Author Topic: Tome of Battle  (Read 33272 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Jopustopin

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 288
Re: Chapter 1 Errata Discussion
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2011, 09:49:30 PM »
Quote
Per Raw and reinforced for intent by "and a new pair of readied maneuvers is granted to you." you do in fact have 2 maneuvers granted each time you recover.

I do not believe the intent was to gimp the Maneuver Recovery for the Crusader, as evidenced by the last lines stating you get more maneuvers granted.

I also do not believe the intent was to gimp the maneuver recovery for the crusader.  However a very, very strong case can be made that RAW you never get more than two (except if you have the feat extra granted maneuver which specifically states you get one more whenever you recover your maneuvers).  Unfortunately, it appears that the sage inadvertently (or purposefully I suppose) sides with the two maneuver side.

Quote

Sinfire Titan

  • Moderator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 5697
  • You've got one round to give a rat's ass.
    • Email
Re: Chapter 1 Errata Discussion
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2011, 02:47:44 AM »
Quote
Per Raw and reinforced for intent by "and a new pair of readied maneuvers is granted to you." you do in fact have 2 maneuvers granted each time you recover.

I do not believe the intent was to gimp the Maneuver Recovery for the Crusader, as evidenced by the last lines stating you get more maneuvers granted.

I also do not believe the intent was to gimp the maneuver recovery for the crusader.  However a very, very strong case can be made that RAW you never get more than two (except if you have the feat extra granted maneuver which specifically states you get one more whenever you recover your maneuvers).  Unfortunately, it appears that the sage inadvertently (or purposefully I suppose) sides with the two maneuver side.

Quote


It's still strikes me as an oversight. A 20th level Crusader can get up to 5 maneuvers granted at the start of an encounter, but once he hits his Readied limit it resets to 2 instead of 5. A Warblade of the same level burns through maneuvers slower than that, but gets to recover all of them at once without missing out of the fun for that turn.

It's at least intentional with the Swordsage's limited recovery method, as they aren't expected to run out of maneuvers readied at higher levels.


There's just such a huge difference if the Crusader can only recover 2 at a time that it completely changes the class at the mid-high levels.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

RobbyPants

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 7139
Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2011, 09:53:46 AM »
This is why no one listens to the sage. :p
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Sinfire Titan

  • Moderator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 5697
  • You've got one round to give a rat's ass.
    • Email
Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2011, 04:03:24 PM »
Are we largely in agreement on Chapter 1's changes? If so, I'll begin work on compiling the changes.



Chapter 2

  • Clarify Adaptive Style's wording so it either does or does not recover the maneuvers.
  • Reword Snap Kick so it doesn't produce infinite attacks.
  • Distant Horizon references Falling Sun attack, but does not utilize it. Suggesting removing that requirement, as it requires either multiclassing or a BAB of +8 (something none of the other tactical feats require).
  • Gloom Razor implies that other opponents can still see you when using Lingering Gloom. Clarify wording either for or against this.
  • Perfect Clarity of Mind and Body requires Unnerving Calm, but it's Press the Advantage option requires an Intimidate check. Potentially change this to Concentration to mimic the requisite feat.
  • Scorching Sirocco requires a Spellcraft check, but Spellcraft is not a class skill for any of the Martial Adepts. Change to Tumble, the Desert Wind skill.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2355
  • I'll kill you before you're born.
Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2011, 06:22:57 PM »
Are we largely in agreement on Chapter 1's changes? If so, I'll begin work on compiling the changes.
No one hit a sore spot yet. :)

  • Clarify Adaptive Style's wording so it either does or does not recover the maneuvers.
Note: Raw, Intent (see normal 5 min reset likeness), & Sage agree yes.
Observation: I realize Adaptive Style is an absolute must for a Swordsage, but no more than Wild Shape to a Druid.

  • Reword Snap Kick so it doesn't produce infinite attacks.
Suggestion: Add something like, "When you make a melee attack (including a standard attack, full attack, or even a strike maneuver but not individual attacks such as an off hand attack), you can make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus."

  • Distant Horizon references Falling Sun attack, but does not utilize it. Suggesting removing that requirement, as it requires either multiclassing or a BAB of +8 (something none of the other tactical feats require).
Observation: Some metamagics require another metamagic feat but don't make use of it and Cleave's requirement of Power Attack is based on this idea of extra effort and nothing else. Falling Sun is basically a Ninja in theme, how does a nerve strike (lasting weak spot) not synergism with Stunning Fist, rapid throwing, and a counter charge (perhaps the 5 inch punch?) be so off the wall that One Last Strike's opposition of Devoted Bulwark goes unnoticed? At least the Passive Way Monk is ideal for a Setting Sun user.

  • Gloom Razor implies that other opponents can still see you when using Lingering Gloom. Clarify wording either for or against this.
Observation: Concealment != Total Concealment. They can still see you prior to use of this feat. The benefit of an invisibility spell would suggest they don't after words. The use of invisibility rather than just sticking to the results of the free hide check is a bigger weakness than benefit as Invisibility Spells are bypassed by See Invisibility and True Seeing which do nothing against a normal successful hide check. The flavor of Ki based even makes this 'flaw' follow the idea.

  • Perfect Clarity of Mind and Body requires Unnerving Calm, but it's Press the Advantage option requires an Intimidate check. Potentially change this to Concentration to mimic the requisite feat.
Quite willing to take opinions on this one.

