Author Topic: Tome of Battle  (Read 33265 times)

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Prime32

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #60 on: May 20, 2011, 10:32:28 PM »
Iron Heart Surge is an easy one:

"This manuver can remove any status or effect affecting the Initiator (and only the Initiator), so long as he is still allowed to move and use standard actions.  If he is still exposed to the source of the effect at the beginning of his next turn, he once again suffers its effects as normal."

This will, for example, let a Warblade to shake off a fear effect or Dominate spell, but not blot out the sun (although he could ignore any penalties associated with a weakness to the sun he has for 1 round).
What about this?

Choose any negative effect or condition with a duration of 1 or more rounds, or a negative racial trait (eg. the special weakness of a vampire). The initiator is unaffected by that condition for 1 round. In addition, if it can be dispelled then the effect is targeted by a greater dispel magic effect with a caster level equal to your initiator level, as long as it is within range.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2011, 10:38:01 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #61 on: May 20, 2011, 10:56:30 PM »
Although, without a note saying otherwise, some of these conditions prevent you from using IHS in the first place.  A few of these are debatable.
You need to be able to take actions to initiate IHS, and those deny you actions.
That's why I made a point of mentioning that unless we say otherwise, some of those conditions will prevent you from using IHS.  I wouldn't mind seeing a higher level version that would let you initiate it regardless, but that's outside the scope of errata. ;)
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snakeman830

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #62 on: May 20, 2011, 11:16:38 PM »
Well, I seem to remember a Tiger Claw manuver that let you attack with any weapon in a grapple.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #63 on: May 21, 2011, 09:50:18 PM »
OK, so for starters, this is the new SoRV:
Quote
When you hit with this strike, select either yourself or an ally within 10ft. This strike immediately ends any and all of the following adverse conditions affecting either you or the chosen ally: ability damage, blinded, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafened, diseased, disabled, dying, exhausted, fatigued, feebleminded, insanity, nauseated, sickened, stunned, and poisoned. It also cures 10 hit points of damage per level initiator level you possess, to a maximum of 150 points at 15th level.

You cannot initiate this maneuver to remove the Stunned or Dazed condition from yourself, as you must be able to take actions in order to initiate this maneuver.

The red text is still a concern of mine. Should the level cap stay for this maneuver or not? This IS a 9th level strike we are talking about.

And this is my proposition for IHS:

Quote
Iron Heart Surge [Clarification]

Iron Heart Surge is capable of removing any one of the following conditions each time it is initiated:

Blinded, Confused, Dazzled, Deafened, Energy Drained, Entangled, Exhausted, Fatigued, Flat-Footed, Frightened, Immobilized*, Knocked Down, Nauseated, On Fire, Prone, Shaken, Sickened, Slowed, Staggered, Turned.

Any spell/power with a duration lasting longer than one round, provided you are either being targeted by the spell or are within the spell's radius. Any Spell-Like/Psi-like ability with a duration lasting longer than one round, provided you are either being targeted by the spell-like ability or are within the ability's radius. Any Supernatural ability with a duration lasting longer than one round, provided you are either being targeted by the ability or are within the spell's radius.

Any racial trait currently affecting the initiator (such as Light-Sensitivity or a vampire's weakness to sunlight). The source of this detriment is not removed; only the condition caused by the racial trait. Any extraordinary ability currently affecting the initiator (such as the Frenzy ability of the Frenzied Berserker, or the "Bleeding" ability caused by certain creatures). Any ability hindering the initiator caused by an item (alchemical, mundane, magical, or otherwise), such as a Caltrop wound.

Any effect not listed above is outside of Iron Heart Surge's range of influence. These conditions cannot be removed, even if their source is a spell's effect or similar ability (such as being dazed by a Psionic power, or being affected by a Bard's Fascinate ability).

Additionally, some effects can be reinstated at any point during the rest of the round, after you have initiated Iron Heart surge (for example, a Vampire's weakness to sunlight will reinstate its effects at the end of the Vampire's turn, unless he uses his Move action to exit the sunlight. The move action would be possible immediately after initiating Iron Heart Surge).

In case of Iron Heart Surge affecting a spell or other ability that affects an area (such as the Web spell), the entire effect is ended for everyone involved when Iron Heart Surge resolves.

Stone Dragon
[spoiler]First and foremost: Should we remove that whole "On the ground" restriction? It seems like a Supernatural restriction, and this style is 99% mundane. It also has a lot of restrictions on the stances as-is, so that one seems redundant. It's possible that the Devs intended this style to be Su, like Desert Wind and Shadow Hand, but changed their minds and never fixed it.

