinite out-of-combat healing, but I know it's a sore-spot for less-experienced DMs. Additionally, should this have the Su tag or not (I'm against it, but there's people out there who think it should).
Intent seems to be against infinite healing(whatever we 'CO weirdos' do with it) at this level, but Su would seem to gel better. Heck, do that to all the healing strikes and you cut out the bulk of the noise. It doesn't really change anything in most games unless AMFs are a daily feature.

Quote
All of the throwing maneuvers: Should they be restricted by size category? Almost all of them work off of Trip attempts, which can't be used on creatures too much bigger than yourself, but the maneuvers make no mention of this.
Clarify to make it use it's own mechanic(which would be surprisingly similar to Trip)?

Quote
Stone Dragon
Take out the 'on the ground' restriction is my personal preference, but its really not that strong as to warrant that sort of limiter.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 01:38:22 AM by veekie »
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Prime32

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #50 on: May 16, 2011, 07:25:14 AM »
Quote
Stone Dragon
Take out the 'on the ground' restriction is my personal preference, but its really not that strong as to warrant that sort of limiter.
As I said, changing to "you must begin your turn on the ground" opens up more options without stripping the original flavour. Plenty of people would be annoyed if that was just taken out. ("This stuff is being written by munchkins who can't stand not being the best at everything!") Maybe "on a solid surface".

As for the heal Strike, what about "this strike restores hit points regardless of whether its target is powered by positive or negative energy, but cannot cure any condition which cannot be remedied by a heal spell."?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 12:08:41 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Littha

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #51 on: May 16, 2011, 10:11:38 AM »
I would leave all the healing strikes as Ex, a large part of their value is that they are basically the only ways of healing without magic (in an AMF or dead magic zone especially).

I also wouldn't touch aura of chaos, it works exactly how it should and one TO trick that will never see actual play shouldn't warrant a change.

oslecamo

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #52 on: May 16, 2011, 01:33:21 PM »
Quote
Stone Dragon
Take out the 'on the ground' restriction is my personal preference, but its really not that strong as to warrant that sort of limiter.
As I said, changing to "you must begin your turn on the ground" opens up more options without stripping the original flavour. Plenty of people would be annoyed if that was just taken out. ("This stuff is being written by munchkins who can't stand not being the best at everything!") Maybe "on a solid surface".
Look, people who want irrelevant penalties are already claiming you can put ground in your shoes and call it a day. "On a solid surface" or anything equally vague will  still lessen the flavour and munchkins will still find ways to bypass it, probably even easier (I put solid metal plates under my shoes nyar nyar!)

As for the heal Strike, what about "this strike restores hit points regardless of whether its target is powered by positive or negative energy, but cannot cure any condition which cannot be remedied by a heal spell."?
Because then you cannot declare that lich covered by buffs your ally and burn it with the power of your faith. :p

veekie

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #53 on: May 16, 2011, 05:04:20 PM »
Quote
Stone Dragon
Take out the 'on the ground' restriction is my personal preference, but its really not that strong as to warrant that sort of limiter.
As I said, changing to "you must begin your turn on the ground" opens up more options without stripping the original flavour. Plenty of people would be annoyed if that was just taken out. ("This stuff is being written by munchkins who can't stand not being the best at everything!") Maybe "on a solid surface".
Personal favored intermediate solution, "You must be in contact with at least 1 pound of stone or earth."

Quote
As for the heal Strike, what about "this strike restores hit points regardless of whether its target is powered by positive or negative energy, but cannot cure any condition which cannot be remedied by a heal spell."?
I favor copying the Heal spell straight and just skip the mention of negative energy or the living only limitation for healing.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

snakeman830

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #54 on: May 19, 2011, 03:51:20 PM »
I favor copying the Heal spell straight and just skip the mention of negative energy or the living only limitation for healing.
Seconded

As for SoRV and Abuluty Burn, I did retract my statement that it would heal that (still not "natural healing"), although the entire manuver (as it currently is) is completely nonmagical.  If quoting the exact text to argue a point makes me a troll, then this is site has more trolls than 4chan.

Iron Heart Surge is an easy one:

"This manuver can remove any status or effect affecting the Initiator (and only the Initiator), so long as he is still allowed to move and use standard actions.  If he is still exposed to the source of the effect at the beginning of his next turn, he once again suffers its effects as normal."

This will, for example, let a Warblade to shake off a fear effect or Dominate spell, but not blot out the sun (although he could ignore any penalties associated with a weakness to the sun he has for 1 round).
« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 03:56:50 PM by snakeman830 »
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Bauglir

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #55 on: May 19, 2011, 05:41:08 PM »
Strictly speaking, status isn't a defined term within the rules, and there's a whole laundry list of conditions you should probably exclude (such as ability damaged, etc). I mean, depending on how nice a thing you think Warblades should get.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

snakeman830

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #56 on: May 19, 2011, 06:37:48 PM »
Point taken.  Perhaps it should be changed to "condition"?  That is actually defined in the rules.  Ability Damage/Drain is excluded then.

Although I do feel that vampire Warblades should be able to use it to buy themselves an additional round of sunlight exposure before dying violently, and that isn't considered a "condition".
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

RobbyPants

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #57 on: May 20, 2011, 11:54:23 AM »
Actually, "conditions" does include a lot of things, including Ability Damage and Drain, as well as some weird shit like Blown Away, Grappled, Incorporeal, Invisible, Pinned, Stable, and dead.

A better approach would be defining what exactly you can get rid of.  My list would be:

  • Blinded
  • Confused
  • Cowering
  • Dazed
  • Dazzled
  • Deafened
  • Entangled
  • Exhausted
  • Fascinated
  • Fatigued
  • Flat-Footed
  • Frightened
  • Grappling
  • Helpless
  • Nauseated
  • Panicked
  • Paralyzed
  • Petrified
  • Pinned
  • Shaken
  • Sickened
  • Stunned
  • Turned

Although, without a note saying otherwise, some of these conditions prevent you from using IHS in the first place.  A few of these are debatable.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2011, 11:58:01 AM by RobbyPants »
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snakeman830

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #58 on: May 20, 2011, 12:31:51 PM »
Good point.  Things like dead, obviously, shouldn't be removable, nor should Helpless (that's brought on by some other situation).

Your list does, however, not include Immobilized (Tome of Magic made that one a condition), which really should be removeable (only effect is that you can't leave your square(s)).  Also, it might be a good idea to let it prematurely end spells with a duration.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2011, 12:33:26 PM by snakeman830 »
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #59 on: May 20, 2011, 09:34:48 PM »
Actually, "conditions" does include a lot of things, including Ability Damage and Drain, as well as some weird shit like Blown Away, Grappled, Incorporeal, Invisible, Pinned, Stable, and dead.

A better approach would be defining what exactly you can get rid of.  My list would be:

  • Blinded
  • Confused
  • Cowering
  • Dazed
  • Dazzled
  • Deafened
  • Entangled
  • Exhausted
  • Fascinated
  • Fatigued
  • Flat-Footed
  • Frightened
  • Grappling
  • Helpless
  • Nauseated
  • Panicked
  • Paralyzed
  • Petrified
  • Pinned
  • Shaken
  • Sickened
  • Stunned
  • Turned

Although, without a note saying otherwise, some of these conditions prevent you from using IHS in the first place.  A few of these are debatable.
You need to be able to take actions to initiate IHS, and those deny you actions.



This brings up another good question: Can a Martial Adept initiate maneuvers/stances while grappling/grappled/pinned/pinning? The FAQ has ruled against it when the adept is on the receiving end, but a Stone Dragon stance works when the adept is the one doing the grappling.


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