  • Scorching Sirocco requires a Spellcraft check, but Spellcraft is not a class skill for any of the Martial Adepts. Change to Tumble, the Desert Wind skill.
Except for the Jade Phoenix Mage who happens to be Desert Wind and very Fire focused you mean.
Err. Observation: A JPM's Desert Strike would set up both Empowering Strike & Mark of Fire. Round 2 you bake them with a spell completing the requirements for the tactical maneuver.
[/list]

Further note on Scorching Sirocco & Distant Horizon. I see nothing wrong with a feat that has greater use if you multi-classed. In fact, more feats like that should have been printed. These two ToB's multiclass feats are simple tactical in nature which is something new (and remains unique?) as well.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Sinfire Titan

  • Moderator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 5697
  • You've got one round to give a rat's ass.
    • Email
Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2011, 06:56:33 PM »

    Note: Raw, Intent (see normal 5 min reset likeness), & Sage agree yes.
    Observation: I realize Adaptive Style is an absolute must for a Swordsage, but no more than Wild Shape to a Druid.
I'm for AS being an alternative recovery mechanic myself.

Quote
Suggestion: Add something like, "When you make a melee attack (including a standard attack, full attack, or even a strike maneuver but not individual attacks such as an off hand attack), you can make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus."

That could work. Personal suggestion:

Quote
Whenever you initiate a strike or use the attack or full attack action, you may take a -2 penalty to attacks made this round gain an additional attack at your highest attack bonus (the -2 applies to this attack as well). This attack is an off-hand unarmed strike, and deals damage as appropriate.

Quote
Observation: Some metamagics require another metamagic feat but don't make use of it and Cleave's requirement of Power Attack is based on this idea of extra effort and nothing else. Falling Sun is basically a Ninja in theme, how does a nerve strike (lasting weak spot) not synergism with Stunning Fist, rapid throwing, and a counter charge (perhaps the 5 inch punch?) be so off the wall that One Last Strike's opposition of Devoted Bulwark goes unnoticed? At least the Passive Way Monk is ideal for a Setting Sun user.

Its just that it breaks the trend the other Tactical feats follow: It requires you to multiclass or requires a feat with a +8 BAB requirement. I feel that this is out of place.

Quote
Observation: Concealment != Total Concealment. They can still see you prior to use of this feat. The benefit of an invisibility spell would suggest they don't after words. The use of invisibility rather than just sticking to the results of the free hide check is a bigger weakness than benefit as Invisibility Spells are bypassed by See Invisibility and True Seeing which do nothing against a normal successful hide check. The flavor of Ki based even makes this 'flaw' follow the idea.

I think you misunderstand me. The feat turns you invisible to the opponent you had concealment against, but other opponents can still see you.

Quote
Except for the Jade Phoenix Mage who happens to be Desert Wind and very Fire focused you mean.
Err. Observation: A JPM's Desert Strike would set up both Empowering Strike & Mark of Fire. Round 2 you bake them with a spell completing the requirements for the tactical maneuver.

JPM doesn't get Spellcraft as a class skill either (will be addressing this later).

Quote
Further note on Scorching Sirocco & Distant Horizon. I see nothing wrong with a feat that has greater use if you multi-classed. In fact, more feats like that should have been printed. These two ToB's multiclass feats are simple tactical in nature which is something new (and remains unique?) as well.

While I agree that there's nothing wrong with tactical feats that require you to multiclass, the tactical feats presented in the Bo9S seem to imply that they are tactical feats designed for the nine styles, not for multiclassing Martial Adepts. For this reason, I would like more opinions on those two feats in particular.[/list]


[spoiler][/spoiler]

RobbyPants

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 7139
Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2011, 09:50:44 AM »
Whenever you initiate a strike or use the attack or full attack action, you may take a -2 penalty to attacks made this round gain an additional attack at your highest attack bonus (the -2 applies to this attack as well). This attack is an off-hand unarmed strike, and deals damage as appropriate.
I like this wording.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2355
  • I'll kill you before you're born.
Re: Tome of Battle
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2011, 11:35:19 AM »
    That could work. Personal suggestion:
    Quote
    Whenever you initiate a strike or use the attack or full attack action, you may take a -2 penalty to attacks made this round gain an additional attack at your highest attack bonus (the -2 applies to this attack as well). This attack is an off-hand unarmed strike, and deals damage as appropriate.
    Are you aiming to remove the ability to use Snap Kick on things like AoO's and other granted free attacks (such as Snakes Swiftness)?

    Its just that it breaks the trend the other Tactical feats follow: It requires you to multiclass or requires a feat with a +8 BAB requirement. I feel that this is out of place.
    It is out of place, but this isn't magic and not everything is a neat little cycle written by intelligent people.

    I think you misunderstand me. The feat turns you invisible to the opponent you had concealment against, but other opponents can still see you.
    And the problem?

    JPM doesn't get Spellcraft as a class skill either (will be addressing this later).
    Good.

    Quote
    Further note on Scorching Sirocco & Distant Horizon. I see nothing wrong with a feat that has greater use if you multi-classed. In fact, more feats like that should have been printed. These two ToB's multiclass feats are simple tactical in nature which is something new (and remains unique?) as well.

    While I agree that there's nothing wrong with tactical feats that require you to multiclass, the tactical feats presented in the Bo9S seem to imply that they are tactical feats designed for the nine styles, not for multiclassing Martial Adepts. For this reason, I would like more opinions on those two feats in particular.[/list]We're not even talking about one odd man out of a long list. We're talking about two out of nine in one section. Divine Spirit, Instant Clarity, Psychic Renewal, Shadow Trickster, and Song of The White Raven are all multiclass based feats printed right before the feats you call into question.