I know that's more a fix than errata, but it really looks out of place. Seriously, read the exact text:

Quote
Unlike with other disciplines, adepts of this school rely on an external force-the power of earth and stone-to help power their maneuvers. As a result, Stone Dragon maneuvers can be initiated only if you are in contact with the ground.

Mountain Tombstone Strike is referred to as Tombstone Mountain Strike on the list. Just a typo, but still very stupid editing.[/spoiler]

Tiger Claw
[spoiler][/spoiler]

White Raven
[spoiler][/spoiler]
« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 12:47:47 AM by Sinfire Titan »


[spoiler][/spoiler]

snakeman830

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #64 on: May 22, 2011, 12:40:52 AM »
Can't IHS only remove one thing anyway?

And the limitation on SoRV is stupid, since the minimum IL for the manuver is 17 and thus above the cap.  Remove it or, at the very least, bump it to 250 (as Mass Heal's cap).
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #65 on: May 22, 2011, 12:46:41 AM »
Can't IHS only remove one thing anyway?

True. Fixing post.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Ithamar

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #66 on: May 23, 2011, 03:16:26 PM »
The FAQ actually indicated you can use manuevers while grappling, but not while pinned.  The reason being that to initiate manuevers you must be able to move somewhat (that is in ToB somewhere).  So normal grappling still allows you to move enough to be able to use them, but when pinned your are more or less held immobile.
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #67 on: May 24, 2011, 02:30:16 PM »
Things look like they are coming together here. I like the rewording on SoRV, IHS's text is a little bulky but probably needed. Tombstone Mountain Tombstone Strike's typo is the reason I can't ever remember the name of the strike >.>

Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
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Prime32

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #68 on: May 24, 2011, 03:41:16 PM »
IHS's text is a little bulky but probably needed.
Would bullet points help?




Iron Heart Surge is capable of removing any one of the following conditions each time it is initiated:
  • Blinded, Confused, Dazzled, Deafened, Energy Drained, Entangled, Exhausted, Fatigued, Flat-Footed, Frightened, Immobilized, Knocked Down, Nauseated, On Fire, Prone, Shaken, Sickened, Slowed, Staggered, Turned.
  • Any spell/power, spell-like/psi-like ability or supernatural ability with a duration lasting longer than one round, provided you are either being targeted by the spell or are within the spell's radius.
  • Any racial trait currently affecting the initiator (such as Light Sensitivity or a vampire's weakness to sunlight). The source of this detriment is not removed, only the condition caused by the racial trait.
  • Any extraordinary ability currently affecting the initiator (such as the Frenzy ability of a Frenzied Berserker, or the "Bleeding Wounds" inflicted by certain creatures).
  • Any ability hindering the initiator caused by an item (alchemical, mundane, magical, or otherwise), such as a caltrop wound.
Any effect not listed above is outside of Iron Heart Surge's range of influence. These conditions cannot be removed, even if their source is a spell's effect or similar ability (such as being dazed by a psionic power, or being affected by a bard's Fascinate ability).

Additionally, some effects can be reinstated at any point during the rest of the round, after you have initiated Iron Heart Surge (for example, a vampire's weakness to sunlight will reinstate its effects at the end of the vampire's turn, unless he uses his move action to exit the sunlight. The move action would be possible immediately after initiating Iron Heart Surge).

In case of Iron Heart Surge affecting a spell or other ability that affects an area (such as the web spell), the entire effect is ended for everyone involved when Iron Heart Surge resolves.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 03:44:51 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #69 on: May 25, 2011, 03:59:23 AM »
On Fire isn't a condition. At least not as far as the SRD is concerned.

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #70 on: May 25, 2011, 04:50:04 AM »
On Fire isn't a condition. At least not as far as the SRD is concerned.

I know, it's covered by the Items/Spell section. But I felt like putting that there.


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Dusk Eclipse

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #71 on: May 27, 2011, 03:16:49 PM »
Haven't read the whole tread in detail and I am not sure if it has been discussed; but I think the "A martial initiator begins playing with a level 1 stance" line should be clarified to say if that only matters to level 1 initiators or if it applies to characters dipping into a martial initiator class.

urarenge

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #72 on: May 30, 2011, 04:32:19 PM »
about iron heart surge, these are the guidelines I use in my games


http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142166

Catty Nebulart

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #73 on: May 30, 2011, 05:04:33 PM »
Iron Heart Surge is capable of removing any one of the following conditions each time it is initiated:

I'd like to see a note about some of the effects you usually probably don't want to remove, such as hasted (say you take damage for each spell currently on or something), and I would like to see a note that if you can somehow initiate and have a standard action and still want to while dazed, petrified, charmed etc then IHS can remove those too. This would mostly apply to some of the races with split minds and such but I think there are some feats/powers that let you delay the onset of some of those things, or otherwise let you act normally for a round.