    Martial Study & Martial Stance are all about nonmartial classes picking up feats btw. Did you know as Distant Horizon is written a 6th level pure monk can take it? Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, then take Martial Study at 1st & 3rd level. Cool benefit is a 6th level Monk can pick up Improved Trip (skipping Combat Expertise). And when you stop and look at the other tactical feats like this. Were they ever really written exclusively for martial classes? For instance, they all require two maneuvers and you to be 6th level, two maneuvers is something a martial class meets at the 1st level. Further of the tactical feats, only one of them ever requires you to actually use a maneuver (mark of fire). Lastly, recall how your initiator level as a nonmartial class? How about maneuver granting items? The chapter on introducing maneuvers to nontob based worlds that highlights those two things and the previously mentioned feats? ToB is the least dedicated to it's own system book ever written and tossed the concept of selfish unsharing out the window. And you sure your idea these two feats should be martial adapt exclusive has any foundation to begin with?
    Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
    [spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
    6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
    5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
    4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
    3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
    2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
    1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
    0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
    [/spoiler]

    Sinfire Titan

    • Moderator
    • Organ Grinder
    • *
    • Posts: 5697
    • You've got one round to give a rat's ass.
      • Email
    Re: Tome of Battle
    « Reply #28 on: May 13, 2011, 07:42:49 PM »
    Are you aiming to remove the ability to use Snap Kick on things like AoO's and other granted free attacks (such as Snakes Swiftness)?

    I simply forgot it could be used on AoOs. The problem with letting it stack with stuff like Snake's Swiftness is that it becomes more complex to word it without letting it trigger off of itself.

    Quote
    And the problem?

    Nothing really. I just wanted to make the wording more clear so players don't get that mixed up.

    Quote
    We're not even talking about one odd man out of a long list. We're talking about two out of nine in one section. Divine Spirit, Instant Clarity, Psychic Renewal, Shadow Trickster, and Song of The White Raven are all multiclass based feats printed right before the feats you call into question.

    The point I'm trying to make is that I feel the Tactical feats should follow the same formula. Both SS and DH are Swordsage-exclusive feats, but a pure-swordsage cannot make efficient use of them.

    As for SS' Spellcraft check, the FAQ and the Sage have both said it was an error, IIRC.

    Quote
    Martial Study & Martial Stance are all about nonmartial classes picking up feats btw. Did you know as Distant Horizon is written a 6th level pure monk can take it? Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, then take Martial Study at 1st & 3rd level. Cool benefit is a 6th level Monk can pick up Improved Trip (skipping Combat Expertise). And when you stop and look at the other tactical feats like this. Were they ever really written exclusively for martial classes? For instance, they all require two maneuvers and you to be 6th level, two maneuvers is something a martial class meets at the 1st level. Further of the tactical feats, only one of them ever requires you to actually use a maneuver (mark of fire). Lastly, recall how your initiator level as a nonmartial class? How about maneuver granting items? The chapter on introducing maneuvers to nontob based worlds that highlights those two things and the previously mentioned feats? ToB is the least dedicated to it's own system book ever written and tossed the concept of selfish unsharing out the window. And you sure your idea these two feats should be martial adapt exclusive has any foundation to begin with?

    See above. I just think it is odd that those two feats are the only ones that require levels in a non-Martial Adept class (or a serious investment in two things a Swordsage wouldn't normally invest in).

    To put it another way, take a look at Distant Horizon itself. The only ability a Monk would be interested in is Lasting Weak Spot. The rest of the feat is largely useless to a Monk. Why would they design the feat this way if they intended it to be for a Monk?

    Same thing with Scorching Sirocco. Even assuming it was designed with the JPM in mind, why didn't they make it a prerequisite for the PrC? And why does it use Tumble for two abilities (both of which involve setting someone/something on fire), but not for the third (again, both of the Tumble-based abilities involve setting something on fire, something Tumble should not be physically capable of).


    [spoiler][/spoiler]

    Garryl

    • Hong Kong
    • ****
    • Posts: 1240
    Re: Tome of Battle
    « Reply #29 on: May 13, 2011, 09:16:53 PM »
    The Martial Study and Martial Stance feats can be taken by 1st level non-initiators. Since they have one level and not in an initiating class, their total initiator level is 1/2, rounded down to 0. Table 3-1: Highest-Level Maneuvers Known (page 39) doesn't have anything for 0th level, but it only allows 1st level maneuvers starting at 1st level. This could mean that the maximum level is 0 (thus preventing you from selecting any maneuvers at all with the feat). It could also mean that you don't have a maximum level, thus allowing you to select any maneuver whose prerequisites you meet, but that seems a fair bit further from the intent.

    This is also an issue for chapter 3: Blade Magic, but it's worth mentioning here as well because it only comes up with these feats.
    « Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 09:19:32 PM by Garryl »
    A Guide to Free D&D - A resource of free, official D&D resources on the web.
    General listing of my homebrew.
    Links to things I've worked on
    [spoiler]
    Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round.
    The Opposed Checks Handbook - Under construction.
    Adaptations Handbook - Under construction.
    [/spoiler]

    Sinfire Titan

    • Moderator
    • Organ Grinder
    • *
    • Posts: 5697
    • You've got one round to give a rat's ass.
      • Email
    Re: Tome of Battle
    « Reply #30 on: May 13, 2011, 09:23:27 PM »
    The Martial Study and Martial Stance feats can be taken by 1st level non-initiators. Since they have one level and not in an initiating class, their total initiator level is 1/2, rounded down to 0. Table 3-1: Highest-Level Maneuvers Known (page 39) doesn't have anything for 0th level, but it only allows 1st level maneuvers starting at 1st level. This could mean that the maximum level is 0 (thus preventing you from selecting any maneuvers at all with the feat). It could also mean that you don't have a maximum level, thus allowing you to select any maneuver whose prerequisites you meet, but that seems a fair bit further from the intent.

    This is also an issue for chapter 3: Blade Magic, but it's worth mentioning here as well because it only comes up with these feats.

    I overlooked the Martial Study part.


    Should we put in a "Round up" clause or not?


    [spoiler][/spoiler]

    Garryl

    • Hong Kong
    • ****
    • Posts: 1240
    Re: Tome of Battle
    « Reply #31 on: May 13, 2011, 10:02:51 PM »
    I'd just go with adding "(minimum 1)" to the section in Chapter 3 that talks about your IL if you have no adept levels. Rounding up has more far-reaching consequences, giving an IL one higher than normal at half of a non-initiator's character levels.
    A Guide to Free D&D - A resource of free, official D&D resources on the web.
    General listing of my homebrew.
    Links to things I've worked on
    [spoiler]
    Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round.
    The Opposed Checks Handbook - Under construction.
    Adaptations Handbook - Under construction.
    [/spoiler]

    SorO_Lost

    • Man in Gorilla Suit
    • *****
    • Posts: 2355
    • I'll kill you before you're born.
    Re: Tome of Battle
    « Reply #32 on: May 14, 2011, 12:02:56 AM »
    I simply forgot it could be used on AoOs. The problem with letting it stack with stuff like Snake's Swiftness is that it becomes more complex to word it without letting it trigger off of itself.
    Indeed, but someone has to do it :p

    The point I'm trying to make is that I feel the Tactical feats should follow the same formula. Both SS and DH are Swordsage-exclusive feats, but a pure-swordsage cannot make efficient use of them.
    Personally, I think why not just allow the unarmed SS variant to take Stunning Fist at the 1st level? You're speaking of changing things anyway and those variants need to be defined better. At least the IL to CL issue.

    As for SS' Spellcraft check, the FAQ and the Sage have both said it was an error, IIRC.
    Ahh excellent. Change it to what though?

    I just think it is odd that those two feats are the only ones that require levels in a non-Martial Adept class (or a serious investment in two things a Swordsage wouldn't normally invest in).

    To put it another way, take a look at Distant Horizon itself. The only ability a Monk would be interested in is Lasting Weak Spot. The rest of the feat is largely useless to a Monk. Why would they design the feat this way if they intended it to be for a Monk?
    I think all the feats minus one are a waste to begin with. I also think all but Comet Throw (only one capable of damaging a second foe) and the 9th level Setting Sun maneuver are largely useless to everyone. Those things aside, are we fixing ambiguous rules and preventing stupid interpretation of stuff, or rewriting feats (and classes? spells?).

    Yes using Tumble to create fire in those terms seems dumb, but Fan the Flames (btw never take a name for token value) does seems to suggest that you tumble around them after incinerating them, smoldering embers to fire? Well now that makes sense. Nothing to 'fix' here outside of writing new feats because their theme doesn't seem to match the others printed around it and we're not here doing that as far as I know.

    ***

    I second minimum 1. For virtually everything that 0 creates unintended problems.
    Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
    [spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
    6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
    5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
    4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
    3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
    2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
    1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
    0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
    [/spoiler]

    Sinfire Titan

    • Moderator
    • Organ Grinder
    • *
    • Posts: 5697
    • You've got one round to give a rat's ass.
      • Email
    Re: Tome of Battle
    « Reply #33 on: May 14, 2011, 01:35:40 AM »
    Personally, I think why not just allow the unarmed SS variant to take Stunning Fist at the 1st level? You're speaking of changing things anyway and those variants need to be defined better. At least the IL to CL issue.

    Well, that's more of a house rule than errata (and yes, I know what we are doing is technically a house rule).

    Quote
    Ahh excellent. Change it to what though?

    Tumble, to keep it in line with the style and the rest of the feat.

    Quote
    I think all the feats minus one are a waste to begin with. I also think all but Comet Throw (only one capable of damaging a second foe) and the 9th level Setting Sun maneuver are largely useless to everyone. Those things aside, are we fixing ambiguous rules and preventing stupid interpretation of stuff, or rewriting feats (and classes? spells?).

    We rewrite the ones that absolutely cannot work as written, but otherwise all we are doing is clarifying. This isn't an attempt at fixing the book; it's an attempt at finishing what WotC started.


    [spoiler][/spoiler]

    Sinfire Titan

    • Moderator
    • Organ Grinder
    • *
    • Posts: 5697
    • You've got one round to give a rat's ass.
      • Email
    The Can of Worms: Maneuver Errata
    « Reply #34 on: May 15, 2011, 01:21:38 AM »
    Let's keep this thing moving. If we slow down, then it gets dropped and we'll never get anything accomplished.

    Desert Wind
    [spoiler]Death Mark: Remove the "See Text" line in the Saving Throw, as there's nothing in the text indicating something could be denied a save.

    Firesnake: Delete the last two sentences of the text (as stated in the official "errata"). We need to debate what the second paragraph needs to say, seeing as that's where the errata cuts off.