Also I'd like some clarity on if IHS can exempt you from planar effects for a round.
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #74 on: May 30, 2011, 06:52:29 PM »
Iron Heart Surge is capable of removing any one of the following conditions each time it is initiated:

I'd like to see a note about some of the effects you usually probably don't want to remove, such as hasted (say you take damage for each spell currently on or something), and I would like to see a note that if you can somehow initiate and have a standard action and still want to while dazed, petrified, charmed etc then IHS can remove those too. This would mostly apply to some of the races with split minds and such but I think there are some feats/powers that let you delay the onset of some of those things, or otherwise let you act normally for a round.

Also I'd like some clarity on if IHS can exempt you from planar effects for a round.

IHS is selective as-written (you pick one and end it). As for being able to end petrification/dazing and such, only a Dvati could do so in theory (there are problems with this, the foremost being that Dvati is Dragon Mag material and horribly written). You actually have to be able to move your body to initiate a maneuver, so merely having a Schism (or similar effect) up wouldn't be enough to help you.


As for Planar Effects, yeah, we kinda do need to clarify it (since by RAW you can extinguish the Plane of Fire).


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bkdubs123

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #75 on: May 30, 2011, 07:00:51 PM »
Actually, Sinfire, I believe one of the things Catty was making mention of to be a Mad Foam Rager effect. A Barbarian, using Mad Foam Rager could delay a daze/petrify/paralyze effect for 1 turn, and I'd think an Iron Heart Surge in the intermittent time should be able to remove the delayed condition. I believe there are a few other effects like Mad Foam Rager to do similar things.

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #76 on: May 30, 2011, 07:12:40 PM »
Actually, Sinfire, I believe one of the things Catty was making mention of to be a Mad Foam Rager effect. A Barbarian, using Mad Foam Rager could delay a daze/petrify/paralyze effect for 1 turn, and I'd think an Iron Heart Surge in the intermittent time should be able to remove the delayed condition. I believe there are a few other effects like Mad Foam Rager to do similar things.

That is possible. Forgot that feat even existed. I guess it would fall under whatever the source of the Dazing/Petrification/Stunned is.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Catty Nebulart

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #77 on: May 30, 2011, 07:21:15 PM »
Iron Heart Surge is capable of removing any one of the following conditions each time it is initiated:

I'd like to see a note about some of the effects you usually probably don't want to remove, such as hasted (say you take damage for each spell currently on or something), and I would like to see a note that if you can somehow initiate and have a standard action and still want to while dazed, petrified, charmed etc then IHS can remove those too. This would mostly apply to some of the races with split minds and such but I think there are some feats/powers that let you delay the onset of some of those things, or otherwise let you act normally for a round.

IHS is selective as-written (you pick one and end it). As for being able to end petrification/dazing and such, only a Dvati could do so in theory (there are problems with this, the foremost being that Dvati is Dragon Mag material and horribly written). You actually have to be able to move your body to initiate a maneuver, so merely having a Schism (or similar effect) up wouldn't be enough to help you.

bkdubs123 has the right of it. There are a few effects that would let you act even though you shouldn't be able to, but I would have to dig for them. But as a quick example take the sanctified mind ability: Partition Mind. You can act while stunned or dazed. Yet in the errata listed for IHS stunned and dazed are specifically excluded.

Similarly other effects IHS should be able to end (such as Hasted) are also not listed. I don't know why someone would want to IHS away a buff, but it should be a possibility nonetheless.
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #78 on: May 30, 2011, 07:29:21 PM »
Similarly other effects IHS should be able to end (such as Hasted) are also not listed. I don't know why someone would want to IHS away a buff, but it should be a possibility nonetheless.

Those effects usually fall under Spell, Magic Item, or Spell-like Ability.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

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Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #79 on: June 01, 2011, 02:16:53 PM »
As for Planar Effects, yeah, we kinda do need to clarify it (since by RAW you can extinguish the Plane of Fire).
Maybe, I mean the planar of fire is always hot (and high amounts of heat deals fire damage) so it could maybe possible lack a duration.

And if you go with that, Prime's write up works fine even if the planar trait is super natural.

And Sin, you were right on ISH taking up a lot of space. We're kinda bogged down on it >.<
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]