    Ring of Fire: Include a clause about the initiator being immune to the effects of this strike, as its very easy to enclose yourself by accident.

    Rising Phoenix: Fix the wording so you can hover away from shorelines (as written, you can't go more than 10ft out on a lake or other body of water).[/spoiler]

    Devoted Spirit
    [spoiler]Aura of Chaos: Should we fix the stance so the d2 Crusader doesn't work?

    Aura of Triumph: Change "both" to "each", so it affects every ally and yourself, not just two characters.

    Castigating Strike: Change it so multiple uses don't stack (it's implied because it is the same source, but clarifying that prevents mis-interpretations).

    Crusader's Strike: Should we mess with this? Like, at all? I'm personally for infinite out-of-combat healing, but I know it's a sore-spot for less-experienced DMs. Additionally, should this have the Su tag or not (I'm against it, but there's people out there who think it should).

    Divine Surge and Greater: Should we swap the base damage dice on these two? It seems very odd that the greater version does 2 less dice worth.

    Immortal Fortitude: Should we include a clause about Disintegrate? As is, it's up to the DM if the stance can protect you from it or not, and it would be helpful to include such a clause.

    Rallying Strike: See Crusader's Strike.

    Revitalizing Strike: See Crusader's Strike.

    Strike of Righteous Vitality: Should we just change the wording to copy most of Heal outright? Should we remove the cap, so a 20th level Crusader heals up to 200 points of damage? Should we add the Su tag, since it copies a spell's effect?

    Thicket of Blades: Should we include a Tumble clause, as the FAQ and Sage have stated?

    Vanguard Strike: SHould there be a range limit on this? As-written, allies hundreds of miles away get the bonus, which seems rather stupid. I think 30ft or 60ft would be fine.[/spoiler]

    Diamond Mind
    [spoiler]Action Before Thought: It needs the "You may still fail the save if your Concentration check's results are lower than the save DC". It really doesn't matter, but it is for consistency's sake.

    Disrupting Blow: It seems to neglect that Immediate actions are actions, and the wording is a little confusing as a result.

    Insightful Strike and Greater: Should there be a clause about Criticals?

    Mind over Body: See Action Before Thought.

    Moment of Perfect Mind: See Action Before Thought.[/spoiler]

    Iron Heart
    [spoiler]Absolute Steel: It needs the same clause that Skirmish/Desert Wind Dodge have.

    Dazing Strike: It says Fortitude partial, but has no additional effects if they make the save. I know making the save doesn't negate the damage you dealt to them, but it needs new wording.

    Iron Heart Surge: We may need to make a separate thread for this, but it NEEDS clarification.[/spoiler]

    Setting SunShadow Hand
    [spoiler]Bloodletting Strike: Supernatural or not? It's understandable either way.

    Child of Shadow: Delete the words "Melee" and "Ranged". It applies to any attack, so why bother differentiating?

    Dance of the Spider: Clarify the second-to-last sentence, because it's just worded stupidly. And Supernatural tag needed (seriously).

    Death in the Dark: See Bloodletting Strike.

    Drain Vitality: See Bloodletting Strike.

    Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike: As the actual errata says: Delete the duration.

    Hand of Death: See Bloodletting Strike. Stronger argument for being Su, as this involves Ki by the fluff (even if it is mutable).

    One With Shadow: OK, how the fuck does this NOT have the Su clause?

    Shadow Blink/Jaunt/Stride: See Bloodletting Strike.

    Step of the Dancing Moth: See Bloodletting Strike. Seriously, WTF were the editors thinking?[/spoiler]

    Stone Dragon
    [spoiler]First and foremost: Should we remove that whole "On the ground" restriction? It seems like a Supernatural restriction, and this style is 99% mundane. It also has a lot of restrictions on the stances as-is, so that one seems redundant. It's possible that the Devs intended this style to be Su, like Desert Wind and Shadow Hand, but changed their minds and never fixed it.

    I know that's more a fix than errata, but it really looks out of place.

    [/spoiler]

    Tiger Claw
    [spoiler][/spoiler]

    White Raven
    [spoiler][/spoiler]


    More to come.
    « Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 05:10:03 PM by Sinfire Titan »


    [spoiler][/spoiler]

    Garryl

    • Hong Kong
    • ****
    • Posts: 1240
    Re: Tome of Battle
    « Reply #35 on: May 15, 2011, 01:54:19 AM »
    A few concerns about Chapter 3: Blade Magic. I only combed through the first half of the chapter (up to about page 40), the rest I just perused.

    Page 38
    Readying Maneuvers
    -   "It is possible for a character to gain the Martial Study feat before entering a class that grants a progression for powers readied." should say "maneuvers readied" instead of "powers readied"

    Page 39
    Initiator Level
    -   "...(if you haven't already traded them out for higher-level stances, as described in the martial adept class descriptions...)" should say "higher-level maneuvers" instead of "higher-level stances"

    Table 3-1: Highest-Level Maneuvers Known
    -   Line 7: "13th-4th         7th" should say "13th-14th" instead of "13th-4th"
    -   Does not account for 0th level initiators, as can be the case for 1st level characters without levels in initiating classes. Starting access to 1st level maneuvers at IL 0 or lower (instead of IL 1) is an even smaller change than adding "minimum 1" to a character's IL, but solves the problem as well or better.


    Miscellaneous Concerns
    -   It is possible for a character to have more maneuvers readied than known. What happens then? (See the Idiot Crusader build, type 1. Multiclassed martial adept with PrCs.)
    -   It is possible for a character to know more maneuvers than are available for him to learn. What happens then? (See the Idiot Crusader build, type 2. Multiclassed martial adept with Crusader 1 having fewer learn-able Crusader maneuvers than the normal known. Note that this is predicated on the ruling that a character can learn a given maneuver or stance only once.)
    -   Can a maneuver be learned multiple times? Can it be learned multiple times across multiple classes?
    A Guide to Free D&D - A resource of free, official D&D resources on the web.
    General listing of my homebrew.
    Links to things I've worked on
    [spoiler]
    Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round.
    The Opposed Checks Handbook - Under construction.
    Adaptations Handbook - Under construction.
    [/spoiler]

    SorO_Lost

    • Man in Gorilla Suit
    • *****
    • Posts: 2355
    • I'll kill you before you're born.
    Re: The Can of Worms: Maneuver Errata
    « Reply #36 on: May 15, 2011, 03:02:04 AM »
    Let's keep this thing moving. If we slow down, then it gets dropped and we'll never get anything accomplished.
    Good  luck there, we've hit our first hang up.

    Firesnake: Simple deletion. the last two lines are the snake's inability to fly and it being penalized for terrain.

    Ring of Fire: *shrugs*

    Rising Phoenix: It states ABOVE a solid of liquid surface, not sure how you came up with moving laterally breaks the range. Either you misread it or gravity works differently where you live. In which case, pics or it didn't happen. Eer I mean "down" is always defined as the way you fall (see planar handbook I think).

    Aura of Chaos: idk, TO material is TO?

    Aura of Triumph: You bring up nerfing d2 abuse then suggest healing a world's worth of halfings... >.>
    I say keep it as is.

    Castigating Strike: Aye, clarify stacking only rests the duration for the attack penalty.

    Crusader's Strike: It's fine as written (Ex based) to me.

    Divine Surge and Greater: Seconded for swapping at this point. If 8d8 is 'normal' for a 4th level strike then my lack of sleep is getting to me. Which is also the whole lack of suggestion tags this go. I'm feeling lazy.

    Immortal Fortitude: Initial text states, you cannot be killed by anything that reduces your HP blah blah blah. Further rules elaborating on that don't actually contradict that statement. Further Disintegrate's to dust effect requires the target to drop to 0 HP, something a successful save would have prevented anyway.

    Strike of Righteous Vitality: And here is the hang up I mentioned. I personally think anyone who says X granting Y change's Y's nature should stfu. SoRV gives the benefit of a spell cast by a spellcaster, RAW the damn benefit is spell based - get over it. Backed by intent (no specifically dispelling ex abilities granted by polymorph/wild shape) and examples (mental pinnacle) just becuase the source granting the ability isn't of the same type; the granted ability still keeps it's type. There was a huge aurgument from one of our local trolls claiming otherwise with nothing but his opinion. Likely he'll post in here soon.

    Thicket of Blades: Sure.

    Vanguard Strike: I'd go with 30ft., relative to the target hit. Just because 30ft. happens to be the same range that precision damage requires.

    Action Before Thought: lol, if you think it needs it *shrugs*.

    Disrupting Blow: To me it brings up Immediate Actions due to allowing AoOs (which are not an immediate action, but behave like one). Sentence revision is needed.

    Insightful Strike and Greater: Criticals stack their multiplier like all others are stacked is logical.

    Absolute Steel: It needs the same clause that Skirmish/Desert Wind Dodge have.
    Which is?

    Dazing Strike: Fortitude partial is accurate, a fort save prevents dazed but not the damage. See also Finger of Death.

    Iron Heart Surge: Think people are really going to sit down and claim you can end the sun with this? *shrugs*.
    Make it just in case, what harm could it do?

    All of the throwing maneuvers: Super ninjas throw people no matter their size. Like the famous roll backwards with a foot to the stomach throw. Inside the 4th wall, you can't trip a colossal creature because you can't reach both of it's feet. and while we're inside it, if you physically out powered someone, knew martial arts, and planned on knocking them off balance, should you auto fail? Rule wise alone, dunno.

    Clever Positioning: *yawn* I need sleep I think. What was this one again?

    Feigned Opening: Probably not. See part about you provoking an AoO? Can you name a way to provoke an AoO when it's not your turn without using your one and only immediate action? And if so, that 1%er there, is it really worth changing the rules to deal with it?

    Shifting Defense: It can be hardly be misinterpreted that this stance's ability requires an immediate action to use. Clarify it just in case.

    Strike of the Broken Shield: The errata made it that far? Cool.

    ok stopping for nap time.
    Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
    [spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
    6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
    5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
    4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
    3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
    2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
    1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
    0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
    [/spoiler]

    Sinfire Titan

    • Moderator
    • Organ Grinder
    • *
    • Posts: 5697
    • You've got one round to give a rat's ass.
      • Email
    Re: Tome of Battle
    « Reply #37 on: May 15, 2011, 03:19:58 AM »
    A few concerns about Chapter 3: Blade Magic. I only combed through the first half of the chapter (up to about page 40), the rest I just perused.

    Page 38
    Readying Maneuvers
    -   "It is possible for a character to gain the Martial Study feat before entering a class that grants a progression for powers readied." should say "maneuvers readied" instead of "powers readied"

    Page 39
    Initiator Level
    -   "...(if you haven't already traded them out for higher-level stances, as described in the martial adept class descriptions...)" should say "higher-level maneuvers" instead of "higher-level stances"

    Table 3-1: Highest-Level Maneuvers Known
    -   Line 7: "13th-4th         7th" should say "13th-14th" instead of "13th-4th"
    -   Does not account for 0th level initiators, as can be the case for 1st level characters without levels in initiating classes. Starting access to 1st level maneuvers at IL 0 or lower (instead of IL 1) is an even smaller change than adding "minimum 1" to a character's IL, but solves the problem as well or better.


    Miscellaneous Concerns
    -   It is possible for a character to have more maneuvers readied than known. What happens then? (See the Idiot Crusader build, type 1. Multiclassed martial adept with PrCs.)
    -   It is possible for a character to know more maneuvers than are available for him to learn. What happens then? (See the Idiot Crusader build, type 2. Multiclassed martial adept with Crusader 1 having fewer learn-able Crusader maneuvers than the normal known. Note that this is predicated on the ruling that a character can learn a given maneuver or stance only once.)
    -   Can a maneuver be learned multiple times? Can it be learned multiple times across multiple classes?

    You bring up good points. I really didn't pay attention to that chapter as I wasn't familiar with things like the Idiot Crusader.


    As for that last point you made: The sage has ruled against that. Makes sense.
    Firesnake: Simple deletion. the last two lines are the snake's inability to fly and it being penalized for terrain.

    The editors seemed to have something planned for the errata, but I'm fine with just deleting the last two lines.

    Quote
    Rising Phoenix: It states ABOVE a solid of liquid surface, not sure how you came up with moving laterally breaks the range. Either you misread it or gravity works differently where you live. In which case, pics or it didn't happen. Eer I mean "down" is always defined as the way you fall (see planar handbook I think).

    Except that it is possible to be more than 10ft away from the ground if you try to cross a lake. I dunno, I'm just being picky here.

    Quote
    Aura of Chaos: idk, TO material is TO?

    I view TO as a thing to avoid when designing something.

    Quote
    Aura of Triumph: You bring up nerfing d2 abuse then suggest healing a world's worth of halfings... >.>
    I say keep it as is.

    Except as-is, it fluctuates between healing two characters or you and all allies in 30ft. There's a distinct difference between this and the d2 Crusader. One is clearly stupid, and the other is possibly intentional.

    Quote
    Strike of Righteous Vitality: And here is the hang up I mentioned. I personally think anyone who says X granting Y change's Y's nature should stfu. SoRV gives the benefit of a spell cast by a spellcaster, RAW the damn benefit is spell based - get over it. Backed by intent (no specifically dispelling ex abilities granted by polymorph/wild shape) and examples (mental pinnacle) just becuase the source granting the ability isn't of the same type; the granted ability still keeps it's type. There was a huge aurgument from one of our local trolls claiming otherwise with nothing but his opinion. Likely he'll post in here soon.

    That's the kind of thing errata should make clear. Personally, I'd like to reword it and remove the level cap on it.

    But I agree that it is Ex, just for the record.

    Quote
    Which is?

    10ft away from where you started the turn.

    Quote
    Iron Heart Surge: Think people are really going to sit down and claim you can end the sun with this? *shrugs*.
    Make it just in case, what harm could it do?

    Well, the thing is people will be expecting this to get errata'ed and at minimum clarified on what it can and can't remove. If we leave it as-is, it makes it look like we aren't trying. If we do errata it, and people don't agree with our discussion, then they will just house rule it. Not that they all ready aren't doing that, but it would be nice to have the House Rules on the same page in regards to IHS.

    Quote
    All of the throwing maneuvers: Super ninjas throw people no matter their size. Like the famous roll backwards with a foot to the stomach throw. Inside the 4th wall, you can't trip a colossal creature because you can't reach both of it's feet. and while we're inside it, if you physically out powered someone, knew martial arts, and planned on knocking them off balance, should you auto fail? Rule wise alone, dunno.

    Well, being a Negima fan means I'm partial towards letting Setting Sun adepts throw things eight times their height.

    Quote
    Clever Positioning: *yawn* I need sleep I think. What was this one again?

    Lets you switch places with the target.

    Quote
    Feigned Opening: Probably not. See part about you provoking an AoO? Can you name a way to provoke an AoO when it's not your turn without using your one and only immediate action? And if so, that 1%er there, is it really worth changing the rules to deal with it?

    Well, there are, but they are rare (Evasive Reflexes+Thicket of Blades for starters).

    Quote
    Shifting Defense: It can be hardly be misinterpreted that this stance's ability requires an immediate action to use. Clarify it just in case.

    There is someone out there who thinks a Monk is playable with 15PB. I'm not putting it past Humanity to misinterpret that stance.


    [spoiler][/spoiler]

    Garryl

    • Hong Kong
    • ****
    • Posts: 1240
    Re: Tome of Battle
    « Reply #38 on: May 15, 2011, 04:46:37 AM »
    The Idiot Crusader is a build I invented (I like to think of it as my CO thesis). It works by having a Crusader with more maneuvers readied than maneuvers known such that he refreshes his maneuvers for free every round. It dips into areas that the rules don't cover, but the rules are general enough that I think it actually works (maybe, new developments have made me rethink some parts of it). In any case, you can read more about the Type 1 version here. I never wrote up details of Type 2 anywhere, and I think it was actually Amechra who discovered it while making a character for a PbP game. In any case, I can give you the full details if you want.

    Desert Wind
    [spoiler]
    Burning Brand - Should clarify that the fire damage is in place of your normal melee damage, not in addition to it. Should clarify other sources of damage to the attack (such as the energy damage from a frost or shock weapon) are also converted to fire damage.

    Desert Tempest - Your attacks occur in response to the same event that provokes an attack of opportunity. It should clarify whether your attacks come before or after the AoO is resolved.

    Distracting Ember - Should specify an unoccupied space within range, rather than just any space. Alternatively, any space the elemental can occupy (since it may be able to share a space with larger creatures). This is important since unlike the Summon Monster line of spells, this maneuver does not inherit the usual summoning criteria from the Summoning subschool. We should check that to see what else may need to be specified about the summoning.

    Flashing Sun - Should specify that the extra melee attack should come during the maneuver (as opposed to just any time you feel like during the round, such as not even during your turn).

    Hatchling's Flame - Save DC is undefined. Should be DC 12 + Wis mod.

    Holocaust Cloak - Probably doesn't need to be changed, but it winds up with the weird situation where an adjacent opponent hitting you with a spiked chain doesn't take damage (since the chain is also a reach weapon). I just thought I'd mention it.

    Inferno Blast - Save DC is undefined. Should be DC 19 + Wis mod.

    Rising Pheonix - Clarify that it must be a (roughly) horizontal surface? It allows you to fly near walls and ceilings (they are surfaces too). The other issues can be fixed by explaining that a solid or liquid surface it what this stance refers to by saying "ground."

    Salamander Charge - Specify that you are not damaged by your own Salamander Charge's fire wall.

    Searing Blade - As previously mentioned, initiation action should be a swift action, not a standard action.

    Zephyr Dance - Clarify that improving your AC after the attack roll has been resolved may cause it to miss.
    [/spoiler]

    Devoted Spirit
    [spoiler]
    Note: Unlike the aligned charges, the aligned Aura stances don't have alignment prerequisites, despite having alignment descriptors. Just thought I'd mention it.

    Aura of Chaos - Add "You may..." in front of "... reroll each such die and add its result to the original damage total" to prevent arguments about d2 Crusaders and infinite loops in the metagame.

    Aura of Triumph - As written, you select the ally to pair with for healing when you initiate the stance (note the targeting line). Might want to either clarify that (and thus that you can reselect the ally by reinitiating the stance as a swift action) or changing it to something more general, since a single ally healing 4 (and 4 to you) isn't that much for a 6th level stance. On the other hand, since you can be evil and take this, Aura of Triumph does happen to be an indisputable method of "free" out of combat healing (Martial Spirit has that annoying clause about switching allies for healing whenever you hit an opponent).

    Immortal Fortitude - Should specify that only the saving throws granted by the stance count towards the three saves before it ends, and possibly that you can refresh it as a swift action even if it's already active. Some clarification on the interactions with Disintegrate would be helpful, since by the wording of the stance you drop to negative HP for a moment before returning to 1 HP, but since Disintegrate deals HP danage it can't kill or incapacitate you and remain alive an conscious with 1 hp remaining. Immortal Fortitude should probably win out, but it's not as clear as it could be.

    Thicket of Blades - Interaction with effects that prevent AoOs from being provoked due to movement should be clarified (including Tumble). I think Thicket of Blades would win over most of those, but it's about as clear as mud at best and really, I'm just guessing with a pinch of wishful thinking.
    [/spoiler]

    Diamond Mind
    [spoiler]
    Disrupting Blow - Formatting issue: Duration should be immediately before Saving Throw, not after.
    [/spoiler]

    Iron Heart
    [spoiler]
    Absolute Steel - While it is inconsistent with similar abilities, I don't think that is enough to warrant changing this stance's functionality. However, for clarity's sake, I agree with adding "from your original position" to the line about 10 feet of movement, or a similar clarification on what 10 feet of movement actually involves (or doesn't involve).

    Dazing Strike - Uses the Fort Partial save to indicate that only the dazing is negated, not the melee damage. It should probably use Disrupting Blow's text (DM 5) and that of similar strikes with saves instead for consistency, but that's not really important.

    Exorcism of Steel - Should clarify that the opponent suffers the damage penalty, not the weapon (so the opponent changing weapons still suffers the penalty). Should clarify that the weapon attack is a sunder attempt.

    Iron Heart Surge - Needs clarifications on what constitutes an effect or condition affecting you.

    Lightning Recovery - For consistency and clarity, should specify that you must keep the result of the reroll, even if it's worse than the original.

    Lightning Throw - Should clarify how the weapon returns to you (and possibly what can stop it, like a Returning weapon; see also page 102, Sidebar: Stopping a Returning Weapon), and also what happens to it until then (such as where it lands and what happens to it if it's one of those weapons that are destroyed when thrown, like shuriken, although shuriken aren't applicable since you still need to make a melee attack).
    [/spoiler]


    That's all I have for the first 4 disciplines. I'll see about doing the remaining five later.
    A Guide to Free D&D - A resource of free, official D&D resources on the web.
    General listing of my homebrew.
    Links to things I've worked on
    [spoiler]
    Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round.
    The Opposed Checks Handbook - Under construction.
    Adaptations Handbook - Under construction.
    [/spoiler]

    Solo

    • Organ Grinder
    • *****
    • Posts: 2684
    • Solo the Sorcelator, at your service
    Re: Tome of Battle
    « Reply #39 on: May 15, 2011, 04:48:27 AM »
    There is someone out there who thinks a Monk is playable with 15PB. I'm not putting it past Humanity to misinterpret that stance.
    It's playable, in that you are physically capable of playing one, it's just not useful or survivable. :p

    "I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

    The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.